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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: alison1970 on Thursday 11 November 10 13:24 GMT (UK)
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HI please can someone with more military knowledge than me help me with the history of the hussars.
i am slightly confused with there where abouts.
My husbands great great grandfather was serving with the Hussars , and i am presuming that in 1897 they were stationed in india, as while there they had a son born 1897, on his birth certificate it states father william oakley rank 19th hussars reg no 3182.
Then on the 1901 census, Williams wife Mary and thier son were living back in uk at the canterbury barracks kent.
William can then be found on another census at canterbury barracks but residing seperate from mary. (looks like all the 19th hussars were living together on this census all men)
So my questions are, would William of been in india in 1897, or possible in africa (as i thought thats where the hussars were in 1897) if so was it normal for wifes and families to stay in india and not return to uk.
Would it be possible that when the whole family returned to uk which i am presuming must of been 1900/1901 going by the census info, they would of gone to reside at different quarters on the same barracks.
Sorry but my history is not that good. I have googled and looked on many advised sites, but find i get lost with it all.
Where did the hussars go after 1901?
I cannot find any of them on the 1911 census, but there is a death for a willian oakley in 1903 canterbury. (not sure if this is my william i will have to get the certificate)
If it was his death it could explain why i can't find mary and albert on 1911 census if she remarried.
He does not appear on any of the boer war medal records that i can see. Was not every soldier in the boer war issued a medal?
Regards
Alison x
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You haven't given any details of Mary apart from her name
1901 shows her b India 1876 and she was Mary Ann
Albert was Albert Edward
Re: 1903 death - the age of that William was 32 - when was your William born?
Have you checked the 1901 for any other possible candidates for that death
The 1911 free index has several Albert Edward or Albert E entries who were b India 1897 +- 1yr but none were surname Oakley or living in Kent
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So my questions are, would William of been in india in 1897, or possible in africa (as i thought thats where the hussars were in 1897)....
19th Hussars were in India from 1891-99, based in Secunderabad from 1896-99
Where did the hussars go after 1901?
1899-1903 South Africa (Boer War)
1903-08 Curragh, Ireland
1908-10 Norwich
1910-12 Aldershot
1912-14 Hounslow
Was not every soldier in the boer war issued a medal?
Yes they were. And I agree, I can't see William on the medal roll.
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Hi Alison
The 19th Hussars were in India (with approved wives and children) until September 1899. They had been there since the end of 1891.
The 19th Hussars were sent with the expectation of war starting, so the families would have been sent back to England, probably via the Suez canal.. As William Oakley is in the UK in 1901 and is not listed on the Boer War medal roll he would have travelled back with the families. Soldiers only had to step onshore in order to receive the medal. They would have returned to the depot in Canterbury. You will have to get that death certificate to be certain. If he died while still serving his papers would have been destroyed 20 years later.
I cannot explain the separate arrangements. Normally married men lived with their families in married quarters. However the 19th Hussars alone would have had 40-50 additional families to house – not to mention the same with other cavalry units sent to South Africa from India, so they probably ran out of space.
Here are some of the men with nearby numbers. As you can see most were discharged even before the end of the war. Someone with Findmypast may be able to tell you when some of the men enlisted.
Talbot W.G. 3169 Discharged, 28/10/01
Saggers A.G. 3170 Discharged, 26/10/01
Adams J. 3172 Discharged
Ridgeway F. 3177 Discharged, 26/10/01
Makings J. 3178 Discharged, 22/10/01
Rivett G. 3179 Discharged, 26/10/01
Ford W. 3183
Fowler G. 3184 Discharged, 28/10/01
Ramsay J. 3185
Jackson W. 3187
Barnes A. 3200 Discharged, 31/10/01
Parker A. 3205 Discharged, 28/10/01
Holdsworth C. 3212
Larrard F. 3216 Discharged, 21/10/01
Cheetam J. 3217 Discharged, 30/11/01
Thompson J. 3218 Discharged, 07/12/01
Heard W.J.T. 3219 Discharged, 13/12/01
Williams J.F. 3220 Discharged, 20/11/02
Hall C. 3224 Discharged, 09/12/01
Rushton W. 3225 Discharged, 09/12/01
Southgate G. 3230 Discharged, 15/11/01
Ken
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Thanks for all your help.
