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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: rla10 on Wednesday 24 November 10 20:36 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone, I'm looking for the baptism of Thomas Spencer.
Born abt 1780 in London.
His children all baptised at St Leonard's, Shoreditch, although he lived in Marylebone, in particular on York Street. One of his daughters married at St James's, Westminster which is in very close proximity to York Street, so he might have been baptised there. He might also have been baptised at a Huguenot Church, but I have no knowledge of these. He was also listed as living on Holywell lane for one of his children's baptisms. This is really all I know about him. Occupation of Weaver runs through the family so that might confirm him.
Appreciative of any help :)
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hi rla10
i've just googled huguenot churches in london and it is a virtual encylopedia, by the way york street is a fair distance from st james's (don't mean to be a party pooper) however, view google and you'll observe how the distribution is possible. good luck. tony
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sorry about this but my daughter asked if huguenots were bigger astronauts, can i have her sectioned? tony.
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Hi Tony,
I haven't actually looked at the distance between St James' and York Street, but I googled York Street and found the following info:
York Street
Westminster, St. James's. (SW1) Formerly called Petty France, from the number of French refugees who settled here on the revocation of the Edict of Nantes by Louis XIV. (Reference: Jesse's London, vol. I, p. 185) Named after the Duke of York, afterwards James II. This was the first street in London paved for foot-passengers. (Reference: Smith's Streets of London, p. 41)
I'm sure your daughter would suit a straight-jacket!
Ryan
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Tell your daughter thanks for the smiles her comment
produced,we could do with some smiles here in Dublin
at the moment.
;D
Anne
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Hi Ryan
There were two 'Petty Frances' in London, one in the west around Westminster, largely a community of soldiers, clock makers, goldsmiths, silversmiths, and one in the east largely made up of Silk Weavers and Manufacturers. There were smaller communites elsewhere, such as Chelsea, Hoxton, and across the water in Wandsworth there was a small community of Huguenot Felt Makers and Millliners. It's true that some families did have links to both Westminster and Spitalfields.
I have heard it mooted before that the Spencers Silk Weaving in the East End were of Huguenot stock, and it was originally Despencer. I've not actually found any evidence of that though. The particular family I researched seemed to be native English from Essex. Also this is a very broad, (but not entirely innacurate) generalisation, but I have found that the French families tended to live clustered in Spitalfields and Bethnal Green, whereas the English weavers, who were equally numerous were alot more predominate in Shoreditch. This was perhaps a division more pronounced early in the 18th century, and which slowly dissapeared altogether in the second half and early 19th century as the two communities intermarried more and more and eventually blended into one. I think if there is any truth in the Despencer tale it is probably the fact that the English Spencers may originate from the Norman Despencer family who certainly did come over many years before, and were infamously linked with Edward II and his endless succesion of troubles.
Do you have any particular reason to think Thomas Spencer was a Huguenot decendant, apart from the area and the link to weaving? He may well have been, though perhaps through his maternal line?
Regards
Richard
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Hi Richard,
Here are a few details about Thomas Spencer that lead me to think he might be of Huguenot descent:
Wife: Mary Beilling (surname linked to France)
He, along with his children were weavers, as you mentioned.
His daughter, my direct ancestor, Charlotte, married a William Bridges who was a silk weaver as was his father, grandfather and subsequent children.
William Bridges grandmother's maiden name is Simon, which might be French although I think perhaps a tad contrived.
On the Census returns for the later members of this family, they appear to live in communities of silk weavers - everyone on the same page is a silk weaver for many censuses.
On 3 our of 4 of Thomas' children's baptism records, he is listed as living on York Street and the only York Street I can find on modern and various older map of London is the one that is described as petty France on my post earlier.
I was a bit reticent and cautious about the York Street connection as most of those I am speaking about lived in the East End; however, the Charlotte Spencer I aforementioned lived in Bethnal Green with husband William Bridges, yet married at St James's, Westminster Piccadilly. So when St James's was mentioned in the same postcode as York Street, it all slotted into place.
When you say you researched for an Essex family, are speaking about in the 18th century, or you were researching the ancestor of a family that lives in Essex?
Ryan
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Hi Ryan
There is no trace of a Thomas Spencer baptised in the Huguenot Churches, and the only near match I can find in the East of London, is a Thomas Spencer baptised 5 Apr 1778 at Christchurch Spitalfields. His parents seem to have been married at St Leonards Shoreditch (Thomas Spencer and Elizabeth Taylor 27 Sep 1772). There are however a few possibilities for West London, so if he had links to both places, it's hard to say if any do relate to him.
Simon certainly was a surname present amongst the Huguenot families who settled in East London as silk weavers, so a connection is possible on that line.
The Spencer family I traced I did not go into greatly, but was through a Mary Ann Spencer, born in Bethnal Green 13 Jan 1802 a Silk Weaveress. Her father David Spencer was also a Silk Weaver in Bethnal Green, but was born around 1782 in Essex.
There was certainly always as many English families (and later Irish) making a living as journeymen weavers as French in the East End, and English Silk Weavers were in the area before any French arrived. My own family tree is a mixture of both! Likely will find it is the same for your ancestors. They intermarried pretty freely roughly from 1750 onwards.
