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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: Porgi on Friday 03 December 10 05:30 GMT (UK)
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I am searching for my McDougall ancestors and have hit a brick wall! (I'm very new to this!)
Paternal great grandfather was John McDougall born around 1860-62 ostensibly in Goroke Victoria according to his marriage certificate to Maryann Hitchcock in 24/09/1891.
His father's name was Alexander (he was was his witness on the marriage cert). I believe he may have been born around Casterton in Victoria. I don't have any other details.
Would appreciate any assistance :)
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Hi, and welcome to Rootschat. :)
Can you give us any more information for any of the family mentioned on the certificate you have. Where was the wedding and what exactly does it say for the birthplace of John and his father? Is there any info re John's mother?
Casterton and Goroke are a long way apart!
More information will help us search. for example, there are a number of will on the PROV site for Alexander MCDOUGALL but, without knowing his occupation and/ordeath date or place we can't work out which one (if any) it might be.
I couldn't see a John McDougall b abt 1861 with father Alexander. :( My access is fairly limited though- someone else may have more luck. I couldn't even see the marriage.
Judith
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Hi Porgi,
I have checked the Victorian indexes for the marriage of John McDougall and Maryann Hitchcock that you have mentioned in your post and regrettably this event does not appear to have occurred in Victoria.
As Judith has requested in her reply to your post more information, could you please also advise if known, where and when your John and Maryann died.
Please find following a little bit of information about a McDougall family from Goroke. (It could be possible that this Alexander may be your John’s brother, but obviously more information is required).
Alexander McDougall (born Coleraine) married in 1887 to Elizabeth Margaret Whittingham (born (Narracorte, South Australia.)
Alexander died before Elizabeth.
Elizabeth McDougall (nee Whittingham) died 17.07.1944, Edenhope, age 87, her parents were Thomas Whittingham and Mary Cairns, Reg#20439, Elizabeth is buried at Edenhope Cemetery.
Their children:
Alexander William McDougall born 1888, Goroke, Reg#11891
Alexander McDougall died 1909, Rainbow, Reg#13956, age 21.
John Thomas McDougall born 1889, Goroke, Reg#22207
Alvenas McDougall born 1891 in Goroke, Reg#3704
Alvenas McDougall married 1920, to Walter Laidlaw Fletcher - Reg#4782
Florence Helena McDougall born 1892, Edenhope, Reg#32137
Florence Helena McDougall married 1928, to Ernest Tappolet - Reg#10754
James Allan McDougall born 1894, Edenhope, Reg#28868
James Allan McDougall died 04.10.1915 - on shipboard between Gallipoli and Alexandria.
13th Light Horse Regiment - Service Number 520.
Australian Defence Force personnel record (Digitised copy):
http://www.naa.gov.au
Cheers,
Janet.
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Further to Janet's WW1 information for James Allan MCDOUGALL died 1915 - in the digitised record is a letter from his mother (Elizabeth MCDOUGALL of Edenhope) dated 1920 stating she has had no 'tidings' of her husband's whereabouts for the past 23 years, and does not know whther he is alive or dead. :(
Judith
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Thanks for your replies.
A few more details from the marriage certificate and family history.
The marriage took place in Mt Gambier at St Paul's. The name of the groom's father is given as Alexander with the residence of the groom and groom's father given as Goroke at that time (1891).
Mayanne and John both lived, died and were buried at Port Macdonnell in SA (at the old lighthouse cemetery). I remember when I was little meeting my ggrand mother Maryann at their old family home in Port Macdonnell when she was in her 90s
Veronica Sara Mc Dougall (known as Vera) their daughter was my grand mother on my father's side (both now buried in Mt Gambier). I think I may have tracked down a couple of her siblings; John Alphonsus Charles Mc Dougall (has WW1 records), James (no other details) and baby Winnifred who appears to have died in infancy. There are perhaps more.
