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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: Holmemoss on Thursday 28 October 10 09:55 BST (UK)
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Joseph Scargill married Mary Hallas at Emley on 28 Jan 1828 and they were living at Shitlington (what a nice place to live!) in 1851.
Mary was born a Lepton ca 1808. She was 43 in 1851 but I have not been able to find a baptism.
Joseph died in 1851 - as Shitlington in near Emley I think he may have been buried there but I am not sure.
Someone else has told me that Mary re-married at Kirkheaton on 16 Jan 1859 to Thomas Goldthorp(e). This is on FreeBMD in the March quarter of 1859 at Huddersfield so it seems to be correct.
The only other information I have been able to find is a Mary Gawthorp (born ca 1808 at Lepton) living in Heckmondwike in 1861. Goldthorp(e) / Gawthorpe is possible with a Yorkshire accent but Mary is a widow and why move from Emley/Kirkheaton to Heckmondwike?
They other researcher also told me that Mary died in 1874 but I have not been able to confirm this.
Any suggestions or comments are most welcome.
Thank you
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Hi
Ancestors on both sides of my parents all lived in the Huddersfield area and they all came over to Mirfield, Batley, Dewsbury and Heckmondwike. A few of them were Stone Masons and they would go where they could get work.
Chrks
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Not sure if this will help but has information on Kirkheaton births etc
www.kirkheatononlineparishclerk.com ;)
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Mary's second marriage is on the LDS pilot site http://search.labs.familysearch.org
Thomas GOLDTHORPE, son of George GOLDTHORPE married Mary SCARGILL, daughter of Jonathan HALLAS.
Hopefully the father's name might be helpful in searching for a baptism, although I can't spot anything likely online at the moment. :-\
The GAWTHORP family you found in 1861 looks a fair match to me - the children Joseph, Emma and Mary Ann match well with the SCARGILL children in 1851, and Charles (aged 10 in 1861) must have been born after the 1851 census and shortly before or after Joseph's death. (It isn't unusual to find children from a previous marriage recorded under their step-father's surname.)
I think this must be Mary with her son Charles in 1871, although strangely she is listed as SCARGILL:
RG10/4590/40/16 - Bottoms, Heckmondwike
Mary SCARGILL - Head - Wid - Emley
Charles SCARGILL - Son - 20 - Coal Miner - Emley
Ellen SCARGILL - Wife - 20 - Dewsbury
John RANGLEY - Grandson - 7 - Scholar - Heckmondwike
There is a death for a Mary SCARGILL aged 66 in Wakefield registration district (which covers Heckmondwike) in 1874, but it seems strange that she would revert to her first married name. ???
Rambler
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Thank you all for your responses.
I have looked at the Kirkheaton parish Clerk site but their online database is mainly burials not baptisms.
As Mary married Thomas Goldthorpe in 1858 but she was a widow in 1861 then Thomas obviously died shortly after their marriage. There is a death of a Thomas Gawthorpe recorded in Dewsbury in the June quarter of 1860 and the death of a Thomas Goldthorpe recorded in Huddersfield in December quarter of 1860. Either could be him I suppose.
I think the 'Gawthorp' family in 1861 is the correct one. My subscription to Ancestry has expired but I made a note a couple of years ago that a Betty Gawthorp, aged 3 and born in Emley, was in the household . Her birth was registered in Dewsbury in the June quarter of 1858 - so a few months after Thomas married Mary - but Mary was 54 in the 1861 census so it surely cannot have been her child.
Any comments most welcome.
Also, could someone please look to see if they can find Thomas Goldthorpe or Gawthorpe in 1851.
Thank you.
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The Shitlington you mention was changed to Sitlington in 1930. It is not a settlement itself but an area comprising the villages of Overton, Middlestown and Netherton, also Midgley (not to be confused with the Halifax Midgley). If I remember rightly they were in the parish of Thornhill, nr Dewsbury. Hope this is of use.
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Thank you, I am not surprised they changed the name!
Joseph Scargill and Mary's daughter, Emma, married Cornelius Hoyle. Emma's birth certificate gives Shitlington as her place of birth but, following her marriage, her place of birth was always Emley in all the censuses.
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Joseph Scargill was buried at Emley on 14 Apr 1852 aged 46 and Mary Scargill (of Church Street, Emley) was buried 14 May 1874 at Emley aged 66.
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Thank you.
To sum up; Mary Scargill, a widow, married Thomas Goldthorpe in 1858 but he died in 1860.
Mary, for some reason, had reverted to her previous married name in the 1871 census and was buried as Mary Scargill in 1874.
I wonder why?
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Hi
Hope this helps.
Taken from National Burial Index for England & Wales Third Edition
Mary Scargill died age 66 Buried 14th May 1874 St Michael the Archangel
Joseph Scargill died age 46 Buried 14th April 1852 St Michael the Archangel
Thomas Goldthorpe died age 44 Buried 11th November 1860 Kirkheaton All Saints
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Thank you, Janeok.
