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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Northumberland => England => Northumberland Lookup Requests => Topic started by: MacArk on Thursday 04 November 10 19:56 GMT (UK)
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Hello...I have just found this forum and it looks like a great place for family history investigation and information...I am working on a link to my 4th great grandparents: Peter Hume (born 1779 Northumberland, died July 24, 1862 Ontario, Canada) and Catharine Howie (born 1773 Northumberland, died August 9, 1848 Ontario Canada), possibly married in 1802 at Wooler W Chapel...anyone have any leads or information for me? Thanks! Joanne
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hello joanne, there is confirmation on the family search beta site that Peter & Katherines (spelling given) children were baptised at the west chapel presbyterian, wooler:
Ann Hume 16/8/ 1803
Thomas Hume 29/7/1805
so highly likely that the marriage you give is right. it may be on the BTs but the site is down for maintainance at the moment.
Diddy
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this from Genuki for Northumberland archive services:
Wooler, West (Presbyterian) - Births/baptisms 1752-1857, 1885-1950, marriages 1895-1921 and deaths 1906-1921. (Births/baptisms 1752-1857 are included on the IGI.)
Diddy
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Hello Diddy and thank for your assistance...I do believe that these are my 4g-grandparents...I have to apologize for my lack of familiarity with the sites and searches you referred to - I have only been using ancestry.com and a few other Canadian search sites, so I googled "family search beta site" and "Northumberland archive services" and am still learning how they work but appreciate the lead and new areas for learning...I recently visited the grave site of Peter and Catherine in person up in Canada and so I am interested to trace that lineage back further if possible. I am a descendant of their daughter, Isabell. FYI: Somewhere I read that Catherine was from Newcastle upon Tyne, not too far from Wooler...also these Humes seem to vary from stating on censuses that they are English or Scottish so I am wondering if there was a border fluctuation back in that time? Thanks again, Joanne
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Hi Joanne
As I'm sure Diddy would tell you if she was still logged on Wooler is quite a distance from Newcastle. It's actually only 50 miles but in terms of the terrain around Wooler which is very rural and up in the hills it takes well over an hour to drive to Newcastle even now - it would have been a bit of a marathon back then!
As for the English/Scottish question, Wooler is in fact, even today, further north than some nearby parts of Scotland and not too far from the border.
Christine
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Hi Christine...thanks for the information...I should have said that my 3-g grandmother, Isabel Hume (child of Peter Hume and Catharine Howie), was stated to have been born in "New Castle on Tyne Eng" on her son's death certificate...so what is being considered is if her parents were married in Wooler in1802 and had a couple of kids there, could they have moved and had their last child in Newcastle in about 1812? And then many of them hop a ship to Canada in about 1830? Or did Isabel just say she was from Newcastle all those years because most people would have heard of it in Canada? On the border question, thanks for that information - I may be imagining it but I sense a bit of patriotism as some people have placed "Born in Scotland" or "Northumberland Native" on their tombstones in this small cemetery in Ontario. Thanks again. Joanne
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Joanne, my apologies for not giving more info about the sites i mentioned.
the BT's are the Durham diocese transcripts (which include Northumberland) at:
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=waypoint&s=waypointsOnly&c=fs%3A1309819&w=0
however after a quick look this morning a lot of records are missing and wooler goes from 1801 - 1804 - not very helpful!!
do you have the date they emigrated?
Diddy
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i have just seen the info on A* so i see you have the date he went to canada - 1831.
interesting it says he came from a scottish family. scotlands people have all the scottish records back to the 1500's in one place. it is pay to view with free indexes and scottish records are printable. any ideas where in scotland?
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Diddy
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Joanne - just found out (by googling!) that a member of Rootschat has the transcriptions for
the west chapel in wooler:
"I have microfiche for the three Presbyterian chapels in Wooler"
google wooler west chapel / click on first entry / scroll down to entry by Meadbh and click on green scroll to send a PM.
she should be able to find marriage hopefully!
