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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: TerryD on Tuesday 07 December 10 16:45 GMT (UK)
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In my research I seemed to have unearthed an interesting story concerning John Cates who was a surgeon in Sydney Australia between 1835 and 1860.
Born in 1799 to another surgeon called John Cates he was educated at Charterhouse and St Omers(Stoneyhurst College) in England.
On 1st July 1835 he was declared bankrupt and to escape the fallout it would appear he went to Sydney to practice as in July 1839 he was registered to practice in Parramatta. I know he was still registered to practice in Sydney in 1842 and 1860 but he then returned to England as he appears in the 1861 UK census.
If anybody has any information on this character I would be very interested
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http://www.medicalpioneers.com/ has quite a bit of info about him.
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:)
Hi jorose
Many thanks for enlightening me further although the information begs the question "Did he return to Australia after 1850 as he was still registered in Sydney in the Sunday Morning Herald dated 21st January 1860."
Or does the registration stay open even though he had returned to England.
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Hi
Had you thought he was a married man?
There are some births and adeath to father JOHN CATES
Reg.V1838729 23A
In 1838 CATES HUMPHREY G
Father JOHN
ELIZABETH A
Reg.V1840725 26A
In1840 CATES GEORGE C
Father JOHN
ELIZABETH A
Reg.V1844677 28
In1844 CATES SUSAN E
Father JOHN
ELIZABETH A
Reg1844677 28 In 1844
Death
Reg.5930
In1893 CATES CHARLES C
Father JOHN
ELIZABETH A
At GLEBE
Sue
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Hi there,
NSW Government Gazette lists the NSW Medical Board's Legally Qualified Medical Practitioners as at 4 January 1861.... included in that list is
Cates John, Sydney
Sydney would be indicating the location, and as there are others in that list showing Parramatta, it would seem that by 1860 he was in Sydney Town rather than Parramatta...
I'll try to find any more Gazette listings, back shortly...
Edit to add : Not found any more, but the reference details for the Jan 1861 list would be NSW Government Gazette 1861 Pt.1 pp. 42 - 43.
I'm not sure if that means John Cates was in NSW in 1860 but it seems to be pointing towards that assumption.
The UK census date was 31 March 1861 .
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
Possibly TWO chaps in Sydney NSW with same name (the Sands directories commenced 1858, produced annually usually with closing date for listings at October of the year before publication, ie 1861 directory would be compiled by Oct 1860)...
Sands Directories 1858-9 Medical Directory Cates John, Sydney
Sands Directories Commercial 1861 Cates, John, Grocer 275 Kent Street, Sydney
The transcripts of the City of Sydney Assessment Books (Rates, landlords, tenants etc) is listed on the NSW Resources Thread here : http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369703.0.html
Cheers, JM
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Hi Sue,
Many thanks for all this info which I knew some of but certainly not all.
Yes I knew he had children as the ancestor I am tracing back from led me to James Cates born 1852 in England which then led me back to this Surgeon John Cates, Jame Father.
From the 1861 UK census I knew John and Elizabeth were in England with a son William born Marylebone 1833 and daughter Susan born NSW 1844. James was nine at the time and in a Quakers boarding school.
Knew from medical pioneers report that 3 children (boys i think) arrived with him in June 1839 , William would be one, Humphrey would also be one, born on voyage? but dont know the other. Could have been Charles i suppose.
Did not know about George C.
Know he sailed out of Sydney 1850 with 3 boys and a girl, did one stay behind I wonder.
I now need to look at Uk records to try and find Humphrey, George and Charles life stories .
Any further clarification you can give me would help, i take it charles Death is in Australia.
Best regards
Terry
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JM
Thanks for your posts and I had one from the Sydney Morning Herald in 1860 saying my John Cates was a surgeon Sydney at that date.
What is confusing me is that journeys to Australia at that time would be long and arduous and I cant get my head around him flitting back and forth.
The info in the medical pioneers link above suggests he was in Australia 1839 to 1850 certainly and also in 1873. The newspaper registrations suggest he was there around 1860 but i know he was in England March 1861. Whilst that might be possible the only sailings for him on the pioneers link are in in 1839 and out in 1850.
I have this feeling that he was only in Australia 1839-1850 but I am hoping somebody might prove me wrong with some extra info. What would really help is if somebody could confirm or otherwise if he could be registered as a Doctor in Sydney even though he was back in England.
Confused but happy
Best regards
Terry
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Terry,
I apologise for omitting the link to search BDM in NSW. This is where I found the information I gave above.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search?event=births
a marriage for CHARLES
REG.3689In1888
CATES CHARLES C
To WOODWARD SARAH
At GOULBURN
Sue
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Hi there,
Do you think he may have gone back to England 1850, and then perhaps returned to NSW when news of the gold discoveries reached the UK ... perhaps he travelled back and forth as a Surgeon as part of the crew on various ships carrying the gold seekers. The population of Australia escalated ;D ;D with various episodes of 'gold fever' causing masses to flock to many different mining sites in NSW and Victoria in the 1850's.
Do you have these cuttings for John Cates
Sydney Morning Herald (SMH) 1 February 1843 has him in Sydney (Town)
SMH 20 November 1848 has he and his wife at Parramatta in Sept 1848
Sorry, but I can't be positive that he was in NSW in 1858 or 1860 when the NSW Medical Board listed him as being at Sydney ... Have you contacted the NSW Medical Board to see if they have archive records ? the contact details are at their "about us" page on this link http://www.mcnsw.org.au/
Cheers, JM
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Thanks again Sue and JM
JM I have the cutting for 1848 when he is informer in drinks case but nothing for 1843.
The Gold seekers idea certainly appeals to me and perhaps after his earlier bankruptcy it appealed to him.
Thanks Terry
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Hi,
Barque Mary White
Departed Sydney Dec 28 1850 for London
Cates Dr & Mrs.
Cates Master x 3
Cates Miss
Gerry
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Hi there,
Link for online digitised newspapers, http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/search?adv=y .... suggest you search for "John Cates" quite a number of mentions ... earliest 1839
Tuesday 9 July 1839 Sydney Gazette ... medical board listing him at Parramatta
Cheers, JM
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Using the link put up by JM above enter Charles Cates.
There are some interesting bits about him including advertisemants and testimonials regarding his Washing Powder.
Sue
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Hi Gerry
Many thanks for that info although I did have it from the medical pioneers link.
Sorry perhaps I should have included that above.
They came in on the EDITED Mellish in June 1839.
The mystery is 3 children came in, 2 born in australia and 4 went out in 1850. Have got to find out who stayed , probably Charles who died in 1893.
Best regards
Terry
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Re who stayed ...
Monday 30 December 1850 SMH
December 28.-Mary White, barque, 330 tons, Captain Walker, for London. Passengers-Dr. and Mrs. Cates, three master Cates, Miss Cates ... "master" seems to me to be the younger three boys and their sister were on that voyage...
