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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: postylady on Friday 10 December 10 21:23 GMT (UK)
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Hi All
Can anyone tell me if there are any hospital records and if there are, where I can aquire them. My 2x great grandma died of burns and shock in 1888 on 22nd May. The death cert states that the informant resided at Cottenera Hospital, and that the death was registered on 24 May at the cottonera police station Malta, was this the norm?
Any help appreciated
Thanks in advance
Posty
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hello posty
have you tried googling cottonera hosp only there are several sites in which the name crops up it was at around the time your looking at an army hosp i believe if i,ve read things right worth a look for a bit of an insight to the place if nothing else , also try these 2 sites www.barbsnow.net/malta.htm and www.kindredtrails.com/malta.htmlyou may find a way forward from either of these i do hope so .
regards
trevor
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Hi Treevor
Thanks for the links, will have a look when I have a bit of time. Thanks for taking the time to reply. Have a nice Christmas
Regards
Posty
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Hi Posty,
It seems to me that records in Malta, if they have survived, don't seem very easy to access. There just doesn't seem to be the same interest in genealogy here as in the UK.
This website has quite a few indexes and it might be worth you having a look through or even contacting the owner of the website for advice.
http://website.lineone.net/~stephaniebidmead/second.htm
I live in Malta and although I am unable to answer your question if you do make some progress and need someone "on the ground" as it were, please contact me and I will do my best to help.
Merry Christmas :)
Luzzu
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Hi Luzzu
Thanks for the link and the offer if I need someone on the ground, I never thought of asking the owner of the web site.
Thanks again and I may be in touch in the future, if by any chance I get a lead.
Thanks and have a nice Christmas :)
Posty
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Hi again :).
It seems like Cottonera Hospital was one of the military hospitals so was your 2 x gt grandma a wife or daughter of a service man?
http://geociti.es/HotSprings/2615/medhist/hospital3.htm
There is a maritime museum at Cottonera now and if you had a link to the Royal Navy it might be worth contacting them.
http://www.visitmalta.com/the-maritime-museum
Luzzu
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Hi Luzzu
Yes, she was the wife of my 2xgreatgrandad. I have his army number, on her death certificate, he was a master gunner in the royal artillery.
I got in touch with the owner of the web site, like you suggested and they replied to me today, it's negative news though, there are no hospital records available in Malta, practically 100% of any documents relating to the british era were brought back to the UK. Suggested I might try National Archives in Kew website.
So will try that, and thanks again for info
All the best to you for the new year
Regards
Posty
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hello postylady
if you care to post up his name and number and birthdate and place of birth if you know them i,ll have a look for a service record for him
trevor
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Hi,
That's a shame but I wish you luck in finding what you are looking for.
I have just been looking to see if Malta Police hold an archive or similar for something else I am researching and came across a snippet that might interest you.
You mentioned the death being registered at the local police station. Apparently the police had a number of subsidiary duties apart from upholding the law. They sold stamps and had to register incoming and outgoing mail and when the telephone was introduced to Malta they were installed at the police stations. So they acted like a post office up until 1921. The police were also responsible for street cleansing in the four cities and right up until the early 20th century gave out awards to people who brought them dead rats (to do with controlling plague). It seems like a police station at the end of the 19th century was the centre of the community.
So if does seem that registering a death at a police station would have been a normal thing to do.
The Public Registry in Malta was set up in 1889 although Army births, marriages and deaths were registered through the GRO.
Best wishes for the New Year.
Luzzu
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Hi Trevor
Thanks for the offer, but I already have the service records of William Smith 829 master gunner, He ended up being a publican in nottingham and being married another twice, 1st and 2nd wives died, and then went on to marry his 2nd wives younger sister (presumably as a mother figure for her sisters children), He died in 1904.
The reason I'm looking into the death of his 1st wife, is that someone told me she died by being set on fire whilst trying to get the fire in the family home lit and that William ran through to help, but I haven't found any records substantiating this. There must be some somewhere? I'm just after putting a bit of flesh on the bones whilst I'm at the proverbial brick wall.
