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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: lotteex on Friday 03 December 10 16:44 GMT (UK)
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On a medal card, there is an entry which states reason for discharge.
Can anyone tell me what the following means: -
Reason for discharge - a. o (or u) 265/17
2 (b a i (?e)
Many thanks
Lottee
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Lottee
Army Order 265 of 1917
He was discharged unfit for service the 2b and other bits signify over seas service as an Other Rank
Pretty similar to Paragraph 392 of Kings Regs.
Can you post name and number so i can see the card on Ancestry?
Ta
Ady :)
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Hi Ady
Thanks for that. His name is Victor James Lawrence who served in WW1 but I cannot find his service records so have assumed his was one of the 70% of records that went up in flames during WW2.
I have found a medal card for Victor Lawrence in the Bedfordshire Re No 33047.
All I know of Victor James is that he was invalided out to Woolwich hospital with a severe leg injury but no idea what regiment he was in. I have found a Victor J Lawrence in the Border Reg No 22812 who received the SWB which I think means that a soldier is discharged as unfit??
So basically I'm clutching at straws in the hope I can find something. I know in 1919 he sailed to Africa to work as a Trader.
Any help will be appreciated
Lottee
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Hello Lottee,
I have had a look at the MIC for 22812 V J Lawrence, Border Regt. - you may be interested to know that the 'SWM' you refer to is in fact 'SWB' which stands for Silver War Badge (sometimes wrongly called the Silver Wound Badge).
This badge was awarded to all military personnel who were discharged as a result of sickness or wounds sustained either at home or overseas, during the war.
Just thought this might be of interest to you.
All the best,
Peter.
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Hi Peter
Yes it sort of gives me some hope that this may be him, though the niggle is that he was born in Battersea and lived in Wandsworth for all his younger years which would have been during WW1. He then went back and forth to Africa starting in 1919 and is how I can verify his address, finally settling in Yorkshire. Why would he join the Border regiment which I assume is up North rather than a Regiment closer to home? Would this be common practice?
Lottee
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Lottee
Its a misconception that men joined local regiments admittedly in 1914-1915 yes they did and many joined their local Terrtorial Battalions or Pals batts but as the war progressed and casualties mounted then men were sent to what ever Regiment needed replacements so theoretically you could have a Cornishman serving in a Kilted Scots Battalion!
Local papers had enlistment nominals published so that may be an option ?
Ady
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Lottee,
Ady is exactly right. By January 1916, when ‘attestation’ was not drawing in men in the numbers required (basically, ‘attestation’ was a system whereby men who signed up would only be called upon when needed) the Government introduced the Military Service Act. This meant conscription for single men, and extended soon afterwards to include married men as well. So by 1917, the Army was mixture of regular soldiers, conscripts, volunteers and part-time soldiers. As a result, any given unit was made up of men from different parts of the country, and by the end of the war, men from London might be serving in a Scottish unit, Welsh men might be serving in English battalions, and so on. As Ady rightly says, men were sent wherever they were needed.
This may be a silly question, Lottee, but how do you know that this man was actually a member of the Armed Forces? Do you have some sort of documentary evidence, or is this simply an assumption (which is perfectly reasonable, of course).
Regards,
Peter
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The only point that conflicts with this info is that per his MIC - Victor J Lawrence - 22812 - Border Regiment first entered a theatre of war (2b - Gallipoli) on 10th December 1915 - so he would have been a volunteer - rather than a conscript
He probably went as a reinforcement as per the Long Long Trail the 2 battalions of the Regiment who served in Gallipoli arrived there earlier in the year
http://www.1914-1918.net/border.htm
Cheers
Sue
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Dear all
Thanks for all you thoughts as I have very little knowledge in finding records for the wars. My father assures me that he was in the 1914 - 18 war and that he received a severe leg injury and was taken to Woolwich hospital. Apparently had it not been for his mother, Theresa Lawrence nee Timson, a formidable character, he would have lost his leg. She insisted (I am told) that they did all they could to save his leg which they did but he did walk with a limp following this.
Would his hospital records been with his service history records or would they have been kept by the hospital?
Thanks for the website address Sue.
Lottee
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Sue,
You are quite right, and this is the reason why I feel it is necessary to clarify where the info regarding Victor's military service originally came from.
I am wondering how Lottee first discovered Victor had been in the Army, then perhaps we can establish some dates and places, etc. :)
Regards,
Peter
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Hi Peter
The info is from my Dad but he really doesn't know very much. His father died when he was just 10 years old.
This is an extract from my Dad's history that he wrote -
"My father had been a soldier during the 1914/18 war. It was during this time that he was severely wounded in the leg and finally after being left in a trench for three days was sent to Woolwich hospital. Had it not been for my formidable grandmother who insisted they tried to save his leg, Dad would have probably had his injured leg amputated. The leg healed well and with the addition of a small leather instep added to his shoe, was able to walk again".
Other than that I have nothing.
Lottee
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Thanks for that, Lottee - very interesting indeed.
Don't know if you are already aware of the following, but in addition to the two candidates you mentioned previously, there are three other MICs for men by the name of 'Victor Lawrence', but without any middle initial...
1) Pte. 4067 Victor Lawrence, London Regiment
2) Pte. 242030 Victor Lawrence, Royal West Kent Regiment
3) Pte. G/1278 Victor Lawrence, The Queen's Regiment
I realise that it is more likely for either of the two men whom you listed previously to be the person you seek, though these others may be worth investigating.
