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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: ScottFive on Thursday 25 November 10 04:38 GMT (UK)
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I am searching for any decendants of this lady - b.1869 in New South Wales, m.1889 , d.1964 in Western Australia - who may know about her HUSBAND:
Charles Smith b.1858 in Brighton England and d. 1907 in Western Australia ?
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Hi there,
In case you don't have it, a little round-up of the family when their daughter Linda died
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/41429012?searchTerm=%22amelia%20victoria%20smith%22&searchLimits=
(Deaths, the last entry in the first column)
Do you have Charles' parents' names from his marriage cert?
Debra :)
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There seems to be only one death for a Charles SMITH in 1907 in WA and he was only 23 according to cemetery records
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0aiy/
Debra
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SMITH, CHARLES
REG at YORK
REg no.16
Year1907
This man if he is the same one, is buried at Karrakatta and has a second given name of ROBERT.
Although AMELIA is also at KARRAKATTA, she was cremated and is not located near this CHARLES.
The three children I can see born in WA do not include a LINDA.
I do note there were more than one AMELIA VICTORIA SMITH around at the time.
Perhaps if she is theirs, she was born eleswhere.
SMITH,ROSE Father CHARLES Mother TIPPETT AMELIA VICTORIA. At SWAN. REG 4608 Yr.1899
SMITH, WILLIAM NORMAN Father CHARLES mother TIPPET AMELIA VICTORIA at YORK REG7335 Year 1904
SMITH, FREDERICK JAMES Father CHARLES Mother TIPPETT AMELIA VICTORIA At GREENMOUNT Reg.5228 Year1901
Sue
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Ah yes,
It all started in NSW
The marriage
REG2721 In1889 SMITH CHARLES
To TIPPETT AMELIA V.
At NEWTOWN
Births
REG 33108 In 1890 SMITH ELEANOR
FatherCHARLES
MotherAMELIA V
SUNNY CORNER
REg 27956 In 1893 SMITH LINDA
FtherCHARLES
Mother AMELIA V
At ORANGE
REG25436 In 1895 SMITH DAVID G
FatherCHARLES
MotherAMELIA V
At ORANGE
REG5813 In 1897 SMITH CHARLES O
Father CHARLES
Mother AMELIA V
At ORANGE
Sue
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Hi Debra and Sue,
Thanks so much for your responses; some helpful info there; much appreciated.
I am trying to find anyone from the Smith/Tippett tree who knows anything about Charles Smith's life after he left Brighton (where he was born) and before he married my great grandmother Amelia. I am trying to confirm a family story that he was a musician (a lead violinist playing in Gilbert and Sullivan Productions in the 1880s) of which I have another post for:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,497083.msg3541329.html#msg3541329
Sue: is it the case that his death was REGISTERED at York, but he was buried in Karrakatta? How do you know his other name was Robert?
Debra: Yes I have his marriage certificate and parents names. But what I NEED to find out about is this story that he was a 'topnotch' violinist! (I'm working on the theory that someone in the tree must know something about his early life in Australia...)
Scott.
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Hi Scott,
There was a Charles Robert SMITH whose death was registered in 1907 in WA. He was 23 years old and I gave the link to his funeral notice in my previous post; he is buried at Karrakatta cemetery. This appeared to be the ONLY registered death for a Charles SMITH in that year, so I was just concerned that you had the incorrect year. However on doing a wildcard search there are two - one who I assume is yours at York and Charles Robert who is indexed as Chares not Charles. I did not think it necessary to use a wildcard when searching for a name like that, but it just goes to show that even Charles SMITH can be spelt wrong!!
Debra :)
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Hi
We clearly have some confusions between two men here and Debra has clarified it. I will add my thoughts too.
The burial of the man at KARRAKATTA which I have transcribed below, is the man referred to in the newspaper (by the date and specific location advised in the notice.)
The cemetery has his name as with ROBERT as a second given, but the newspaper notice omits this.
The BDM index has him as Chares R Smith or East Perth aged 23.
Also on the index is CHARLES SMITH without (R) of York. Same year
I see no burial for this second man at KARRAKATTA.
Therefore,I would think we can disregard the CHARES ROBERT and the newspaper notice as not being your man.
Do you agree ? ;D
CHARLES ROBERT SMITH
Aged 23 Date 22/12/1907 Of EAST PERTH
Grave Location
KARRAKATTA CEMETERY WESLEYAN AA 0036A
http://www.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/search.php
http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx
Debra: Yes I have his marriage certificate and parents names. But what I NEED to find out about is this story that he was a 'topnotch' violinist! (I'm working on the theory that someone in the tree must know something about his early life in Australia...) Scottfive
ScottFive, It is possible that someone with the first hand knowledge you seeking willl turn up , but as researchers--unrelated to your people--, we can only help by starting with what we can find on your family and, moving forward (and sideways etc.).
We hope that the path will lead to an answer.
Sue
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Thanks again Sue and Debra for your input!