BUT, if they came on the Melissa in June 1839 then how to explain the NSW BDM online index with 1838 entry for Humphrey :-\ ...
Cheers, JM
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This looks like a sad tale
Birth of a child to SARAH and CHARLES
REG 29905In1889
CATES ELIZABETH A
CHARLES C
SARAH
AT NEWCASTLE
This record I think will be the above girl and a boy after his death.
It records their placement in RANDWICK ASYLUM.
163 4728 CATES,Charles Agustus
Age 5
Date 28 Nov 1895
NRS 13362 4 1868
163 4727 CATES Elizabeth Ann
Age 6
Date 28 Nov 1895
NRS 13362 4 1868
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/news/try-the-new-keyname-search
Sue
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Hi
Sarah, the widow of Charles remarried
Reg.1099 In 1893
HENSLEY ALBERT
To CATES SARAH
At SYDNEY
Sue
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Young Charles had a fairly long life. :)
Here is his death
Reg.14743 In 1978 CATES CHARLES AUGUSTUS
Father CHARLES
MotherSARAH
Sue
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Well found Sue, yes, so sad :(
The pilot search has indexed the following christenings at St Lawrence C of E, Sydney (this would be the temporary building for Christ Church St Laurence/Lawrence, the building was completed in around 1845) :
John and Elizabeth Cates listed as parents :
George Collier Cates b 31 Oct 1840, ch 20 May 1842
Susan Kain Cates b 18 Mar 1840 1844 , ch same day EDIT TO NOTE JM corrected year to read 1844, and confirm that pilot site has birth date and christening date separately listed and both read 18 Mar 1844 ... perhaps need to check when was LENT in 1844, as from memory baptisms rarely conducted at St L's during lent ... so perhaps "Mar" could be "May" for baptism
Humphrey Gwynne Cates b 29 Aug 1839 ch 27 Oct 1839
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#start
http://www.ccsl.org.au/ (I found their archivist very helpful when I contacted him quite a number of years ago when seeking to confirm various of my forebears details who were pew holders )
Cheers, JM
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Sue and JM you are stars.
Info beyond my wildest dreams.
Sue - Father looking after peoples bodies and then son keeping their whites white.
I had the birth of the Girl in 1889 but cant find the birth of the son which from your info should have been in 1890. Am I asuming right ?
JM -/Sue Re Humphrey , I assumed that he was born in 1838 but this was the first time they had to register him and the registration was made after they arrived in 1839. Is this possible ?
As JM says, if the registration was actually made in 1838 they couldnt have sailed in on the Melissa in 1839
Oh dear confusion reigns
Many thanks Terry
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Hi Terry,
Civil registrations commenced in NSW in 1856, so the info on NSW BDM pre 1856 is baptisms, burials and weddings from parish records forwarded to NSW BDM after that and not all records were forwarded, in fact many were not. From personal experience I know of several PRs from St Laurence that are NOT on the online index for NSW BDM. These were events that occurred in my family tree in 1840's and 1850's ... the PRs are found on film at the NSW State Library. NSW BDM records were updated in 1980's when they converted over to computers using EDP cards so some cards were wrongly keyed, some cards were damaged etc and of course some PRs were not forwarded back in the late 1850's.
Perhaps Humphrey's online index showing 1838 has a typo in that year :-\ if you are sure they arrived on the Melissa ...
I'll be back shortly, off to see if I can find the Melissa's arrival ;) in the newspapers
EDIT TO ADD Wish there was a smiley who had feet and could stamp them right now .... NO sightings for the Melissa as a sailing ship to NSW in 1830's at the newspaper site .... :D
Cheers, JM
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Hi Sue and JM
Its 1am here in England and I am just about to go to bed but cant thanks to your info coming in thick and fast. Thanks again.
Can I just say ARGHHH LOL :D :o
It now seems Humphrey was born in 1839 not 1838 and was not one of the 3 who were on board the Melissa, do you agree ?
I had from uk 1861 census that the girl was Susan K born 1844 in NSW which seems to be born out by sue's first post although says Susan E but now i have record from JM saying Susan K born March 1840 and christened same day.
Is this right or a misprint? Or is the confusion to do with JM's last post
Sorry to be a whinging pom LOL but loving all of this
Terry
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Hi Terry,
I had the birth of the Girl in 1889 but cant find the birth of the son which from your info should have been in 1890. Am I asuming right ?TERRY
I am not able to locate the birth of CHARLES AUGUSTUS in NSW or VICTORIA .
His death (above) at least confirms he was the child of Charles C and Sarah :)
Sue
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Hi Terry,
I gave the link to the pilot site, I'm sure it has Susan Kain Cates born and baptised on the same day on that index ! It's an index, so it could have transcriber error....
JM
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Capital K and capital E would look confusable in the old script ;)
Sue
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Hi All,
I have edited my reply #19 to show a) my own typo .... should be 1844, not 1840 and b) to suggest a speculative reason for considering there's possible transcriber typo between "Mar" and "May" ... but that's really only speculation without checking the PR and I'm not Sydney based, so it will be months and months before I get to NSW State Library to look up their films ... Terry, if I were you, I would be emailing Christ Church and asking them to forward your enquiry to their archivist (a volunteer, so may take some time to get a reply at this time of the year many families in Australia are planning for annual holidays. Our Long School Holidays are from mid Dec to late Jan/early Feb)
Agree Sue, "K" and "E" can be confusing in old scripts ...
Cheers, JM
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Sue and JM
Thanks for all your help we have most of the loose ends tied up now.
Time for me to try and find charles augustus birth and contact the archivist at St laurence.
JM Also agree there should be a smiley who can stamp his feet, mine are perishing at mo due to minus temps in UK for over a week now.
Love to you all in the sunny climes 8) and just played I Am Australian to get me into the swing of things. Brilliant song ;D
Terry
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;D
Hi Terry, don't close the thread, wait until you hear back from the archivist, OR perhaps someone will turn up after googlesearching CATES ... :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSoGJQkKDYk&feature=related (The Seekers signing I am Australian)
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM
Wouldnt dream of closing thread hoping others will help me as well as sue and you have.
Thats allways been my favourite version of the song. If not a new national anthem for Australia it should be sung at events in which Australia are represented.
Truely inspirational song and i even know all the words!!!!
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This story gets better by the minute.
It appears on its journey from NSW to London the Mary White was lost at Sea.
See this link
http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Gazette/Accidents/Mary_White_Loss.html
I wonder if the passengers given the masters cabin on the Preciosa were John and Elizabeth
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Have edited it earlier but they arrived on the MELLISH not Melissa on 5th June 1839.
Found on this site
http://www.blaxland.com/ozships/
Here is a picture of said ship owned by the East India Company and used as prison ship in 1830.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.pic-an9576808
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Now Terry,
We havent finished with you yet! Don't wind up ;D
Here is the marriage of a CHARLES A.