As my parent were divorced and both have passed I have very little verbal history to go on tracking this side down. It was my father who mentioned many years ago he thought his ggrand father Alexander may have come from Casterton? Perhaps this is a red herring!
My (inexpert) search of Victorian BMD records online gave me too many John and Alexander McDougalls to deal without a concrete thread I think.
I have been unable to locate any SA records online to search.
Once again thanks for the interest and assistance. I am a new rootschat user but love the medium!!
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Hi,
Victorian Po Directory 1888.
McDougall Alexander, farmer Colerane.
also
Victorian Government Gazette No113, Friday October 25th 1889, p 3676.
transfer of 312 acre lease with Alexander McDougall, address Colerane ,as the transferee.
look for corro 9114
http://gazette.slv.vic.gov.au/view.cgi?year=1889&class=general&page_num=3639&state=V&classNum=G113
Gerry
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Although you have the marriage certificate these are the details on the marriage index for SA.
McDOUGALL John 29 years Status Single Father Alexander McDOUGALL
HITCHCOCK Mary Ann 21 years Status Single Father Samuel HITCHCOCK
24 Sep 1891
At St Paul Mount Gambier Gre 168/1144
According to the info in South Australian Resources at the top of the board, the following info is on marriage certs between 1868-1907
* Date and Place of Marriage
* Bride and Bridegrooms Names, Ages and Rank
* Condition
* Trade
* Residence
* Father's names
I am wondering when you mention that John McDougall born around 1860-62 ostensibly in Goroke Victoria according to his marriage certificate to Maryann Hitchcock in 24/09/1891. if that is correct as there doesn't appear to be mention of a provision for the place of birth for either the bride or groom on marriage certificates in that era only their place of residence at time of the marriage.
Looking at the Victorian Birth indexes I notice a number of births around Koroit, Dundas and Coleraine to an Alexander McDOUGALL and Elizabeth GRANT. These are the only births in Victoria to an Alexander McDOUGALL to 1881. I would mention at this stage that not all births were registered and perhaps John was amongst that category. I will detail the births I have found and one avenue for you to find if indeed this Alexander McDOUGALL and Elizabeth GRANT were the parents of a John born c1862would be to purchase a birth certificate of one of the later births which will name all previous births to this couple and their place of marriage. In Victoria you can purchase an image online and immediately download for $17.50
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=purchaseImage
Information on all certificates in Victoria
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
I would purchase the 1880 birth cert. Of course this is only a suggestion and there is always the chance that this is not your McDOUGALL family.
Births in Victoria
McDOUGALL James
Father Alexander Mother Eliza GRANT
At Koroit 1865 Reg#21147
McDOUGALL Elizabeth
Father Alexander Mother Elizabeth GRANT
At Dundas 1867 REg#20926
McDOUGALL Lewis
Father Alexander Mother Eliza GRANT
At Dundas 1871 Reg#22281
McDOUGALL Catherine
Father Alexander Mother Eliza GRANT
At WA TE 1876 Reg#1592
MCDOUGALL Robert Grant
Father Alexander Mother Elisabeth GRANT
At Coleraine 1878 Reg#14735
McDOUGALL Margaret
Father Alexander Mother Elizabeth GRANT
At Coleraine 1880 Reg#1479
Good luck.
Cheers
Cando
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Catherine's place of birth WA TE is Wategat in the Shire of Wannon, County of Dundas.
