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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Nottinghamshire => England => Nottinghamshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: pevenseyranger on Friday 03 December 10 14:18 GMT (UK)
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I have a Herbert Raven in my tree who married a Sarah A Burton in Nottingham in 1905 at the parish of St Peter , as hard as i have tried to find out which Herbert Raven he is i am unable to get clarification . On there marriage certificate it says his father is a John Raven , i can find know match to put the pair together, also it states that he is 23 years old when he married in Jan of that year.
I have checked the 1911 census and most of the Herbert Ravens are single and the ones that are married there is no mention of his wife Sarah , there is one possible Herbert Raven, he is married but in prison !!!! I have checked the 1901 census and the only small bit of joy is that there is anther Herbert Raven in York prison born about 1880 Nottingham but it states he is married already , i have tried my best to find a marriage for a Herbert Raven before 1901 but had no joy, as he was a young lad it must have been with in a few years years of 1901, so may be that could be a lie it also states he is a soldier in york .
Any help would be much appreciated
Luke
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Hi Luke
Welcome to Rootschat :)
You have already requested details for Herbert on another thread which I have answered (although you seem to have all the info here) It is best to stick to one thread as information gets repeated and confusing. I will add the link to this thread for others to see.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=499667.new#new
I'll see what I can find for you
Evie
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Hi
The Herbert that is in prison, on his service papers gives his mother as next of kin on joining in 1900 as Emma (T)homas of 11 Market Square, Carrington, Notts
Evie
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Thank you Evie
Any info is a great help, if you come across a date of birth please forward .
Luke
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Hi
He joined on the 5th December 1900 and age was given as 20 years 9 months and stated he was single.
I am a liitle worried you may be following the wrong Herbert, apart from the marriage have you anything else to go on. Is this the correct marriage? What was his address on the marriage certificate, who were the witnesses, what was his occupation please?
Evie
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I could well be going down the wrong path ? all i know is that he was married in 1905 in the month of January at the parish of St Peter in the city of Nottinghamshire. It states that he is 23 years old , he lives at 2 prospect place. Some of the writting is hard to read but i think his father is John Raven
( deceased ) and a Publican as for Herbert it looks like he is a painter or Carter ? as for the witnesses i just cant make them out.
Thanks
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Could he be Herbert Barnes Raven? b. March 1878 Nottingham 7b 274
1891
William Barnes 42 Lime Stone Labourer Northants Maidford
Jane 41 Leicestershire Barrow on Soar
John Raven 23 Elastic Weaver "
Lucy Raven 19 Cotton winder in factory "
Elizabeth Ann Barnes 13 Errand Girl "
Maria 12 Scholar "
Jane 10 " "
Emma 8 " "
William 7 " "
Herbert 5 Nottingham
Thomas 3 "
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maybe not, just realised my maths is out and he should be born c1882 :-\
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Ive been round in circles for a long time now trying to unravel this , thanks for trying for me .
Luke
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Hi Luke
Can you give us the details of Sarah on the marriage certificate please, father etc?
Evie
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Sarah Ann Burton 1882-3 Whitwick
Father James Burton - Coal Miner
Mother Kate Burton
Address of Herbert and Sarah - 2 Prospect place
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Hi Luke
This is strange. I keep thinking I have found the correct Herbert and then other information throws a spanner in the works. I will have to give you small bits at a time as I am getting confused and I think I will confuse you to.
This is what I have found this morning.
Looking at WW1 service records one Herbert states he marries Sarah Ann Burton 24th Jan 1905 St Peter's Parish church, Birmingham I wonder if the recruiting officer just presumed it was Birmingham as they are living at 25 Lodge Road, Aston, Birmingham. He states his age as 39 years 8 months on the 19. 10. 1915. He gives his birth place as Nottingham, Nottinghamshire. Occupation Carter. His previous service was the 2nd battalion scottish regiment (will come back to this later)
Further on for marriage it just says St Peters and date given 19 Jan 1894 although this was crossed out on previous page
Evie
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Ok according to earlier military records the Herbert who served with the scottish rifles as mentioned earlier was Herbert Barnes Raven who gave his place of birth at that time Herdington Birmingham Warwickshire. But this can't be as found by Catone on earlier post.
His mother is given as A Raven, Market Square, Carrington. Interesting that the other Herbert's mother also was living at Market Square.
So I think this must be your Herbert and not the one that has mother Emma Thomas
Will keep trying to differentiate, just to be sure
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Thank you Evie , you have given me lots to go on .
Luke
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well, I've had a few day's to mull things over and i will summarise them here to see what you think.
There seems to be three Herbert Ravens in the frame .
1, The Herbert Raven in the 1911 census is in prison , it states that he is married , a labourer, 26 years old born in Nottingham . I can find no details of a birth in1885 for this so its not clear on his age. In the 1911 census Sarah Ann Raven is not living with her Husband for what ever reason, could it be her Husband is in prison?
2, In the 1901 census there is a Herbert Raven in prison in York , it states that he is a soldier , he was born 1880 in St Saviours Nottingham does any one know this place? it says that he is married but looking on Ancestry i could find no marriage details leading up to 1901.
