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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: GrizzlyDad on Tuesday 02 November 10 19:50 GMT (UK)
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My g-g-grandparents, Thomas Ansell and Mary Ann Osmon, married at St Pancras Church on 7 February 1858 and both gave their address as 'Great Northern Railway AT' (Or possibly AJ, I think it's a T but the writing is hard to read).
I've googled 'Great Northern Railway AT' and can't find anyything. Was it a hotel? Does anyone know what AT stood for?
Maybe this is a question for railway buffs rather than family historians!
They may have had delusions of grandeur as the bride's father is listed as 'Vetinary Surgeon' when he's described in the censuses as a Blacksmith.
Thanks for any help you can provide.
Gareth
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Hi
Could it be "St" for Station?
Why not scan that part and post on here?
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In view of the location of their marriage i.e. St. Pancras, I suggest they were employees of the Great Northern Hotel, located at King's Cross station. I am not sure when the hotel opened, but a look in the 1861 census should resolve the problem. A quick google established the Hotel opened in 1854, so the theory looks likely in my opinion.
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I can't imagine them giving a Railway Station as an address, Roger's idea, - with an unclear "Ht." für hotel - is a good possibility.
Bob
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For deciphering
It's an 'A' but the next letter is not a 'T', see the start of Thomas, not an 'S', see St Pancras, not a 'J' there's one of those in the name box....
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here's a long shot...
A.I. - Angel Islington,
that's only a mile or so away
Dawn
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Hi
When the area was taken over for the development of the "railway" environment a lot of property was demolished to make way. Apparently, AgarTown was in this category.
So, does "A.T." mean Agar Town?
Were they living in some kind of "limbo/temporary village" created by GNR?
Was Mr Ansell being sarcastic?
"Living in a station" may not be so far-fetched.
Similar applies to "Somers Town" which was also (partially) demolished.
So, does "S.T." mean Somers Town?
Is this the couple living in SomersTown 3 years later with 2 children?
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This is how close Agar Town was to the railway.
http://london1851.com/cross04.htm
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Thanks for the suggestions. The fact the answer is not obvious at least gives me some reassurance that I'm not just being dim.
I hadn't made the connection that the railway had only just been completed. I imagined they'd saved up to get married from a nice hotel but a run down, demolition-threatened shanty town night be closer to the truth.
The map is fantastic, by the way.
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Could it be A.I. (as Dawn's suggestion)?
but "something" Infirmary? Were they one/both "sick" or injured when they met?
Or is there some kind of terminology for a temporary town for workers GNR bring in?
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Thomas Ansell was a horsekeeper (ostler) so would there have been a requirement related to the railway? I'd assumed he would have worked in an inn but I suppose you had to leave your horse somewhere if you were travelling by train ;D
You've made me think.
I don't know anything about sickness, it doesn't seem very likely. They were soon producing children and in the 1861 census were living in Aldenham Street.
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..was in process of posting this ...........
PASTSCAPE (English Heritage) - Kings Cross Goods Yard
Much of the site was made up of the sprawling Kings Cross Goods Yard some 58 areas of warehouses, sheds, STABLES, offices and sidings. This was laid out by the Great Northern Railway Company in the early 1850s. This vast complex, designed to service the goods side of the company's business expanded throughout the 1850s and 1860s, and was partially restricted and upgraded in the late 1890s.
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Aha!
In 1861, after they married, they were living in Aldenham Street "dead opposite" old St Pancras Church. (on the "edge" of the development area.)
They could have "lived on (his) job" I suppose when they got married ie above the stables.
However, there is/was the "old" workhouse (aka an infirmary) "next" to the church
(ok next to the burial ground next to the church).
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I guess it will be hard to find firm evidence that he worked for the railway but it does seem to be a strong possibility.
I still think it's a 'T' from looking at my GRO certificate. There is another 'T' written with the same flourish on my certificate but not all 'T's are written the same way.
It he lived/worked in this depot, could the 'T' stand for Terminus? I see on the 1851 map it has Railway Terminus written. You can see from Dawn's jpg that the other letter is an 'A'. Great Northern Railway A....... Terminus????
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Personally I think the Agars Town is the most likely to be correct. The 1851 map, though excellent has to be conjectural at this date since King's Cross station did not open until 14 October 1852. It was constructed on the site of an old fever hospital.
As has already been said there would be very many horses involved at this time. Remember there were no internal combustion engines, so all collections and deliveries and all taxi cabs and buses would be pulled by horses. In that era, Agars Town, and other areas demolished by the building of a railway would remain demolished, the company would regard provision for the displaced people to be none of their concern. Date reference from: "Change at King's Cross" ISBN 0 948667 060 Published c 1995
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Hi
I was sitting in a waiting room this morning and I had to smile at the thought.
BerlinBob said "why would they give a railway station as an address"?
If they were homeless they might.
Could AT actually be " A Tent"?
I know that I am being "strange", but the more I think about it the more I agree with Bob. Why WOULD they give THAT address?
Were they "living rough", somewhere around the station environ?
Did they spend their days(or nights) there, coz they had nothing to do?
Brings back memories of my wife's fave film, now what is its name?
Oh yes, Brief Encounter.
::)
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A history of the G N R shows an engraving of the engine sheds in 1851,there are several horses in the scene, also a reference to a petition by the men for houses to be provided because of the appalling shortage of accomodation in the area, repeated again in 1853, and ignored again by management.
It would not be unusual for them to be living in makeshift accomodation on railway-owned land, but i still cant think what the initials mean, but agars town would fit the bill, but its always descibed as a shanty town, and not the place anyone in employment would contemplate.
