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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: corisande on Sunday 21 November 10 11:12 GMT (UK)
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Geoffrey Baggallay was shot at 119 Lower Baggot St, on Bloody Sunday, 21 November 1920
I am trying to get a listing of the IRA men who carried out the raid. The odd thing is that it is well known that Sean Lemass (the future politician) was one of them, but very little has been published about that morning at 119 Lower Baggot Street
As far as I can see the group probably included
- Sean Lemass, fired a gun
- Jimmy Brennan, fired a gun
- Matty MacDonald, fired a gun
- Jack Keating the man with the hammer
- Jack Foley
Seems odd in a way that more has not been written on this event given that Lemass was involved.
Can anyone help with further information on events at 119 Lower Baggot St that morning
For example, who was in charge and who was the Intelligence man, who were the others, is my list correct as far as it goes?
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Hi Corsande,
Here's an extract from Pat McCrea's WS413 just to confuse things further:-
QUOTE:
I was mobilized for 35 Lr Gardiner St together with the remainder of the Transport men. It was between 8 and 9 o'clock when I arrived there and received instructions from Dick McKee and Peadar Clancy. They were together in the hall. I was told what was to take place on Sunday morning, each car with two drivers was allocated a certain street or area. I was told to assist the unit that was operating at 28 Lr. Baggot St. As well as I remember, the men on that job were a couple of members of the squad - p. Griffin, Eddie Byrne and Mick Fleming. Mick Fleming was in the army later.
The British agent in Baggot St., listed for elimination was, as far as I know, Captain Baggally, who was believed to have been one of Kevin Barry's torturers. On that Sunday morning I left home about 7.30 o'clock and made my way to the dump in North Great Charles St. I met the remainder of the men there - at least some of them. We collected our guns and got out the car. We timed ourselves to be in Baggot St. about five minutes to 9 o'clock. We arrived there up to time - I think it was two or three minutes to p - and within three minutes another man, who was on the job, turned up. We parked the car a little to the rear of the house on the opposite side of the street. when our men arrived there was no delay, as arranged. Three or four men entered the house, leaving one man on each side of the building outside as a guard for the men who had actually gone into the house. They had particulars of the agent's bedroom. When the room was entered he tried to escape through the window, but before he reached the window he was put out of action. The job was completed in the space of a few minutes. We got away without incident. We left Baggot St and we came down Merrion square and Westland row. When we came into Merrion square we picked up a few men coming off the Mount St. job - one was Herbert Conroy. We arrived back at the dump without any interference from anybody. We replaced the car and dumped our guns. Headquarters that morning was at 6 North Richmond St - Byrnes - in case of casualties, and for the purpose of making our reports. I think we were about the first unit to arrive there. After a time the other units came in. Sean Russell was there. I think he was quartermaster of the Dublin Brigade at that time.
UNQUOTE
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Thanks
As you say to confuse things further. It is always "challenging" to sort out these witness statements. McCrea seems a little confused, mainly because he was driving the getaway car, so was not actually in a house.
Points I would make on his WS are
1. There were two houses where murders took place in Lower Baggot St, number 119 where Baggallay was shot, and number 92 where Newberry was shot. There was no raid on 28 Lower Baggot St (as far as I know) referred to by McCrea.
2. He is correct that Herbert Conroy was on Upper Mount Street operation.
3. I would be fairly sure that his recollection of -P. Griffin, Eddie Byrne and Mick Fleming would be correct. Trouble is I cannot link them to either of the Baggot Street operations.!
4. Capt Newberry at 92 Lower Baggot St is the British officer, whose body hung out of the window for a period of time. It would seem more likely that this is the location that McCrea is referring to.
5. However 28 Lower Baggot St in McCrea's WS is opposite 119 and he does say he parked the car behind the house opposite
So end of the day I cannot say for sure if the men he mentions - P Griffin, Eddie Byrne and Mick Flemming were involved in 92 or 119 Lower Baggot St ???
The quote is useful though in that it gives another lead in tryig to piece together the teams that hit these two addresses.
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Lemass did not want his role as a gunman known.He always said he took part in 1916 & was on top of the GPO with a shotgun & hoped he did not hurt anyone !.Lemass was also involved a lot with the north so the last thing he wanted was someone dragging up bloody sunday as the unionists would not be happy talking to an old active IRA man !
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the last thing he wanted was someone dragging up Bloody Sunday
Gary,
I realise that, but Sean Lemass has been dead for 40 years now ! And still nothing has emerged in Witness Statements or elsewhere.
We have today information in detail on what happened in most of the (successful) operations, but not on 119 Lower Baggot Street. I just wondered if any biography on Lemass was written after his death that sheds any light.
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I did see something that mentioned it in a documentary which mention Lemass, you know yourself the men who made the statements must have left his name out,its the same as John Wilson the only statement that mentions him is Jim Harpurs I have his army records now & he mentions lots of actions he took part in & gives names to verify him being there.Before you ask no mention of Bloody Sunday !, he was with the engineers ( 3 coy) at that time, just before his transfare to the ASU then the squad.
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Found this information on another site, and thought it might be of some assistance.