Regards,
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Peter
I've had a look at your three suggestions and as I have little information I cannot dismiss them. Prior to this whenever I entered Victor's name for a military search, this medal card has always come up but I dismissed it. Then the other day I saw that soldiers were awarded a medal if they were invalided out and this medal card had the SWM which made me think again whilst I notice the three I checked do not have that.
Also Victor always seemed to include his middle name. He went to Africa on about 5 occassions and his records on his arrival back in England show he always included his middle name. Clutching at straws maybe.
Lottee
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Lottee,
There is perhaps another line of enquiry you could take; on the MIC for Pte. Lawrence 22812, next to the the entry for the SWB, there is this reference:
List H/1129
This is a reference to the Silver War Badge roll, held at the National Archives, in which information relating to Pte. Lawrence's official reason for, and date of, discharge should be recorded. It will also state the official number of his particular Silver War Badge (each badge was uniquely numbered on the reverse).
The point I am making here is that if the info on the roll corresponds to what you know of 'your' Victor's injuries, then it will be fairly safe to assume that you have the correct MIC, and the right man.
If you are unable to visit Kew, in person (I believe these rolls are not available to view online, though I could be wrong) then it may be possible to perhaps request a look-up, via the forum.
Just a thought.
PJ
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Ref SWB Roll look ups there is no personal info on the Rolls it will state reason but its usually W or S wounds or sickness...
There are always local papers of the time that MAY have reports of wounding.
Ady
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Peter, that is a good idea and as we know it was a leg injury it may help, though it sounds like there may not be an awful lot of info from what Ady has said. At the moment any info may be useful as it may help eliminate the Victor Lawrence or not as the case may be.
Which would be the best board to request a look up on?
Lottee
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Lottee,
PM sent.
Regards,
Peter.
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Been doing some number crunching on Soldiers Died database...a lot of lads with 228**
prefixes seem to have originally been East Surrey Regiment(and lived in london suburbs)...looks like a big batch of them were re cap badged to possibly 1st or 2nd Borders but the Battalion is unconfirmed....
Ady
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Wow, that sounds hopefully Ady and much closer to home, making the medal card a possibility then? I would assume there are still no service records available. Is there any avenue for exploring this regiment etc? (and thank you for the number crunching)
Thanks for the PM Peter.
Lottee
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I'll have a look for the service records for all those men we found MICs for and see if there is anything of use.
PJ
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Lottee,
In many cases, service records will give the names of NOK - parents / spouse / children, therefore assisting in the process of elimination.
Would it be at all possible for you to let us have these details in respect of Victor? No problem if you are unable to do so. :)
Regards,
Peter.
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No problem.
His next of kin would have been his parents who were both still alive then and they were James Thomas and Theresa Lawrence living in Middlesex.
Lottee
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Just to add 22812 was either 1st battalion or 6th battalion they both served in Gallipoli at same time i would think he was a casualty replacement as he arrived in the Gallipoli Theatre of Operations in Dec 1915.(2b signifies this area)
Ady :)
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These are the service records I was able to find, (the search also included pension records):
8378 Victor Lawrence
East Surrey Regt.
12 Avenue Road, St. John’s Wood
Father: Lorenzo
Mother Fanny
316836 Victor Lawrence
Labour Corps
Transferred to the Reserve in 1919 (poor eyesight - injured 20/03/1916)
Clerkenwell Cottage, Haddenham, Bucks.
2673 (199137) Victor Lawrence
Royal Engineers (Transportation Branch)
This last man turned out to have the middle name of 'William'.
Looks like the search isn't over yet! ;)
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Lottee,
could you confirm when he was born? 1898/99? Was there any mention of him being an underage soldier?
JD
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Hi
He was born in Dec qtr 1898 and there has never been any mention of him being underage.
And you are right Peter looks like a blank so far.
Thought I would see how many Victor J/James there were in circulation so looked ar the 1901 and 1911 census + freebmd for the number of Victor James or initial J and there aren't many. A Victor Jubilee born 1887 Dorking and a Victor J born 1889 St George Han. Sq.
In the 1911 and 1901 census there is only one Victor J/James. Found 15 Victors in the 1901 and 13 in 1911 born 1890 +/- 10years, so not a common name.
Lottee
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Lottee,
Yes, I also saw the Victor JUBILEE Lawrence - obviously named after QV's Golden Jubilee in the year of his birth (1887).
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Lottee,
Have you seen the UK Incoming Passenger List, on Ancestry? There is a 'Victor James Lawrence' listed therein - I know it is not a piece of the military puzzle, but thought it might be of interest if you hadn't seen it.
Date: 12th August 1924
Name: Victor James Lawrence (b. circa 1898)
Occupation: Merchant's Assistant
Address: 24, Richmond (Terrace?), Meston Road, Wandsworth.
Ship: ZARIA
Port of Embarkation: Calabar, Nigeria
Port of Arrival: Liverpool
Regards,
Peter
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Thanks Peter, yes I have. It is one of 5 arrivals into Liverpool. When I first found it I was over the moon. My father knew that he had worked there but had no idea that he had been out there 5 times so great excitment.
Just saw your earlier message, would never have put the name together with its historical value, must remember that in future.
Lottee
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Lottee,
Yes, I also saw the Victor JUBILEE Lawrence - obviously named after QV's Golden Jubilee in the year of his birth (1887).
funny, I have been doing his family for one of his descendants and I told her when she was laughing at what she thought was a really weird middle name, without my even knowing his birth year, that he must have been born the year of one of Victoria's Jubilees; she had both Golden and Diamond.
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That's amazing, shame there's no connection.
lottee