RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: cavegirl on Saturday 13 November 10 17:55 GMT (UK)
-
Hello everyone
I am posting on behalf of a dear friend of mine who needs some help with her Scottish ancestry and I am struggling to help her!
My friend's Great Grandmother was called Jane Lamond Copland born 1860, daughter of John Copland and Mary Davidson.
She went into service at a young age and on the 1881 census she is shown as a kitchen maid at Crosscanonby, Cumberland. She gave birth to an illegitimate daughter in 1887 in Peterculter, Aberdeenshire called Christina. Jane was the servant of the man who fathered the child and my friend believes Jane married him in secret - but cannot find a marriage record for it and the father is not named on Christina's birth certificate. Allegedly the family found out and made them annull the marriage - but neither myself or my friend know whether that would be a realistic possibility? My friend thinks they may have had a 'Marriage by Declaration' again isn't sure though...
In 1888 Jane remarried to a John Milne and they had a son John - they are shown living together on the 1901 Scottish census, with Christina named as Cissie Milne.
Any help or opinions would be gratefully received by both of us.
Thank you for taking the time to read
Best wishes
cavegirl
x
-
Hi Cavegirl
Have you been able to find Christina in the 1891 census to see where she was? This looks like Jane and husband John Milne in 1891:
John Milne 28, stonecutter, b. Woodside, Aberdeen Sh
Jane Milne 29, b. Aberdeen
John W Milne 1 b. Woodside, Aberdeen Sh
Address: 50 Barron St, Woodside, Aberdeen Old Marchar
Why does your friend think there was a marriage of any kind? Dates seem tight!
Monica :)
-
Hi Monica
I know - the dates do seem a bit tight don't they? The child's birth certificate states her as illegitimate and born in 1887. But my friend seems convinced there was a marriage at some point. My friend has had no luck finding her on any census other than the 1901...
All she has to go off is that her Grandmother told her they were married and it was anulled - because his family found out and didn't want him to be associated with a servant girl (but it's all hearsay I guess isn't it?)
My friend mentioned marriage of declaration and wondered if that might have happened, but isn't sure. I don't know whether that's a possibility.
Would there be Bastardy Bonds one could look for to see if that shed any light?
Thank you for your swift reply - very much appreciated
x
-
Was this all in Cumberland? Not sure of what records would be available there :-\ Might be worth asking the question on the Cumberland board here on RC.
I've tried looking for Christina in 1891 but no joy so far. Certainly mother and husband John show in 1891, with newborn John.
What was the name of the reputed father? Maybe she is down in England for 1891?
Monica
-
Thank you again for your kind reply!
Well, now - I spoke to my friend again last night - she said Christina was baptised as Christina Lennard Copland - she says no-one else in the family has the name Lennard so is wondering if that is after her real father? Other than that she has no idea what he may have been called only that Jane was reputed to have been whoever the father was' servant! But I might be onto something with the Lennard...
Thanks for your help thus far - very much appreciated x
-
...Don't suppose any reputed father's name was used in either Christina's marriage or death entries, or I am sure your friend would have picked this up. Was the middle name Leonard (and variants) ever used for the children of Christina?
I've gone up and down the 1891 census transcript, and nothing at all for her which is a pity.
Monica
-
Hello again!
My friend says the Lennard is used on the birth certificate - but nowhere else...although I'm going to ask her to double check again just to be sure!
I've been searching the 1891 census in Cumberland but as yet no joy, and I wish to thank you for taking the time and trouble for also searching the census too.
It's a tangled web alright...
Thank you for your time and care thus far
x
-
Just one thing to consider.....
I don't think Jane's parents, John Copland and Mary Davidson were married going by the wording on the registration of their children's births on IGI:
1. JANE LAMOND COPLAND Birth: 20 JUN 1860 Old Machar, Aberdeen
2. SUSAN COPLAND OR DAVIDSON Birth: 10 APR 1865 Forgue, Aberdeen
3. CHRISTINA HOGG COPLAND OR DAVIDSON Birth: 04 MAR 1867 Inverurie, Aberdeen
4. ROBERT COPLAND OR DAVIDSON Birth: 15 AUG 1869 Inverurie, Aberdeen
Not sure how legible the birth registration image for Christina is from SP. Is there any possibility that it reads a variant of Lamond for her middle name like her mother Jane (to save time on lots of searches for a potential father with a surname of Leonard).
