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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: kamakaziken on Saturday 09 April 05 19:49 BST (UK)
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Hi Folks,
can anybody help me restore my sanity please.
I have run out of idea's of just where to look now, let me explain my problem.
My G-grandmother was Emily Heard (born 1859) was married to a Charles Patmore, prior to marrying my G-grandfather (George William Newing) they are supposedly living somewhere in Leyton (London)
In the 1901 Census at 14 Beaumont Road George William Newing, Emily Newing (nee Patmore/Heard) a son known only as "Patmore" Newing aged 12 and my Grandfather William George Newing aged 4.
My problem is that I cannot find out the Christian names of the son born to Emily and Charles Patmore, and subsequently have run into the "brick wall".
H E L P please !!
Thanks in anticipation.
Ken
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So we're looking for this family (as in 1901)
14 Beaumont Rd, Leyton
Geo Wm NEWING 42 road lab b.Barroms Kent
Emily wife 42 b.Walstone Essex
Patmore son 12 b.Leytonstone Essex
Wm G son 4 b.Leyton Essex
What exactly are you looking for? Are you looking to find both George & Emily in the 1891 census and earlier?
Casalguidi
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I think we are looking for Emily and Charles Patmore and a 2 year old son in 1891 but I'm blowed if I can see them at the moment.
Do you know age and birthplace of Charles?
Tricia
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Hi Casalguidi/Trisha
thanks for the time for looking for me,
What I am after is the Christian names for the son "Patmore" who was born to Charles and Emily (in 1889 I think - this is a guess as the 1901 Census shows him aged 12 years)
I think Charles Patmore died and the widowed Emily married my Grandfather (George William Newing) who spent their married life at 14 Beaumont Road, and were there when the 1901 census was taken.
I believe that the registration district for Leyton/Leytonstone would be "West Ham" but cannot find anything relating to "Patmore's" birth(this is the only way I have of referring to Emily's son from her first marrage)
I do not recall my Grandfather ever mentioning a "step brother" so am guessing that perhaps he was maybe a war casualty (he would have been 26 or so at the outbreak of WW1) or perhaps they just lost touch like so many of us do now.
I have a feeling that perhaps Charles and Emily Patmore perhaps lived in the area of Leyton/Leytonstone during their married life, and this is perhaps where my grandfather met Emily.
Thanks again for your help, it is appreciated.
Ken
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What I find a bit strange about this is that on 1901 he is entered as Patmore Newing. I can't find Emily on 1891 under any of her surnames or a 2 year old ? Patmore.
Think there may be a mystery here. Have you looked on 1837 online for the possible birth of a Patmore Newing? >:( >:(
Can I assume that you have the marriage cert of Emily and George Newing and this states both her previous surnames?
Tricia
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HI KEN, I HAVE FOUND A STANLEY PATMORE BORN 1890 WEST HAM SEP QTR 4A 206.
I HAVE TRIED HIS NAME ON 1901 & ITS NOT COMING UP, SO MAYBE HE IS THE ONE & AS LEYTONSTONE COMES UNDER WEST HAM IT LOOKS MORE PROMISING.
MOIRA
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Hi Tricia,
this difficulty has been driving me loopy for ages now, so do appreciate your help.
I have the wedding cert of George Newing and Emily Sarah Patmore on 18th June 1893 at All Saints Church Leyton.
George is shown aged 30 and Emily as 35.
The address for both is shown as 2 Limetree Cottages, Beaumont Road.
The fathers names (both are deceased) are Charles Newing and William Heard.
I have had a look at the 1837 site and found nothing in 1889 (1901 shows him aged 12) BUT a possible in 1888 is a Charles (after his father?) Henry Patmore, but cannot read the rest of the entry as the copy was very poor, think it is 4a 225 but then I hit "the wall"
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Hi Ken
If you know that Emily's first husband was Charles PATMORE, can we assume that you have that marriage certificate? If so then can you post all the details please?
Casalguidi
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Hi Moira,
Thanks for the info, interesting that you cannot find him in 1901. Certainly the West Ham Registry would be correct. Needs some looking into I think. Thanks. Ken
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Hi Casalguidi,
I think I have included most of the details from the certificate in my response to Tricia, but if I have missed off anything important, can you give me a shout and I can let you know. Appreciate your help.