On the morning of 21 Nov 1920, the IRA men involved stopped outside 119 Baggot Street, Matty MacDonald shared a joke with Jack Keating about the size of the hammer he had brought to force in the door. But the hammer was not needed. MacDonald went on:
We knocked at the front door a maid came along have a letter from the Castle will you deliver this note to Captain Bagelly a one legged man (his record shows the leg amputation and oddly we know that Hardy had a leg amputated as well) . The maid pointing and in we went in. We tapped at the door, opened it and walked in. There were 3 of us. Bagelly was in bed. Lemass, Jimmy and I. I was kind of scared. ‘Captain Bagelly ?’ ‘That’s my name.’ ‘ I suppose you know what we came for. We came for you.’ He was the Judge Advocate General. ‘ I suppose you’ve come for my guns’ he said. One of us, Jimmy Brennan hid it under the bed and he reached behind for it… Slugs and a little more was our reply. ‘Get up.’ He was in pyjamas. Lemass and Jimmy and I fired 2 in the head from the 3 guns. I heard maids screaming afterwards but I was told she was alright. On the ground floor was Jack Foley. A fellow came out with a towel in pyjamas for a bath and Jack stuck him up and he was balls naked. Thinking he was a lodger but he was another British army officer and how we didn’t know about him, we hadn’t any orders about him. MacDonald took a camera and whatever papers he could find. An examination of the body found that Captain G. T. Baggally had been shot on the top of the head, through the left eye and twice in the chest
Hansard reports. When the police arrived every occupant of the house had left, and no witness was available to describe the circumstances. Thomas Whelan was charged with the murder of Capt Baggallay, along with three others - one of whom was called Boyce. A British Army officer, who occupied the room next to Baggally, identified Whelan as the man who covered him with a revolver as another man (who he identified as Boyce) shot Baggally. Both Boyce and Whelan produced evidence that they were elsewhere during the shooting. Boyce's evidence was accepted and he was acquitted along with the other two charged. Even though Whelan had five witnesses (including a priest stationed in Ringsend) who said he was at 9 o'clock mass in Ringsend church at the time of the shootings, he was still found guilty. (Whelan was a member of A Company, 3rd Battalion, Dublin Brigade, IRA.)
5 men were charged with the murder but only Thomas Whelan was found guilty and hanged.
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Found this information on another site, and thought it might be of some assistance
Afraid I wrote that rubbish myself and that is my website :)
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When you say rubbish, do you mean that its inaccurate?
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corisande,
Are you referring to: http://cairogang.com/
I thought that was pretty good stuff? I was especially interested in the discussion around the famous photo of the cairo gang and just who was actually in it.
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Yes, that is my site.
I have established now that the "Cairo Gang" photo is nothing to do with Bloody Sunday, and is in fact a photo of named people in F Company ADRIC. It is probably "posed" for the camera, and may well have been fed to the IRA to establish the credentials of a double agent who fed it to them.
Anyway the NLI tell me that they will amend their records to refer to it as that. I doubt that I can get all the errors removed from history books :( but the "Cairo Gang" never existed
I went on to look at Bloody Sunday as a whole. The myth was that the men in the photo were the men shot on Bloody Sunday, which never seemed a runner to me, but took some time to prove who they really were.
One of the untold stories of Bloody Sunday is the raids that were unsuccessful - because the target had moved or was not at home when they called. And also the ones where the wrong man was shot. These are the ones nobody wants to talk about.
Collins intelligence gathering machine was good, but certainly not perfect - the myth that is was perfect is another myth that takes time to shine a light on.
The you get an odd raid like the one where Lemass was involved in, about which little is spoken. I am not sure if this is because Lemass was involved, or because they shot the "wrong" man.
They may have hit the correct target (the man they murdered, Baggallay, was a courts martial judge, but there were a lot more than him in Dublin at that time - and no particular reason for him to be singled out). However the IRAs reason given for Bagallay's murder is his involvement in the death of Lynch some time earlier is somewhat tenuous. Baggally was not working in intelligence.
So one can take one's pick as to why little is said of this raid (the same argument is true of the murder of Fitzgerald at Earlsfort Terrace). Collins objective on Bloody Sunday was undoubtedly to hit the British Intelligence machine hard - Baggallay and Fitzgerald were "merely" British officers and not intelligence. The men murdered in the Gresham Hotel (MacCormack and Wilde) were civilians with nothing to do with intelligence, neither was Smith the landlord at Morehampton Road.
I do not have any axe to grind, but I do feel that much about this period in Irish history has been written in a way that now needs to be looked at afresh. Collins infiltration of Dublin Castle was a classic in the annals of intelligence gathering, but he did make mistakes
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corisande,
Thanks for that; that's really interesting stuff.
Have you any plans to write an article or book on the subject of the "real story" of the "Cairo Gang" and the Bloody Sunday killings?
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Have you any plans to write an article or book on the subject of the "real story" of the "Cairo Gang" and the Bloody Sunday killings?
Not when I started. Did think of it as I got into the subject, but still too much to do. :)
I did an interview with RTE a couple of weeks ago on Casements Irish brigade, another of my subjects. Don't know when it is going out yet. But when it does, should bring out of the wood work people who have family information
Same applies to Bloody Sunday shootings. There is a lot of info still to bring out. Human recollections are suspect either memory or their own spin of an event, so one needs several recollections to get near he "truth"
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Good afternoon Corisande, reference to S.Lemass taken from Dermot McEvoys introduction to the book - Bloody Sunday by James Gleeson
Quote---- Also among the assassins that morning was a quiet, dark haired twenty - three year old who would one day be Taoiseach ( prime - minister) of Ireland when President Kennedy visited in 1963, Sean Lemass, perhaps because of his close association with Eamon De Valera - who was in America when Bloody Sunday occurred - did not like to mention that he had worked for Collins on that day. In John Hogans biography, Sean Lemass: The Enigmatic Patriot, when Lemass is asked why he wont speak about his participation on Bloody Sunday, the Taoiseach succinctly replies, - " Firing squads don't have reunions " Un - quote
CSM
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" Firing squads don't have reunions " is about the only thing Lemass ever said about Bloody Sunday
Whether anything ever comes up under the 100 year rule or whatever on secrecy, we will have to wait and see