Cando
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Births in South Australia
McDOUGALL Mary Rose
4 Dec 1891
Father John McDOUGALL Mother Mary Ann HITCHCOCK
At Port MacDonnell Gre 491/121
McDOUGALL John Alphonsus Charles
20 Aug 1895
Father John MCDOUGALL Mother Mary Ann HITCHCOCK
At Port MacDonnell Gre 571/93
McDOUGALL Kathleen Ellen
19 Jun 1899
Father John MCDOUGALL Mother Mary Ann HITCHCOCK
At Port MacDonnell Gre M 644/223
McDOUGALL Margaret Winifred
19 Jun 1899
Father John MCDOUGALL Mother Mary Ann HITCHCOCK
At Port MacDonnell Gre M 644/223
McDOUGALL Veronica Sarah
30 Jul 1902
Father John MCDOUGALL Mother Mary Ann HITCHCOCK
AT Port MacDonnell Gre 700/268
Death
McDOUGALL Margaret Winifred
21 Mar 1901
Age 1 year 9 months StatusChild Relative John McDOUGALL [Father]
Lived and died at Port McDonnell Gre 276/324
Marriages
HAY James Francis 23 years Status Single Father John HAY
McDOUGALL Mary Rose 21 years Status Single Father John McDOUGALL
19 May 1913
At the Presbyterian Manse Mount Gambier Gre 255/610
McDOUGALL John Alphonsus Charles 24 years Status Single Father John McDOUGALL
HAMMOND Beatrice Adela 25 years Status Single Father Robert Shallum HAMMOND
30 Mar 1920
At the Methodist Church Port MacDonnell Gre 282/1070
I will pm the births to both couples as there is always a possibility that these people may be living.
Cheers
Cando
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John Alphonus Charles MCDOUGALL's WW1 record gives has a 'permission to enrol' paper signed at Port MacDonnell in 1916 by both parents John and Mary MCDOUGALL. John Alphonsus's address in November 1923 is given as Wehl St, Mt Gambier. So both parents were alive and living in Port MacDonnell in 1916.
His Place of Enrolment was Melbourne but I note his medical exam was in Portland.
J A C also has a WW2 record which gives his DoB as 20 August 1895. NoK for this record is B A MCDOUGALL (obviously the wife found by Cando) - unfortunately not digitised.
This may be a complete red herring but there is a mention in The South Australian Advertiser, Tuesday 23 February 1864 of a Mr A McDougall applying for a licence to teach at Port Macdonnell.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31833466?searchTerm=mcdougall%20port%20macdonnell&searchLimits=exactPhrase
And a resignation of teacher Mr Alexander MCDOUGALL from Port McDonnell in 1867
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/39178109?searchTerm=mcdougall%20port%20macdonnell&searchLimits=exactPhrase
In 1875 an Alexander MCDOUGALL was teacher at Compton Downs.
http://www.southaustralianhistory.com.au/pmcem.htm
This site has a photo of the grave (which you mentioned) at Port MacDonnell of
John MCDOUGALL d 23 July 1937, aged 75.
I notice also on this site a photo of the grave of a Mary HITCHCOCK d 1910 aged 78 -wondered if she 'belongs'.
I know very little about BMDs in Suth Australia - surely his place of birth should be on the death certificate? (Assuming the usual: that the informant actually knew that information)
Well found Cando!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What a whizz! :o
Judith
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Hi,
This site has the teachers list including reference to an Alexander D McDougall at Port MacDonnell.
http://www.unisanet.unisa.edu.au/research/condon/teachers/service-year-list.asp?ServiceYear=1865
Gerry
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The site mentioned by Gerry shows that Alexander was in Port MacDonnell 1864-8166, O B Flat 1867-1875 and Compton Downs 1876-1881
http://www.unisanet.unisa.edu.au/research/condon/teachers/Teachers.asp?TeacherID=1157
Teacher ID: 1157
Teacher number:
Name: McDOUGALL, Alexander D Sex: M
Qualifications: CENTRAL BOARD OF EDUCATION CERTIFICATE 2B 1870
I do not have access to SA BMDs but perhaps there may be an Alexander MCDOUGALL death around Mt Gambier or some further children born to him while he was in the area. This could eliminate him - or not - as the father of John b abt 1862.
There is another mention which may be of interest:
http://www.sapolicehistory.org/june03.html (Scroll down the page a bit, past the strong man LOL)
This has a picture of a group of men with a 'rocket apparatus' on Shelley Beach near Port MacDonnell in the 1900s, one of whom is a J MACDOUGALL.
