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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: Anydogsbody on Friday 05 November 10 00:22 GMT (UK)
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My father was taken prisoner at Tobruk and ended up in PG70 near Fermo in Italy. Can anybody come up with an exact location for that camp? I have seen a suggestion that it was at 43.14N,13.41E but that gives a location which is more than 40 Km west of where I would expect it to be. Does anything of the camp exist today?
My father thought he was near Lucca, which is several hundred kilometres away, yet his record shows him to have been at PG 70 (not PG 60 Colle Compito, Nr Lucca) and my mother remembers writing to him at PG70. Can anyone come up with a reason for that? Were prisoners given incorrect information about where they were?
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Official position given is 43:14N - 13:41E
PG 70; Fermo West of Porto St Giorgio on East Coast.
New buildings; Textile Works near Railway Line in two Sections.
Nearest Airfield Macerata.
Camp was opened 19th August 1942 and on the 15th Nov 537 Prisoners arrived from PG 60 followed the next day by 538 more.
PG60 was then closed.
Information comes from Intelligence Report of 30/6/1943. At this time 6980 POW were in the camp. Almost 100% British.
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I wonder if he was one of the 500 or so that were brought in from PG60. I had the impression though that he thought the bulk of his captivity, until Italy capitulated, was spent nearer Lucca and not just the first few months. After the capitulation he was moved to Stalag XIB at Fallingbostel.
I'm still curious about the name Monturano and the location of the camp. Monte Urano, from which I presume the camp took its name, is 40Km east by road and 20Km east across country from the Lat/Long quoted in the intelligence report. The coordinates given are of a point between San Lorenzo and Il Castelluccio
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Checked at Kew on Saturday and he doesn't seem to have made a report when Liberated.
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That's a pity but thanks for trying.
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Not a problem. I had a list of four to check but found none.
The other three were POW at Terezin concentration camp so in their case the reason for the missing report is obvious.
There were lists of some Liberation Reports that were open several years ago in WO 208.
Some of them are missing from the WO 344 Files which should contain all Reports that were made.!!
Lost, or were transfered to another department.
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Still can't make sense of that set of coordinates for the camp. I hesitate to suggest that the intelligence is wrong but the position given doesn't tally with any descriptions or pictures I have seen relating to PG70, it's far too far west and in open country.
I have pasted the link to the location below which should, if it works at all, open a page in Google Earth at the coordinates given. The green arrow indicates the spot; I think you'll see what I mean.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=43.14+13.41&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=10.602115,42.407227&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=16
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Mistakes can obviously be made but Camps were not usually that close to a Town where P.O.W. could escape and disappear.
There are some Camps such as PG 57 are given made up names. Gruppignano was just an area of open countryside and the Camp on a bend in the road.
Monturano was probably just the same.
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I'm trying to clarify this because, as far as I can gather, PG 70 Monturano was located in factory premises which may still be standing; hence the confusion. They are/were a flax or leather processing facility. I have read references to individuals visiting the former camp within the last few years and being able to locate exactly where they were housed on the site. That simply doesn't fit with the coordinates because clearly from the satellite image there's nothing there. I'm hoping to visit the former camp next year and would like to be sure that I have the location correct.
Ken de Souza wrote a book called "Escape from Ascoli" about his escape from PG70 and I have been able to locate a copy which hopefully may shed some light on things. I don't know why he chose to refer to it as Ascoli ( the website also mentions Fermo)but his son's website makes it clear that they were able to visit the camp in Monte Urano and that the buildings were still there.
If you read this you'll see what I mean:
http://www.iandesouza.de/index.php?kat=64
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I was in Italy last week and was able to pursue this thread on the ground. The first picture attached shows the official location of PG 70 according to the info above. As can be seen, there is no evidence of any substantial structure ever having been there and it is difficult to envisage that a camp of the size of PG 70 could ever have been built there. The terrain is very hilly and it would be difficult to find a suitable site which was large enough and flat enough.
The second picture shows the industrial complex just outside Fermo which I have no doubt was PG70. It fits all the descriptions and pictures that I have come across. In particular the distinctive diamond pattern of brickwork matches pictures on Ian de Souza's website and the "huts" match the style of those seen in contemporary pictures on various websites.
I would be interested in any comments on this, especially if anyone can confirm the identity of the complex. At the moment the only inference I can draw from my findings is that the official record was incorrect.
I am fairly certain but I still have to confirm absolutely that my father was in PG70, he could also have had a short spell in PG60 before its closure. I have approached the Royal Engineers archive for his service record but there is quite a delay on that.
I would appreciate if anyone could shed any light on possible alternative sources of info.