I can only presume that as Mary was married for 24 years to Joseph Scargill and less than 2 years to Thomas Goldthorpe then she considered herself as a Scargill.
As Emley1786 said Mary died at Emley then she presumably returned there from Heckmondwike sometime between 1871 and 1874 and was always known as Mary Scargill in Emley; hence she was buried as such.
In the 1861 census, there is a child Betty Gawthorp aged 3 (birth place Emley) denoted as a daughter. However, Mary would have been aged around 49 in 1861 and as Betty was born in in 1857/8 then this is before Mary's marriage to Thomas Goldthorpe.
There is the registration on FreeBMD of the birth of Betty Gawthorp in Dewsbury in the June quarter of 1858 and the death of a Betty Goldthorpe registered in Dewsbury in the March quarter of 1863.
Given Mary's age, I can only presume Betty is Thomas's child from a previous marriage.
If it is not too much to ask, does the National Burial Index give anything for this death of Betty Goldthorpe?
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Hi
Sorry unable to help with Betty Goldthorpe/Gawthorp as if she was buried in either Batley or Dewsbury Cemetery they are not on the Burial Index as yet
Chris
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Betty, daughter of Robert and Hester Gawthorp baptised at Emley parish church on 2 Jan 1859. Robert's occupation was a tailor.
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Hi
The problem of Betty now found not the daughter of Thomas. How did you find her?
Chris
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Found this baptism at findmypast.com
Perhaps need to be cautious at this stage in assuming it is the same Betty who is on the 1861 census at Heckmondwike.
Another possibility here could be that Robert was a son of Thomas Gawthorpe from an earlier marriage such that Betty was actually a granddaughter - it is quite common to find grandchildren listed as children on the census - although usually to cover instances of illegitimacy.
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Found this baptism
28.05.1809 Hallas Mary: father David: mother Alice: Abode Lepton
Francine
Should have said the baptism was at Kirkheaton
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Date and place fit but unfortunately Mary's father is named as Jonathan in her second marriage in 1859.
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Yes, I too have Mary's father as Jonathan.
I have found a burial on the family search beta site for Thomas Goldthorpe; this being at Kirkheaton on 11 Nov 1860. This doesn't explain why Mary was living at Heckmondwike in 1861.
However, it does mean Thomas Goldthorpe was born ca 1816 so could someone possibly look for him in the 1851 census to try and ascertain if he was married with a family.
Thank you.
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The Thomas Goldthorpe who died in 1860 and was buried at Kirkheaton may be the husband of a Martha, not Mary. In 1851 Thomas and Martha were living in neighbouring Kirkburton aged 34 and 31, both born in Shelley according to census. In 1861 Martha was a widow with seven children aged 1 to 16.
Sam.
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Thank you for the information, Sam.
The death of another Thomas Goldthorpe was registered in the Dewsbury civil area in the March quarter of 1861. As Mary was living in Heckmondwike in the 1861 census conducted on 7th April, then perhaps this is more likely to be the correct Thomas Goldthorpe.
If so, his date of birth was 1814 rather than 1816 if anyone is kind enough to look him up in the1851 census.
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I couldn't find a Thomas Goldthorpe aged 37 living in Yorkshire in 1851, but two aged 38.
Thomas GOLDTHORPE aged 38, coal miner, born Foolstone (i.e. Foulstone, Holmfirth) living Berry Croft, Honley.
Hannah, wife, 42, b Honley.
George, John, Joseph, James, Elizabeth, Jane, Benjamin and Mary.
2ndly: Thomas GOULDTHORPE, 38, coal miner, born Chappeltown (could be Leeds or Sheffield) living Monk Bretton, Barnsley.
Mary, 36 b Clayton-in-the Clay, Yorks.
John, Helen, Isabella, Tom, Alfred.
The first Thomas and wife Mary were living at High Street, Dewsbury in 1871, so not the one who died in 1860.
I couldn't find the 2nd one in 1871. but didn't search fora record of his death.
Sam
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Thank you, Sam.
When you said the first Thomas and his wife Mary; did you mean the first Thomas and his wife Hannah?
Or is the second Thomas and his wife Mary living in Dewsbury in 1871?
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Sorry, yes I did mean Hannah not Mary. That's the consequence of doing research late at night when the brainn is somewhat addled.
Sam
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Thank you, Sam.
Quite obviously then it is not the Thomas living at Fulstone so, if he is the correct Thomas, then the one living at Monk Bretton with Mary and his children subsequently married Mary Scargill at Kirkheaton on 16 Jan 1859.
There is also at Chapeltown at Wortley.
I know this is tenuous but the death of a Mary Goldthorp was registered at Barnsley in the September quarter of 1857.
