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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: KGarrad on Sunday 05 December 10 09:48 GMT (UK)

Title: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: KGarrad on Sunday 05 December 10 09:48 GMT (UK)
This is a long-shot, but here goes!

My 2xG Grandfather, Abraham Garrad, was born in Essex in 1821.
After his first wife died (1851+), he moved to Dublin.

He appears in the Dublin Street Directory in 1862, at 32˝ Dawson Street, where he was running a Livery Stables.

There are also various advert's in the Irish Times around that time.

He married Catherine Poynton at St Annes on 8th May 1861.
3 sons were born: Francis (1862, Abraham (1865) and Henry (1867), and a daughter Margaret (dob unknown).

Young Abraham and Henry were apparently born (or baptised) in Kilkenny as Catholic. Why?!

Elder Abraham died on 9th July 1868 in Tallaght, of TB.


My questions:
Where would Abraham be likely to have been buried?

What happened to the family?
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: rjnbarlow on Sunday 05 December 10 10:23 GMT (UK)
Hi Kevin

Thanks so much for your mail. Sorry to reply to a post other than that relating to the Crockers  but I'm new to this site and not too sure how it all works.

I'm facinated to learn about your work on the Crockers. Unfortunately quite a number of my recent relatives have died including my mother Anne
Elizabeth Crocker and her brother, my uncle John. I have relatively little information about my family but recently visited my Aunt Barbara who was William Crockers sister in law. (Minnie (Margaret??) Crocker was married to William crocker. Barbara was Minnies sister). My aunt Barbara gave me an old picture of William Crocker as a small child with his father (my great grandfather) Do you think this gentleman might be related to you? I'd be happy to scan the picture and send a copy to you if it might be of interest. I also have other pictures including some of Crockers shoe shop in Glastonbury from way back and many others which are pretty old and include people I don't recognise as relatives but may well be. 

I will post another message and that will make three. Then hopefully we might be able to exchange further information via PM's.

I hope you don't mind me contacting you again and I also hope I haven't broken site etiquette by replying to your non Crocker post.

Kind regards

Richard

Barbara mentioned someone called Ethel to me also.
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: ambyrne1 on Monday 06 December 10 11:05 GMT (UK)
It depends if he was buried as CoI or Catholic.

if CoI he could be buried in St Maelruain's Parish Tallaght which also has a cemetery beside it.
http://www.stmaelruains.ie/

It Catholic... hmmm there use to be an old cemetery up on where Donomore Ave is in Tallaght but they built houses on it.

Not sure about a Catholic cemetery
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: KGarrad on Monday 06 December 10 11:25 GMT (UK)
His wife was catholic, and his 2 sons were baptised catholic.

Abraham himself came from an English CofE family - some of the family were clergy!
Abraham was disinherited from his father's will - because of the catholic link, I strongly suspect.

But, thanks for the info.

Do you happen to know if there was a TB hospital in Tallaght?
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: ambyrne1 on Tuesday 07 December 10 11:34 GMT (UK)
The nearest one that I am aware of is Peamount hospital in Newcastle that was established in 1912 as a TB hospital. It is about -7-10 miles from Tallaght..

Not sure if there was a nearer one or further back
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: KGarrad on Tuesday 07 December 10 11:39 GMT (UK)
Thanks anyway!

I was (briefly!) working in Dublin a few years ago.
Intrigued to see that 32˝ Dawson Street still exists!

Opposite the Mansion House, on the corner where the alleyway/lane goes to the RAC Club garage.
So I assume that the stables used to be where the garage is now.
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: shanew147 on Tuesday 07 December 10 12:00 GMT (UK)
Thom's 1877 :

Dawson Street

  32   John Goodwood - homoeopathic chemist
   "    S. Watson Mann esq.
  32a  Patk. Quigley - picture frame mkr.
  32 1/2  Laurence Hunter - veterinary surgeon

I'll check a slightly earlier directory (1868) to see what the details at that time...


Shane
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: KGarrad on Tuesday 07 December 10 12:13 GMT (UK)
I already have the 1862 directory.
Abraham died 1868, so he should be in that year's directory.

If you would be so kind!!