REG6963 IN 1901 CATES CHARLES A
To WATSON MADELINE
At MARRICKVILLE
EDIT Too young to be the right man.
On our National Archives search site ther is adigitised war service record for your man.
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/recordsearch/index.aspx
He says he was born in DUNEDIN NZ, but to date I have not located that birth. I will keep looking.
His sister is his next of kin and her married name was RICHRDSON she lived at High St, Waverley,NSW.
ADDING
Here is her marriage
REG. 3179In 1910 RICHARDSON FRANK
To CATES ELIZABETH A
At WAVERLEY
Sue
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It looks as if ELIZABETH and FRANK may have had children.
The birth index only goes to 1909 in NSW, so we cannot see their births, but here are a couple of possible deaths.
REG 21184 In 1941 RICHARDSON , GORDON CHARLES
Father FRANK
mother ELIZABETH ANN
At BURWOOD
Reg.15836 In 1921 RICHARDSON, FRANK E
Father FRANK
mother ELIZABETH A
At ANNANDALE
Sue
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Hi Sue,
Not winding up, i like the treatment too much ;D
War record stuff extremely interesting although he cant seem to get his age right, 23, 24, 21 etc etc
Looks like we looking for Dunedin birth 1890 /1
Confident we will find as this trace is going so well thanks to all the help I am receiving.
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Re the ship MELLISH newspapers info summary :
Seems to have left Britain possibly from the Downs around 28 Nov 1838 ;D as reported in Sydney papers eg The Colonist of Wednesday 13 March 1839. She had GOVERNMENT EMIGRANTS on board ...
Also ship could be named JOHN MELLISH as per newspaper The Australian Tuesday 12 March 1839
The Sydney Gazette of 14 May 1839 has The Mellish sailed from the Downs on the 17th January, with a cargo of merchandise for this port (ie Sydney) ... Agents : Messrs Hughes and Hosking ... (I think these were Sydney based and that Hosking was related to Hughes ie J T Hughes, who was one of the leading benefactors to Christ Church St Laurence, donated the land etc)... That same paper 16 May 1839 indicates Mellish sailed direct from the Downs to Sydney, but it has sailing date as 10 Jan ::) ::)
Sydney Monitor 5 June 1839 Ships in Port Jackson (ie Sydney) Mellish 500 tons Captain Jones in stream "just arrived" and same paper page 5 lists names of passengers including Mr and Mrs Cates and two children. Interesting story in that issue ! At Lisbon (she had to get there because of a significant leak) Portugese corvette was burned... HM ships needed to fire at that burning vessel after rescuing its crew (I presume they needed to sink the burning vessel to stop it drifting into other shipping in port)
Sydney Gazette 6 June 1839 has Mr and Mrs Cates and three children (the Monitor says TWO)
There was a special herd of cattle on board as per Sydney Herald of 10 June 1839 for a "spirited colonalist named John Brown ... Ummm... could that be the same John Brown who was a pew holder at St Laurence around that time :D .... and lots and lots of hats were part of the cargo too ..... as per The Australian 20 June 1839
Cheers, JM
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Possibly a side track but
NZ Papers Past http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast
Star , Issue 1829, 10 January 1874, Page 2
MARRIAGE.
Cates—Buchanan.— April 22, 1873, at the Wesleyan Chapel, Pareora, near Timaru, Charles Cates to Annie M. Buchanan.
I'm not sure why it took nine months for someone to hand that info into the newspaper ::) and according to NZ BDM online, Charles Collier Cates married Annie Maria Buchanan on 22 April 1873 ... the ref is 1873/9721 ... alas, I can't find any children registered in NZ for that couple
Cheers, JM
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MMmm.. Oh Dear. :D
I still do not know whether the CHARLES COLLIER CATES is related (as JM says, it could be off the mark entirely) but a bit of a mess with the marriage I think
27 November 1873
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0aol/
Sue
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What a calamity, well found Sue :D
On the pilot site's beta version, there's a marriage in 1865 for a Charles Collier CATES registered at Dublin South .... I have not found the name of the bride for that one ::) (edit see next post, found) and of course I haven't found the names of the parents of that Charles Collier Cates :D but I have found a Charles Collier Cates as the father of the bride for an 1867 marriage ;D and there's scant info showing for the bride or groom ::) ::) BOTH SEEM TO BE EXTRACTED RECORDS .... could be same Charles Collier Cates, or perhaps father and son ;)
https://beta.familysearch.org/
CATES, female (no groom details at all)
Marriage date: 11 Mar 1867
Birthplace: 0781,DONNYBROOK,DUBLIN,IRELAND
Father's Name: Charles Collier Cates
Mother's Name: Annabelle Marion Flood
Cheers, JM
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Re 1865 marriage ... Found this also on that pilot site ;D
Groom's Name: Charles Collier Cates
Marriage Date: 05 Dec 1865
Marriage Place: Donnybrook, Dub, Ireland
Groom's Father's Name: John Cates ;)
Bride's Name: Annabell Marian Flood
Bride's Father's Name: Benjamin Flood
Groom's Marital Status: Widowed
Groom's Previous Wife's Name: JM notes that there's NOTHING RECORDED ON THIS INDEX
Bride's Marital Status: Single
Cheers, JM
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:)
Don't forget that 31 Oct 1840 a son was born to John and Elizabeth CATES and he was baptised at St Laurence in Sydney and named Charles Collier CATES ;D (pilot/beta site) EDIT on 13 Dec 2010 FIRST NAME reads George, not Charles .... my mistooken, sorry JM
NSW BDM online index has this as V1840725 26A/1840 Charles C CATES with parents John and Elizabeth A
and I'm sure volume 26A would be St Laurence. Ancestry has same V reference and shows it as at MF which is the NSW BDM's Early Church Records code for "Church of England Sydney, St Lawrence's" (I am very very certain this is Christ Church St Laurence, where various of my forebears attended, married, had their children baptised etc in the 1840's and 1850's)
Terry, V18400725 26A/1840 .... V is the Volume number in NSW BDM records V1840 ie the year V18400725 ie line 725 in the volume V18400725 26A/1840 26A being the volume, and 1840 the 'double check' for the year (although the event being recorded is the actual baptism of 1842, when NSW BDM was setting up these computerised indexes in the 1980's they continued with the practice of indexing the year of the Birth where it was included on the PR's) ....
Cheers, JM
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Sue found (reply #8) a NSW marriage for a Charles C Cates
3689/1888 CATES CHARLES C to WOODWARD SARAH registered at GOULBURN
and there's a birth at NEWCASTLE (which is quite a hike from Goulburn) in 1889 of a daughter named Elizabeth A (perhaps named for wife of John Cates, the surgeon). The parents for that lass: Charles C and Sarah ref 29905/1889.