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Hi Richard,
I have been searching endlessly in the East End and around Marylebone, in particular. Thomas' children were all baptised at St Leonard's Shoreditch, so that marriage you found for a possibility could well be them, but if there is no baptism for Thomas, it makes me wonder why they seemed to skip St Leonard's for Thomas' baptism. I have read stories from others with Huguenot ancestors that they baptised their children all over the place for no apparent reason.
Ryan
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I have various of examples in my own tree and others I've researched of these weaving families using both these churches. They were/are direct neighbouring parishes. In Spitalfields the journeymen weavers were mostly concentrated in the far north of the parish where the area borders and touches on st Leonards Shoreditch, and of course many did indeed spill over into that parish, but I have found in general Shoreditch did have more of an English character than Spitalfields. Personally I'd think the Spencers if living on Holywell lane were more likely native English Weavers. At least three of my own native English weaving families lived on that same street at that time, none of my French who were in Spitalfields and Bethnal Green, only a few straying into Shoreditch much later in early 1800's.
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Just noticed, may be insignificant, but the Mary Ann Spencer I researched her mother Elizabeth Spiers, a Silk Weaveress, was born 17 Feb 1784 on Holywell Lane, Shoreditch. She married David Spencer of Essex ,1801 at St George In East, Stepney. The Spiers were a Huguenot family, of silk manufacturers, who went from France to Coventry, then to to London.
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I see, well I am perplexed because they did live on Holywell Lane in 1806, but lived on York Street in 1804, 1809 and 1812. (baptisms of children)
Do you think there's any significance in his wife's maiden name of Beilling/Boilling? I am having trouble finding baptisms for her as well.
Interesting about Elizabeth Spiers though.
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I can't honestly say I have come across the name Beilling before in my researches on the Huguenot family.
Are you sure they are not referring to York Street, Shoreditch?
York Street, in Shoreditch, was a small street linking Cock Lane and Anchor Street. Anchor Street was actually the start of Bethnal Green, and directly below it (where the W is) is Wheeler Street part of Spitalfields, so York Street was on the very tip where Shoreditch, Spitalfields and Bethnal Green all met. Holywell Lane is directly opposite of it on the other side of Shoreditch High Street, have marked it with an arrow. Barely a 1-2 min walk away.
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd160/Riche1979/map.jpg?t=1290647958)
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Richard, you are most probably right. I just assumed it was York Street, Marylebone because of the link with St James's and it was the only one I could find. Seeing as the baptisms were at St Leonard's, it is almost certainly the York Street you have.
However, that leaves me puzzled again as to why one of his children, Charlotte, married at St James's in Piccadilly.
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Did she marry well? If the husband was in a good trade or monied that might explain it. When Eastenders were 'going up in the world' they'd often move West.
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No, not particularly. She married a silk weaver from Bethnal Green. When she died in 1846, he ended up straight in the Bethnal Green workhouse, so he wasn't very affluent.
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Hmm..I can't think why then. One of my East End Silk Weavers did marry over that way in 1774, at St Marylebone Church, because the husband had been educated as a child at the French Protestant Charity School which was located there. I assume he somehow got a fondness for the church from his school days near by. Could be something like that to explain it in your case too?
Are you 100% it is the right marriage and couple for your family? No possible alternative marriages nearer to Shoreditch?
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Well, the record was mis-transcribed with Spotts, instead of Spencer and the actual document is virtually illegible,so I'm no 100% but the dates do fit together. I think I will double check with East End churches to make sure. Perhaps you're right, it does seem very bizarre with no apparent reason.
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There is a very interesting entry in the French Hospital London records
They had an application from one Thomas Spencer in February 1906. He was a Silk Weaver, born in Bethnal Green at 11 Squirries Street on Nov 9 1832 (baptised at St Leonards Shoreditch 9 Dec 1832) to Thomas Spencer and Susannah Pashley. He claimed his right to reside in the Hospital through his mothers French Huguenot descent Pashley/Cordon. Both his mother and father were born in the East End. His father Thomas Spencer was born 1802, to Thomas and Mary Spencer, and baptised at St Leonards Shoreditch on 29 Sep 1802.
More importantly he provided both his parents marriage certificate and his paternal grandparents.
20 Feb 1798 Thomas Spencer & Mary Shelton, St. James' Westminster
2nd Jany 1832 Thomas Spencer & Susannah Pashley, St. James, Westminster
So despite both families living in Shoreditch, as silk weavers, they were trapsing over to St James in the West of the city to marry. The reason for this I am not sure, though there surely must have been one.
Is it not possible this mans father was a brother to your Charlotte?
I think this is clear evidence the Spencers though were English and not French, or he would have claimed decent from his father not his mother.
