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Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: Carole in Dallas on Sunday 05 December 10 21:39 GMT (UK)
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I have started doing research into my English Lines...and have found books of Heraldry that have my relatives in them. Some of the families included the Wylde family from Worcester, the Tracy family from Stanway, the Barrow family from Wedmore. Viscount Robert Tracy II was a direct line of mine and I am still discovering other members on googlebooks.
How did a coat of arms get passed down...if you were a woman in this line, did you lose your family coat...and how is a crest different from a coat of arms?
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A full coat of arms is a shield plus the crest which is on top of the shield. The whole thing is known as an achievement of arms. A crest can be displayed on its own, but to have a crest, there must also be a shield.
If both the bride and groom were from armigerous families, then during their lifetimes, the two coats of arms might be marshalled i.e. shown in two halves of the shield. But their son would inherit only his father's arms. He was also supposed to keep the pedigree up to date at the College of Arms, if I remember correctly, to prove his right to bear arms. Only if the woman was an heiress where there were no sons to inherit, might the arms of her family be incorporated in some way into the arms of her husband e.g. quarters or impaling. It is a complicated and requires far more space than here.
A good heraldry book might help you. Check out your local reference library. ;)
Nell
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That definitely has helped me...thanks so much.
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Nell is essentially correct. In the heraldic traditions of England & Wales, Ireland and Scotland (three separate heraldic jurisdictions) the Arms follow the legitimate male descendants of the original armiger. Scottish heraldry does allow for the Arms to follow the surname – I’ll come back to Scotland’s peculiarities
Generally, where the male line expires the Arms can descend through daughter(s) to be quartered by her children with the Arms of her husband. She is known as a “heraldic heiress”, a status that is independent of any land or monies. It is quite possible for someone to become a “heraldic heiress” years after their death when a brother’s line becomes totally extinct in both the male & female line. In England & Wales, if such an heiress had married someone who was not armigerous, then her Arms would remain in limbo until such time as a descendent in the male line of hers obtain a Coat of Arms with which to quarter them.
In Scotland the Arms follow the surname. Thus it is quite possible for a daughter to pass on her father’s Arms to her offspring as their “main” Coat of Arms if both she and he carry her father’s surname. A case in point is the Lady Saltoun, Head of the Name and Arms of Fraser. Following the death of her only brother, she retained her paternal surname after marriage and so inherited her father’s Arms. She has had no sons and so her eldest daughter has also retained the Fraser surname after marriage. Another Scottish quirk is that, I believe, it is quite possible for a daughter to be designated the heraldic heir to Arms even if she has brothers.
As to the inheritance of Arms; In England & Wales and, I believe, in Ireland, all legitimate male descendants of the original armiger inherit the Arms. Recording their pedigree and/or applying marks of cadency to their Arms tend to be ignored. In Scotland only the eldest son (or designated heir) inherit as of right. Any siblings can use their father’s Arms differenced with a mark of cadency whilst under his roof. Once they have reached adulthood they have to apply to the Lyon Court for their own Arms.
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There is one stage which has been missed out in the descent of a coat of arms to a heraldic heiress. Once she inherits the arms and for the period while she is alive her shield will be shown on a small shield (an escutcheon) in the centre of her husbands shield.
These differences are particularly useful when interpreting hatchments (funeral shields) which are found in some old churches as they can show the order in which people died. However this is another subject.
David
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Further clarification....when the designation Esquire is placed at the end of the name, does that mean that individual had rights to a coat of arms? Is there only one male that is entitled to continue with that coat of arms?
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Another few questions...when you mentioned that the arms are quartered...what exactly does that mean? When I have done my searching in google books and have found books that were called Heraldry, it appeared to be a type of census record. Were these visitations, as they referred to them, made only of those that held a coat of arms? What was the significance and benefits of holding such arms?