Yes, the Charles buried at York is the right one.
Eventually, I am hoping to solve this life-long family 'mystery' about what he DID when he came out to here...
Scott.
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Hi
am also great grandson of Amelia and Charles, my mother is Linda Smith daughter of Charles Ovide son of Charles and Amelia. Charles senior was a musician according to my mother but we would love to hear more of your research. I stumbled across you questions here while trying find information on Amelia Victoria for my mother Linda.
Regards
Graeme
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ScottFive,
Could this be him?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14103146?searchTerm=charles smith violin&searchLimits=
Boy Scout
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Hello there, great to have found this. Charles and Amelia are also my great grandparents, their child Norman (one of eight) is my grandfather. He was musically talented, played the piano, saxophone and violin. My father and I have been trying to find out more about Charles also. We knew Charles died in his 40s and Amelia was a midwife and one of the first registered in WA in 1912 I think, at Dangin, and is recognised in the WA 150th Anniversary honour roll. We also know she ran a boarding house sometime prior to 1912 (likely prior to 1907), though where is unknown. Somehow she ended up on a farm in Narembeen between 1912 -1929. She was released from bankruptcy in 1912 so I'm wondering if Charles was a part of the boarding house and had to claim bankruptcy after he died
On my grandparents marriage certificate it states Charles as a musician. We also have a photo of Amelia with children but no Charles dated 1909. Wonderful to find family :)
Cheers
Carolyn
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I am SO sorry for my late reply! I have not accessed this site for some time as I have had to put my family-history research on hold for a number of months.
To 'Boy Scout': Thank you VERY much for this article. It is the break-through I have been looking for. I searched 'TROVE' myself but was unable to find anything. This is greatly appreciated; I'm amazed you found it. I can't thank you enough for this!!
Graeme/Carolyn: more relations; nice to meet you!
I'm desperate to find any information about Charles Smith as to when he left Brighton (and why) and how he got to Australia. Have searched passenger lists, but to no avail. Speculating with my dad (Kingsley Smith, son of David, son of Charles & Amelia) we thought he may have come-out touring with the Saddlers Wells Theatre company, but that has always seemed unlikely to me (he is listed as a 'plumber' in the 1881 cencus in Brighton). But now it is confirmed that he WAS a talented musician, at least.
Carolyn: I spoke to my dad (whose 82 now) and he says that - After Charles died Amelia had the boarding house in Beverley, but it burnt-down (hence the bankruptcy?). However, I cannot find anything to verify this. She did have a boarding house in Dangin, though, but this seems to have failed, and she teamed up with a chap called Parker (who established the town) and managed the Temperance Hotel in Dangin [because of this, a regular 'drinking' hotel was built in nearby Quairading]. Amelia's daughter, Rose, married Cecil parker (Jonah Parkers's son) and was helping her mother with these ventures. Amelia and her sons (David - my grandfather - Charles, Norman, Leslie, and Fred I think) then went to manage a large farm at Narembeen owned by Baird's (a large Perth concern) which is how they ended up in Narembeen.
So, thank you all for your input; my research continues... Scott.
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Hello again Scott :)
I have more info on our Charles. In 1887 Amelia was training as a nurse at Royal Melbourne Hosp. where she met Charles who had just come out to be 1st violinist with Gilbert & Sullivan in Sydney and Melbourne. He came out here after he spent many years studying at the Brighton Conservatory of Music, and when he obtained his degree he was presented with four leather bound, signed volumes of all original G&S scores. En route to Australia, in Italy he purchased two violins, an Amati and a Stradivarius made in Cremona in 1728. For 8 yrs they travelled with the G&S group and four kids during this time. In 1894 the company broke up and Charles then teamed up with the talented pianist Paderewski. For two years they had a shop in Pitt St Sydney selling pianos, repairing violins, teaching and playing concerts. Paderewski eventually returned to Poland where he became Prime Minister. After this Amelia and Charles were struggling and David, Amelia's father, paid for them to travel by steamer to Perth, then onto the goldfields of Western Aust. where her brothers owned pastrycook shops and David was a successful miner, later owning a gold mine named Last Chance at Kanowna, 50km's north east of Kalgoorlie when Paddy Hannan found gold. After he died Charles took over the mine for a year, until the gold ran out. They started to head back to Perth when Charles became despondant, his hands blistered and ravaged from working the land, was told by the Tippets to leave and make his own way. He moved to Maylands Perth where he owned a paper run, taught music and eventually playing more concerts. Amelia and kids then joined him there. Rosie was born in Maylands and 1901 Fred was born in Kalamunda, then Norm and Leslie. In 1904 they moved to Beverley and in 1907 Charles became sick and died at York Hospital, buried in unmarked grave number 19 in York Cemetery.