Terry, many of the parish records for the Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle are online ;D and the links for those images are at RChat's NSW Resources Board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369703.0.html
which leads to these
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ 1820 – 1899 Family Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605008173551/ 1826 – 1837 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157604433014652/ 1837 – 1838 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605132739200/ 1839 – 1861 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605674610949/ 1856 – 1868 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605785759029/ 1869 – 1885 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605802132868/ 1885 – 1897 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606197590347/ 1899 – 1913 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605928662968/ 1913 – 1914 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606308436455/ 1914 – 1916 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606323070651/ 1916 – 1918 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606450662513/ 1918 – 1929 Marriage Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606952230042/ 1929 – 1936 Marriages Register
Cheers, JM
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;D
Found a UK record for Charles Collier Cates and this matches up with
Death Reg.5930 In1893 CATES CHARLES C Father JOHN ELIZABETH A At GLEBE
CATES Charles Collier of Forest-lodge* near Sydney New South Wales manufacturer died 12 May 1893 Administration (with Will) (Limited) London 13 January * to John Hammond Galbraith solicitor the attorney of David Dunlop Rutledge and Alexander Canty Effects £88 8s 7d
* Forest Lodge is inner west suburb of Sydney, off Parramatta Road, near Sydney Uni... Forest Lodge and Glebe are suburbs next to each other !
** 1897 is the year this appears on the UK Probate index ...
Cheers, JM
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Good tracking JM ;) ;)
The man just loved getting married.
This item in the Sydney morning Herald relates also to the estate of CHARLES CATES.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13920430?searchTerm="charles cates"&searchLimits=
Sue
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Re that insolvency estate from the SMH that Sue has found ... I'm presuming to refers to the same Charles Cates of Albury whose Sequestration dated 23 June 1887 was released 24 April 1893. He was a commission agent and that definitely indicates to me that he was a traveller
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx
Terry, Albury is around 350 miles south of Sydney, its inland, near the border with Victoria ... it was serviced by main railway line back to Sydney from about 1881.
NB, I have forebears who were at Forest Lodge from 1871 until post WWI, so I've some reference books to check, but Charles does not seem to be residing at Forest Lodge in 1891 as he's not listed in the 1892 edition street directory that I have handy...
He died shortly after that insolvency hearing and it seems he had 88 quid after sorting that out.
Cheers, JM
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Possible info returning to Australia c 1859
Thinking outside the square, looked for GATES instead of CATES
There's a Charles GATES indexed as being aged 18 (b Oct 1840 = 18 as at May 1859) arrived into Melbourne 8 May 1859 on ship KENT, from Gravesend
ALSO 1892 :D
Theres a Mr G Collier CATES aged 29 arriving into Melbourne in Oct 1892 ex the Orizaba (presume transcript error ... handwritten "G" and "C" issue...)
http://www.prov.vic.gov.au/indexes/index_search_results.asp
Terry, please .. any clues as to significance of "Collier" as a middle name
Cheers, JM
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Re 1892 Ozibana voyage
Good write up with lots of info in SMH of Tuesday 25 October 1892 including exact hour and date at various ports http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13883696 arrived Albany WA, then Adelaide SA thence Melbourne Vic and then to Sydney arriving at 8 a.m. on 24 Oct ... so that explains why I couldn't find him at Forest Lodge in 1892 directory ... he was in England and then "all at sea" ... Obviously Sequestration in NSW did not restrain one from leaving the colony. (I learn something new every day) ...
:D
IF only there was that much detail in the newspapers of the 1850's perhaps we would know if Dr John Cates et al returned to Sydney ...
Cheers, JM
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Just adding a basic annotation here which nonethe less, is important for the record :)
Death of
ELIZABETH ANN RICHARDSON
REG. 26019/1977
Father CHARLES COLLIER
Mother SARA
In NSW
Sue
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:)
And from Ryerson Index http://www.ryersonindex.org/
RICHARDSON Elizabeth Ann
Death 30 OCT1977 at 88 late of Lakemba
newspaper notice in Sydney Morning Herald 31OCT1977
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Hi JM and Sue,
WOW you have been busy and a lot to take in.
So need to review,
JM I think the confusion with 2 and 3 children on Mellish is to do with Humphrey being born on board or about to be born. What do you both think?
Also I think we are getting confused with two sons due to the middle name Collier. I think Charles Collier Cates was born in England and came over on Mellish, I need to find his birth in UK and try and work out the Collier link.
George Collier Cates was then born in NSW in 1840.
So for Charles Collier Cates we have
Born Uk, Came to Australia 1839, have a feeling he didn't return to Uk in 1850 on Mary White but could have.
Between 1850 and 1865 he gets married somewhere and wife dies and he ends up in Ireland in 1865 when he marries Annabel Flood.
(1867 marriage in dublin cant be right, the female Cates who married cant be daughter of both Charles and Annabel, (even they cant produce that quickly) ::) Charles daughter from prev marriage or Annabel daughter who took Cates name.)
Between 1865 and 1873 Charles makes his way to New Zealand and marries Annie Buchanan on 22/5/1873 probably bigamously.
Then in 1888 marries Sarah Woodward in Goulborn and has daughter Elizabeth 1889 in Newcastle and son Charles Augustus 1890 who says he born in Dunedin NZ when he enlists in 1915.
As we cant pin Charles down in late 80's /early 90's I think he travelling around NA/AUS perhaps still trying to sell his Conqueror Washing Powder until it all goes wrong and he ends up insolvent and then dies in 1893 in Glebe, Sydney.
Sarah remarries 1893.
Elizabeth and Charles A put in asylum 1895.
What do you both think of above?
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JM
With regards the Orizaba and Kent ships these are very confusing and I reckon they could be red herrings to where we are at mo.
Charles Gates on Kent in 1859 - its George Collier Cates who is 18 in 1859 not Charles so very doubtful.
The Collier Cates on Orizaba is very likely to be associated with this family but George would be 42 not 29 in 1892 and Charles would be 60's.
ARGHH have we got another Cates with the name Collier!!!!
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I went on the PROV site to check the George Collier Cates entry which definitely says 29(wrong age for us) but just looked at other lists.
Now I reckon Charles Collier Cates was born 1835-1837 and thats why I am having trouble with his birth as UK records online 1837 onwards. If we could track down his age from elsewhere it would be helpful.
However back to case in point I have found a C C Cates age 24 in Feb 1862 travelling from Victoria to Otago, New Zealand on Chariot of Fame. Could be our travelling Charles Collier.
This story gets bigger and bigger !!!!
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;D and bigger !
I'll ponder over your remarks, although I think there's two different Irish marriages, ie four people ... perhaps one couple were middle aged or older :) Please check it out, as the 1865 marriage was for Charles Collier Cates to Annabelle Flood with his father being John Cates while the 1867 marriage notes the BRIDES parents as Charles Collier Cates and Annabelle Flood. https://beta.familysearch.org/
:P
☻ Also I am convinced that Charles Collier Cates, son of John Cates was born NSW in and thus could NOT have been onboard the Mellish on its way to NSW in 1839 ....