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Hi,
Just seen the photos of yours. The second one is camp 70. I was there in April of this year and the Mayor of Monty Urano arranged for my wife and I to actually go inside and look around.
If you need any photos of the inside or the area let me know and I will do my best to send them to you.
My father was also in the camp until his escape in 1943.
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Thanks for the confirmation of location. As you would have seen, the official location of the camp is some distance away. I have no explanation for that and can only assume that it is an error.
I would be interested to see your pictures but don't want to give you an email address in the public domain. I'm not sure what the rootschat rules are but I suspect that you may need more posts before we can communicate privately.
Whom did you contact to arrange a visit inside the camp? I have to be in Rome next March and might be able to get time to drive back through to Fermo for a visit.
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Hi,
I will speak with my contacts in the area to find out who to contact to see if arrangements can be made for you. I will of course let you know the outcome.
Who was it that was a POW in PG 70 ?
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It was my father. He was taken prisoner in North Africa at Tobruk. After PG70 he was a prisoner at Stallag XIB, Fallingbostel.
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My uncle was in PG70. He too was captured at Tobruk. He was an artist and produced a number of watercolours painted in the camp, as well as sketches and cartoons. Some of these clearly show the diamond pattern of brickwork which can be recognised in the photos on de Souza's website, as well as the general appearance of the buildings and the parabola-shaped arch over the entrance. He also did the artwork for the camp newspaper, the "70 Times". I wonder if anyone has any records or recollections of PG70 in 1942 and 1943 that they would like to share.
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What a fascinating record to have. I would imagine that NEXPOWA(National Ex-Prisoners of War Association) would love to see them if you were willing to make them available for publication.
I don't know how many pictures you have or their size but if they could be scanned I would be interested to see them. If you don't want them in the public domain they could be sent by personal message or email.
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I have been struggling a bit trying to attach a couple of my uncle's pictures. I had thought that it would be as simple as with an email. Have reduced them using Irfanview and will now try again.
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Seems to have worked that time!
The sketch seems to have been drawn from outside the main entrance and shows the name of the camp and the big parabolic arch over the gateway, also the characteristic diamond pattern on the brickwork. The water tower, inside the camp, appears to be still under construction as it has the scaffolding still up.
The painting, done from inside the camp, shows some of the buildings and part of the hillside, dotted with trees.
That brings me up to 3 postings, so I can now use the PM system, I believe.
Cheers, Forbes
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What superb work and a tremendous record of the camp. His views certainly put beyond doubt the identity of the buildings in my photographs.
How did he get his materials?
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Not shown in my general shot of the camp but here is the parabolic archway at the gate as it is today. Looks very much unchanged since your uncle's day
Richard
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That is an excellent photo of the arch, and how extraordinary that it should be from almost exactly the same viewpoint as my uncle's sketch of it, done 69 years ago.
When you were there, could you tell if the premises were used for anything, or just left empty? Did you manage to go inside?
Forbes
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No, we didn't manage to get inside and there didn't appear to be any activity at all on the site. I can't be certain what it is used for now but my impression was that it is perhaps used for warehousing.
The style of the architecture is very distinctive and I'm amazed that so little appears to have changed.
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Well, here's an interesting situation.
I've just received my father's army service record. It clearly shows his posting to N. Africa and his subsequent capture by the Italians at Tobruk. However, POW camp details are a bit scant and the only reference I can see is to PG 60 at Colle Compito, near Lucca.
The reference reads:
Under Part II order; 2/234/42 Cas.
and under Postings; Camp P.G. 60 P.M. 3200 (or could be 5200) Italy D.N.S.
Can anyone help with these numbers and abbreviations
My understanding was that PG 60 was closed in late '42, can anyone expand on that? Did PG 60 close completely?
Unfortunately the info received doesn't really help in pinning him down to PG 70.
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I read an item, in Italian so much of it was unintelligible to me, which seemed to suggest that there was a concentration camp housing the usual groups of prisoners, Jews, political activists etc. at Colle Compito, Cappanori, Nr Lucca. Can that be confirmed?
I am assuming that this was the former PG60 but can't be certain. I was able to glean that conditions in the area seem to have been very bad with marshy land, mosquitoes etc. Was this the reason its use as discontinued as a POW camp?
I have been to Colle Compito and it's in a beautiful location which is hard to equate to older descriptions. Perhaps the area has been drained and brought in to use for arable farming.
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PG 60 was in the Postal area PM 320O.
Unfortunately the Intelligence that gave the Camp Position didn't have the benefit of G.P.S. which has made us all critical of Positions given in 1943.
Well, here's an interesting situation.