He appears in no other census and i cannot find him in the births .
He joined the forces in 1900 Dec 5 and his age is 20 years and 9 months , i would guess that he was born in MARCH .
His next of kin is his mother ( not his wife ) Emma Thomas who I'm quite sure was Emma Raven 1855.
Emma Thomas lives at 11 MARKET SQUARE
3, Herbert Barnes Raven , born in 1878 MARCH on birth records. he appears on no census that i can see.
The Herbert Raven service record says he married Sarah Ann Burton in 1905 and his age is 39 years and 8 months on the 19 Oct 1915 that would make it about 1876 Feb /MARCH but on there marrage certificate he puts his age at 23 so this Herbert Raven is fiddling his age when suits him.
Also Herbert Barnes Raven in 1915 put his mother as next of kin as A Raven living in MARKET SQUARE . I looked on Ancestry and could find no marriage details of A Raven.
Also in the Nottinghamshire Guardian Jan 8 1898 he was in trouble with the police, his age is 21 .
With all the information that i have,i have a hunch that may be the Herbert Raven in my family tree is in fact all the above or it could be that all the three Herbert Ravens here are a dodgy bunch .
I have sent off for the Birth certificate of Herbert Barnes Raven , i hope that this will show his parents on it and lead on to more information.
Luke
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Good summary Luke
I believe we are dealing with a Herbert Barnes Raven and a Herbert Raven - just the two.
I found Herbert Barnes Raven at RG11 Piece 3398 Folio 88 Page 41 in 1881 he was a nurse child living at Back of No 18 Markeaton St, Derby
Mary Pegg, Head, Widow, 51, Nurse, Devonshire
Charles Pegg, son, single, 22, Derby, Derbyshire
Herbert B Ravens, nurse child, 3, Nottingham, Notts
Evie
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Hi Luke
Found another military record for Herbert Raven (not Herbert Barnes Raven). Territorial Force says he has not served with any military :o 6th April 1915 age 29 years 2 months. Served for only 32 days next of kin mother Elizabeth Thomas (Emma Elizabeth Thomas) address 6 Market Square, Carrington, Notts.
I wish I could find Emma in the 1891 census she should also have with her a Mabel born about 1887 Nottinghamshire.
I do hope the birth certificate arrives quickly for Herbert Barnes Raven - this is killing me ;D
Is there any way you can scan the witnesses names from the marriage cert and put them on the thread for deciphering?
Evie
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Theres an Emma Elizabeth Raven marrying in September 1884 Nottingham to a Brown or Beresford, and a widowed Emma Brown, visitor at Church Drive, Basford, Nottinghamshire in 1891 RG12/2670 Folio 102 Page 3, no sign of any children though :-\
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Thanks Catone :)
I did see that but as you said no children. I am trying my best to eliminate this Herbert but he seems so elusive. I tried looking for a marriage of Emma Beresford or Brown but none showing up for a Thomas. The only Emma Elizabeth to a Robert Thomas in 1887 was Emma Elizabeth Myring.
Evie
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Thank you Evie and catone
for your input today , it all helps i can tell you .
I feel we are slowly closing in on this elusive Herbert Raven.
There is a Frank Beresford marring in 1884 VOL 7b PAGE 266 the same as Emma Elizabeth Raven I'm unsure if the fact that they share the same VOL and PAGE ?
I will try and scan the witnesses on here shortly .
As soon as the birth certificate arrives i will let you all know
Luke
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Is there any way you can scan the witnesses names from the marriage cert and put them on the thread for deciphering?
Witnesses are on this link
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=501293.new#new
Evie
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I'd say Arthur Samuel Salisbury (or possibly Salsbury) and Harriett Marriot
Nic
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Thank you for your reply Nic.
We agree with your deduction. Arthurs name fits with Salsbury on birth and census.
Although at this stage I can see no connection with the witnesses and Herbert unless Luke knows different. Another idea down the drain :D
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I have received the certified copy of an entry of birth of Herbert Barnes Raven .
D o b - 1878 16 Feb
Mother - Emma Raven
Father - no name
Occupation of mother - Sales women
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Thank you Luke
Now I need to lie down, not what we were expecting. ::) Back to the drawing board.
Evie
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well , that has put a spanner in the works !!!!!!
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I know :'(
What was the address given on the birth certificate please?
Evie
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4 Larkdale Terrace, Sherwood , in the County Town of Nottingham
Hope this helps !!!!!!
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Theres an Emma Elizabeth Raven marrying in September 1884 Nottingham to a Brown or Beresford, and a widowed Emma Brown, visitor at Church Drive, Basford, Nottinghamshire in 1891 RG12/2670 Folio 102 Page 3, no sign of any children though :-\
What is going on with this family. If Emma did marry Theophilus William Brown he didn't die until 1895 :-\
Sorry the address didn't seem to help either.
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Are we to assume now that Herbert Barnes Raven 1878 is the same Herbert Raven in the 1901 census ? as both have a mother named Emma Raven .