☻ Also Humphrey was born two months AFTER the ship arrived in Sydney and he didn't survive his infancy :'(
☻ And there's the conflicting newspapers reporting as to how many children came with John and Elizabeth ... 2 or 3 ... BUT have I left you any children to have come on that voyage
::) Oh well .... Here's the promised BIGGER .... Charles Augustus Cates was NOT born in NZ ... maybe his mum and step-dad took CAC and sister to NZ after Charles Collier Cates' death !
1890 November 14 birth in Queensland ! https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/BirIndexQry.m
Charles Augustus CATES to Charles Collier Cates and Sarah Woodward with ref 1890/C4835 (Terry, the "C" indicates this was C for Country ie NOT in Brisbane the capital city of Qld)
I had the birth of the Girl in 1889 but cant find the birth of the son which from your info should have been in 1890. Am I asuming right ?TERRY
I am not able to locate the birth of CHARLES AUGUSTUS in NSW or VICTORIA .
His death (above) at least confirms he was the child of Charles C and Sarah
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM
Thanks for your patience and continued help.
By the way I have emailed Christchurch st Laurance Church so hopefully there achivist will be able to help.
Brilliant news on Charles Augustus 's birth, thank you again.
With regards Humphrey, sorry i wasnt aware he had died in infancy , where did you find that info?
Also we have no records of Charles Collier being born in NSW and unfortunately I cant find birth in Uk either. However I am sure the two boys who came over were William and Charles.
With regards the Irish marriage, i can find the 1865 marraige and I am sure that is our man. Cant get the female cates marrage in 1867 to appear at all when I search the link you gave me and i think that must be a dud record. I cannot think that a Charles Collier Cates would have married an Anabell Flood 20 or so years after another Charles collier Cates and Annabel Flood had married which is what would have had to have happened for a daughter Cates with those parents to have maried in 1867.
Terry
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Hi Terry
NSW BDM online index, search deaths 1839 under Cates :(
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/searchHistoricalRecords.htm V1839891 23A/1839 (I think Vol 23 would probably be for St Johns C of E and with burial at Parramatta) . http://members.optushome.com.au/sab/churches/stjohncem.html
http://www.discoverparramatta.com/places/heritage_and_historic_sites/st._johns_cemetery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parramatta,_New_South_Wales
Re the names of the children who came to NSW in 1839, I think I was confusing myself shhhhhhhh :-X I think I was confusing George with Charles .... Shhhhhhhhh ;)
Re the Irish marriage 05 Dec 1865 the Groom was WIDOWER and named as Charles Collier CATES. The Bride was SINGLE and named as Annabell Marian Flood. Groom's father was named as John CATES. Bride's father named as Benjamin FLOOD. The ceremony happened at Donnybrook, Dub, Ireland.
Agh .... found the 1867 event.... it was for a baptism ... Phew .... a female with surname CATES (given name not recorded) ... parents were named as Charles Collier CATES and Annabelle Marion FLOOD. Ceremony on 11 Mar 1867 at Donnybrook... So did Annabelle and Charles go together to NZ where he then married Annie Buchanan (overlooking the fact that Annabelle was still living ... What happened to Annabelle or their child .... there are so many questions, and its so very very early here (not yet 4:00 am) ...
Cheers, JM (PS, I hope the archivist is able to help)
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Hi JM
Thanks again and I now know Humphrey died, although i am still very interested in his situation.
Lets hope the archivist can help because the index entries being
Birth V1838729 23A suggests 1838 birth
Death V1839891 23A
are very interesting and different from what the church records suggest
with the birth August 1839.
I still cant see why he wasnt born on board and registered as an amendment when they got to Sydney, christened and then died. But thats me just making the story up I suppose. It fits the number of master cates 2 or 3.
Thanks to you we now know that Charles and Annabel had a daughter in 1867 and thank goodness :Dthere weren't two Charles Collier Cates, its getting confusing enough ::)
With regard what he did to Annabel. I dont know the answer to that but suggest he left her, lost touch with her and then assumed or hoped she had died when he made his bigamous marraige.
I am now on the hunt for Annabel Cates.
Will let you know how i get on.
Terry
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This may be the birth Sarah Woodward, It is located in the right geographical are for the marriage to CHARLES which followed.
Reg10712 In 1869
WOODWARD SARAH
Father JAMES
Mother ELIZABETH
At GOULBURN
EDIT
I have deleted a large section of this post because, after further research, I found it to be erroneous information. Apologies :(
Sue
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Hi there,
Re Charles Collier CATES, son of John Cates ....
Charles details re his own place of birth and also his age should be detailed on any birth registration for his children born in NSW (of course it depends on the knowledge of the informant and the indexes do NOT include that level of detail) ....
So we have NOT YET found Charles Collier CATES earliest marriage .... and it could be anywheres ! Civil Registrations commenced in NSW 1856, BUT NSW marriage records took much much longer to get registered, and there's many from that era that have YET to be found on NSW civil registrations (or if there are missing lots of 'genie' info) .... These are of course 'findable' through the local parish records BUT ..... where each set of PRs are currently located .... 'that is the question'. Also there's the transcriber errors that may creep in with surname such at Cates .... Gates/Catts/Cater/Cotts/Coter/Lates/Eates etc ... Hopefully that type of error did not develop around this Charles Collier Cates as there's likely to be three capitalised "C" in the one hand.
Fingers crossed :)
Cheers, JM
-
Hi there,
Re William John CATES, son of John Cates, Surgeon
Do you think William could have married in NSW ? There's a marriage in 1857 of a William J Cates to a Harriet ROSE registered in Sydney ref 293/1857 ...
and there's the 8 Nov 1833 baptism of William John, son of John and Elizabeth, he a Surgeon, they of 66 Margaret St at St Marylebone, Westminster. William born 8 April 1833.
If this is your William, ;D then when did he return to NSW ...... and was Charles Collier Cates with him .... :D
Cheers, JM
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Hi Terry,
Do you have the following ?
Baptisms at St Marylebone :
Elizabeth Ann CATES, born 29 March 1832 baptised 26 June 1832, to John and Elizabeth Cates of 60 Margaret St, he a Surgeon
Henry John CATES, born 11 Sept 1834, baptised 8 Oct 1834 to John and Elizabeth of 66 Margaret St, he a Surgeon
Cheers, JM (trying to find Charles Collier C ;D )
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Hi, :) Now this is confusing ;D ;D
There's Charles Augustus Cates WWI record as enlisting in Aust, with his n o k being his married sister Elizabeth Amy RICHARDSON, stating he was born Dunedin NZ, but it turns out he was born in Queensland) WELL here's a lad who claims to have been born in Qld, when he enlisted in NZ but he WERE NOT BORN IN QLD ....
The New Zealand Archives has a Charles CATES born Tambo Qld 3 Aug 1893 (that's what the NZ file has) enlisted for WWI on 18 August 1914 and served at Gallipoli. His next of kin recorded as Mr R Cates, Auckland NZ.