Carol: I will try to get the death cert for the William oakley who died 1903 aged 32 as my william was born in 1871 so dates would tie in.
His wife was Mary anne William? born in india 1879. This was information I got from thier marriage certificate.
Thier son Albert was born 1897 succunderbad india.
It was on n his birth certificate that William was listed as being in the 19th hussars rank no 3182.
I can find nothing for this number.
Ken and Neil Thank you so much for the information.
I have a photo of the family and Mary looks indian..........
putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 20 lol I wonder if that was my williams death in 1903 if Mary would of took herself and Albert to india for any reason.
I can find passenger records of a mary oakley travelling to india with a child and infant in 1906? so that would explain not finding them on the 1911 census.
But Albert did end up residing in the uk...... he himself was a military man and died in exeter devon 1962.
Thanks for all your help ;0)
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I can only find one William Oakley on the Incoming Passenger lists on Ancestry with his birthyear but I don't think it's him
1945 aged 48 - travelling alone from the USA occ inspector and shown as en-route to Eire
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I was interested in the subject matter discussed, having recently discovered that my maternal g.father served in the 19th Hussars.
If possible, do visit the National Archives and obtain a copy of William's Service Record. It's a fascinating experience, very rewarding and was not as complicated as I first thought.
You will be presented with a box of records (after a wait) and eventually come across the relevant name and documents which give the initial registration personal information, service record, dates and details of discharge, including distinctions and medals.
Does anyone have photos of the 19th Hussars between 1890 and 1902? I'm particularly interested in those taken in India/Secunderabad and S.Africa.
I believe my g.father was a groom - he seems to have remained a private but possibly these two facts helped him survive Ladysmith.
Danila.
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Sorry to butt in, but the topic is about the 19th Hussars.
My g.uncle joined the 19th Hussars on 1.1.1902, his no. was 5372. He served until 1909 when he was discharged but stayed on Army Reserve. In 1913 when he was again back with the Hussars, his no. had changed to 23176.
My grandfather (brother of above) joined 19th Hussars on 29 May 1901, his no. was 5301. He was discharged, unfit to serve in 1906.
I know both my grandfather and his brother were in Curragh Ireland and then in S.Africa from 1903-1904. According to Neil1821, the Hussars were only in S.Africa from 1899-1903, so why did my two ancestors go out in 1903 for a year?
Their younger brother joined the 19th Hussars on 19 October 1906 and died on 24 November 1917 in Cambrai, France. I have no idea where he was during his service, as his attestation papers are amongst the missing ones. At least from Neil1821 I now know the whereabouts of the regiment from 1906-1911 - and I did find my g.uncle on the 1911 census in Aldershot. He was in the 1st cavalry brigade, 19th Hussars but I have no idea what his no. was.
Does anyone know where the 19th Hussars were from 1911 to end of November 1917?
Lizzie
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Hi Lizzie
The youngest brother was 46530 Private George Reuben Benson - http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=1751179
How do you know when he enlisted and was killed, but you do not know his numbers? He would have had a four digit number when he enlisted in 1906. Before WW1 each cavalry regiment had their own numbering sequence. During WW1 the cavalry reorganized into separate Corps of Hussars, Lancers and Dragoons. Recruits were allocated a 5-digit number and then allocated to a regiment within the corps. A cavalry expert on a site such as the Great War Forum may be able to tell you when 23176 was allocated.
The medal card for Thomas H Benson has him as being in the 11th Hussars during WW1. You need to obtain his card – from Ancestry or the National Archive’s website. If he received the 1914 or 1914-15 Star his card will tell you when he went overseas. The cavalry regiments comprised four squadrons each. One stayed at home as the depot at home, while three went overseas. These were often divided between infantry divisions to act as divisional cavalry. If you can discover when he went overseas you may be able to tell which division he was in.