Diddy ;D
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Between 1754 & 1837 all marriages in England had to take place in the Church of England (with exceptions for Quakers & Jews). Wooler West Chapel was/is Presbyterian - marriages could not have been legally performed there during the period in question.
Given the proximity to the Scottish Border it is quite possible that the couple popped over for a marriage there. You could certainly check ScotlandsPeople however you may wish to note that it only has records for the Church of Scotland and some Catholic records which it has recently added. At any particular time a significant % of the Scottish population adhered to other Protestant denominations - these are not yet available on ScotlandsPeople. It is pretty hit and miss whether members of these other denominations turn up in Church of Scotland records.
Many Northumbrians went to Scotland for 'irregular' or "Border" marriages (think Gretna Green, however these marriages could take place anywhre in Scotland). These were legally valid and binding but less respectable than a church marriage & the Church of Scotland could and did fine members of its congregations who married in this way. Limited records were kept, with some of the 'celebrants ' being illiterate. Of the records which were actually created in the first place, only some have survived.
If one of the children was born in Newcastle, it is worth checking to see if the parents married there. Without underestimating the challenges of travel at the time, a glance at any of the main baptism registers for the period 1798 -1812 - when these were quite detailed - shows how many NBL families spent time in Newcastle, whether or not they were amongst the thousands who permanently moved to Tyneside and the employment opportunities there.
Good luck,
Matilda
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Good point to make about the marriages Matilda though sometimes non-conformists would have a 'wedding' in their own church either just before or just after their official C of E marriage. If they did this you could find some details.
Bearing in mind the proximity to the Scottish border they are more likely to have headed north to Lamberton Toll (the Gretna of the East).
Christine
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Wooler West Presby
Ann Hume born 6 Aug, baptised 16 Aug 1803 daughter of Peter Hume and his wife Katherine, Kirk-Newton Parish, born at Lanton
Thomas Hume born 21 July, baptised 29 July 1805 son of Peter Hume and Katherine his wife, Kirk-Newton Parish, born Akeld.
Janis
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those are the 2 i gave janis.. but see you have the parish born in - well done!!
Diddy
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I have the transcript fiche also. I don't have any marriages though.
Janis
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I don't suppose there's any sign of them on your Lamberton Toll records, Janis. Or don't they cover this period?
Christine
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Start at 1808. I looked in the Berwick Presby marriages because they were recorded in England but performed in Scotland. There are Humes just not the right ones.
Janis
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There are fiche with a few irregular marriages for the late 18th century in Coldstream Bridge available - just a few of the many marriages performed there. These could be an option to check as Coldstream was the closest 'major' centre of irregular marriages to Kirknewton parish. Many got married at the time of big hiring fairs or other fairs - alcohol was apparently not an unknown accompaniment to irregular marriages. However, depending on where they lived in the parish, your couple may have just walked in complete sobriety to wherever the nearest 'celebrant' was operating over the adjacent Border at the time.
I have the fiche for Coldstream but no chance of getting to a fiche reader this side of Christmas :( Another option is to order these through the LDS family history centres - see www.familysearch.org for the address of the one nearest you. They will explain how you order and view films - the same entries on the fiche are also available on film and you might find other family members.
The other thing that might be worthwhile is to order films for the burials for Kirknewton & nearby parishes such as Cornhill and Ford. In that part of the world the only place you could be buried was in a C of E churchyard, whatever your denomination. By all means also see what is available for the nearby Scottish parishes such as Kirk Yetholm & Coldstream, however Scottish burial/death records are limited prior to civil registration and in quite a few places were either not kept or did not survive.
What were the occupations of Peter Hume and your other family members? Shepherds, hinds and agricultural labourers were very mobile and it is common to find families in the census with children born both sides of the Border, reflecting the families' movements.
You might find this site of interest http://communities.northumberland.gov.uk/ - Kirknewton has its own section.