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/SimpleSearchResults.do
CATES, Charles - WW1 3/162a - Army (pdf file has 33 pages, and is abt 7 meg)
I note that the only QLD birth on the Qld BDM online index with the surname CATES between 1880 and 1900 is Charles Augustus CATES .... so after checking again, I confirm that Charles Augustus CATES, son of Charles Collier CATES and Sarah Woodward was registered with the birthdate of 14 November 1890. And I have not found a Qld birth for the Charles Cates who enlisted in NZ.
Cheers, :D :D JM
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Hi,
A snippet about a Charles Collier Cates in an 1874 NZ newspaper.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=TS18731127.2.2.1&srpos=2&e=-------10--1----0charles+collier+cates--
It indicates that Charles was already married with a wife in England when he married Miss Buchanan in NZ in 1873.
Gerry
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Hello all,
Great work !
From Victoria:
Charles Collier CATES { b Sydney} married Margaret Mary RYAN { b Tipperary} 1879 # 3735
Can't see any children
Margaret Mary Alouius CATE d 1927 aged 77 Northcote- William RYAN and Mary O'BRIEN # 7141
Electoral Roll
1924 :
Margaret Mary CATES 11 Lara St South Yarra- Invalid
No sign of Charles after the marriage :D
Regards
Alison
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:) ::) ::) :P
Another wife for this son of John CATES, surgeon and yet we haven't found birth details for Charles Collier CATES .... but it could well be Sydney as per Alison's post.
1. So there's a marriage back sometime BEFORE 1865, somewhere but not sure where
2. Ireland in 1865 to Miss Flood
3. New Zealand in 1873 to Miss Buchanan
4. Victoria in1879 to Miss O'Brien
5. NSW in 1888 to Miss Woodland
Perhaps Terry has a plastic card and may have some spare pennies he may be interested to learn that plastic cards can be used to obtain immediate image of the 1879 marriage. Alison has provided the reference number
WELL FOUND ALISON :).
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=getHistIdxSearchCriteria
INFO usually found on Victoria marriages is fantastic (Here's a snip from the RChat Resources Board)
Marriages
Date and place of marriage;
name and surnames;
conjugal condition, whether bachelor or spinster, widow or widower,
stating date of decease of former wife or husband;
children by each former marriage;
birthplace;
occupation;
age;
residence (present and usual);
parent's names of each party (including mother's maiden name) and occupation of father;
signatures of the parties and witnesses;
signature of Minister. Prior to 1963 the date of termination of previous marriages of the parties is also shown.
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Hi All
A snippet about a Charles Collier Cates in an 1874 NZ newspaper.
We well and truly have this :D
And, as a finding, it has been already built upon
MMmm.. Oh Dear. :D
I still do not know whether the CHARLES COLLIER CATES is related (as JM says, it could be off the mark entirely) but a bit of a mess with the marriage I think
27 November 1873
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0aol/
Sue
Reply #37
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Hi all
More Wonderful info ;D
Sue- Thanks for the birth of Sarah Woodward.
JM - That certainly is my William John, he was in England for the 1861 census so returned on Mary White I reckon, As for the marraige in 1857, it could be knowing this family, although on 1861 census says unmarried.
Also Elizabeth Ann 1832 and Henry John 1834 look like mine(not very original on middle names were they) .
Where is Charles Collier birth, well John Cates was born 1799 so I reckon 1830/1 or 1835/6, and if he didnt sail out in 1850 I favour early one. Still fancy he was born in uk rather than Sydney even tho marraige to Margaret Ryan says born Sydney.
As you quite rightly say we also need his first marraige pre 1865. quite a lad our Charles.
Also thanks to you we now have Charles Augustus as a Queenslander.
Alison - Many thanks for the marraige info in Victoria.
I need to get this all in logical sequence in my head and on paper and then get to work narrowing even more down, But I bet the story will increase again soon :o
Terry
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Hi there,
COLLIER
I'm attaching a snip because I am not certain of the surname for a witness. Elizabeth Ann CATES married in June 1856, St Leonards, Shoreditch, Hackney. Her father was recorded as John CATES, Surgeon, and she was 24, all pointing to Terry's John Cates.
One of the witnesses signatures 'could' be Eliza Martha Collier, here's the snip .... do you think that signature reads "COLLIER"
Fingers crossed that will help find birth details for Charles Collier CATES, son of John :)
Cheers, JM
-
Could be JM!
Can you possibly post another bit that contains the letter R in a different context?
Sue
-
There is this death....
Deaths Mar 1890
Collier Eliza Martha aged 75 at Portsea vol 2b pg 375
which shows, at least, such a person was in England
;)
Sue
-
:)
Re the signature .... anywhere's else on that marriage is not in that handwriting ;) and there's that 'odd' flourish concluding the signature, but otherwise I read it as Collier...
I think it could be that Eliza Martha Collier was born Eliza Martha KAIN .... and I think KAIN was the maiden surname for Elizabeth, wife of John CATES, the surgeon :)
I think there's a KAIN - COLLIER marriage to look for ;)
Back shortly ;D ;D
Edit to Add
Good old PALLOT .... John Dowsett COLLIER to Eliza Martha KAIN 1835 at Topsham
Cheers, JM
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.......... Deaths Mar 1890
Collier Eliza Martha aged 75 at Portsea vol 2b pg 375 ..........
And 1881 UK Census supports that....
87 Palmerston Road Portsea
John Dowsett Collier, 68 born Romford Essex Inland Revenue Pensioner
Eliza Martha Collier wife 65 b Limehouse Middlesex
Eliza Mary Ann Collier, daur, 43 b Romford
-
I think it could be that Eliza Martha Collier was born Eliza Martha KAIN .... and I think KAIN was the maiden surname for Elizabeth, wife of JM
Which of course brings us back to the second given name of this child whose mistranscription we have discussed earlier.
In 1844 CATES SUSAN E =K Kain
Father JOHN
ELIZABETH A
Reg1844677 28 In 1844
Sue
-
I agree Sue :), Susan Kain CATES is recorded on the IGI extracted 18 March 1844, C of E, NSW Australia, dau of John and Elizabeth...
Still looking for Charles Collier CATES, son of John the Surgeon
BUT found John Cates COLLIER, son of John Dowsett Collier and Eliza Martha
registered July-Sept 1839 Vol 12 page 217 registered Romford, Essex
Cheers, JM
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:) :) :)
A photo of Charles CATES, son of Charles CATES (ie photo of Charles Augustus, son of Charles Collier, ie grandson of John the Surgeon)
I'm fairly confident it would be a photo of Charles Augustus CATES although the date of birth is noted as 25 Dec 1895 :D it does show his next of kin as his sister Mrs F Richardson, and I'm sure Sue has found that would be his sister !
http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemDetailPaged.aspx?itemID=430934
If that link does not work, then try using the following link to Picture Australia and entering the keywords "Charles Cates" http://www.pictureaustralia.org/
NB photo taken after enlistment as he is in his AIF uniform.
