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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Dave MT on Wednesday 01 December 10 15:19 GMT (UK)
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Trying to find the Marriage of Charles Treadwell to Mary Wilson.
Have Birth Cert of there girl Lilian Caroline Treadwell but can not find a Marriage for them.
Address on cert 298 Kensal Road, Kensal Town.
Any can Help
Thanks
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Hello Dave
What date do you have for the birth of Lillian ?
Alan
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Ok Dave found her birth in Chelsea b1894 Dec Q but no luck so far on a marriage for the Parents :(
Alan
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The date is 16 Nov 1894
Thanks
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Do you have them on any censuses?
By 1911 I think they may be indexed as "TREADNELL" and Mary Ann listed as a widow.
The usual reasons you might not be able to find a marriage:
a) different names used (mother was married before, first names/middle names swapped around, different spellings, aliases, etc).
b) marriage took place outside England/Wales
c) marriage took place much later than expected (well after birth of the children, for example)
d) marriage didn't take place.
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Lilian Caroline Treadwell was baptised at St Thomas's North Kensington,on 13th Jan 1895 dad is Charles and mum Mary Ann.....the address given was 298 Kensal Road. Dad is a dustman.
It is possible of course that they never did marry and if Charles died young maybe they just never got round to it?
Carol
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Dave, is there any way that Mary might have been married before? The only Charles Treadwell marriage I can see that might make any sense is in 1884 - did Lilian have elder brothers and sisters?
That Charles Treadwell marriage is in Wandsworth, Q1 1884, Vol 1d, page 683. The bride is Mary Ann Jones. I just wondered if Mary could have been a widowed Mrs Jones when they married? On Lilian's birth certificate it should give the mother's maiden name but not necessarily both surnames if she had been widowed. Just a thought.
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There is a 1901 census that looks suspiciously like the family
Charles hd age 43 ocup. Coachman? bn Sudbury Suffolk
Hetty wife age 44 bn Portsmouth Hants.
Ernest son age 18 bn Chelsea London
Lillian dau age 6 bn Chelsea London
Living at 55, Golborne Gardens, Kensington
RG13/30/127/61
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With a much older child it suggests that dad may have been married before,and maybe not free to marry again?
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In 1891- at 4 Dart Street Chelsea
Charles Treadwell 31 carman b Sudbury(but this time in Middx!)
Mary A wife 32 born on the sea ;)
Ernest Chr Singales 9 visitor b Kilburn
RG12/55 folio 184 page 23
Carol
I think this is his birth Ernest Charles Treadwell in Chelsea in Mar 1883 ref 1a 410-maybe we should be looking for a marriage much early than we first thought
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Hi all
Baptism;
25 Feb 1883
Sudbury
Ernest Charles Treadwell s/o Charles Treadwell (coalman) and Caroline Jane
deb
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Following Alan's post I went looking for Ernest, the older brother.
Possible baptism:
25 Feb 1883. Ernest Charles. Parents, Charles and Caroline Jane.
Baptism was in Harrow St Mary, but it appeared they lived in Sudbury?
Charles was a coalman.
Perhaps Caroline died and Charles married again? As Carol says, such a gap between the children often suggests differing marriages
[Sorry Deb - collided!]
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And a possible first marriage.If it IS Sudbury in Middx ;)
Marriages Sep 1880
Treadwell Charles Hendon 3a 186
Worth Caroline Hendon 3a 186
They're in West ham in 1881 and she's born in Plymouth in 1857.
Charles is b in Sudbury Middx and is a Bricklayer!
Carol
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More possible children (Kilburn area):
Baptisms: St Augustine, Paddington
27 Mar 1889 William s/o Charles TREADWELL (carman) and Mary Ann, of 26 Herries St
4 May 1892 Florence May d/o Charles TREADWELL (carman) and Mary, of 5 Albert Rd
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I wondered about those children too.
Looks like there were 6 children born to them but sadly 4 of them died.
Here's two of the deaths.
Deaths Sep 1895
Florence May Treadwell age 3 in Chelsea ref 1a 233
Deaths Dec 1890
William Treadwell age 2 in Chelsea ref 1a 250
Carol
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That Charles Treadwell marriage is in Wandsworth, Q1 1884, Vol 1d, page 683. The bride is Mary Ann Jones. .
This Marriage is on the London index;
Mar 16, 1884
Battersea St George the Martyr
Charles Treadwell, 42, widower, gas fitter,
Mary Ann Jones, 47, widow father = George CAWTE?
so not them I'm afraid. :-\
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Thanks for the info.