What was the address for Christina's birth in Peterculter? We might get some clues from the 1891 census at that address.
Monica
-
Hi, out of curiosity I looked up the birth certificate. Tha address given was St.Mary's Place,Peterculter. Jane's occupation was a papermill worker. Perhaps Christina's father worked at the mill rather than being her boss? I found only 1 Leonard in that parish in 1881 census. He was John, born 1859 in Peterculter, & was an ag.lab. Obviously there's no proof who Christina's father was but I thought it worth mentioning. Perhaps Christina was living with a relative in 1891 (maternal or paternal) or was fostered out?
-
That's an promising find for a John Leonard flst :)
Can't easily see him in 1891 but in 1901 he shows in Peterculter, everyone down as born there:
John Leonard 42, Canting (?spl) Contractor
Dorothy Leonard 35, wife
James Leonard 4
Dorothy Leonard 1
Address: Brighton Place, West Peterculter
Re Christina, I've tried all sorts of combinations for 1891 so far on the transcript but no joy so far :-\
Monica
-
I should have said where I found John Leonard in 1881. He was living with his aunt & uncle, Alex.& Helen Dann, at Millbank Cottage, Peterculter. I too cannot find him in 1891!
flst
-
Success at last. I should've used scotlandspeople to begin with.
1891 census.
Mary Davidson (pauper) is living at 2 Barron Street, Woodside, Old Machar, Aberdeen with 2 granddaughters;
Christina Leonard,5 Born Kincardineshire, Peterculter. (I 'd been searching Aberdeenshire)
Maggie J.Copland, 2 months, born Old Machar.
Also found 1891
John Leonard, single, a carter, living at Leadside Cottage, Peterculter.
Perhaps the next step would be to search the poor relief records for Mary Davidson as the grandchildren will be mentioned as dependants if residing with her at the time of application.
flst
-
;D ~Brilliant result flst! We become too reliant on the transcriptions rather than the original entries on SP sometimes.
Just for curiousity now after all your hard work, I'm going to see how the the transcript has drummed this entry up that you have found....
Monica
-
Not a hope!
Even with all the extra info you have found flst to search by on the 1891 census, nothing shows for Mary and granddaughters on the transcript even when searching purely by address :-\
From what you have found, Maggie Copland, is this another daughter for Jane and John Leonard. You would think so from the name perhaps.
Cavegirl, might be worth your friend looking at the birth entry for Maggie Copland (indexed as Maggie) on Scotlands People to see whether Jane is mother. Her birth entry shows in Old Marchar, Maggie Copland 1891.
Monica
PS: Lost again am I trying to see anything on Maggie in 1901....arghhhh!
-
Monica, you found John & Jane Milne with their 1 year old son living in the same street in 1891 as Mary Davidson. This 2 month old Maggie must be a niece of Jane's surely?
flst
-
I'm losing the plot :P
Monica
-
Nae wonder, I ken fit you mean!
flst
-
I'm losing the plot :P Monica
You can do this Monica.
One of Mary Craig's, who married George Hall daughters married into the Copland family in Aberdeen area. Are they the same family as Moses Copland, if so I can ask Yvonne on Ancestry, see if she knows anything. Mary and Georges daughter married Moses.? I will have a look and see which one.
marcie
-
Monica,
How old is Mary? Mary Agnes Hall married a Moses Copland but she was born abt 1857 so is too early. They had son who was Moses, plus others. The family moved to california USA and then Florida.
If this is of no help, what I was thinking was that go a little further back and work forward. If anyone wishes to take a look at the information I have, which may or may not help, they can contact me and I can have a word with Yvonne whose family connections these are more than my own.
marcie