Amelia was in dire straits and encouraged to place the kids in care, when she said "as long as I have ten fingers on my hands I will never allow one of my children to be in the states care!'. She took on a boarding house in Vincent St, Beverley, housing and feeding 40 workers building the Newbys Hotel. She went to York to pay the final of funeral expenses leaving an elderly lady in charge of the house and kids, a fire broke out in a nearby building which quickly engulfed the boarding house. The older girls saved the music and violins and the workers grabbed up the tablecloths complete with the cutlery and crockery on them. Despite this, Amelia immediately moved to another house and continued to cook for the workers. It is at the boarding house where she met J S W Parker as he was staying there.
Soon after the fire (bankruptcy) Amelia worked at Jonah Parkers Dangin Hotel, but left there when he applied for a liqueur license. She became Matron at the Dangin Maternity Hospital and the kids weren't allowed on the hospital grounds so were left to entertain themselves. One day Fred and brothers wanted to play cricket and needed a bat. They eyed their dads large case containing original G&S and other beautiful Opera scores and his violins. They took the Armati, because it was old and dirty, and used it as a bat. Quickly it was smashed to pieces and they hid it under the house. It was many years later before Amelia even noticed it missing, and couldn't care less. Those beautiful instruments caused too much pain and misery.
By the time Amelia and kids had returned to Perth to live with Charles all but one volume of music had been destroyed by white ants and water. The surviving G&S volume is in the family possession (one of Fred's sister-in laws) and the beautiful 1728 Stradivarius is playing in the Hobart Opera Company.
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Hi Carolyn,
Thanks so much for this info. I have heard bits and pieces of this before from my dad which he says came from writings done by uncle Fred, but he was not sure how accurate some of it was.
I have done some preliminary research and can find no reference to a 'Brighton Conservatory of Music'. It could be that he may have gone to the Royal College of Music in London, which I will eventually follow up with.
As regards to Paderewski, I have found that this gentleman was only in Australia on tour for a short time, playing in Sydney in August 1904 and then left for New Zealand (Charles and Amelia were in WA by then). I can find no reference to this shop in Sydney either (have looked at business and street directories of the time). However there is a music-shop in Sydney of this period in the name of a (Polish) person with a similar type of name. I will eventually follow-up with this also (but don't have the time at the moment).
I'm also going to try to get more information about this mine at Kanowna, if I can. I was in Kalgoorlie not so long ago and visited David Tippett's grave (I have a lot of information about the Tippetts from a family-history book that was published a few years ago, and from my own research).
The cricket bat story I reckon is absolutely genuine, if somewhat tragic! Your listing of the children checks-out: Eva (Ella), Linda & David (my grandfather) being born over East; Charles Ovide, Rose, Frederick, William (Norm) and Leslie being born in WA.
Bye for now ... Scott.
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Hi Scott and Carolyn, I am Fred's son Errol.
I had heard all these stories from my Dad and this is what started my search for some accuracy and truth in what seemed to me to be a an incredible story. My father went to his grave still feeling extreme guilt over destroying the violin (by playing cricket with it). The information that I have found on Charles and his career is very interesting, and yet does not have the degree of continuity or proof that these things really happened. I have pages written by my father that recollect the fire at the boarding house and the events after. I still remain confused over how a Brighton plumber came to be a musician. If possible I would like to, make contact with you both and my mobile is Removed if you choose to contact me.
Cheers
Errol Smith
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Hi Errol
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
Scott hasn't been online here for a few weeks but should recieve an email notification that we have posted and hopefully come back soon.
If you haven't done so already, please take a moment to read our guidelines for posting
http://www.rootschat.com/help/posting_guide.php
I'm sorry your phone number has been removed but as soon as you make another post, you wll be able to use the personal message system to exchange your details with others off-forum.
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Dawn
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Thanks Dawn,
Sorry I didn't think about the number contravening forum policy. I was that excited to see the thread and read the information.
My apologies,
Errol Smith
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We remove phone numbers and email addresses to protect you from unwanted contact from who knows who.
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Hi Errol (and Carolyn and Graeme),
Nice to hear from you. The trail on Charles Smith has run a bit cold for me lately. Yes, I too have wondered how a young man listed as a 'Plumber' (going by the 1881 census) could turn out to be such a talented musician. Maybe in Brighton it was just his 'day-job'?! I recently returned from a trip to the UK where I went to all the places where my ancestors came from including Charles. I went to Send & Ripley (in Surrey) where Charles's father George Smith came from and to Brighton where Mary Ann Jefferies was born and where the family later lived (where Charles was born and grew up). It was very interesting. (I also went to Swannage in Dorset where the Jefferies' come from.) I went to the Archives center at Woking, but could not get any breakthroughs regarding the family (particularly George's father who I'm sure is Thomas Smith, but could also be James Smith as I have conflicting information).
Errol, I think we can contact each other via the Personal-Messaging system on this site? Bye for now .... Scott (son of Kingsley Smith who is the son of David Smith).
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Hi there Scott Five,
You had better modify your post before a moderator does, as you have included a live email address.
Cheers, JM
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OK, thanks for that JM. Scott