The Herbert Raven in the 1911 census is also a possibility of being the same person , he is also in prison on census night 1911 . Could there be a date of birth with his prison records ? if so this would be a pointer as to whether we are dealing with the same Herbert Raven
Luke
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Ok Luke
Had another look at service records.
I think you are correct and that there is only one Herbert (Barnes) Raven. I think. I also feel if you don't mind me saying that he was a compulsive fibber.
In the earlier service records there was a Herbert Raven and a Herbert Barnes Raven.
Herbert Barnes Raven joined 1898, Scottish Rifles at Hamilton, having been in 3 Lincolnshire Rgt and was discharged Aldershot 1899. Intended place of stay 22, Bell Street. Mother A Raven, Market Square.
Herbert Raven (I think he has now dropped the Barnes) joined again in 1900 the YLI (No 6720) born St Saviours and discharged Nov 1901, Limerick. Records indicate he was in prison from 1. 3. 1901 for 70 days. Amongst other things, improper enlistment.Both times these Herberts were discharged as being medically unfit. Intended place of stay 11 Market Square.
What made me think that these two could possibly be the same was that Herbert Raven YLI had 3 ink marks L forearm and the Herbert Raven who on WW1 record was married to Sarah Ann Burton had tattoo L arm dots.
Hoping I have made sense and not confused you further.
Evie
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And more
On 6th April 1915 joined Territorial address Thoresby St Sneinton nok mother Elizabeth Thomas 6 Market Square. Discharged 6 May 1915 not likely to be an efficient soldier - no previous army service.
In Oct 1915 joined army again having been in Scottish regiment married to Sarah Ann Burton, discharged Jan 1916 for desertion.
Now this one was confusing me but it looks like the same guy.
Joined May 1917 address Salford married to Annie Elizabeth Burnham Apr 7th 1917 said he had been discharged from 2nd Bat YLI due to being medically unfit and gives his previous number as 6720 went AWOL July 1917.
Had a look at the deaths and there is a Sarah A Raven 1917, Nottingham aged 34, whether or not she is yours I am not sure.
Evie
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Evie
You have done very well indeed , the link with the tattoos is a good one .
Herbert Raven seems very keen to join up to the Army , i wonder why he is unfit to serve?
i wonder if the service records state how tall he is as that would be anther fact to go on .
I have been wondering who his dad might be and trying to get a connection from some where and came up with this
1, Mother - Emma Raven - Jobs , Sales Women 1878, Waitress ( INN ) 1881 census
2, Father not know on birth certificate, but has been given the middle name Barnes which could well be a clue. On Herbert's marrage to Sarah Ann Burton he states that his father is John Raven , deceased Publican. I'm guessing it could be John Barnes, so i searched for a John Barnes in the 1881 census who was a publican and found one , John Barnes 1835 who ran a pub called Lord Nelson INN. He had a son called also John Barnes but he is a butcher .
Luke
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Mmm you could be onto something there Luke. Will have a look later. To answer your question about height etc.
Early records
Herbert Raven
Carter
5' 4'' chest 33-34.5'' eyes grey, hair brown
Born Notingham, Notts
Herbert Barnes Raven
Labourer
5' 3.5'' chest 32-34.5'' eyes blue, hair light brown
Born [H[erdington, Birmingham
Half way through records eyes brown, hair brown :-\ I think possibly error
When I can I will try and post the two signatures and the same for WW1
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WW1
Living Aston and married to Sarah
Carter
5' 5.5'' chest 34'' with expansion of 2'' although on medical form has 5' 3.5'' so I could have misread the first as the 5 and 3 look similar
Born Nottingham
Can't seem to find eyes and hair
Living Salford married to Annie
Gen Labourer
5' 3.5'' chest 33'' with 3'' expansion
Eyes blue, hair brown
Records seem to say medically unfit but can find no evidence as to why this was, all I can seem to see on records is desertion, maybe he was slightly mentally unstable :-\
Strange that Birmingham/Aston is mentioned in his earlier records and now living there in the WW1 records. Maybe some connection?
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Luke, all 4 signatures on this thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=501930.new#new
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Thank you Evie
I have to say that i have looked and they are not exact but similar in my opinion , especially the R in Raven .
If this Herbert raven ( Barnes ) proves to be my relation he either has no morals or has spilt from Sarah Ann Raven ( Burton ) as she died on the 23rd of Feb 1917 and he appears to have married again on the 6th of April 1917.
Would it be possible to get his medical records from some where ?
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I'm not sure about medical records, do you mean from the army or general? If you mean from the army it might be best asking a general question on the armed forces board as they know quite a lot about army records etc.
Medical records are not something I have ever looked into. Sorry.
Maybe Sarah had been poorly a while and to be quite honest I wouldn't put anything past him, sorry Herbert
Evie
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I had meant normal records , i will look into it .
Emma had a brother named Joseph who I'm told married a Elizabeth Barnes , quite a common name so I'm unsure exactly which Elizabeth barnes she is also she died in 1878 . I wonder if the Barnes names are connected.
Luke