I've just received my father's army service record. It clearly shows his posting to N. Africa and his subsequent capture by the Italians at Tobruk. However, POW camp details are a bit scant and the only reference I can see is to PG 60 at Colle Compito, near Lucca.
The reference reads:
Under Part II order; 2/234/42 Cas.
and under Postings; Camp P.G. 60 P.M. 3200 (or could be 5200) Italy D.N.S.
Can anyone help with these numbers and abbreviations
My understanding was that PG 60 was closed in late '42, can anyone expand on that? Did PG 60 close completely?
Unfortunately the info received doesn't really help in pinning him down to PG 70.
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Anydogsbody's picture of PG70 "today" shows it's largely unchanged since my visit (with my parents, during a holiday in Rimini) in July, 1974. It was a leather factory at that time and there was a bar across the arch (as in the sketch) with the name "S.A.CO.MAR". The pic's are on my flickr page (mwe152).
My dad was captured on Oct 28th, 1942 in North Africa & taken on the route described (in the hold of the ship & on to Capua). He was in the camp with a man called Bob Haynes (originally from Alperton & lives in Ruislip), who he kept in touch with.
The name Monturano is a new one on me. Dad always called it Fermo or Porto San Giorgio. It was 100 miles/160km down the Autostrada from Rimini to P.S. Giorgio, we then headed inland towards (or through?) Fermo. Dad had to ask various locals in order to find the place! This and the fact I can't find it on Google Earth means it was a pretty goood place for a PoW camp, as few would fancy escaping and no-one would be able to do a rescue!
Just had a quick scoot around online and there is a town called MONTE URANO (not Monturano) 40km north of Fermo. "Monturano" is probably a word of mouth, unwritten corruption of Monte Urano?
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Excellent pictures and further confirmation of the identity of the camp.
The issues of name and location have been discussed further back in this thread but the camp was definitely called Monturano and bears no relation to the town, Monte Urano. Neither is it at the official location recorded at Kew, just to confuse matters further!!
Just as a long shot does your dad recall encountering a Royal Engineers sergeant, Leonard (Len) Cliff who was captured at Tobruk?
I know dad was at PG60(I've got his military record) which closed with the occupants being transferred, probably to Monturano, but I can't be absolutely certain because there is no mention of it in his record.
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Hi
I have attached the citation for my Father's MM which refers to to Camp70 and then goes on to refer to his actions in Italy for which he was awarded the medal. There are a number of dates and other facts which you may find of interest.
Whilst he said he would take my mother to Italy they never went abroad before he died in 1969. He never really talked about his time in Italy more about selling lemonaide to other troops in Palestine before the war!!
I have thought about trying to find out more either here or in Italy but it a long time ago. However if anyone has any ideas I would be very gratefull
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The description of the exit from PG70 fits better with what my father recalled than some other accounts. He used to talk about getting out of the camp and hiding in a maize field pending the arrival of the allied troops from the south. As a stratagem it didn't work too well because he spent he rest of the war at Stalag 11B, Fallingbostel!!!
Your father deserved his MM, what a great story. I'm always fascinated by the initiative and resourcefulness of folks when the chips are down.
Incidentally, the citation mentions escape from rail trucks in transit to Germany. Some certainly tried that but were shot for their trouble so, according to my father, that was regarded by most as something of a disincentive to escape.
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I am glad you found this of interest. As I said my Father never really talk about it and when I downloaded the citation a couple of years ago I was amazed what he had done. I think it is partly that he had a very bad accident in 1955 where he lost one leg, had plates in the other and had over 150 stitches in his body and was very lucky to survive. This must have changed him as that the medal citation does not fit in the man I remember. After he died my mother could not find the medal and we think he must have taken it to work to show someone and lost it.
I am framing the citation and hanging it with our family trees. Apart from that I think I leave it there as service records appear to be £30 and I not sure what else it will give me.
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When I first started this thread I did not know where PG70 was but now, thanks very largely to the efforts of contributors on Rootschat, I not only know where it is but have been there and photographed it.
However, although I had many reasons to believe that my father had been in PG70 I struggled to find the last piece of evidence that would clinch it. That was until last week.
My father's sister, aged 99, died and amongst her personal papers we came across a picture of my father and, written on the back, his address in Italy.......P.G. 70, 2nd compound together with other postal details. So, there is now no real doubt where he was.
It's good to have brought the quest to a successful conclusion. I now need to discover a plan of the camp and see if I can discover where Compound 2 was
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I to have been trying to locate PG70 because I have in my possession an embroidered white handkerchief that was created by someone in the PG70 camp. My father was the owner of the handkerchief and inscribed on it was the names of the people who were prisoners of war from the 68th HAA Regiment, Royal Corps of Signals, who where captured at Tobruk in June 1942. My father, after the capture of the Italians, was moved to Stalag1VB, I will also be looking into that camp also.
