RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: nelwild on Wednesday 15 December 10 23:22 GMT (UK)
-
Hello,
im trying to establish the identity of this lady,but the census entries are really confusing.
The 1851 says this:
Stephen Loveridge b1820 Toweden
Silvester THORP b 1822 Wicken,Essex.
then five children all with the surname Loveridge.
also there is a Councillette Thorp born 1798,Great Marden.Councillette also being a first name of one of Silvesters children.
clas HO107 piece 1786 folio 434 page 15
the 1861 has this:
Stephen Loveridge born 1809
Silvester SHAW born 1819 Wick.
then a total of 10 children,including some of the previous,all using surname Shaw.
also there is Dinah Shaw born 1781 mother.
clas RG9 piece 1121 folio 25 page 43
one of the children,Christiana born 1847,married Thomas Flack in Chelmsford using Shaw.
Another child,Councillette born 1845 was the partner of a horse dealer called James Pain.No marriage found.
From this,please can anyone tell me whether Silvester was Shaw or Thorp,and where Stephen Loveridge fits in.Shes down as unmarried on the census.
Thanks,
Nel.
-
Hi Nel
I think the answers you're looking for are in a letter written by Ambrose Thorpe to the Gypsiologist the Reverend George Hall in November 1910. The original is held in the Gypsy Collections at the University of Liverpool.
In this Ambrose gives an account of his family tree. He includes the following information:
- His father's grandfather was Fowlk Gray
- Fowlk had a large family that included Diney or Dinah Gray
- Dinah Gray married Great Jim Shaw
- They had four daughters: Suttey who married Stephen Loveridge and had a large family; Counselletty who married Jasper Shaw; Sinfie who married Jonas Shaw; and Achorn who married James Andrews
.................
Ambrose also said that he didn't know the name of Fowlk Gray's wife. But in a couple of baptisms I've seen for Fow(l)k's children, their mother's name is given as Mary. She may be a Thorpe.
So to tie all that together: in 1851 Silvester (Suttey) is using her maternal grandmother's surname Thorp/e (possibly also the name that her mother Dinah Gray – and her aunt Councillette – are sometimes known by).
In 1861, Silvester is using her father's surname of Shaw and Dinah is using her 'married' name: Shaw.
You'll note that in 1861, Stephen Loveridge is in a separate household on his own, with Silvester Shaw as head of her own household next door (so to speak) - which is why Dinah is rightfully listed as her mother, as opposed to his.
Incidentally, the Priscilla Welch/Welsh on the same census page in 1861 also has a Shaw connection: she is the partner of Tobias Shaw.
What Ambrose didn't know in 1910 was that Dinah and Jim Shaw had had another daughter called Cresana. She was baptised in Stotfold, Bedfordshire, on 4 October 1819: Stotfold being an important centre for these Shaws.
Cresana is where my interest in this family lies as she became the wife of one of my Drapers in 1838 but she died soon after marriage - which is why Ambrose probably had no knowledge of her. Perhaps the Christiana you mention, born 1847, is properly a 'Cresana'?
Ambrose Thorpe also has a Draper connection, of course: his wife was Leviathan Draper.
Hope that solves your puzzle.
Best wishes
Sharon
-
Just to add to this, James Andrews and Acorn/Amelia/Aquila (Ive seen all three names used on census's) had several children at Hinxton Cambs.
-
Hello Sharon and An65,
this looks like the the info i need to sort out what ive added to my tree so far.The overall impression im getting at the moment is of a family who used several family surnames at different times,and a variation of forenames.So it looks like theyll be difficult to research,which is often the case with the most intresting families.
I came across these Shaws whilst trawling the census looking for info on the stepmother of Mary Ann Streeting,the wife of my 4xgreat grandmothers cousin.Her name was Mary Ann Shaw born c1835.She married widowed Thomas Streeting(first wife Elizabeth Buckley),marine store dealer,on 15/01/1885 in Hawkhurst.She was a widowed hawker,father William Brown,general dealer.So im assuming she was a Brown who married a Shaw.Her birthplace given as:
1881 Birmingham,Staffordshire
1891 Birmingham,Hampshire
1901 Tonbridge,Kent.
She died in Kent County Lunatic Asylum,Maidstone in 1902.