Ken
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Hi Ken
I can't remember if I found this and posted on one of your earlier postings so if not (and just to let you know) I found 2 Lime Tree Cottages in 1891 and they're not there ...........
1891
2 Lime Tree Cottages, Beaumont Road, Leyton
Thomas William COLE 28 b.Hoxton and his wife Mary age 27 b.South Hackney
RG12/1345 folio 24 page 5
If you know that Emily's first husband was Charles PATMORE, can we assume that you have that marriage certificate? If so then can you post all the details please
Emily's First marriage certificate ???
Casalguidi
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MMMMMM......I am even more frustrated..... I guess I need to establish IF George is living at Beaumont Road Leyton BEFORE he met and married Emily?
We know they are together in 1893 when they married and perhaps they were actually already living at Lime Tree Cottages prior to marriage? or just moved there when they married?
Question is, where were they before they became united?
I have just discoverd that Emily's first husband Charles George Patmore died in March 1891 (West Ham)
So, where were Emily, and "Patmore" for the couple of years between Charles Patmores death and the marriage between George and Emily?
The more I try and identify "Patmore" the more questions I create about other matters............... please assure me I am not loosing my mind.....
Ken
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The 1891 census was taken on 5th April so that rules out finding Charles.
Do you have any further details of her parents or those of Charles in case she was living with them and hasn't been indexed properly.
Grasping at straws, I know. And yes, you are well on the way to losing your mind. Join the club :o :o :o
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HI KEN, IN 1881 CENSUS, EMILY WAS AT HOME WITH MUM & BROTHERS
SARAH W HEAD 48YRS
EMILY D 22YRS
HARRY S 21YRS
FREDERICK S 19YRS
LIVED AT HOLT STREET, EARLES COLNE, ESSEX
ALL BIRTHS WERE EARLES COLNE ESSEX
MAYBE SOMEONE COULD LOOK FOR HER BROTHERS TO SEE IF SHE WAS LIVING WITH THEM AFTER CHARLES DEATH.
ALSO I HAVE TRIED TO FIND A MARRIAGE FOR CHARLES & SARAH BUT NOTHING COMING UP ???
MOIRA
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There was an Emily Heard from this family acting as Housekeeper to two of her brothers but she is Heard and there is no child. I assumed this family was incorrect. Was she definitely married - have you got this certificate?
Ivy Road
Heard, Emily 32 Earls Colne, Essex Head Housekeeper Earls Colne Essex
Heard, Frederick 29 Earls Colne, Essex Brother Mechanic Earls Colne Essex
Heard, Harry 31 Earls Colne, Essex Brother Briclayers labourer Earls Colne Essex
All three recorded as single
RG12/1419 Halstead Folio 49 Page 22
****** This Emily Heard is still single in 1901 living with brothers********
Back to Square one!
Hoping she is living with th Patmores >:(
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Hi Moira/Tricia,
Now I am even more confused, just when I think you have solved the problem... someone turns the light out that was at the end of the tunnel.
Tricha, I dont think this can be the right Emily, even though the details do seem to fit.
I have assumed that Emily was married to Charles and hence why the child is called "Patmore", I dont have that wedding cert, but I do have the cert where she has married George William Newing.
|I am just going to go into the garden and scream at the top of my voice.... my neighbours will believe that I have finally flipped but I am sure I will feel much better.....
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Sorry, thought I had explained it wasn't the correct Emily as she appears in her own right on 1901 as does your married Emily.
Think it might be useful to search www.1837online.com looking for that first marriage(?) and also for Patmore Newing - even for a negative response. It is pay to view.
Do you have death certificate for Charles Patmore to see who reported the death? If it was Emily Patmore at least we know she was married. Bit labourious but these people aren't being handed to us on a plate ;)
And stop screaming - the neighbours will complain :-X :-X :-X
Tricia
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Hi Tricia,
No havnt got a death cert from Charles Patmore. Am off to 1837 to see if I can find the marriage. I have tried fro Patmore previously but no trace of a "Patmore Newing"... they seek hime here......