I am in touch with the Royal Corps of Signals Museum for information.
I will send you, a copy of the handkerchief for you to view, when I scan in the image.
Also, I am researching other avenues re PG70 and Stalag1VB.
Hope this is of interest to you.
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Yes, I would be interested to see that. I hope you found the rest of the thread of interest and you now know the location of PG70.
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Apology for the delay in sending you the image of handkerchief, I can only compress the image to 650KB, over the limit of the site, any suggestions I have a Mac.
Regards,
Frank
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You could send it by email but I don't want to put an email address in the open otherwise I'll get spammed to death. I'll try and send you a PM with an email address but I don't know whether we'll get away with that until you've got a few more posts. Hopefully you can receive a PM and respond even though you won't be able to initiate PMs yet.
However, that doesn't get the image where everyone can see it. I don't know what image editing software you have. I have the full version of Photoshop on my Mac and in that you can save an image at a higher level of compression by clicking "Save As" then following the instructions. Select JPEG as the format and then when prompted choose your compression level to produce the relevant file size. You can download free trial versions of Photoshop Elements for Mac which I think will function in exactly the same way
Also, I don't know the resolution of your original scan. If your scanner is set to a higher scan resolution than , say, 72ppi then you will produce an image with an unnecessarily large file size with a resolution which can't be displayed on an LCD screen.It may help if you reduce the PPI setting of your scanner.
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Hi Frank, Welcome to Rootschat
You will need to have a total of 3 posts in order to send or receive Private Messages - if you post a reply to this then Anydogsbody will be able to PM you >:(
Milly
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I now have managed to reduce the scanned image file, please find attached a photograph of the handkerchief inscriptions of camp PG 70.
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I now have managed to reduce the scanned image file, please find attached a photograph of the handkerchief inscriptions of camp PG 70.
I see listed just over the numbers 70 W.A. Freeman who was 2350450 Dvr William Alfred FREEMAN. Royal Signals. Attached to 68 H.A.A.
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I attach a press cutting from the Newcastle & Journal Ltd, newspaper, date unknown, regarding the prisoner of war who spent part od WW2 at the PG 70 camp, does anyone recognise anyone?
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Just a few Escapers from PG 70
Nov 13th 1943 "Hugo" plus another from an IS9 (A Force) Escape team Commandeered the Fishing Schooner "Maria" at St Benedetto and sailed to Termoli with 16 Escapers + 7 Italians.
Sgt C D Maclaren 256991 Royal Signals.
Sgt J A Harvey 833419 Royal Artillery
Sgt S Scholes 6471852 2nd Para Btn
These were the only three from in this group who had escaped from PG 70.
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I've just had another failed attempt to find PG70 on Google Earth (not looked for it for a while though). However, I did find an interesting Italian website http://www.coninfacciaunpodisole.it to read and see more click the small box marked "Leggi tutto" beneath the picture of PG70, which those following this thread will recognise. Sacomar seem to have continued as a leather business, but I think they may no longer be at the former camp, but in Fermo itself. From what I've grasped from reading articles on Sacomar in Italian, they may have recently gone bust (2010).
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Further to what I just posted, clicking on the photo of the camp just enlarges the photo, click the box beneath (Leggi tutto...) for more details. The author has credited me for the photo, so I'll withdraw my comment about him using other people's photo's!
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If you want to see PG70 in Google Maps put this address in the search line:
3 Contrada Girola Valtenna, Molini di Tenna, Fermo, Italy
Should drop you right in to the centre of the camp and then you can use street view
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Excellent work, Anydogsbody. Thankyou! I can see why my father usually said this camp was near Porto San Giorgio or Fermo. I cannot ever recall him saying it was Monte Urano. I was 11 years of age when I visited this place in the summer of 1974 & can only really remember what's on the photo's we took (although I can recall PS Giorgio), but the area seems more built up than I remember it. Although to be honest, I only really recall the older houses overlooking the camp.
P.S. The address also works on Google Earth.
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Hi, i leaving near the camp 70 (monturano 43°10'02.5"N 13°40'26.1"E)
Camp is called Monturano (name of city nearby called Monte Urano), even if it is in the municipality of Fermo because, for convenience, had been erected in front of the railway station that served the city of Monteurano (now no longer exists but there is still the railway station: 43 ° 10'01 .6 "N 13 ° 40'29 .3" E). The name was written on the wall was then Monturano and from there took the name field.
the field has been transformed into a tannery industry for fifty years. Now that the company is bankrupt, the location is abandoned.