Judith
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Thankyou all rootschatters.
I am overwhelmed by your generosity of time and effort.
I have undertaken a few further investigations with the clues offered and believe I may have found the missing link with Cando's suggestion.
I purchased the 1880 birth cert for Margaret McDougall of Coleraine and indeed it appears only 6 of the 11 children up to 1880 may have been registered at birth.
Amongst them is a "John" who was 18 in 1880 giving him a birth year of 1862 (looking good for a bingo!).
I will have to find some way to verify this is the correct "John" however the brick wall' is looking more surmountable.
I am not sure about the Alexander who was a teacher in Port Macdonnell this doesn't resonate with the family history I do know. However I will check it out.
Thankyou for all the other information. I haven't started on the Hitchcock family yet but I am developing a richer picture day by day.
I did visit the old lighthouse cemetery in Port Macdonnell earlier this year (fascinating place) and it appears there are several Hitchcocks there in the very old overgrown part as well.
Unfortunately I couldn't find the old house based on my childhood memories.
;D
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I purchased the 1880 birth cert for Margaret McDougall of Coleraine and indeed it appears only 6 of the 11 children up to 1880 may have been registered at birth.
This is not at all unusual to find so many births unregistered.
Does the certificate show the date and place of marriage for Alexander and Elizabeth?
Where were Alexander and Elizabeth born?
These births are the only McDOUGALL births in the area with father Alexander.
What at the names of the children on the birth certificate please?
Cheers
Cando
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South Australia Almanac & Directory 1867
Hitchcock Sam, farmer, MacDonnell Bay
Hitchcock Isc, farmer, MacDonnell Bay
Hitchcock Ish, farmer, MacDonnell Bay
MacDonnell Bay was probably an old name for Port MacDonnell.
Gerry
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Cando,
The following information on the birth certificate for Margaret McDougall born 12 Jan 1880
Children born prior;
Alexander age 20
John age 18
Ann age 16
James age 14
Elizabeth age 12
Allan age 10
Lewis age 8
Mary age 6
Catherine age 4
Robert Grant age 1
The age of father Alexander is given as 49 years, mother Elizabeth as 39 years. The year of marriage is Jan 28 1858 in Coleraine.
Birth place for both parents is Inverness Shire Scotland
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Coleraine didn't have a Presbyterian church as such until after the date of the marriage - 1958 noted on the birth certificate.
http://www.ballaratgenealogy.org.au/coleraine/standrews_coleraine.htm
From the website
In 1857 the Rev. R SUTHERLAND [MA], arrived at Merino and conducted services at Merino, Coleraine, Casterton, Hotspur and Digby during his short stay.
I only detail this info as usually I would suggest contacting the church to find the location of any parish records from the era.
Australian Electoral Roll
1903 Division of Wimmera Polling Place Kiata
McDOUGALL Alexander Kiata Farmer
McDOUGALL Elizabeth Kiata HD
McDOUGALL Elizabeth Kiata HD
McDOUGALL James Snr Kiata Farmer
McDOUGALL James Jnr
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Sorry about that however I am unable to modify to complete the above post so will press on.
Correction....
McDOUGALL James Snr Kiata Labourer
McDOUGALL James Jnr Kiata Labourer
McDOUGALL Henrietta Wilhelmina Kiata HD
McDOUGALL Jane Rankin Kiata HD
McDOUGALL Robert Grant Kiata Labourer
All these McDOUGALL's may not be your family but Robert Grant is a son of Alexander and Elizabeth.