Cheers, JM
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Following up on #32 & 33
SMH Tuesday 15 July 1941 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/17756959 Gordon Charles RICHARDSON aged 28, result of Accident (He would be great grandson of John Cates, Surgeon)
NSW BDM online show that Gordon Charles Richardson was a married man. His widow remarried 1948. Details for her passing in Oct 1985 are indexed at Ryerson http://www.ryersonindex.org/
SMH Monday 10 October 1921 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15975409 Frank Ernest RICHARDSON (brother to Gordon) notice that suburb boundaries have changed and "Allowera" Morton St has become Lakemba.
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM and Sue,
You two are troopers, from your latest work I now have John Cates daughter's marraige and the reason for Kain and Collier middle names. To date I have John Cates surgeon's children as Elizabeth Ann 1832, William John born 1833, Henry EDIT :Joseph in 1834, Humphrey Gwynne 1838/9, George Collier, 1840, Susan Kain 1844 and my link James Samuel born 1852 and of course the enigma Charles Collier Cates ????.
In respect of Charles Augustus Cates I read all your posts as saying he was born in Queensland in 1890 , put into Randwick Asylum with sister Elizabeth Ann in 1895 then joined up in 1915 saying he was born Dunedin in New Zealand when in fact he wasnt. served with Camel Corp in Greece, and Abysinnia,discharged medically unfit Oct 1916. Then reenlisted with AIF 1917 and discharged Mar 1919. The added bonus is the photo, wonderful.
Also more news of the Richardsons is superb.
Many thanks
Terry
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Another link of the Cates/Collier families. A John Cates Collier acting for a bankrupt in 1879.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/24677/pages/722/page.pdf
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Hi Terry
We have a friend in the Australian group who regularly visits the National Library in Canberra where newspapers are archived.
As we have an exact date for the death of ELIZABETH RICHARDSON, she may be able to look up the details of the newspaper notice for you.
I have popped the notice from RYERSON INDEX up again although I know you have it already.
If Judith does not see this request, I will draw her attention to it. We all understand what a busy time of year it is for all, but maybe, at some stage, she can help.
Death Notice
RICHARDSON Elizabeth Ann
30 OCT 1977 Death 88
Late of Lakemba
Paper Sydney Morning Herald
Published 31OCT1977
Sue
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Sue and JM, or anybody else taking an interest in this story
Can I throw this at you for your advice.
Bear in mind previous post aka
"However back to case in point I have found a C C Cates age 24 in Feb 1862 travelling from Victoria to Otago, New Zealand on Chariot of Fame. Could be our travelling Charles Collier."
That would put Charles Collier Cates as being born 1838 when the family were travelling to Australia. Could it be that he was born just before family left or on board the Mellish and that he was never registered in UK or Australia.
Possible ?
Sue thanks for your help in getting further details for Elizabeth Ann Richardson.
-
:)
Yes, that could well be CCC :) to NZ :)
Also, fingers crossed on the ryerson index :) I'll see what I can find on the electoral rolls :)
Cheers, JM
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Re Elizabeth Ann CATES sister to Charles Augustus Cates
Her husband, Frank Richardson died1928 (NSW BDM ref 9386/1928 registered Newtown district)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16469914 SMH 5 June 1928, has the address as Morton St Lakemba
The electoral rolls up to 1954 are not helping me find her : :(
Cheers, JM
-
RICHARDSON
http://rookwoodcemetery.com.au/index.php
Rookwood Cemetery C of E Section 6 Row 10 Plot 2066 and 2067
Frank Ernest aged 10, 8 October 1921
Frank, aged 46, 3 June 1928
Elizabeth Ann aged 88, 30 October 1977 " our mother, mother in law & grandmother"
JM
-
Re Feb 1862 Chariot of Fame (White Star line) .... 24 year old C C Cates etc (noting that there's various reminders on many threads re inaccuracies in the shipping records throughout Australia, including the Victorian index) ....
Also noting CCC had to be back in Ireland to marry there in Dec 1865, but that would be his second marriage ... first could have been anywheres !
NZ papers past http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast
From UK departing Oct 1861 to Melbourne arriving Jan 1862
From Melbourne 1 Feb 1862 to Otago as per Otago Daily Times , Issue 77, 13 February 1862, Page 2
Arrived Otago 22 Feb from Melbourne as per Otago Witness , Issue 635, 1 March 1862, Page 5 with 100 passengers. Captain Kerr, 1640 tons, BUT I have not found any passenger list ::)
Return from NZ to England Otago Daily Times , Issue 94, 5 March 1862, Page 4 &
Otago Daily Times , Issue 104, 17 March 1862, Page 4
Still in NZ and attracting visitors Otago Daily Times , Issue 130, 16 April 1862, Page 4
Departing for London with 12 passengers, 3585 bales of wool and 13,600 oz of G O L D, Otago Daily Times , Issue 162, 23 May 1862, Page 4
Arrived England around 22 August 1862 Daily Southern Cross, Volume XVIII, Issue 1639, 22 October 1862, Page 3
Cheers, JM
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I feel as if I have missed something here :o
This quote from TERRY
That would put Charles Collier Cates as being born 1838 when the family were travelling to Australia. Could it be that he was born just before family left or on board the Mellish and that he was never registered in UK or Australia TERRY
Quote from JM
Don't forget that 31 Oct 1840 a son was born to John and Elizabeth CATES and he was baptised at St Laurence in Sydney and named Charles Collier CATES (pilot/beta site)
NSW BDM online index has this as V1840725 26A/1840 Charles C CATES with parents John and Elizabeth A
and I'm sure volume 26A would be St Laurence
Why is this not OK as the birth?
Sue
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Cause I was confused and only made it more confusing... it was George Collier CATES who was born Oct 1840 in Sydney and baptised 20 May 1842 at St Laurence .... :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
:) I've re-checked, yes it was NOT Charles Collier CATES, and Yes, BUT it was George Collier CATES on those 1840/42 birth/baptismal indexes....
So, what happened to George born 1840 .... HE WAS NOT LISTED as part of the household for John and Elizabeth CATES in 1861 RG9; 155; 92; 15 although William and Sarah (K for Kain) were there with their mum and dad at 4 Bath Place Hackney
Do you think that George Collier Cates could have changed his name to Charles Collier Cates .... ? perhaps say after a first marriage somewheres before Dec 1865?
Cheers,
JM
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Thanks JM.
I get it now ;)
Sue
-
Sydney Morning Herald, Monday 31 October, 1977
Death Notices
RICHARDSON, Elizabeth Ann. October 30, 1977, at hospital, late of Lakemba, beloved wife of Frank(dec), loved mother and mother-in-law of Walter, Colin, Donald, Kathy and June, fond grandmother of Lee and dear sister of Charles, aged 88 years. At Rest.