There are still two original gates of when it was used in World War II and the structure has remained almost the same.
If you need some photos of the place, just ask and I will send in digital format
if you can serve to reconstruct the history of the field, I can send it to you also scan the currency of the field, a few letters and a few old photos that I have collected over the years.
I hope I have done something pleasing
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Mamo
Thank you for the explanation of the name which has always been something of a mystery.
If you have more information and pictures that can be posted in this forum then it would be appreciated by all the contributors.
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I bumped into this blog and read that somebody is looking for Camp PG70 in Monturano (also written Monte Urano). I live near it and often go there to fly at the nearby airfield.
I am the woman who translated "Escape from Ascoli" by Ken the Souza into Italian and the daughter of the sea-captain who was in charge of the mission to rescue him and other English soldiers.
I am glad to say that right yesterday evening I was at a meeting with important people of the Fermo province who have a project for giving new life to the ex-prison camp without changing its premises.
Moreoves in May the fourth "Freedom Trail" will be held there and if interested you may contact me (I generally tell the English people who participate in it the story of the camp and the rescue missions along the coast) or E.L.M.S. (Escape Lines Memorial Society) whose President, Roger Stanton, will be glad to give you all the necessary information.
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Hello hazedays. Welcome to Rootschat. Thanks for your interesting post.
In addition to replying on the thread, we also have a personal message system (for when people want to exchange personal information, email addresses or details about living people).
You need to have made two posts in order to send or receive messages by PM. If you reply to this it will be activated and people will be able to contact you..
Regards
Milly
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Fascinated by Hazeday's reply. I have read Ken de Souza's book and have exchanged some emails with his son about the location of the camp.
I would certainly be interested in hearing more about what is being planned in May. As you will see from this thread I have visited the camp but wasn't able to gain access. I now even know which compound my father was in and it would be interesting to identify that.
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Hi,
glad to know you were fascinated by my reply but since I am Italian, would you mind explaining the abbreviations you are using to me? What does "PM" mean? (in "You need to have made two posts in order to send or receive messages by PM.")
I am willing to send you the pictures you require ASAP. Unfortunately my notebook fell down last week and my daughter, who studies electronic engineering, come down from her University town and was good enough to get 95% of the data. During the week I will check whether I still have all the pictures I had taken at the camp.
Last June I was invited by a friend from Fermo who wanted me to meet two brothers (whose father had given shelter to two British soldiers escaped from PG70) who wanted to tell me about their experience. With the elements of the story I had I started to go and research at National Archives and BWM. I have been in England twice in four months which costs me a lot of money...
Maybe some of you could tell me about the men I am looking for? Their names are Eric MOSS and John Mc HUGH. Eric, a pilot, from Whitney was captured in Lybia and transferred to PG70 where he met John, an Irishman with whom he had planned to escape.
Could any of you be of some help?
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PM stands for Personal or Private Message. It just means you can exchange messages with someone without it appearing in the public forum.
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And...To send someone a PM (private message) you click the little square to the LEFT of their user name
Milly
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Thank you!!!
I have a wonderful piece of news for all of you, but now I'm starting to coach... Will tell you tomorrow.
In the meanwhile, please, could you tell me what the names and places I can see at the bottom of your messages are? These:
McBride (Monaghan, Manchester), Derbyshire (Bollington,Cheshire), Knight (Newcastle,Staffs), Smith (Chorley, Lancs & Ireland), Tipladay (Manchester & Yorkshire) ,Steadman (Madeley,Shropshire), Steele (Manchester,Glasgow), Parkinson (Wigan, Lancashire), Lovatt, Cornes & Turner (Staffs) Stott (Oldham, Lancs). All ended up Ardwick, Manchester
Census info is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Those are the names of the surnames and places of people I am researching in my family tree. You add them in your profile and then they show automatically in your posts.
Click on your name and go to "modify profile" and down to "surname interests"
You don't have to do it. And you don't have to put in so many names or the places. It is up to you.
Milly
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Pg 70 is in Fermo. My father Ken de Souza was held there during the war before escaping. It was previously a flax warehouse thus had a weighbridge where the flax was weighed.
My dad escaped by hiding with his Co pilot who also was in the same camp under the weighbridge.
A few kilometres (ca 10 is the small town if Monte Urano). This is where my dad was hidden by the local farmers.
After the war the camp was used as a leather factory for a short time.
It is now not used.
I travelled there with my dad when he was alive.
It was used to hold almost 8000 prisoners mainly army and navy. There were very few RAF chaps there.