Ken
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Trish/ Moira/ Anyone.
Is there any way I can confirm what I have come across in 1837online.com?
I have a marriage for an Emily Heard in Apr/May/Jun 1888 at West Ham Registry (4a 112) but cannot find the listing for Charles Patmore (who I suspect (and hope) is the partner)
and another entry
for Jul/Aug/Sept 1888 for a Birth of a Charles Henry PATMORE (Patmore Newing?)
Is there a way of checking before I go and order the certificates just to ensure that its the right things I am looking for?
Ken
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Hi Ken
If you use http://freebmd.rootsweb.com and click on the number next to Emily HEARD mar 1888 you will see that (assuming the transcribing is correct) she married George Timothy KAVANAGH or Thomas Felvus OATES! There are two males and two females per reference number at this stage.
With regards to the birth certificate, you could try applying direct to the relevant registry office (West Ham/Newham) and ask them to check that the mother is Emily nee HEARD before issuing the certificate (do give them as much details as you have ie. birthplace) - the GRO ref that you have won't be of any significance to this registry office. They probably won't check marriages as many registry offices still don't have a combined index and would have to search every church & chapel in their district.
Best wishes
Casalguidi
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Do you ever get the feeling you are going round in circles??
Have had a quick look on 1891 and can't find an Emily married to either of those two blokes - just to exclude this lady. Was a quick look.
Can I be really boring, Ken and ask exactly what was written on that marriage cert. Did it say Emily Patmore formerly Heard or did it state she was a widow or what?
And who were the witnesses?
I smell skeletons in the cupboard, maybe. ;)
Tricia
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Hi Tricia,
just returned from a weekend retreat (in a lunatic asylum)..... Emily Patmore (nee HEard) marriage certificate details as follows....
Marriage solemnized at All Saints Church in the parish of Leyton in the County of Essex. Number 95. 18th June 1893 between: George NEWING aged 30 batchelor (Labourer) Residence 2 Linmetree Cottages Beaumont Road, Fathers name and surname Charles Newing (deceased-Labourer)
and
Emily Sarah Patmore aged 35 Widow, residence 2 Limetree Cottages Beaumont Road, fathers name and surname: William Heard (deceased- Coachman)
Signed by George Newing and Emily Sarah Patmore, in the presence of (The mark of) Edward James Norman and Emma Fredricka Wyld.
Any help?
Ken
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Not much :-\
Does prove she was married to this Charles Patmore so should be on 1891 as Emily Patmore even though he is deceased.
Was hoping one of the witnesses was another Patmore or Heard that could have been traced on 1891. Not so easy!
Will look at this again later
Tricia
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The Wyld that signed as a witness could well be correct as I am tracing Patmores also and have Wylds related to the Patmores via marriage. I have Charles Frederick Wylds b. dec qtr 1898 in Mile End and his father (I presume b. in Gt Munden) which is the area my Patmores came from. Could the child have been living in Gt Munden at the time of the census? I can't access all my information properly as I have just updated my genealogy program and need to find my way around it as everything has moved. Ann Patmore
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Hi Ann,
Thanks for your message, I hadnt thought about the Wyld/Patmore connection at all (it just didnt occur to me that perhaps there was a relationship there)
I suppose its possible for the son (????? Patmore)to not have been at home with Emily and Charles at their Leyton home on the night of the census in 1891
I have him on the 1901 with his new stepfather (George William Newing) and his mother in Leyton but only listed as "Patmore Newing"
Can you let me have any details you do have for the Wyld's and Patmores you do have please.
Thanks.
Ken
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I have a Nathan Patmore married Eliza Wylds 1875 in Gt Munden.
Nathan was born 26 April 1848 in Westmill, died 3 Nov 1938 Gt Munden.
Eliza Wylds born 1853 Gt Munden died 19th Jan 1940 Gt Munden. Not certain but I think Eliza's father ran the local inn 'The Plough'
Ann
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HI Ann,
thanks for the information it is certainly another line of enquiry for me to have a look at.
Ken