Matilda
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Hi,
If you are interested in photos of Kirknewton and the surrounding area i can help...often holiday up in the College Valley.
I was aware of people from the area being "recruited" for a new life over in New Brunswick
http://www.village.harvey-station.nb.ca/Craig_Family.html
Colin
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Thank you everyone for your suggestions and information...all very helpful and interesting! That's what is the most fun about researching family...trying to imagine their daily lives, conditions, motives...here is a link which gave me some insight into Peter Hume and perhaps you'll find someone of interest for your own family search:
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~onwellin/pioneers/1pioneers.htm
Matilda: apparently Peter Hume was a shepherd by trade so this could explain his moving about in his early family life. Perhaps he was motivated to travel to the 'new world' to practice his religion? or was enticed by the offer of plentiful land good for sheep. I will try checking Newcastle weddings...and appreciated the info on Kirknewton.
Diddy: I will send message to Meadbh in the next day or so re. the wedding in Wooler.
Christine: I am not understanding why this couple would marry in the 'Gretna Green' type ceremony...their marriage in the presbyterian church was not legal so they then went to this Gretna Green place to make it legal?
Janis...thanks for the searches...I will also get out the map and find Akeld and Lanton...and Colin, a photo of 2 of the countryside in this area would be wonderful...I would add to my tree over at ancestry.com if that's OK with you.
I often wondered how these pioneers could stand the cold climate of Canada (I was born there but live in Texas now), yet when I see how far north in England they were living, they probably felt right at home!
Thanks again, Joanne
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"I am not understanding why this couple would marry in the 'Gretna Green' type ceremony...their marriage in the presbyterian church was not legal so they then went to this Gretna Green place to make it legal? "
See here for more info about irregular marriages
http://www.gla.ac.uk/departments/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/
My own view (others may differ :)) is that you will not find a marriage in Wooler West Presbyerian. Marriages could not be legally performed there at the time and I have not come across any instances of informal Presbyterian 'blessings' or similar ceremonies. In addition, I have seen no marriages included in the listings of records for Wooler West - you can have a look at www.northumberland.gov.uk
and www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/ and www.genuki.org.uk
The entry on the IGI for this marriage is just a patron submission - it is not extracted from an actual church register.
Can I check that you are aware that even if you find the marriage entry it is very unlikely to give you info about the couple's parents? Unfortunately marriage entries for this period are very minimal, whether Church of Scotland, Church of England or irregular marriages. a C of E marriage would at least give you a couple of witnesses but there is no guarantee they would be related.
What info do the Canadian death certs for this couple give? Congratulations on the wonderful resource provided by the short bio in the link you provided. The sheer hard work these early pioneers undertook makes me feel ashamed although I see poor Catharine does not get much of a mention for her contribution. It is excellent to have a firm date for their emigration - 1831.
Good luck,
Matilda
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Oh dear! Sometimes what I think I'm saying isn't how others read it :-\
What I thought I was giving you, Joanne, was an either/or situation. Either they would marry in England under the law (C of E church) and then possibly have a ceremony in their own church (though admittedly I've only seen this in Catholic records) OR they would go into Scotland to marry.
Sorry for any confusion.
Nice link, Matilda - very clearly written. I've made a note of it for a couple of friends who've just taken up this "sport"
Christine
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Matilda - yes, I was thinking that I might find information about parents on any marriage documents...and, unfortunately, Ontario death certificate information begins in 1869 and Peter and Catherine died 1862 and 1848 respectively...my home town in Ontario is a couple of hours from the area where these Humes lived and I hope to find some information along the lines of church records in person next trip...yes, poor Catherine's contribution was to have 6 children within 10 years and die 15 years earlier than her husband!
Not to worry, Christine...my misunderstanding...I am learning some history and I appreciate your information.
Joanne
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Just to say that the 1851 Canada West census states that Peter was born in Scotland and most of the Humes on that report said 'old kirk' under religion...