Given the occupations etc,im thinking she might have been a traveller,but despite searching for a long time,i still dont know who she was or whether shes connected to these Shaws.
Ive got the Essex Shaws on my GenesReunited tree through Christiana Shaws son Divus Flacks marriage to Nancy Hedges,daughter of Job,the Hedges having married into the Arnold family ive been researching.
Im also very intrested in Councillette Shaws partner James Pain,my secretive great grandmother Emma Jane Pain being the one who set me off on this quest to uncover possible Romany roots in the first place.Her Father was rumoured to be a James Pain born c1870,from "out of the area".James and Councillette had a son James born 1870.But that needs looking at much more closely and is for a seperate post,could just be clutching at straws again!
Many thanks for posting all this info,
all the best,
Nel.
-
Certainly sounds like Roma folk you are looking for, Ive some Browns in my family, and the Arnolds were related to the Cunninghams & Swales.
-
Thanks An65,
i havent found the link to the Cunninghams and Swales yet.Is it the Medway Arnolds theyre connected to?
Nel.
-
Arnolds arent in my direct line - the only ones I know of came from Yorkshire
-
The ones ive got descend from John Arnold born c1815 Sandwich,Kent and Mercy Huckstep born c1815 Chislet.No further back yet,
Nel.
-
Just for you to cross ref to :
Richard Arnold b.cir 1817 New Malton Yks married 1841 New Malton to Hannah Cunningham d/o Richard Cunningham & Mary Miller (she was d/o Joseph Miller & Magdalene Wilson).
Richard Arnold was s/o Ann Busfield and the Busfield family also married into the Yorks Cunninghams/Swales family.
Richard & Hannah Arnold had quite a few children whos births were recorded at Mkt Weighton Yks.
Joseph, Jane, Richard, Hannah, Ann, Mary, Grace, Susannah, Lucy and Emily.
-
Big Jim Shaw who married Dinah Gray and had Sylvesta:
as I have it he was s/o Moses Shaw and Susanna or Sarah, and they also had:
John 1765 Gamblingay Cam, married Sarah Dover 1790 Stotfold Bdf
Moses c.1767 Mauldon Bdf married Jemima "Miney" Smith 1787 Stotfold Bdf
Elizabeth c.1769 Abington Pigotts Cam
Aaron c.1773 Shillington Bdf married Sophy Sly
Esther c.1779 Whittesford Cam
Jasper c.1781 Whittesford Cam married Sarah Smith 1800 Orwell Cam
-------------------
Next Gen:
John & Sarah Dover had:
John married Elizabeth, Maria married a Mr Parr (s/o a farmer), William married Esther Welch 1816, Fanny, Jasper, James, Aaron, John, Moses, Sarah married Neremiah Parry, and Elizabeth.
Moses & Jemima had:
William, Winnishall, Susannah, Priscilla married Christopher Smith, Mary, Moses married Fan Dimmock 1827 Steeple Morden Cam, Elizabeth, John & Sarah married Moses Harris.
Of these note Moses & Fanny Dimmock (or Frances) had a son Mendoza or Dowser abt 1827, and it is known this branch of Shaws used to stop in a field belonging to the Dimmock Family.
Aaron & Sophy had a child called Lary c.1815 East Hatley, Cam.
Jasper & Sarah had James (married Ruth), Annie, Sophia married Moses Smith 1870, Sidney, and Lawrence.
and of course. Dinah and Jim Shaw:
Silvesta married Stephen Loveridge, Cresana, Councillette married Jasper Shaw s/o William Shaw & Esther Welch, Aquila/Amelia/Acorn married James Andrews, and Susannah married Jonas Shaw, the son of Wiliam Shaw & Esther Welch.