Deaths
McDOUGALL Lewis Grand [I wonder if this should be Grant]
Father McDougall Alex Mother Elizabeth GRANT
At Ouyen 73 1945 Reg#17200
Buried at Ouyen Cemetery
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ausvsac/Ouyen.htm
INGRAM Ann
Father McDougall Alexander Mother Elizabeth GRANT
At Mildura 78 years 1942 Reg#28053
The Mildura Rural City Council hold cemetery records.
http://www.mildura.vic.gov.au/page/page.asp?page_id=32
McDOUGALL James
Father McDougall Alexander Mother Elizabeth GRANT
At Shepparton 75 years 1942 Reg#23794
http://www.greatershepparton.com.au/ourregion/cemeteries/
PRYOR Mary Jane
Father McDougall Alexander Mother Elizabeth GRANT
At East Brunswick 67 years 1940 Reg#8087
Buried at Fawkner Cemetery
http://165.228.105.134/deceaseddetail.asp?ServiceID=71661&location=R/C*R***3165&Cemetery=Fawkner
DOYLE Elizabeth
Father Mcdougall Alexander Mother Elizabeth GRANT
At Horsham 66 years 1940 Reg#15896
Died 20 Feb 1940 aged 66 years and buried at Horsham with husband John DOYLE who died on 26 Apr 1961 aged 85 years.
BARNES Margaret
Father McDougall Alexander Mother Elizabeth GRANT
At Werribee 1954 Reg#23970
McDOUGALL Robert Grant
Father Alexander Mother Elizabeth GRANT
At Dandenong 78 years 1957 Reg#19503
A possible place of burial could be Cheltenham Cemetery
http://www.focrc.org/locategrave.htm
BRENNAN Catherine Gertrude
Father McDougall Alexander Mother Elizabeth GRANT
At Horsham 94 years 1969 Reg#26185
Is not on the list of headstones at Horsham.
Cheers
Cando
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Porgi, We have recently come across your search for family. If your father is Albert John then the John McDougall born in 1861 in Coleraine is your Great Grandfather, Alexander McDougall and Betsey Grant/McDougall are your Great Great Grandparents, and Alexander McDougall and Ann McDonald/McDougall (buried Coleraine Cemetary) are your Great Great Great Grandparents. We are part of that family.
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The family grows and grows!!!
Since logging my original post in an effort to find the 'right' Alexander McDougall I have received some extremely helpful advice from others who have trod the same path.
Amazingly once you get a couple of bits of information things start to happen and the pieces fit together!!
As a result I have just returned from Scotland where we were able to locate the farm (Drumsallie) where our common ancestors Alexander and Anne McDougall and their family where cleared from in the 1850s. It is at the very end of Loch Eil and is still intact.
It was an eerie experience.
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Porgi, We would be very interested in any other information you found. We have just finished a booklet "From Scotland the Brave via Portland 1855: Alexander and Ann McDougall and their family" ; and already have more information to add to it. Would love to hear what other information you found.
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At this time I know little about the Mc Dougalls / McDonalds prior to the 'clearance' of Alexander and Anne from Drummsallie farm by the Lord Cameron who described them as 'the poorest of cotters....' other than the census details from 1851.
I have some details about their trip to Portland on the Derry Castle which was not a happy one as the youngest daughter Euphemia took ill and passed away during the voyage.
It took some time to work out exactly which Alexander McDougall was fom my line as their were some 5 or 6 Alexander McDougalls in the area at the time. with some help from contributors to Rootschat I was able to sort out Alexander and Betsey (Grant) McDougall and using online Victorian Historical BDMs I was able to get most of my grat grand father John's siblings.
Another member of the McDougall family contacted me and kindly gave me a little more detail about my GGrandfather John and how he ended up in Port McDonnell SA.
I am under the impression that the McDonald from Anne my GGGgrandmother's side of the family are from the Isle of Skye. However I have do not have any census of birth death marriage certificate to prove this at the moment.
I have alos been able to get some further infromation about the 'Grant' side from Betsey which is very interesting through online records and internet and we visited the place John Grant was born in Rothiemoon (Near Grantown on Spey)a couple of weeks ago in Scotland.
It is really quite a jigsaw puzzle!!!
Regards