Mazi's oh
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Hi Grizzly
Wondered if this might be of any use in your search?
http://ukhrail.uel.ac.uk/glossary/glossary.html
Regards
EeyoreBlue
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Looking at my book again, I see that the Locomotive Superintendent had a house on the site overlooking the loco shed.What does it actually say on the 1861 census for the immediate vicinity of Kings Cross station?
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I have made the mistake of thinking of this as a Census address but it is a marriage cert. and just reflects what they were able to tell the incumbent at the time.
It would, I think, not be unusual if he were to be employed looking after railway horses to live onsite, the horses being in use 24 hrs and needing 24hr care, the early railways being notorious for expecting their employees to work all hours.
Mazi's oh
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There is a comprehensive glossary at the back of my book, and though it gives detail of at least three sets of stables, with drawings, there is no reference to accomodation that I could see at a brief glance. But then the horses were more important than the men who looked after them, it was cheaper to hire new staff than to buy a new horse.
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What I enjoy about this forum is that, even if you don't get to the bottom of your mystery (and I probably won't), you learn a lot along the way.
I had never connected my stableman with the railways but now the link seems clear. I just thought they had checked into a hotel (which now seems ridiculous and I seem to have gone from a hotel to a tent in two days!). It is a bizarre location to put on a marriage certificate (especially for the wife) but I guess they were just getting by.
Thanks to everyone who's contributed so far and if anyone comes across any more information I'd be happy to hear from you.
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Having looked at the marriage certificate,
(after some edoocashun by dawnsh - Thanks Dawn!)
and another 100 certificates "either side", then of course some people would put their work location down. Police, bakers, publicans, shopkeepers all do it, and more.
I also found an address, for a poss railway man, followed by "BWR" (note not GWR)
and a separate address, for a non-railway man, ending in "KT" (which I took to mean Kentish Town)
So, found loads of "A"s, and examples of "T"s written the same way
Therefore AT is not unreasonable, and bearing in mind GNR, then my original suggestion is my vote = AGAR Town (on the site of the railway development).
Did anyone notice that her father is noted as a "Vet" and the VetCollege is "opposite the church". Yet, the previous census he is a blacksmith. Was she "talking up" her father's occupation?
For interest, 1851 census link is MaryAnn, Richard her father, AND Amelia her sister (witnessed m.cert)
Ray
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The change from blacksmith to vet has already been noted. The real purpose of this post was in regard of to the mention of KT for Kentish Town. I know there was a railway hostel there in the 1950s.located in a Victorian slum building where train crews were required to lodge when working split shift turns. My father and other colleagues stayed there, and were agreed that it was of doss house standard. Unless someone can find census info for Kings Cross in 1861 I think we are stuck now.
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"Someone has found census info for Kings Cross (Station)"
1861 census (Kings Cross Station)
Middlesex > St Pancras > Camden Town > District 13 > page 54
RG9 118 6
First of a number of census pages, for KingsX Station beginning with
Richard Williams (48) Railway Inspector born Northleach Gloucestershire
includes next page
William Vizer (32) Railway Station Inspector in "Railway Cottage"
next entry is for "Stables with Apartments" (George Stevens)
then the Hotel on further 3 pages.
Enjoy
Ray
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Thanks, gents, good finds. I agree Agar Town seems to most likely and I suppose there are two main possibilities for why they put Great Northern Railway AT as their address. Either it was his workplace and they lived closeby or they were in the accommodation above the stables. That may be as close as we get but it's pretty close.
I am glad to see the hotel on the census. Makes me feel better about my original assumption. They were just too poor to be staying there.
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Will continue to search for a picture of the stables, there should be one in one of the GN Histories or History of Kings Cross I would think.
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There's also a GNR Society (History?) site somewhere run by enthusiasts.
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Found them (on a map of Kings Cross area in The History of the LNER) I googled old pictures of Kings Cross station and came up with a map of the location. Situated on the west side of the station, on the south bank of the Regent Canal, next to the coal drops and behing the famous gasometers, so not the best of locations for a Victorian Estate Agent! £3 tops I would think, or 5/- a week rent for life, at least if you were over the stables you would be warm in winter though smelly in summer. Still working on a picture.
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HI
Brilliant map = http://www.lner.info/co/GNR/kingscross.shtml
Redroger's stables are exactly where he said, AND
there is a second set of stables.
Effectively to the north of, and between, both stations.
Find the turntable, the stables are just west.
(As the map is on its side, stables are "below" turntable).
The second set of stables are almost on top of the current Agar Grove Estate.
Therefore, my vote goes for this set of stables for where they were living.
Ray
ps Unless anyone can find another set of stables......................... :-)
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Thanks Ray, I was restricted to using a small netbook, and hence had missed the second set of stables. Regarding the residence at the GN Hotel which now seems to have been a red herring, I had always thought they might have been staff, rather than guests. While the Agars Town theory looks attractive, if he was employed by the GNR perhaps their stables might have been the ones? though as you say, in that era there may well have been more. Will keep looking for pictures.
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It truly is a great map, but dated 1874, we must remeber that in 1858 none of the midland railway was there (st. pancras station opened in1868) and the G N R section had massively expanded. I am just wondering if 1858 is too early for the second set of stables.
I think we may have answered the original query on this post :) :) :) :)
Regards Mazi's oh
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Hi
From the text above the map on the LNER website ......
"It only took a few years for this simple track layout to prove inadequate,
when in 1858 the Midland Railway started to run services from Hitchin to Kings Cross."
::)
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Great detective work, thanks a million.
A picture would be the icing on the cake but, as I said earlier, I never expected to get this much information so I am very happy to have learnt this much.
Gareth
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Still working on a possible picture. However, have you approached Camden Borough Council Archives. I think they might have something.