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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: Sue15 on Monday 06 December 10 12:53 GMT (UK)
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Hello
This is not a family history enquiry - well not my family but I have been pondering on the point since watching a documentary about Operation Mincemeat last night aka " The Man who never was"
Essentially my question is this - Glyndwr Michael by all accounts lead a deprived life coming from Aberbargoed in Wales. It seems both his parents had predeceased him and he found his way to London and died of Rat poison as a homeless person. By any standards he had had a terrible life.
Major Bill Martin who Glyndwr Michael's copse masqueraded as - was a an Officer, Gentleman and a Royal Marine. Surely the life lead by Glyndwr Michael would not have presented the body of Bill Martin. I am thinking a Marine would be muscular and signs of a life from poverty would have been evident.
The name Glyndwr Michael was found in records released by the National Archives some years back. I wonder if this was a double deception - the name being deliberately planted to throw researchers off the track.
What does anyone think?
Interested to hear
Sue
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Hi Sue
Given that the body had been in the morgue for several months before being dumped in the sea, I suspect the finer points of his physique were no longer in evidence in any event. It did appear from the documentary that the pathologist was not thought to have done the most thorough of jobs on the post-mortem.
I thought it was a fascinating documentary :)
Anna
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An interesting question though Sue. Doesnt say very much for the German Secret Service either though.... I recorded the film as I havent seen it for some time. I havent watched it yet.
Dee :)
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Hi Sue15, what you have to remember is that you dont have to be muscular to be in the marines, but be fit and be able to do the job, and when you think about the war years as long as you were able to do the job you were in. I think the body would have been perfect for the mission as they would have wanted the body to seem that it had been dead for a few days and that it had been floating in the water for that time. :)
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Thank you for your replies. I can certainly follow your logic.
I still don;t quite know what to believe. It seems there is a website on the net that seems to be something to do with family of Glyndwr Michael although it was claimed he had no close ties. The website can be found by googling the name Glyndwr Michael and seems to suggest the family or descendants do not believe the story. This is what set me thinking
Food for thought and thank you for your help
sue
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I giggled when they said they had obtained some professors pants (knickers for the Americans not trousers) that had been left to the university to ensure that he had ones of the right quality. ;D
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I think that there was some question at the time,regarding the forensic evidence, but as was stated , the brits knew of this and the British Ambassador pushed the Spanish to complete and release the body .Thereby forestalling any investigation into the real cause of death.(which would have revealed death by poisoning and not drowning)
Not only had the body been in the morgue but in a torpedo tube and then in the sea...hardly in a state to be easily examined.
I remember seeing "The Man who Never Was" and then learning later his real identity.
The average person in those day knew nothing about forensic medicine, and it is only through TV programmes and crime books that we do today.In fact looking back, my first knowledge was of Sir Bernard Spilsbury a home office Pathologist who in court, demonstrated(By nearly drowning his secretary) how "The Brides in the Bath" murderer committed the deed
Spring
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I think that there was some question at the time,regarding the forensic evidence, but as was stated , the brits knew of this and the British Ambassador pushed the Spanish to complete and release the body .Thereby forestalling any investigation into the real cause of death.(which would have revealed death by poisoning and not drowning)
Not only had the body been in the morgue but in a torpedo tube and then in the sea...hardly in a state to be easily examined.
I remember seeing "The Man who Never Was" and then learning later his real identity.
The average person in those day knew nothing about forensic medicine, and it is only through TV programmes and crime books that we do today.In fact looking back, my first knowledge was of Sir Bernard Spilsbury a home office Pathologist who in court, demonstrated(By nearly drowning his secretary) how "The Brides in the Bath" murderer committed the deed
Spring
Don't want to be too pedantic but he was not in a torpedo tube at any time although kept in a cylindrical container whilst on the submarine. It wasn't Spilsbury's secretary but a woman swimmer who nearly drowned and it wasn't Spilsbury that conducted the experiment anyway It was a policeman by the name of Neal. The film made out that the corpse would have had to die from pneumonia to mimic drowning but this was not the case. Artistic licence I suppose?
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Thanks Certacito ,
always open to correction of my "Chinese Whispers" Shows how we should question all our relations certanties!!
Spring
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There is, of course, the suggestion that the body that was used was that of a drowned sailor from HMS Dasher that sank off the Scottish coast at just the right time. That body would have been in much better physical shape than Michael's and much more convincing because death had genuinely been from drowning.
Conspiracy theorists have it that the true identity of the corpse was not disclosed because it was"simply not British", even in wartime, to go round pinching bodies that didn't belong to you albeit for such an altruistic reason. Allowing it to be assumed that the body was that of someone from the lower social orders and, whether we care to admit or not, less valued may have simply been a device, a double bluff to fool the Germans and the British public, in order to avoid controversy.
Short of acquiring some DNA from the remains of the man who never was and comparing it with samples from relatives of some of the Dasher candidates( there was more than one) I can't see how we can resolve the problem.
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Many thanks for all your replies. There is much food for thought here. As Anydogsbody ( I feel awful calling you that) rightly states - short of a DNA test we can never be sure.
I personally think there was much double bluffing going on and the name left in the file to me was too obvious an act to be convincing. These people were past masters at deception so this is rather an elementary mistake if it was one.
I suppose at the end of the day - the ploy worked and the rest as they say is history.
Many thanks
Sue
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I have heard that there is going to be a film coming out soon, starring Colin Firth which will tell the story of 'Operation Mincemeat'.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9365200/operation-mincemeat-1943-invasion-of-sicily/
My deceased Dad took part in the invasion of Sicily during WW2, so I am particularly interested in going to see this film about this deception which made the outcome somewhat safer for service men like my Dad.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyndwr_Michael
http://www.themanwhoneverwas.com
What a sad end though for Welsh tramp Glyndyr Michael. It seems not to be known if he had committed suicide or had just been hungry and had perhaps found the scraps of bread laced with rat poison.
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Wonder if Glyndwr Michael's family don't like the fact he was a down and out, not good publicity for the family.
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Thank you for the interest in this topic.
There is a programme on BBC4 tonight 9pm about " The Man who never Was.
A couple of family trees for Glyndwr Michael on Ancestry.
Fascinating story
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... googling the name Glyndwr Michael and seems to suggest the family or descendants do not believe the story.
Families often don't believe stories, because they are often told another bit privately about what happened at the time
As Next of kin of deceased, what our family were told in our front rooms regarding one being "Missing" and by telephone about another, appear to be fairly truthful, or the truth of what they want to tell you.
However, these points were not mentioned at either of the official Inquiries. At a recent Inquiry the Health Service only sent a newly employed Doctor who knew nothing of the case and he simply read a prepared Statement to the Coroner and therefore could not answer questions about what we were told.
Regarding our "Missing" 'next of kin' he even has a 1940 English Death Certificate with a place of death in a field, which includes the road name, place and County. When I probed why the Death Certificate was issued in 1940, some Deaths were only "presumed" at the aircraft crash site. However only two of the five Aircrew were found and apparently flying the aircraft.
Mark