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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Harold1066 on Thursday 25 November 10 19:36 GMT (UK)

Title: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: Harold1066 on Thursday 25 November 10 19:36 GMT (UK)
Hi,

Hope somebody can identify the regiment for the man in Uniform in this picture - sorry if quality is not too good - have not got access to the original photo to get another scan.

We believe the medals he is wearing are the Queens and Kings (with bar) South Africa Medals and that the photo was taken sometime before 1910.

Looking forward to replies since identifying the regiment may help us identify the person.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: gortonboy on Thursday 25 November 10 19:39 GMT (UK)
hi,,if u have an idea of the medals,,,do u have an idea of who it might be,,,and if so,,,who do u think it could be?   
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: Harold1066 on Thursday 25 November 10 20:07 GMT (UK)
Sorry, no we only know two people for definite in the photo one is my wife's Grand-father and my wife's grandmother - she is the Bridesmaid sat next to the Groom.  Hence we are hoping by identifying his regiment we may be able to find out if he is a relation.

We know the medals because somebody else identified them for us, however, we are not sure if he got the regiment right.
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: neil1821 on Thursday 25 November 10 20:19 GMT (UK)
I'd like to see a close-up before forming an opinion.
Can you re-scan it again?
Crop out everyone else (they're not relevant), we just need to see the chap in uniform in as much detail as possible.
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: elinga on Thursday 25 November 10 20:40 GMT (UK)
not sure of the Regiment , but I think he may have a kilt on!
recognise the jacket from some old photos!
good luck!
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: Harold1066 on Thursday 25 November 10 22:08 GMT (UK)
neil1821 - Sorry as I said in my original post I don't have access to the original photograph it belongs to another relative in another part of the country.  We only got a copy because we held a family reunion and I managed to persuade people to lend me their old photographs so I could scan them into the computer and make picture DVDs for everyone.

elinga - that would fit with something else we were told - but that has now been called into question hence the request for somebody to identify the regiment.

Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: km1971 on Friday 26 November 10 07:25 GMT (UK)
He is NOT wearing the QSA and KSA.

(http://usera.ImageCave.com/km1971/Sudan.jpg)

My guess is the Queens Sudan Medal and Khedives Medal with two clasps. You should put the photograph on the Photo section for a dating. One rule of thumb I picked up there was that by 1910 men would have a crease down their trousers. The two on the front row don't.

The QSM would not have been issued until 1900 at the earliest.

The experts on the Photo section should also be able to tell you about the etiquette of where relatives stood. One side seems to be lacking in parents, or at least a father.

Ken
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: John Young on Friday 26 November 10 09:02 GMT (UK)
He's a Colour-Sergeant in the Seaforth Highlanders, one of the two Highland regiments involved in the reconquest of the Sudan in 1898.  The other Highland regiment was the Cameron Highlanders, however, they wore a blue facing.  The Seaforths were present at the battles of Atabara, 8th April 1898 & Omdurman, (near Khartoum) 5th September 1898.  That being the case the two clasps on Khedive's Sudan Medal which Ken has identified would read The Atabara & Khartoum.

The double-badge on the collar is the clincher, and you can just make out the sporran behind the bride's veil.

Isandlwana

Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: lochee on Friday 26 November 10 19:55 GMT (UK)
Hi, Isandlwana
What is the double-badge on the collar ?
Bob.
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: Harold1066 on Friday 26 November 10 20:14 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the information. 

New Question:  Given this is a Scottish Regiment what is the likelihood that this is somebody from Hampshire / Berkshire area of the country? 

The Family we are looking at have no Scottish connections as far as we know.

This information goes against what another military "expert", whom I will not name, told us (goes to show you need to double check everything) - The information we were originally told was as follows:

1.  The medals were the Queen & Kings South Africa Medals.

2.  The uniform was that of the Highland Light Infantry (either First or Second Battalion) - and these did not wear a kilt! - How somebody has said about the sporran I can just make it out.

We have had the photo dated as early 1900's and pre 1910.

We also do not believe that the parents of the Groom & Bride are sitting in the right places - since we are pretty certain that the bride is one of my wife's Grand Aunts on her Grandfather's side and his parents are on the left (her great grand-father is the one holding the dog).

Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: John Young on Friday 26 November 10 21:27 GMT (UK)
Bob,

The larger of the two badges is an elephant above the scroll Assaye.  The smaller one is a thistle bearing the Star of the Order of the Thistle, with a circle superimposed, within which is the cypher F of the late Duke of York, who was also the Duke of Albany (1853-1884).

The MacKenzie badge would have been much simplier!