Thanks again and all the best for 2011
Regards
Posty
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Hi Luzzu
That was interesting, so thanks once again for the information so far.
Regards
Posty
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hi postylady
ok thats fine my regards and happy new year to you and yours
trevor
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Hi Luzzu
Just to clarify, when you said about records being hard to come by in Malta, did you mean medical or any records? Reason I'm asking is, I have tried looking on kindredtrails website, but when I click on something of interest it seems to send me on an american trail. Was wondering if you could find out about any burial records and church ground she was buried, if possible. Never know, might travel to Malta one day, might be worth a look if anything can be found out.
Thanks for any help
Posty
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Hi.
It seems to be any records :(. Earlier in the year I was trying to get birth certificates from the public registry and you are not allowed to search through the indexes but I found out the year of birth so I went to see them and they wouldn't even type anything into the computer without an EXACT date. I am sure it would have been easy to find as it wasn't a common name. What made it even worse was that the woman wasn't doing anything so she wasn't busy. They said I had to go to the Church and get a baptism certificate and then go back with the date of birth. They were so unhelpful. Never tried researching a grave at the cemetery but I do know taking photographs of graves isn't allowed. There doesn't seem to be the same interest in family history here as in the UK.
Luzzu
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Hi Again Luzzu
Awww it must be so difficult in Malta to even try doing the family tree then. I'm pleased you told me about the taking photo's of the graves being banned. I would never have known that. This might sound like a stupid question but are there many cemetries in Malta and are there any that were solely for the use of anyone that served, or was related to anyone serving in the forces from the uk?
I'm going to have to keep digging, until I find out where she is and what happened to her.
thanks for everything so far
Posty
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Hi,
I have some news for you. I won't say good because its sad but it does tell you what you want to know.
The main cemetery in Malta is the Addolorata Cemetery. It is mainly for civilians and still in use today. There are some military burials in there too. There is also Ta Braxia and a few military cemeteries. There are indexes for the various military cemeteries on:-
http://website.lineone.net/~stephaniebidmead/index.htm
I think the cemetery you need to look at is Rinella Military Cemetery as there is the following burial listed. I think the cemetery is empty now as it seems that the remains were transferred to Kalkara Naval Cemetery in the 1970's and reinterred in a mass grave.
Mrs SMITH, the wife of Master Gunner Smith. They occupied quarters at the Lighthouse, Delimara. On Saturday, 18th, she was lighting a fire and poured benzin on it. There was an explosion and her clothes were immediately ablaze. Her husband rushed into the room and managed to extinguish the flames. She was taken to Cottonera Hospital where she died Tuesday, 21st, from the effects of shock. She left a husband and five young children.
So it seems that what you have been told is accurate and I am really sorry but I don't think her grave is there anymore :'(.
I am not sure what is on the site of Rinella Military Cemetery now or if it is still the derelict cemetery. I will ask around and try to find out.
With regard to doing a Maltese family tree, I am glad I don't have to as when I have tried to access records it has been to try and help other people. My roots are in mainly in Manchester and Lancashire.
Luzzu :)
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Hi again,
Just found this entry on the Malta Family History website:-
SMITH, William, 38 years, widower, Master Gunner, Royal Artillery, married 24th December 1888 to BARBER, Mary Frances, 27 years, spinster.
It is on the Index of Marriages recorded by Army Chaplins 1824-1900 on the Index of Deaths recorded by Army Chaplins 1800-1900 there is a Mary Ann Smith who died in 1888 but I don't know if this was the first name of the lady you are looking for. The entry doesn't give any more information other than the name and date though.
http://website.lineone.net/~stephaniebidmead/index.htm
Also I wondered if you knew that it wasn't lawful for a man to marry the sister of his deceased wife until after 1907:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deceased_Wife's_Sister's_Marriage_Act_1907
Hope this helps.
Luzzu
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Aww
Thank you so much for all this, I have tried looking on that lineone site that you were on and couldn't find it, have been trying to find my way round it for months...