Although derelict I stayed there 2 years ago. That was a very strange feeling.
I was accompanied by professor Nebia who translated my father's book into Italian and 3 to 4 young ladies from the local university.
It is set in a beautiful area.
The people I'm the area are truly wonderful.
Ian de Souza
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Thank Ian for the lovely words referred to the people in this area!
I am now researching other British p.o.w.s: Leonard Holt, Daniel Hobbs, Eric Moss and John Mc Hugh.
My daughter bought the book written by Eric Moss "Solvitur ambulando" ("Saved by walking") and have just started to translate it.
Last summer I introduced the 3 children of L. Holt to Daniel Hobbs' son. We took them to a fabulous fish restaurant in San Benedetto del Tronto for dinner and it was VERY moving staying some hours together.
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Hi everyone,i live in Monte Urano(that can be write as Monturano)about 5miles from the site and i'm searching documentation about PG70 that now is on the territory of Fermo.I ordered the book of De Sousa and about one week it arrive.I can do some photo of the new state of PG70 and i'm happy if we can meet together to visit this camp
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There are some good photos on this page, on the website of the current owners: http://www.adriaticaspa.com/pagine/cantiere-sacomar.cfm
The reason it was called Monte Urano, by the way, and I don't know if anyone's mentioned it already, was that the station accross the road was Monte Urano, as it was the nearest point on the railway to that town. Fermo had its own station in the town centre at the top of the hill.
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Thanks for the link. At the moment the website won't allow me to view the pictures but I'll work on that.
I knew the reason the camp was called Monturano. It was quite surprising because the town itself is several kilometres away.
My father was in Compound 2, I have no idea whether or not that still exists and is identifiable in the modern complex
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Compound 2 undoubtedly still exists because nothing has been demolished but I imagine the numbering is different now and you'd have to find a plan done by a prisoner to identify the compounds.
Another interesting link is : http://www.oltreconceria.it/
This is the website of the committee working on regenerating the site. The project involves rental to various innovative start-ups but a museum is also planned.
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Giangiacomo, thanks for the link. There are some interesting still pictures and library footage that I haven't seen before. I was busy trying to spot my father in the video but my language skills are not up to following the dialogue. I'm familiar with the story of Ken de Souza and have communicated directly with Ian some time ago.
It would be good to hear how the redevelopment is progressing. I don't know if there are any plans of the camp still in existence to locate Compound 2.
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Hi,
Just seen the photos of yours. The second one is camp 70. I was there in April of this year and the Mayor of Monty Urano arranged for my wife and I to actually go inside and look around.
If you need any photos of the inside or the area let me know and I will do my best to send them to you.
My father was also in the camp until his escape in 1943.
I am so excited, I've just found this thread and planning to go to Italy and Germany in a few weeks and because of this thread I've got the coordinates for PG70. How can you contact the Mayor of Monte Urano? I would love to take a look inside, I will be bringing out a book so it would be amazing to look around. I have the account from my Step Grandfather that he wrote from his capture in Torbruk and the subsequent 3 years as POW, some of his time at PG70. Any help in contacting the Mayor to look inside PG70 would be enormously appreciated...
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I bumped into this blog and read that somebody is looking for Camp PG70 in Monturano (also written Monte Urano). I live near it and often go there to fly at the nearby airfield.
I am the woman who translated "Escape from Ascoli" by Ken the Souza into Italian and the daughter of the sea-captain who was in charge of the mission to rescue him and other English soldiers.
I am glad to say that right yesterday evening I was at a meeting with important people of the Fermo province who have a project for giving new life to the ex-prison camp without changing its premises.
Moreoves in May the fourth "Freedom Trail" will be held there and if interested you may contact me (I generally tell the English people who participate in it the story of the camp and the rescue missions along the coast) or E.L.M.S. (Escape Lines Memorial Society) whose President, Roger Stanton, will be glad to give you all the necessary information.
Hello, I will be visiting some time at the end of July, would be very happy to meet up and hear any information you have on PG70. My Step Grandfather was held here for a time and so excited to see the place. Is there anyway to get inside and take a look around?
I'd love to ask the Mayor, as I'm writing a book on his experience, but haven't found a way to contact him yet...
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Very similar story to my father's. I would guess that a general letter/email to the Town Council of Fermo might get the required response. Unfortunately I don't have any direct contact myself.
Delighted you found this thread useful. I knew nothing at the outset about the location of the camp but, with the help of others, I have been able to pin down the exact location,
Good luck
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Very similar story to my father's. I would guess that a general letter/email to the Town Council of Fermo might get the required response. Unfortunately I don't have any direct contact myself.