I think there is a strong case to be made that the Thomas Spencer who married Mary Shelton, 1798, is a brother of the David Spencer I researched and also originally of Essex. Not only are they living in same parish following same trade, but the petition to the French hospital also mentions the applicants own wife, an Eliza Diggins. David Spencers wife Mary Spiers, had a sister Lydia Spiers. Her son James Houghton married into the Diggins family too. (The Houghtons and Diggins were both also native English Silk Weaving families based in Shoreditch back to at least early 1700's)
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That's very interesting. Charlotte was born in 1807/8 so only a difference of 10 years or so, so definitely a possibility of being siblings. I found a lot of her siblings so will have a look. Thomas and Mary married in 1799 so there's a possbility.
What interests me more though is the Houghton connection. I have Elizabeth Houghton as marrying William Bridges at St Mathew Bethnal Green in 1757(the grandparents of William Bridges who married Charlotte Spencer) The three generations of Bridges' from William (husband of Charlotte) to his grandfather (husband of Elizabeth Houghton) were silk weavers, or listed as just weavers. I'm sure there must be a connection here.
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http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/topics.religious.huguenots.huguenots-walloons-eur/1555.1.1/mb.ashx
Hi, just found this thread, which I'm assuming is likely also you. You do have them down as probable siblings there. I'd say then that the marriage in Cripplegate is likely to be a different couple. In fact that explains why both Charlotte and her brother married at St James Westminster, their shared parents Thomas Spencer and Mary Shelton did! However why they originally chose to when they lived in Shoreditch is more of a mystery. Perhaps even further back Mary Sheltons family was originally from that parish.
The Houghton family were English silk weavers. I have traced them back to a Robert Houghton who was living in Shoreditch at least as far back as 1720. The infamous Kray brothers of Bethnal Green are decendants of theirs through their grandmother a Houghton. Also Derek Houghton who is a distant cousin of the twins and recently wrote a book on Bethnal Green.
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Wow, so it is likely that Mary Shelton is the lady I'm looking for. Do you think that my Elizabeth Houghton is related to the Houghtons you mentioned? I think in Silk Weaving family in Bethnal Green, there can only be so many Houghtons. So that would mean I'm distantly related to the Kray Twins...fantastic...
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Oh and yes, that thread was me.
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I have an Elizabeth Houghton born 1734 Bethnal Green to Robert Houghton and Elizabeth Davies. Likely to be the one who married William Bridges 1757 at St Matthews. I made a mistake in previous posts the Houghtons were indeed originally settled in Bethnal Green, they moved into Shoreditch around 1780, then back into Bethnal green around 1830. Her brother Robert Houghton 1736, had a son Joseph Houghton 1772, and he married Lydia Spiers, S in Law of David Spencer. Their Eldest son JosephHoughton 1801 married his 1st cousin Mary Ann Spencer, and is the ancestor of the author Derek. Their younger son James Houghton 1811 (a twin) maried Mary Diggins, and is the ancestor of the Kray Twins.
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I think the Elizabeth Houghton you have born in 1734 is the same as I have. Well, I can't say I'm overwhelmed with joy to know I'm related, albeit very distantly, to the Kray Twins. So, is it quite safe to say that none of those I thought are of Huguenot descent?
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Very distantly so. Mind you by all accounts the Houghtons were the better side of their blood, their great grandfather Thomas Houghton, was a very respectable factory manager, who felt his daughter had married beneath herself with the twins grandfather and wouldn't have his son in law in the house...made him sleep in the stables with the horses!
I would say fairly safe to say the Spencers were not Huguenot no. Likewise the Houghtons, though they married into Huguenot families (Robert Houghtons wife Elizabeth Davies was Briefly married to a Frenchman, Bauzine before being widowed).
As I said though, I would not rule out the stories you have heard of Huguenot links for the Simons. There certainly were Huguenot silk weaving Simons in the East End.
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What a colourful character!
Yes, I think the Simons will be my next lot to investigate. Thank you so much for all your help Richard, and others on this thread. You've helped me immeasurably.
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Hi Richard
We are following the Spiers. We agree they are Huguenots, though it took a long time before we discovered this (in the Huguenot Library). We were just wondering how you know this and whether you have any details of the family's journey from France (via Jersey we think) to Coventry. Another branch we believe went to Oxford.
Any hints would be much appreciated.
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Hello Nick
My main source for identifying them as Huguenots is the 1916 French Hospital Record of Sarah Ann Bartlett, which makes the following statement:
"Although we have no legal proof of our Huguenot descent it is a fact...I may
say that at the revocation of the Edict of Nantes the Spiers fled to Jersey & practiced silk
weaving there; later went to Coventry & next came to Spitalfields, that is why they are not
on the original Register of thé Huguenots who fled to London"
I imagine this is probably the same document you viewed at the Huguenot Library so probably wont help much!
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Hi Ryan and Richard, I realise it's a long time since you posted but if you see this, it might be of interest to know that I am related to the Thomas Spencer and Susanna Pashley mentioned in Richarde's message. Susannah was the sister of Mary Ann Pashley (1807 - 1868) who was my 3 x great grandmother. Susannah and Mary Ann's mother was Susannah Marguerite Cordon, grandaughter of Jean Cordon, Huguenot, from Mouchamps in Poitou. Interestingly for Richarde, I am also descended from his Bachelier and Deverdun ancestors from Meaux in Picardy. Best regards, Pamela