How sad :'(, yes this is the lady I was looking for. Her maiden name was Mary Ann Hetty. They were married in 1879 when she was 21, not sure what year they went to Malta, but they had 4 children whilst they were there, oh I just noticed, 3 of those were born after Mary's death?? Obviously his 2nd wife (Mary Francis Barber) and his children. I'm confused now. What happened to the other children she left behind?? I'm taking this info off the 1901 census, maybe the other children stayed in Malta?
i was aware that there was a law about marrying deceased spouses siblings, but thought this was mainly aimed against women. He and Mary Francis were married Dec 1888 in Valletta, she died during childbirth with multiple convulsions in 1902 then he marreid her sister in 1903. So he didn't leave much time inbetween any of the deaths. He then died in 1904, so I'm thinking he needed a mother for his young children. His youngest being born 1899. I haven't found anything yet to say wether the child survived after Mary Francis died.
Sorry about the essay :)
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I will ask around and try and find out what remains at Rinella.
What are the names and birth dates of the children. I wonder if some of them died in Malta. I think without a doubt the reason he re-married quickly on both occasions was to provide give his children a mother. I think it was quite common in the 19th century. He certainly had a very sad time over the years.
They were married in 1879 when she was 21, not sure what year they went to Malta
Does his service record say what date he was posted to Malta?
Luzzu
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I agree with you there, he did seem to have his fair share of bad luck.
The line that I am searching is Williams son George John, He was born in Dublin in Ireland (again with the forces I beleive) also myself and my aunty are in touch with another of Williams sons' descendants, William jnr. So with help from my aunty the five children were William jnr, George, Charles, Abraham was born in London and Isaac born in Malta. I don't know the dates of these childrens birth though, only George, who was born in 1882.
I msut have been having a dim moment, why didn't I think of the army records for him leaving for Malta. Also on one page of the records it says the name of a street where he was living, in Sliema, I tried googling the street but maybe I didn't get the name right or it doesn't exist anymore.
Posty
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Hi again.
Happy New Year :D.
What is the name of the street in Sliema? I live very close to Sliema and in fact that is where I work so I am there very often.
Re the children. My initial thought is that there should be more. The burial record for Mary Ann said she left her husband with 5 young children and then you mentioned 3 children being born after Mary Ann's death so their mother must be Mary Frances and then did she die giving birth to a 4th child who may or may not have lived. Then he married Mary Frances' sister in 1903, did she have any children?
Luzzu
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Just been trying to sort out these children in my mind - is this right?
William Thomas Smith married Mary Ann Hetty in 1879 and their children are:-
William jnr born ?
George John born 1882 in Dublin
Charles born ?
Abraham born ? in London
Francis born 1885 in London
Isaac born 1887 in Malta
Mary Ann dies in May 1888 in Malta and the burial record says she leaves five young children - so one of the above must have died in infancy. Maybe Abraham because Francis and Isaac appear on the 1901 census and William and Charles are mentioned in George's WW1 record. Do you know in which part of London Abraham was born?
William Thomas marries Mary Frances Barber in Dec 1888 and their children are:-
Harry born 1890 in Malta
Arthur born 1894 in Malta
Frederick born 1896 in Malta
Percy born 1899 in Marsden, Beds
? born 1902 in Marsden, Beds
Mary Frances dies in childbirth 1st qtr 1902 Ampthill 3b 241 and we don't know if the child survives. If it did and it was registered 1st qtr 1902, there are 3 possible registrations in Ampthill - Gladys Sophia, James or Maud.
William married Kate Elizabeth Barber 1st qtr 1903 and we don't know if they had any children.
William Thomas dies 3rd qtr 1904 aged 54.
Have you found the 3rd wife on the 1911 census to see which children, if any, she has with her.
Looking at George John's WW1 record he only gives the names of 3 brothers - William, Charles and Frederick.
Luzzu
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On the Malta Family History website there are these baptisms but I don't know how you go about finding more information about them:-
Arthur Smith 1894 79th reg
Harry S Smith 1890 Royal Artillery
Frederick 1897 29th reg
Frederick James 1898 Royal Artillery
Luzzu
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Hi Luzzu
How do you find so much out in such a short space of time. It seems to take me months. Thanks for everything. You have all the right info. Theplace they lived was Marston in Bedfordshire. No kids for kate and William as far as I know. Will PM you. Hope the attachment turns out ok.