Thanks, Sue for letting me know about this one. I had missed the beginning of the thread so hadn't been following it. ;D
Judith
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Thank you Judith, much appreciated
Not sure if mentioned previously
Ryerson Index gives SMH of 3 July 1978 for her brother Charles.
Charles Augustus CATES, late of Camperdown, aged 87 d of d 1 July 1978
NSW BDM online gives ref 14743/1978 gives his parents as Charles and Sarah...
Again, many thanks Judith
Cheers, JM
-
Sydney Morning Herald, 3 July, 1978
Death Notices:
CATES, Charles Augustus - July 1, at hospital , of Purkiss St, Camperdown, dearly loved husband of the late Gladys Cates, loved father of Ruby and Russell, fond father-in-law of George and Beryl, dear grandfather and great-grandfather of their families. Loved brother of Elizabeth Richardson. Aged 87 years. At rest.
Funeral on July 4 at Rookwood Crematorium.
;D Judith
-
Thanks Judith :) ;D (EDIT TO ADD, access to Rookwood C of E website is temp unavailable)
Hi Terry,
NSW Police Gazette 4 May 1887 page 174
Albury.-A warrant has been issued by the Albury Bench for the arrest of Frank Barrett, charged with stealing the sum of £3 lls. 6d., the money of Charles Cates, at Albury, on or about the 17th ultimo. Offender is about 40 years of age, 5 feet 7 inches high, medium build, dark hair turning gray; a native of Sydney.
Unfortunately it doesn't give a description of Charles Cates, :) but it does place him in the Albury district in the 'right' timeframe for this being Charles, son of John the Surgeon...
Cheers, JM
-
Thanks, Judith for the newspaper lookups :)
CHARLES Jnr's daughter, RUBY, and her husband GEORGE ASSENHEIM died in in the 1980's
There is a second world war service summary for RUSSELL.
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/script/name.asp
Sue
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Thanks Sue :)
Ruby married in 1941, registered at Annandale (inner west suburb of Sydney) ref 17942/1941
Ruby Eileen Blanche and George Seymour Assenheim were at 901 Punchbowl Rd, Punchbowl in 1949 and1954. He a technician.
The couple were living at 4 Purkis St Camperdown in 1943, ;) same address as her mum and dad who was a watchmaker.
Ryerson Index
Ruby d o d 1 Aug 1982 aged 61 late of Punchbowl SMH 4 Aug 1982
George d o d 18 May 1989 aged 74, late of Blacktown, formerly of Punchbowl SMH 20 Aug 1982
Cheers, JM
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More superb info and more thanks to Sue, Jm and Judith.
Just to let you know Charles Collier Cates elder sister Elizabeth Ann married a Wine Merchants son Juan de Uncilla from Bilbao in 1856 at St Leonards. They had one daughter Elizabeth Ann de Uncilla.
Brother William John(1833) still alive in 1891.
Terry
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Hi all,
I have had a response from the achivist at St Laurences and he confirms all our details for George Collier Cates and Susan Kain Cates are correct. Susan was born and christened on same day which he says is unusual, perhaps they thought she wasnt going to survive, although survive she did.
The story with Humphrey Gwynne Cates gets more confusing as no christening at St Laurences on 27th October 1839 in that name.
Unfortunately the archivist didnt give me any further info on the family so still searching for Charles Collier Cates birth. :(
Intersting in that their sibling and my direct line James Samuel Cates then ended up in the USA and died in Texas in 1925.
Also confirm John Cates married Elizabeth Cain so we were right.
-
I can't help at all with your research but you have answered one of my puzzles - I am interested in the Collier family and had always wondered where the Cates in John Cates Collier's name came from - so thank you! :)
Sarah
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Hi All, especially Terry :D
As a follow up
...... so still searching for Charles Collier Cates birth. :( ......
,
11 September 1879 at the Registry Office in Gore Street, Fitzroy, Charles Collier CATES married Margaret Mary RYAN. The ceremony was conducted by the Registrar for Marriages, Adam Anderson. Reference : 3735 of 1879 Victoria BDM online index.
A transcript of the details that the registrar recorded for that marriage are as follows:
Charles Collier CATES, a bachelor, born Sydney NSW was aged 29, and he was living in Melbourne at the time of the marriage. He was a Mariner by occupation. His parents were John CATES, a surgeon and Elizabeth Kain.
Margaret Mary RYAN, a spinster, born in Tipperary, Ireland was aged 25 and she was living in Carlton. She was a Teacher by occupation. Her parents were William RYAN, a Farmer and Mary O’Brien.
According to the information they had provided to the Registrar, neither the bride nor the groom had any children either living or dead from any former marriage.
That transcript of that marriage certificate would suggest that Charles Collier CATES was born circa 1850, which is not supported by the NSW BDM index. If he was born in England at some time before to his parents migration in 1839, then I gently suggest that perhaps he fibbed re his age, lowering it at least 10 years to somewhat nearer his bride’s age. Perhaps his occupation would have been offered as a reason for any "weathering" of his facial features to anyone questioning if he was actually around 40 plus years of age in 1879.
Cheers, JM
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Hi Jm,
Many thanks for all the info below.
I agree with your hypothesis that Charles Collier Cates lied about his age and added 10 years to it. The reason being I am now pretty certain in my own mind, although I have no proof yet, that George Collier Cates born in sydney in 1840 and Charles Collier Cates are one and the same man. No records of Charles appear before 1865 and nothing of George at all except his birth at the moment. Also if 1850 was Charles birth date he would have been only fifteen when marrying for the second time in Dublin in 1865.
I am trying to find out details of George/Charles between 1850 and 1865 and pretty certain he in UK during this time. By the way his Father in Law in 1865 Benjamin Flood was from Louisville, Kentucky.
Also found 8 children of Surgeon John and Elizabeth Kain with George/Charles counted as one at mo. Last born two, including my link , ended up in Texas and both died there.
This family gets more interesting by the day.
Regards
Terry
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Hi there
I am related to Eliza Martha Kain, and noticed that her brother, Henry Allen Kain, had a child called Thomas Cates Kain and that a witness at Henry's wedding was Jack Cates. Can we share some information?
Chudleigh
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Hi chudleigh,
Sorry but the only info I still have on the surgeon is on the posts on this thread, sorry I cannot help more
Terry
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I have Margaret Mary Ryan who married Charles Collier Cates in 1879 in Victoria
I'm assuming (at this stage) that he'd previously married Annabelle Flood & Anna Buchanan & someone else prior to Annabelle.
I believe Charles died 1893 in Sydney but had been living in Albury. Margaret died 1927 in Northcote Vic
In 1878 there is a newspaper article stating he was blinded in one eye in a fight in Victoria. He was awarded money.
I haven't purchased Charles & Margaret's marriage certificate. Margaret was born 1846 in Anacarty Tipperary Ireland
Nor have I purchased Charles probate documents.
I haven't found any children born to this couple in Vic. But will check NSW.