What I have so far is Charles Treadwell aged 24 and Labman married a Caroline Worth aged 24 on the 27 Sept 1880 got this form marriage cert. They had a Son named Ernest Charles Treadwell on the 9 Jan 1883 Occupation of father was a Carman. maiden name of mother was WORTH and they lived at 164 Kilbun Lane.
and I also have a copy of birth cert for Lilian Caroline Treadwell But i wonder if it is from the same family now.
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Alan, your last post yesterday on the 1901 census is where i picked up on there was daughter. also Charles would be the right age and so would Ernest. also where they lived would be in the right place. so i ordered the birth cert of Lilian and that when i found out that there was a differant mother i.e. Mary Treadwell (Wilson)
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In 1891- at 4 Dart Street Chelsea
Charles Treadwell 31 carman b Sudbury(but this time in Middx!)
Mary A wife 32 born on the sea ;)
Ernest Chr Singales 9 visitor b Kilburn
RG12/55 folio 184 page 23
Who is Ernest Chr SINGALES, visitor .... Is he Ernest Charles TREADWELL? If so why has he been enumerated with a different surname and has status of visitor and not son?
If Charles married Caroline in 1880 and is with Mary Ann by 1891 ...we should be able to find a death for Caroline.
deb
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There is another baptism for a child of Charles and Caroline
John Treadwell (ADULT)
27 March 1880
Add: 5 Loder street
Parents;
Charles Treadwell, Carman and Caroline
hummm ... this is months BEFORE Charles and Caroline married
children of Charles and Mary Ann=
William Treadwell 27 Mar 1889 , Herries st dad; Carman (died ,,see Carol's post)
Florence Mary Treadwell 4 May 1892 , Albert rd; dad Carman (died; see ditto)
Lilian Caroline Treadwell 13 Jan 1895 , 298 Kensal rd; dad dustman
Winifred Mabel Treadwell 10 Jan 1897 , 270, Kensal rd, dad; carman died: Jun q 1898, Chelsea
how sad!
deb
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Yes I wondered who the Ernest Chr Singales was too ,but would guess that it should be Treadwell.
What a complicated family and how sad that so many of their children died.
Carol
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it's very odd ... Singales is a strange name. How would the enumerator have mixed it up ?Mary Ann (born on the sea) has a ditto under Treadwell...it would have been easy to ditto Ernest Charles aswell :-\
Have been looking for the Treadwell /Wilson marriage ...using Wilson.... ohhh myyy tooo many Mary Ann Wilsons ...I have gone through marriages from 1882-1891 ...no Wilson/Threadwell marriages!
:-\
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Have been looking for the Treadwell /Wilson marriage ...using Wilson.... ohhh myyy tooo many Mary Ann Wilsons ...I have gone through marriages from 1882-1891 ...no Wilson/Threadwell marriages!
:-\
My personal feeling is that they never did marry and that Caroline(first wife) didn't die in time for them to do so. :o
Carol
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ummm maybe we should follow Caroline ...maybe a death/ remarriage or even just finding her in 1891 and 1901.
Caroline was bc 1857, Plymouth Devon.
will have a look for her!
deb
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There is a 1901 census that looks suspiciously like the family
Charles hd age 43 ocup. Coachman? bn Sudbury Suffolk
Hetty wife age 44 bn Portsmouth Hants.
Ernest son age 18 bn Chelsea London
Lillian dau age 6 bn Chelsea London
Living at 55, Golborne Gardens, Kensington
RG13/30/127/61
I was just wondering who Hetty was,that Alan so cleverly found yesterday :-*
The place of birth,isn't on the sea(Mary Ann) nor is it Plymouth (Caroline)
Hmmmmm ::)
What's Hetty short for? And could Portsmouth be Plymouth.........both those places are On the sea of course!
Carol
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it's very odd ... Singales is a strange name. How would the enumerator have mixed it up ?Mary Ann (born on the sea) has a ditto under Treadwell...it would have been easy to ditto Ernest Charles aswell :-\
:-\
My own thought on the matter is that when asked by the Enumerator who was living at the address when getting to his son Charles simply said 'Ernest Charles, Single age 9'
The Enumerator took Charles at his word thinking Singles was a surname and the child was no relation therefore a Visitor
Alan
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I agree with you, Alan ...there's no other explaination.