Posty
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Hi :),
Had a look at the attachment you sent and the street in Sliema is Strada Reale. Now there is a problem because in the 19th century the street names were all in Italian, then the British changed them (I think after WW2) and then when Malta became a republic they were changed again.
There was a Strada Reale in Valletta (the capital) which was renamed Kingsway by the British and then changed again to Triq ir-Republika (Republic Street) after independence. It is one of the most prominent streets in Valletta so I am hoping the one in Sliema will be one of the major streets as well.
I will ask around and try and find out. It is unlikely the original house will be there as Sliema was heavily bombed in WW2 and then over the last 30 years has undergone major redevelopment and modernisation. However when I find out where the street is I will go and have a look and take some photographs.
Luzzu
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Strada Reale in Sliema is now known as Triq il Kbira or High Street.
Luzzu
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Thank you Luzzu, for everything
The drinks are on me :)
Posty
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Hi Postylady, Luzzo
I've been looking for WW1 hospital records from Malta, there doesn't
seem to be any surviving, even at Kew. General word is that they were
returned to the UK, but never archived.
I also find research in Malta isn't easy, but it is possible, just don't believe the first person who says "No/cant do it/not for public viewing"
- if you need a B/M/D certificate but don't know the exact date -
apply online - they will search for 3 years around the date, unfortunately if it falls outside those 3 yrs they still keep your money!
Similarly, cemetery records, I eventually got a result by emailing the cemetery manager directly, even though the records "weren't currently available".
Still having trouble getting records from St.Julians though, and finding Christian Brothers Street... Anyone?!?
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Had a fair degree of success recently obtaining birth certificates from the public registry online by guessing the date. In every case if they haven't been able to issue a certificate they haven't taken the payment which I thought was very good. Extract certificates only cost 2.33 euros.
In which town is Christian Brothers Street and in what time period? Various streets in Malta have been renamed several times depending on who was in charge, i.e., French, Italian, British and now Maltese since the island became independent in 1964.
What are you looking for in St Julians?
Luzzu :)
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Hi Luzzu,
Christian Brothers Street is/was in Gzira in the early 1940's.
My Gt.Aunt Vincenza "Jessie" Rice was killed in 1942 by an exploding bomb.
- her death certificate states "in Fleet street", family stories say she was at home. From what i can find it was just a single bomb dropped in the area on 28 October 1942.
Her home address was "Annie", Christian Brothers Street, Gzira - stated on CWGC. I'd love to find a photo or even just locate it.
My interest in St Julians is baptisms, again concerning the same family.
- I know my Gt Uncle John "Jack" Rice married Vincenza (nee Amaira)
at St Julians in 1923, (and have been in contact with her family who confirm St Julians
was the family church). The twist is that (our) family believed they were childless, however I have uncovered a photo that seems to suggest otherwise...
and so I wondered if I could check recorded baptisms...
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Hi Tim,
I will ask around about Christian Brothers Street in Gzira. I know a couple of people who have lived in Gzira for a long time so I will see what I can find out. If I can find out where it is or was, I will go down and take some photographs for you.
Not sure how to go about accessing baptismal records for St Julians. The church itself is quite modern. Looking at it I would guess late 1960's so I would think when it was rebuilt the records would have been taken to the Curia in Valletta. I think it would be a case of contacting the priest and taking his advice. A small donation worked for me when I asked a priest to look up at baptism which took place in St Gaetano in Hamrun and the records had already been removed to the Curia and he took the trouble to go and find it for me.
Have you got the Rice/Amaira marriage certificate?
Luzzu
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Hi Tim,
Do you have a photograph of the memorial on which your Great Aunt is named?
Luzzu
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Hi Luzzu,
Yes I have a photo of the memorial, found it on the Malta Family History site. Not sure where it is exactly though.
(there's a picture of My Gt Aunt and uncle there too - have a look for "Rice" on this page - http://website.lineone.net/~stephaniebidmead/BritishResidents1900-1979.htm ).
I also have their marriage and death certificates too.