-
Please see this site, which includes a painting of Moses Shaw and Miney Smith, with notes. To anyone with similar shaw Ancestry Id consider it valuable. Click on the image to enlarge :)
http://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/leisure/archives/online/breakingthebarriers/barriers8.htm
-
Many thanks An65,
sorry for the delay,ive had a heavy cold all over Christmas and its really laid me low.
Ill have a much closer look early next year,
regards,
Nel.
-
hope youre soon feeling better :) happy new yr
-
Thanks,and Happy New Year to you.
-
John 1765 Gamblingay Cam, married Sarah Dover 1790 Stotfold Bdf
-------------------
Next Gen:
John & Sarah Dover had:
John married Elizabeth, Maria married a Mr Parr (s/o a farmer), William married Esther Welch 1816, Fanny, Jasper, James, Aaron, John, Moses, Sarah married Neremiah Parry, and Elizabeth.
Hi An 65,
My wife's tree has a John Shaw with a wife called Sarah and sons including Aaron and Moses. I have found a number of references on various sites to John having married Sarah Dover. I appreciate the problems involved with identifying exact relationships with gypsy families and I can quite understand how places and dates fit to make something seem a good bet. However, I wondered whether there was any evidence that this couple were Aaron and Moses' parents e.g. baptism records, wills (unlikely) etc.
Please don't think I doubt what you have is correct, I just wondered where I could go to find some confirmation.
Thanks, Simon
-
hi i was wondering if you could help with my family search.
you have information about the shaws , I think that it comes from a tree i have see , it has my 4 times grandparents Cornelius and betty Shaw. but i can not work out who are their parents if you have this Shaw pedigree , could you please have a look so i can find out whose their parents.
PS the tree starts with a Moses Shaw and wife Susannah1741 i think their kids are john Shaw and Sarah dover i think their kids are john and Elisabeth Shaw , so i need to know what relationship Cornelius and betty are.
hope you can help
all the best Shaw
-
Hi all.
I am descended from the Shaw family - My Grandads mum was a Shaw.
Many of my facts have been both researched and taken from a very old and battered family bible that was handed down to my grandad, so some of my information has come from his transcripts done before the bible became unreadable.
Silvester Shaw is my 2nd cousin 4 x removed, daughter of James Shaw and Dinah Gray.
Here is a brief tree of that part of the family...
James Shaw (my 1st cousin 5 x R) is son of Moses Shaw (b1741) and Susannah Dimmock (1744)
his siblings are:
John (1765-1834)
Moses (1767-1839)
Elizabeth (b1769)
Mary (b1771)
Aaron (b1773)
Esther (b1779)
Jasper (1781-1841)
Dinah Gray - (wife of my 1st cousin 5 x R, also MIL of two of my 3rd cousins 3 x R) is daughter of Fourness "Fowk" Gray (1755-1828) and Mary Thorpe (1758-1830)
Her siblings are:
Eleanor (b1775)
William (1775-1844)
Angelis (b1777)
Rittah (1778-1844)
Ambrose (1780-1852)
Constance (b1785)
Silvester "Silva" Charlotte (1793-1839)
Holland (1796-1828)
Thomas (b1798)
James (b1803)
James Shaw & Dinah Gray had 5 daughters:
Aquilla (1815-1900) m.James Andrews
Cresena (b1818)
Silvester (b1819) m.Stephen Loveridge
Counsellety (abt1823) m.Jasper Shaw (her 2nd cousin - Son of William Shaw and Esther Welch)
Susannah (b1826) m.Jonas Shaw (her 2nd cousin - Son of William Shaw and Esther Welch)
As you can see, already we have a complicated family tree!
There are multiple inter family marriages, multiple children to couples (my grandad was one of 22 children) but from what I know and can ascertain from the facts I have found over many years, our family was a very tight knit community. Families lived and travelled together, as well as married into these families on many occasions.
There are hundreds more people to talk about but I'll be here for eternity! Many stories and some scandals too. If anyone is interested I'd be only to happy to make a connection and share.