Isandlwana
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: Harold1066 on Friday 26 November 10 22:11 GMT (UK)
Don't want to upset anybody - and please let me know if I'm wrong - but I have just "googled" the two medals mentioned below and have difficulty linking them both to the picture:

Queens Sudan Medal - Ribbon: Yellow & Black separated by a Crimson stripe - can see how that fits the medal nearest his buttons (light / dark).

Khedives Medal - Ribbon: Yellow - Blue - Yellow - whereas the one he has seems to be dark/light/dark - which does not make sense to us - we would expect it to be Light/Dark/Light.
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: John Young on Saturday 27 November 10 06:33 GMT (UK)
Harold,

Blame the photography at the time  - there is a phrase for it but it escapes me - yellow appears as a darker tone rather than a lighter one.

Isandlwana
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: km1971 on Saturday 27 November 10 08:18 GMT (UK)
Also:

= There is a noticeable gap between the two clasps on a KSA, but not (as here) on a 2-clasp Khedives medal.

= You could not receive a KSA without also receiving a QSA medal. There is no QSA.

Ken
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: elinga on Saturday 27 November 10 17:22 GMT (UK)
Hi again Harold
I did see something that I thought may have been a sporran but didnt want to say!
as I said before I am an amateur but a scottish one at that ;-)
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: lochee on Saturday 27 November 10 20:16 GMT (UK)
Hi, Isandlwana,
Try as I might I cannot make out what the collar dogs are, your sight must be better than mine.
However, I hate to be pedantic but, the Elephant superscribed Assaye was granted in 1803.
The cipher F and Coronet of HRH The Duke of York and Albany (1763-1827) was granted in 1823.
The Duke of Albany that you refer to (1853-1884) was Leopold who was Colonel of the Regiment,
his Cipher L with a coronet was borne on the cap badge worn by officers and warrant officers, this was adopted at the request of Queen Victoria.
Regards
Bob.
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: John Young on Sunday 28 November 10 14:23 GMT (UK)
Bob,

Thanks for the clarification re-the Dukes of Albany, I must admit I was somewhat confused by the text of J.S. Farmer's The Regimental Records of the British Army 1660-1901 regarding the cyphers.

(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h4/Isandlwana/Seaforthbadges.jpg)
The collar badge & cypher from J.S. Farmer's work.

I can certainly see two distinct badges on the Colour-Sergeant's collar, given that the only other Highland regiment with a double-badge on their collar was the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders and that the image in the photograph looks nothing like the A. & S. H.'s badge, I discounted them.

Do you not think he is a Seaforth then?

Isandlwana
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: lochee on Sunday 28 November 10 16:12 GMT (UK)
Hi, Isandlwana,
I am having doubts about his regiment. Someone mentioned that the top of his sporran is showing.
It is far too low (it would'nt cover his colour sgt let alone his privates) Could he be holding his head dress?
Regards
Bob.
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: John Young on Tuesday 30 November 10 21:13 GMT (UK)
Bob,

No I'm still of the opinion that's a sporran, rather than a glengarry, or any other headress.

I've now found a photograph of a Seaforth Highlander, c. 1890, with his kit laid-out, having examined it I've got the collar badges the wrong way around in my reply.  The cypher is the larger badge of the two, and the elephant the smaller.

Isandlwana
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: lochee on Wednesday 01 December 10 15:16 GMT (UK)
Hi, Isandlwana,
I wasn't doubtful of him being a Seaforth, I was doubtful of him being of any highland regiment.
The sporran should be worn about three fingers width below the belt. This is not as it is in the picture. If Harold 1066 would come up with more information, perhaps we could resolve the problem.
Regards
Bob.
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: John Young on Wednesday 01 December 10 16:01 GMT (UK)
Bob,

I think we'll agree to differ.

As to three fingers width below the belt, I assume that some of these Seaforths from an 1896 publication have very large fingers, if you'll forgive my pun.

(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h4/Isandlwana/Seaforthgroup1896.jpg)

As to him not being a Highlander, and wearing a doublet, then the only option would be a Lowland regiment none of which fit the bill for double-badges.

Isandlwana
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: lochee on Wednesday 01 December 10 19:17 GMT (UK)
Hi, Isandlwana,
I think you are right, we should agree to disagree.
Regards
Bob.
Title: Re: Help - Identify Regiment
Post by: Harold1066 on Wednesday 01 December 10 20:29 GMT (UK)
With regard to supplying more information - I've given all I have - other then somebody on the Picture Dating forum as much as possible confirmed what we suspected that is was taken in 1906. 

If it was 1906 I have the relevant Marriage certificate and have just checked and one of the witnesses was: John MacKenzie - which would sort of fit with the Scottish theme.

Guess I now need to find out whether there was a Colour Sargeant MacKenzie in the Seaforths in 1906.

Thanks for the help - In a way glad its got people thinking.