I have tried contacting the priest but have not had a reply yet - but I'm patient and optimistic though - it was about 3 months for the cemetery people to reply!!
I think I have an idea about Christian Brothers Street - "Christian Brothers" refers to De La Salle Brothers who ran Christian schools for homeless/poor children. They're now known as La Sallian institute, and they have 3 in Malta, including 1 in Gzira - the Stella Maris College, on St Albert Street. I'd guess St Albert Street is or is close to Christian Brothers street, and I'll bet Fleet Street isn't far away either...
More digging to do I think..
Back to the children - attached is athe photo I found , it was sent to his eldest sister, on the back it states "to Ethel, the children Arthur, Neno and Mary"- Especially as his father was called Arthur ...
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Hi Tim,
Lovely photographs. I have just had a look at the one on the Malta Family History website.
I was thinking along the same lines yesterday with regard to Stella Maris College. Good news. Fleet Street still exists. I have found it on a map - Triq il Flotta and it runs parallel with Triq San Albert. There is also De La Salle not far away. I can also see a street called Freres which I think is brothers in French ???. I will have a wander down there over the next week or so and take a look and some photographs.
Just an idea. Why don't you send a letter to The Times of Malta (Letters to the Editor page):-
www.timesofmalta.com
You might be lucky enough to find someone who has a photograph of how the area used to be. You could include one of your photographs. I have seen letters from people who are researching and looking for help printed in the paper.
Luzzu :)
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Hi Luzzu,
If triq il Flotta is that close to San Albert we must be right -
my money is on De La Salle being Christian Brothers street. ..
can't see it on google maps though - do you know of any other online street maps of Malta? Photo's would be amazing!!
Good idea about a letter to the Times, hadn't thought of that. Wonder if there's anyone still alive who might remember them personally? - can only hope!! John's live seems to be such a mystery. guess that's part of the appeal.
I had another thought, if the children were theirs, then presumably they had the surname Rice - and there can't be that many people called "Neno Rice", or even "arthur Rice" for that matter - do you know of any directories from the 30's/40's? or voters lists etc?
Tim
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Hi Tim,
Just thought I would check phone directory to see how many Rices there are - only 4 - and one is in Triq San Albert, Gzira :D and wait until you see his first name - may be a grandson. The most recent phone book in print is 2004 (things move slowly in Malta 8)) so it is a bit out of date but I will PM the addresses to you in case you want to write a few letters.
There is a chance some one still living might remember them if you write to The Times so sending a photograph would be a good idea. I think it will encourage more people to read it with a photograph too.
Luzzu
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Hi Luzzu,
- thats amazing! could even be the same house!
Letter duly written and posted. It would be some coincidence if there was no relationship... I'm going to wait for the response before I write to the paper.
I found an online map, looks like there could be a few possibilities for Christian Brother's Street. I saw somewhere else on line where someone contacted the
Tourist dept. about the old street names and they found out exactly, so I'm going to try that as well.
- Will let you know how I get on.
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I knew you would send a letter :D. Let's keep everything crossed. I will definitely go down to Gzira this week or next and have a look around. Its only a 15 minute walk. Yes I think either me or Postylady contacted the Tourism Department or the Council and they told us where the street was and it turned out I walked down it every day when I go to work.
Luzzu
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Hi Tim,
I have a few photographs for you if you can PM your email address. I had a few problems with the camera but what I have will give you a general idea and then I can always go back and get some more when hopefully you have more information.
Triq Il Freres is only a small street and looks as if it was all residential. One side of the street still has a few older houses, the other side has been totally redeveloped with a massive new apartment block. I checked all the names on the houses which all have girls names - Carmen, Jessie, Iris, Rose etc., but no Annie :(.
Triq il Flotta isn't far away on the other side of the main road, Rue D'Argens. This is quite a long street, mainly residential but with a few shops as well.
I wonder if the bomb fell on Fleet Street and may be she was taken home and died there because it isn't far at all.
Triq San Albert as you know is parallel to Triq Il Flotta but I wasn't able to find the address you wrote to. Some of the houses have been developed and all the numbers seem mixed up. Let's hope the postman has more luck.
Luzzu :)