Delighted you found this thread useful. I knew nothing at the outset about the location of the camp but, with the help of others, I have been able to pin down the exact location,
Good luck
Thank you, yes a brilliant thread - been wondering for ages how to pin point the exact location, and then found this today after making the decision anyway to go to Italy last week! Will go out on the 24th July and very excited to go to the exact location.
It does sound like they followed a similar journey, and such a moving account, it has stuck with me since first reading it in 2005 and now this - I will send an email now to the Town Council!
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Glad it has been of help.
Rootschat has been an enormous help to me in locating information through other threads so it has been a pleasure to repay that by assisting others.
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Yes, very much so - I managed to go over there and randomly found the place was open and managed to have a good look around the place - really fascinating so really value having found this thread , thanks again :)
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I don't know if anyone has seen the "Youtube" video published by a person called Simon Mitchell when he visited the site, the video is called PG70.Ex Campo di Prigionia (PG 70). He walks round the site and buildings very interesting.
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Hi everyone, i wrote two articles about PG70:
- A story reconstruction with photos of the camp (old and new). https://seremailragno.com/2017/01/25/pg70-fermo/ (https://seremailragno.com/2017/01/25/pg70-fermo/)
- A historical chronology of the place (prisoner camp, reception camp, linen mill, tannery of skins, now is closed).
https://seremailragno.com/2017/01/25/cronologia-storica-pg-70/ (https://seremailragno.com/2017/01/25/cronologia-storica-pg-70/)
This articles are in italian language but you can use traducer in my site to see in english version. I live in Monte Urano about 5 km from PG70. To visit the place you have to call the caretaker and make an appointment. Say me what you think about!
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Michele
My apologies for a slow reply.
I watched your videos and enjoyed them. It was great to get a look at the camp.
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The camp is at 3 Contrada Girola Valtenna, Molini di Tenna, Monte Urano, Italy, and can be found on Google maps including photos of the old buildings. My Dad was also a POW here for a while before being transported to Stalag IVB in Germany. More details on my website at otterson.org under Robert Otterson. Good luck with your searching.
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Thank you everyone for answers. It's a pleasure help the people, i added photos, videos and location in Google Maps some years ago to help visitors.
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I have just discovered this fascinating discussion. My late father was taken a prisoner of war in 1942. He was an Ordinary Telegraphist serving in the Royal Navy on HMS Sikh. When it was blown out if the water at Tobruk in September 1942, he was taken POW by the Italians and my understanding is that he was there for about six months until he and some of his fellow POWs were exchanged for Italian POWs. Going through his papers, I found a letter from the Red Cross about his capture dated 1942, and three postcards he sent to his parents from the camp. The details on the cards allowed me to identify his camp, the compound in which he was kept (Comp. 3) and brought me to this interesting forum. My father’s memories of this time were naturally not happy, and he rarely spoke of it - although latterly I did manage to get him to make a voice recording of his memories for me. I believe food was extremely short for the prisoners and the guards. I still have the spoon dad made from wire and the lid from a food tin. I am very excited to be able to identify, via this forum, the actual location of where he spent those years. I will share the four documents here (when I have compressed them!) in case they may be of interest to the other contributors.
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Re my last post, this is the Red Cross letter informing a friend that my father had been taken PoW
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This is the first post card from my father from PG70 informing his mother of his whereabouts.
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This is the second post card my father sent his parents from PG70
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This is the last post card I have that my father sent his parents from PG70. I believe he and his comrades from HMS Sikh were exchanged for Italian PoWs on Churchill’s instruction, and returned to England.
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And finally, this from The Daily Mirror dated 25th June 1943, showing my father returning to his parents in Hatfield Broad Oak, where they were living for the duration, as their home / shop in Stepney had been destroyed by an incendiary in the Blitz in September 1941.
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I was just looking back and seeing that I started this thread almost exactly nine years ago. Knowledge then was minimal but now so much has come to light. Every story is different but there are common elements in them all.
The story you have posted will be familiar to all readers. Thanks for taking the trouble to do it.
It fascinates me that this thread has now been read more than 26000 times and, I hope, helped others to fill in some blanks about fathers' or grandfathers' wartime experiences.
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It's a brilliant and informative thread. Thank you so much for starting it. I would never have imagined I would identify the actual location, but thanks to this thread, not only can I, but there are an abundance of fascinating links, films and photographs. I am so glad to have his post cards that enabled me to locate the actual camp. My father died in 2017 aged 95. I doubt it would have given him much pleasure to see these photos but for me and my sisters and family, it is wonderful. Many thanks to everyone who has contributed here.