Joanne
Northumberland: Hume, Howie
Suffolk: Scotchmer, Lorimer
Berkshire, Gloucestershire: Arkell
Kent: Wharton, Addley
Ireland: McNally
Yorkshire: Tasker, Watson, Sanderson, Strickland
Norway: Maartman, Reinertson
Somerset: Mitchell, Budge, Bond, Brice
Scotland: McKenzie, Cockburn
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Hi
Glad the link was useful, Christine.
Joanne, you might want to check with the board for ROX and/or BER to see if you can get a look up but if there is a chance Peter was born in Scotland and if "Old Kirk" means Church of Scotland (which seems likely, but again you can check on a Scottish or Canadian board) then you may be able to find Peter Hume's birth on http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Of course he may not have been sure where he was born...sigh! In theory Scottish/northern Engish naming patterns mean that his eldest son should have been named after Peter's father; the second eldest after Catharine's father. Similarly the eldest daughter would be named after Catharine's mother & the second eldest daughter after Peter's mother. However people did not always stick to the pattern - perhaps someone died & so jumped the queue in being honoured, or perhaps something else happened that we can only guess at to disrupt the pattern, and some families never really folllowed it.
How disappointing to lose out on a nice informative Canadian death cert.
Hope you manage to track this family.
Matilda
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Hi Joanne
Apologies for delay in replying. I dug out what information i have on the church at kirknewton, took some photos and have written a short blog http://blog.northumbria-byways.com/2010/11/kirknewton-parish-church.html (http://blog.northumbria-byways.com/2010/11/kirknewton-parish-church.html)which you might find of interest.
Within the helpful leaflet provided at the church was this
"The original registers date from 1670.However they were damaged by fire in 1785 and only charred fragments remain.Apart from those in current use, the registers from 1785 are in the custody of the Northumberland County Archivist in Newcastle"
For pictures suggest that you try geograph.org.uk. It has royalty free images of the whole of the UK.
good luck
Colin
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Interesting information, Colin. Just one amendment - the church is mistaken in thinking that the Northumberland County Archivist is in Newcastle. You'll find her in Woodhorn Museum, near Ashington.
Tyne and Wear Archives are in Newcastle.
Christine
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Hi Colin
Just to say I very much enjoyed the pictures - I also have family who spent time in Kirknewton parish (though they were not C of E). This looks such a beautiful area - I hope to visit one day.
Matilda
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Hi Joanne,
Im sorry to pick this thread up so late. I looked through all my fiches of Wooler Presbyterian baptisms and, like Janis, only came up with those of Ann in 1803 and Thomas in 1805.
On the subject of marriages, if you google 'Irregular Border and Scottish Runaway Mariages' you will find a GRO Scotland publication of that name listing all known existing records of such marriages and their locations. I had a look at my fiches of Coldstream marriages (1793 - 1797) and Lamberton Toll (1804 - 1816/1849 - 1885) but they are both probably too early or too late for your enquiry. Likewise, my two printed booklets of marriages at Lamberton Toll and of marriages recorded in the Berwick Advertiser and other Border papers are also too late, covering 1833 - 1849 and 1808 - 1864 respectively. There is a fiche of pre-1837 non-Anglican marriages in Northumberland compiled by George Bell but it only covers a handful of such Presbyterian marriages in Berwick, Norham and Tweedmouth.
I had a look on ScotlandsPeople but found no marriages between a Peter Rule and Catherine Howie. There were three baptisms of a Peter Hume around the date you gave for him, one in Dirleton, East Lothian, in 1777 (father John Hume), another in Kelso, Roxburghshire, in 1779 (father James Hume), and the third in 1780 in Roxburgh itself (father Thomas Hume). Given the name of Peter Hume's first recorded son, the last one is possibly the most interesting. Under Roxburgh baptisms for 21 May 1780, the full reading is: 'Thomas Hume in Sunlas (?) Hill had two children registered here, the first was born ist November 1778 and baptized by the name of Janet, the other born the 11th December 1779 by the name of Peter baptized'.
Kath