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I'm afraid it is almost impossible to explain heraldry in a few posts. In the interim you might like to have look through:
Heraldry, ancient and modern : including Boutell's Heraldry (1890) (http://www.archive.org/details/heraldryancientm00boutrich)
The problem with heraldry is that the questions always seem to spring to mind. :)
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This truly has been fascinating...at times I feel as if I am reading an entirely different language, however . Just got finished perusing the book, "A Visitation of the Seats and Arms of the Noblemen and Gentlemen" written in 1853. All of my English Lines seem to be involved with this and I don't have a clue at understanding it. Deeply appreciative of the information you have given me. Thanks once again.
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Around 1600 visits (visitations) were made by the heralds from the college of arms about every 50 years to confirm that people who were using coats of arms were entitled to use them. Keeping it simple, these visits resulted in pedigrees of at least three generations being collected for each family.
These pedigrees together with a formal description of the coat of arms (a blazon) were published around 1900 by the Harleian Society and many of them can be found on line.
Soneone who used the title esquire was a gentleman. Many but not all gentlemen had coats of arms. The term derives from the rank of squire who was a young man who attended a knight and often was himself later knighted.
I would recommend that you get hold of a reference book on heraldry either from the library or if you can afford it purchase one. A good one will explain all the terminology, how a blazon is constructed etc. I use "Heraldry" by Stephen Friar which is a history Handbookpublished by Sutton Publishing but a new copy will probably cost about £20 now.
David
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I plan on purchasing that. This teminology is so foreign to us in the US, but it seems to be an integral part of my history. Thanks again for all of the help.
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Another book by Stephen Friar that I found very useful is his Dictionary of Heraldry.
The Visitations of the 17th & 18th century referred to by BTF were carried out by the Heralds from the College of Arms. The “modern” Visitations recorded in the 19th century by Messrs Howard and Crisp were a private venture and are not authoritative. Like Burke’s Landed Gentry they provide a useful genealogical tool but cannot be guaranteed to be 100% accurate with regard to the ancestry or heraldic entitlements.
I and others have compiled a list of scanned heraldic books that are available online. The list can be found at:
Online Heraldic Resources (http://www.heraldry-online.org.uk/Archivebookslinks.htm)
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There's an explanation of heraldic terminology at http://apl385.com/gilling/herldref.htm
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SBZ...that website is wonderful! It takes us step by step explaining all that we need. Thanks EVER so much!!! And a particular thanks to Stephen, David and Nell. Little did I know how easy this was going to be learning about my relatives. I did remember being related to a Viscount because my uncle would always list that in the obits...but finding out more about this entire family has truly made me want to visit on an extended vacation. It truly has.
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What is even more fascinating about all of this was that I was drawn to those symbols that actually were part of my family's crest....while I was doing a large remodel. I decided to have all of my floors redone in marble, travertine and granite and picked the same symbols for stone inserts into my floors and behind my stove that actually had been in many of these English family's crests. I wanted a stone griffin behind my stove. My husband could not understand WHY I liked these stone casted griffins for a stone wall behind my stove and why I wanted fleur de lis designs in the marble floor in the kitchen and the main entry way. I had not even started doing any research into these lines at all. I had no idea that these symbols permeated many of my lines. Interesting to say the least.
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what should be remembered is that a coat of arms is bestowed on a Family and not a name. Unless you are descended by bloodline through whatever rules apply you are not entitled to use the coat of arms. Whatever the modern heralds of Internet commerce say, only very few people in reality are entitled to use the coat of arms bearing their name.
see this link
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/guide/her.shtml
Dai
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It is interesting the development of the rules which pass a coat of arms on to the next family member. Isn't it usually the eldest male that it passes on to?
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It is interesting the development of the rules which pass a coat of arms on to the next family member. Isn't it usually the eldest male that it passes on to?
Yes and no. The eldest male inherits the "undifferenced" Arms and his siblings should display a cadency mark to show their relationship to the main family line. In English heraldry this is usually ignored but in Scotland the siblings have to petition for their own "new" Coat of Arms.