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My father Ken de Souza was held prisoner in PG70 in Fermo for 1 year before he escaped. He then was hidden by the local Contadini for another year untill he could be rescued.
PG70 was used for a few years after the war, but now stands derelict.
About 5-6 years ago, I went on a freedom trail and stayed at the camp for one night. (That was very strange)!
The Town hall wanted to re use the area of PG70, but many were against it due to it's history.
I was asked to help, which I was happy to do as a gesture of thanks to the italians who had helped so many.
I'm not a professional media person, but did my best to change public opinion. Fortunately it worked
The news came out on Monday 27.03.2023 that 15M has been raised and the camp will be reused. It will contain shops, small businesses, flats and a hospital.
For our relatives who escaped and were hidden by the local peasants and a terribly high risk to their own lives, I think this is a wonderful way of saying "Thank You"
8000 men were held in PG70 mainly Navy & Army and a couple of RAF.
When I stayed in the camp for one night it was full of pidgeons.
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Ian, I think we have communicated before but I've only just seen your recent post. I actually have a signed copy of your dad's book.
It fascinates me that my original post and everything that has flowed from it has now been read more than 36,000 times.
Delighted to hear the news about PG70 Monturano. I hope I'll get a chance to visit it again once it has been developed.
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I’m researching my fiances grandfather Reg Coley who we have found was a pow here and escaped 9/12/43 ( family story says he tried to escape in a boat but was recaptured) does anyone use “what3words” app to locate the exact location? I’ve put the address in from an earlier post but it brings up a rural place
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Hi Antony
Yes, the earlier location was incorrectly noted in the national records office and is a rural site. If you look further in the thread the correct address in Fermo is given. Put that into Google Maps and it will drop you right on it. Good luck
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Hi, this is the exact location of PG70 Monturano https://maps.app.goo.gl/k46ZpfQy8aMtGP4C9 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/k46ZpfQy8aMtGP4C9). I'm near and I visited this place to take some photos and reconstruct the history. Near this camp, there is also a railway station (called Monturano-Rapagnano) it was part of the Porto San Giorgio-Amandola railway and connected the sea (starting from Porto San Giorgio city) with the mountains (ending in Amandola city). Today the area is being revalued with a project that is partly destroying the existing warehouses but a small part of the structure will be dedicated to a museum in memory of the dead during WW2.
(https://www.seremailragno.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/PG70-Monturano.jpg)
Here you can find other info: https://www.facebook.com/pg70prisonercamp (https://www.facebook.com/pg70prisonercamp)
I’m researching my fiances grandfather Reg Coley who we have found was a pow here and escaped 9/12/43 ( family story says he tried to escape in a boat but was recaptured) does anyone use “what3words” app to locate the exact location? I’ve put the address in from an earlier post but it brings up a rural place
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My father was in Compound 2, don't know which building that is. Sorry to hear it's being redeveloped but that's progress. At least they're honouring its history with a museum. Thanks for your post.
When does work begin?
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Well this has been interesting!
Prompted by meeting a resident local to me in Kent UK whose mother is from Ferme I have stumbled across this conversation.
The Red Cross record says that my dad was in PG70 ( I knew he was a POW in Italy), so at least I know where it is. I can see a trip coming on. Sadly he did in 1972, when I was 12, so I had very little information about his war years and have had to piece things together myself ( Mum died when I was young as well). What doesn't seem to stack up is that he was released ( they through they were being taken to be shot) in March 1943 and returned back to the UK but some of your relatives still seems to be escaping in September 1943, when he was back at Medical School in Liverpool
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I have just discovered this fascinating discussion. My late father was taken a prisoner of war in 1942. He was an Ordinary Telegraphist serving in the Royal Navy on HMS Sikh. When it was blown out if the water at Tobruk in September 1942, he was taken POW by the Italians and my understanding is that he was there for about six months until he and some of his fellow POWs were exchanged for Italian POWs. Going through his papers, I found a letter from the Red Cross about his capture dated 1942, and three postcards he sent to his parents from the camp. The details on the cards allowed me to identify his camp, the compound in which he was kept (Comp. 3) and brought me to this interesting forum. My father’s memories of this time were naturally not happy, and he rarely spoke of it - although latterly I did manage to get him to make a voice recording of his memories for me. I believe food was extremely short for the prisoners and the guards. I still have the spoon dad made from wire and the lid from a food tin. I am very excited to be able to identify, via this forum, the actual location of where he spent those years. I will share the four documents here (when I have compressed them!) in case they may be of interest to the other contributors.
This is my father's story exactly, except he was a Coder on HMS Sikh. He swam away from Tobruk when the ship was bombed and was in the water for 6 hours but was picked up by the Italians