Thanks a million!!
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: shanew147 on Tuesday 07 December 10 12:20 GMT (UK)
I was kind of expecting to see the livery stables still being there in 1877 - would fit with it eventually converting into the RAC premises.

I think possibly the lane where this is located may be listed separately in later years

will get back to you later on...


Shane
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: KGarrad on Tuesday 07 December 10 12:38 GMT (UK)
Reckon that would be Joshua Lane?
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: shanew147 on Tuesday 07 December 10 12:49 GMT (UK)
Reckon that would be Joshua Lane?

That's it..  have just found it on the modern OSI maps - link (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,715949,733632,7)

I also had a quick look at a Thom's 1914 to see if I could see when the RAC were at the address and in case the lane was mentioned :

 32 1/2, 33 & 34 Irish Automobile Club, H. S. Chayter sec.

pretty early in the history of cars to start an auto club!


Shane
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: KGarrad on Tuesday 07 December 10 12:54 GMT (UK)
Always at the frontiers of technology in Dublin!!

Formed in 1901 - as Irish Automobile Club - apparently one of the oldest motor clubs known.
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: shanew147 on Tuesday 07 December 10 13:06 GMT (UK)
Always at the frontiers of technology in Dublin!!

Formed in 1901 - as Irish Automobile Club - apparently one of the oldest motor clubs known.

As I understand it the first production vehicle was Kark Benz's Velo - in about 1894. So a Dublin auto club when cars were just about 7 years old is very impressive

and I thought 1914 was early!


Shane
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: Quaxer on Tuesday 07 December 10 13:34 GMT (UK)
The Irish Times edition for 7th December 1896 on Page 8 has an article entitled " A motor carriage in Dublin "

Quaxer
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: shanew147 on Tuesday 07 December 10 17:42 GMT (UK)
No sign of the livery stables at 32 1/2 in 1868 - just a veterinary surgeon surname Lambert, no sign of any Garrad listings in the index.

Thom's 1863 show an interesting detail, as follows :

  32 1/2  Abraham Garrard - veterinary surgeon

did you know he was a vet ?

p.s. the directories were often a year or so out of date as they took time to compile, so an 1868 directory could include details from 1867 or earlier.


Shane
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: KGarrad on Tuesday 07 December 10 18:49 GMT (UK)
That I did!

He was a vet in England before.
His dad was a vet, and his brother was a vet with the cavalry in the Bengal Army.

Maybe he had sold the business? Or was too ill (he had TB) to continue?

No mention of his wife or children I suppose?
They seem to have disappeared after his death.

I have a suspicion that the boys died, but daughter Margaret was mentioned in a will of 1867.
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: shanew147 on Tuesday 07 December 10 19:08 GMT (UK)
no sign of his wife that I found ... if she stayed on at the Dawson St address I'd expect to see her listed as head of household.

There are a few Garrad/Garrard listings on the Civil BMD index that might be worth checking out. The birth index for Abraham jnr indicates that he was born somewhere in Kilkenny registration district, so maybe the family had connections or moved there for a while due to Abraham Snrs work ?

I saw the St. Anne's marriage for Abraham and checked his address in 1863 (1 Glasthule Terrace, Dun Laoghaire/Kingstown) but no sign of him as a householder at that time.




Shane
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: KGarrad on Tuesday 07 December 10 19:28 GMT (UK)
I have the baptism record for both Abraham jnr (3rd March 1865) and Henry (19th Jan 1867) both in Kilkenny, both RC.

I have no idea why Kilkenny!
As far as I know, Catherine (Kate) Poynton came from Tallaght?

Have never found any trace of any of them afterwards.

Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: shanew147 on Tuesday 07 December 10 19:38 GMT (UK)
I have the baptism record for both Abraham jnr (3rd March 1865) and Henry (19th Jan 1867) both in Kilkenny, both RC.

I have no idea why Kilkenny!
As far as I know, Catherine (Kate) Poynton came from Tallaght?
...

I was thinking that there may be additional details on civil certs for Abraham and Henry relating to Abraham snr's occupation and full address that might give a clue.