:)
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Good thinking Alan- you should have been an enumerator back in a previous life ;D
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Looking at FreeBMD I can only find two Caroline Worth's both born June in 1844 at Plymouth Vol 9 Page414 and Vol 9 page 424.
But Caroline Worth was only 24 in 1880 when see got married. So it can not be them as it would make her 36 when she got married. They cloud not be 12 years out??
Dave
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I think Mary Ann was a witness at Ernest Charles Treadwell's marriage: she signed her name :)
Ernest Charles Treadwell , 24, bachelor, labourer, 115 Warrington rd, dad= Charles Treadwell, labourer
he signed
4 Aug 1907,Notting Hill, Christ Church, Kensington, to
Harriett Cooke , 26, spinster, Edenham Street, dad= William Cooke, Scaffolder
her mark
witnesses;
Albert Barr
Mary Ann Treadwell
deb
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Thanks Deb,
Yes Ernest Charles Treadwell is my Great Grandfarther and I have the marrage cert for that, and yes Mary Ann Treadwell is the witness. But is she also the mother of Lilian Caroline Treadwell!!!!
Dave
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On Caroline's marriage cert she is 24, father = George Worth, Lab
(BTW ,,Charles Treadwell was 22)
1861
St Andrews, Plymouth
George Worth, 31, Mariner, b Plymouth
Mary Ann wife 26 b ditto
Caroline dau, 4 b ditto
ummm transcribed as WARTH... ages are out??
1871
Castle Street, St Andrew
George Worth, 34,bargeman, b Plymouth
Mary wife 28 b ditto
Caroline, dau, 12, b ditto
John Major, nephew, 4
Hi Dave >.. Have you seen the orginal marriage cert ?
ooo I thought you came from Lillian Caroline.... so your gr gr grandmother is Caroline Worth :)
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Hi Deb,
Yes I got a copy of the marriage cert this year and Caroline Worth is my Gr.Gr.Grand mother.
Dave
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I wonder what happened to Caroline? Can't find a death neither her birth :-\
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I Know No Birth or Death but I have a marriage Cert how Weird???
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Closest possible is Susan Caroline Treadwell d. 1886 aged 36 in Chelsea district - but I'm not sure about her at all (can't see a clear hit for her on the 1881 census though).
Or she and Charles might have split up, and she used a different name on later censuses.
Can't see a marriage for her parents, either. :(
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Hi Cousin Dave
The only Charles and Caroline on 1881 is as follows, they may not be yours though but worth a possibilty that they may be
3 FRANCIS ST WEST HAM
REF RG11/1715 FOLIO 58 PAGE 3
Charles Treadwell aged 22 bricklayer born Sudbury
Caroline 24 born Plymouth Devon
Alice Treadwell visitor born London
Take care
Louisa Maud
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Hi Louisa Maud,
I have that one as it would seam that the Alice Treadwell would have been his sister I think.
Dave
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I sent that as jorose said he couldn't find it on 1881, every littLe helps
LM
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They're in West ham in 1881 and she's born in Plymouth in 1857.
Charles is b in Sudbury Middx and is a Bricklayer!
Carol
I had found it back at reply number 12- but as the 1881 is free to search I didn't type all the details up :D
Carol
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I didn't go all the way back to search through, thanks Carol
LM
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I am sure Mary Ann wasn't married , and she was born at sea, born 1858, I cannot put on here what I have found but Dave MT is a relative of mine so I will share what I have found with him
Louisa Maud
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Mary A TREDWELL
Death 1927 aged 70
Kensington RD
I agree it is spelt incorrectly but so often this surname has been, fits in with 1857 date of birth
Louisa Maud
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I have searched the census for Mary Ann Wilson that might fit in, no joy so far, I do wonder if she was "born at sea" where she would be baptised, then in another census she states "Portsmouth" with a christian name of Hetty, was she Henrietta Mary Wilson I wonder, still searching Dave
LM
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Was there a death of Charles born circa 1858 Sudbury found?, there is one on 1911 living at 130 Southam St which comes under Kensington aged 50, occ labourer, nothing written in space of place of birth, if he was lodging at this house of George Wakelin and family, possibly Agnes Wakelin, (who signed) wasn't sure of his details and guessed his birth years, makes me wonder if Charles and Mary Ann were living apart only a short distance away from each other.
1911 Mary Ann was living at 44 Beethoven Street, where it asks "years of present marriage " it is left blank, "widow" has been written in column 5 in red, something was crossed out in this column that had been written by Agnes, can't fathom out what it was, and so the mystery goes on
LM