Men were only discharged after their time in the Army Reserve. There could also a problem with Thomas’ dates. He should have been discharged on 31.12.1913 assuming he did not extend his service in the AR. If his record has not survived you will not know if he remained a reservist, or was discharged, and then re-enlisted for WW1.
The 19th Hussars moved to Hounslow in 1912. By August 1914 the depot was in Bristol, while the three service squadrons were still in Hounslow.
Ken
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Hi Ken
Sorry to confuse everyone, including myself, I had completely forgotten that I'd got his reg.no from CWGC records. I know when George Reuben enlisted, as he was put into an orphanage in Hull when his elder brother enlisted on 1 January 1902, and I have what bit of information there is from the orphanage which shows that on 19 December 1908 he left the orphanage and joined the army. Of course, although it didn't click - senility coming on quite fast I think - I knew it was the 19th Hussars from the info on CWGC and also the fact that he is shown on the 1911 census as being with that regiment.
I've got the attestation papers for Thomas Benson and Walter Benson, a Rootschatter who happened to be at Kew, decided of her own accord to see if she could find them, which she did and then sent them to me.
Thomas's papers show that originally his no. was 5372 in 1902 until his discharge to Army Reserve/Special Reservist. When he became part of the regular army on 3.9.1914 he was given the no. 23176. His records show he was in 19th Hussars 1902-1913, then 14th Res ? Regt (that has been crossed through which is why I can't read the abbreviation between Res and Regt) and changed to 11th Hussars 'B' squad. His medal card shows Victory and British. I know he married a widow with 2 children during the war and was discharged in 1919 and went to live with her and her children in London. I've been in touch with a distant ancestor of the widow who says he was remembered as a very loving husband and stepfather.
Walter, my grandfather, never served in WWI and got himself out of the army in 1906 by pulling a sickie - although that is not the army term which I have forgotten, yet again. He ended up in an Asylum for 6 weeks and within a year was married and starting a family - not so ill after all. Hull Archives have looked at the asylum records and said there is absolutely nothing written about him, apart from the date of his entry and the date of his discharge 6 weeks later. The archivist made the comment that she had never seen a set of notes like it before.
However, I'm actually more interested in what happened to George Reuben. Aged 8 he is put in an orphanage as, presumably his eldest brother who was looking after him joined up and his sisters didn't, or couldn't care for him. He was there until age 14 when he left and joined the army, I assume 19th Hussars as that was who he was with in 1911 and on his death in 1917. I would love to know where the 19th Hussars were between 1911 and 1917, more specifically during WWI. His medal card shows Victory and British medal. There is also another medal card, same name, same regiment, but with a different regt.no - 6356, rather than 46530 which has 14 star awarded on 17.8.14. Whether this is also George Reuben I don't know, but it could be if 6356 was the original no. given to him in 1906. Along with George Reuben's medal card, there is another card headed "Correspondence" which has handwritten on it:
"6 i/c Cav.Recs requests auth. re disposal of meds dy 6122"- can't type that quite right, but it is 1 over 22 written as you'd write a fraction. I have no idea what that message means or when it was written.
All that is left of George is his name on Panel 1 of the Louverval Military Cemetery, France which I find very sad.
Whilst I was growing up (my grandfather was killed in a road accident in 1926 when my father was still a boy), all I was told was that my grandfather was an orphan with no relatives and it was not until I started researching the family tree that I found he had 5 siblings. By then my father had died and the only person left alive, my dad's sister, says she knows nothing about any of the other siblings of her father, even though one of the sisters (who would have been her aunt) lived in Hull with her husband and children, fairly close to her maternal gran and her aunts on that side of the family. I have no idea why my grandfather appears to have fallen out with the rest of them.
Lizzie
Sorry, had to modify this as my typing and brain are not in sync this morning.