Based on Catherine's residence at the time of marriage I checked Griffith's Valuation and there are a few Poynton listings in the area including a Francis that might be worth checking further. See : Poynton, Griffith's Valuation (http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=doNameSearch&Submit.x=77&Submit.y=9&Submit=Submit&familyname=poynton&firstname=&baronyname=&countyname=DUBLIN&unionname=&parishname=)  It would fit with him being a farmer. 

It's slightly unusual that they would marry in Dublin City as this usually took place in the brides' parish..


Shane
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: KGarrad on Tuesday 07 December 10 22:10 GMT (UK)
. . . and still doesn't explain why the boys were baptised in Kilkenny?

Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: shanew147 on Tuesday 07 December 10 22:11 GMT (UK)
. . . and still doesn't explain why the boys were baptised in Kilkenny?



not just baptised... according to the Civil Index also born there.

my guess is a temporary move relating to Abraham's work


Shane
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: KGarrad on Tuesday 07 December 10 22:19 GMT (UK)
By that time, his brother John Whitmore Garrad, was a vet in the British Army and/or Indian Civil Service Stud Department. (Not too many records for vets with the army!)

Would it be possible that Abraham was servicing a cavalry Army regiment in Kilkenny?

They were there twice - both births - so there must be some link there?

BTW JW's retirement was mentioned in The Irish Times, 23rd December 1874.
as far as I know he had no link with Ireland apart from Abraham?
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: shanew147 on Tuesday 07 December 10 22:23 GMT (UK)
.....
Would it be possible that Abraham was servicing a cavalry Army regiment in Kilkenny?
....

There was a barracks in Kilkenny at the time.. so that could be  a possibility

Did the baptism records give parish and address for the family ?



Shane
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: KGarrad on Tuesday 07 December 10 22:41 GMT (UK)
Now why didn't I think of that?!

Number: 252
3rd March 1865
Parliament Street, Kilkenny
Abraham, Male
Father: Abraham Garrad, Parliament Street, Kilkenny
Mother: Catherine Garrad, formerly Pointer

Father was a veterinary surgeon
Informant: Mary McNully (? something Nully) present at birth


For Henry I only have the baptism record.
Address: Parliament Street, Kilkenny
29th January 1867
Informant: Mary Burch
Mother & father as above
Notes: [E] Mother given as Kate
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: shanew147 on Wednesday 08 December 10 11:06 GMT (UK)
it looks like they were at the same address in Kilkenny city for at least two years.

I was thinking that if Abraham's work at the time had a military connection he might have mentioned something in the occupation details on the cert. Maybe he he left Dublin and ran, or shared, a practice on Parliament st for a while in the mid to late 1860s.

Parliament st is in the centre of the city. As far as I can see the barracks at the time (Barrack Street) would be about 1km away to the north east (closer as the crow files).

see :

 Parliament St to Barrack St (http://www.google.ie/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Parliament+Street,+Kilkenny&daddr=Barrack+Street,+Kilkenny&hl=en&geocode=FZxxIwMd2E2R_ykTXarXdTpdSDErfRYEyqgcgg%3BFSV5IwMdx2uR_yndtbA9CzpdSDGV6yn-Ylibtw&mra=ls&sll=52.654015,-7.25044&sspn=0.006378,0.014505&ie=UTF8&z=16) (google maps)
 and
 Barracks, Kilkenny (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,650997,656624,6) (OSI maps)

Select the 25" option to see the c1890 map, or either of the 6" versions to see c1820s/1840s maps



Shane
Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: KGarrad on Wednesday 08 December 10 11:31 GMT (UK)
Thanks Shane - I spent a bit of time (at work!) trying to find historic street maps!

I see that Parliament Street was called Coal Market in the 1820/1840 maps?

Title: Re: Abraham Garrad d 1868
Post by: shanew147 on Wednesday 08 December 10 11:39 GMT (UK)
a little bit earlier than the timeframe for your Abraham, but might be of interest :

 Entries from Slater's directory of 1846 for Kilkenny

   page 1 (http://www.failteromhat.com/slater/0376.pdf)  page 2 (http://www.failteromhat.com/slater/0377.pdf)  page 3 (http://www.failteromhat.com/slater/0378.pdf)   page 4 (http://www.failteromhat.com/slater/0379.pdf)


Shane