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I don't think you can be sure that Thomas GOLDTHORPE of Monk Bretton married Mary SCARGILL, but it is worth considering. Hoopefully, some other data will confirm (or less hopefully, confound) it.
It would be worth searching for their children in subsequent censuses. Incidentally, Thomas certainly moved around. I think the Chapeltown near Wortley that you mention is the one I attributed to Sheffield in order to distinguish it from the one in Leeds. It was never in Wortley RD but in Ecclesfield, which was later incorporated into Sheffield.
The 1851 census (briefly) has this familym living at Shep Cote, Monk Bretton, Barnsley:
Thomas GOLDTHORPE, 38, Coal Miner, b Chappeltown.
Mary do, Wife, 36, b. Clayton-in-the Clay.
John do, 14, Hurrier, b. Yorks, Attercliffe.
Helen do, 12, b. Yorks, Duckinfield.
Isabella do, 10, b. Yorks, Ardsley.
Tom do, 6, b. Yorks, Cudworth.
Alfred do, 1, b. Yorks, Monk Bretton.
In addition to the Mary GOLDTHORPE you mention who died in Barnsley in 1857, there was another who died in the December 1/4 of 1860 and a Mary Hannah GOLDTHORPE, who may be the same person, in the same 1/4, both Barnsley.
Sam
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Further to the above post, I am afraid a search for his children rules out this Thomas as the one who married Mary SCARGILL.
I had already searched in the name GOLDTHORPE, without finding them in 1861, but I have now entered 'GAWTHORPE' and discovered they were living at Hollinwell, Worsbro', Barnsley.
Thomas GAWTHORP [sic], 47, Coal Miner, b. Yorks, Chapeltown.
Mary do, 45, b. Yorks, Clayton.
Tom do, 16, Coal Miner, b. Yorks, Cudworth.
Alfred do, 11, Labr., b. Bunk Bretton [The informant obviously had a bad cold!]
Emma do, 9, Scholar, do.
Sarah Ann do, 8, do, do.
Mary HAGUE, Mother-in-Law, 78, Visitor, b. Leicester.
Sam.
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Thank you again, Sam. So it was neither of the Thomas Goldthorpe/Gawthorpes you found.
Back to square one!
In the back of my mind, I seem to remember either reading or seeing somewhere that some (a lot?) of the 1851 census for the Barnsley area was missing or so illegible that it was not scanned.
If I am right then it is possible that 'my' Thomas Goldthorpe is simply not there.
I have looked back at my notes and Thomas was born ca 1814 with his father being George. Thomas would have been aged around 27 in 1841 (so his age given as 25 in 1841) but he may already have been married.
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I have had another stab at solving your problem of Thomas GOLDTHORPE/GAWTHORP(E) who married Mary SCARGILL in 1859 and had died by 7 April 1861.
To summarise what I and others have reported so far.
1. Thomas GOLDTHORPE b Foulstone ca 1813, married Hannah. He can be eliminated because he was still living (in Dewsbury) in 1861.
2. Thomas GOLDTHORPE b Chapeltown ca 1813, married Mary. He can be eliminated because he was still living (in Dewsbury) in 1871.
3. Thomas GOLDTHORPE b Shelley ca 1817, married Martha. He can be eliminated because Martha was a widow alive in 1861, which suggests that he was the one who died in Huddersfield RD in 1860.
4. Thomas GAWTHORP, b Huddersfield ca 1812, married Elizabeth. He can be eliminated because he was still alive in 1861.
Having established that GOLDTHORPE and GAWTHORP(E) are often interchanged, I had another search and found 5., a Thomas GAWTHORP b ca 1812 in Huddersfield living in Dewsbury in 1851, married to Harriet b ca 1811 with children Joshua 16, George 14, Ethel 13, Rachel 9, Michael 7, Thjomas 5, Alfred 2, and Josiah 8 months. There is a death of a Harriet GAWTHORP in Dewsbury RD in 1/1857.
Could this be 'your' Thomas?
Sam.
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You may have found him, Sam
From my the notes I made when I looked at the 1861 census a few years ago, I only have Scargill children (denoted as Gawthorp) in this census.
May I please ask if you can find one, or some, of the true Gawthorpe children - Michael 7, Thomas 5, Alfred 2, and Josiah 8 months in 1851 - in 1861.
Thank you.
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This family doesn't seem to be indexed under any of the spellings GAWTHORP, GAWTHORPE, GOLDTHORP, GOLDTHORPE on Ancestry for 1861, but I found some of them on Findmypast, where I am only able to view the transcript, not the original image.
Living in Cater Lane, Heckmondiwke:
Jonathan GOLDTHORPE, Head, Mar, 26, Farmer's labourer, b Yorks, Sandal.
Easter [sic] do, Wife, 30, Yks, Honley.
Susan do, Son [sic,] 9, Yorks, Dewsbury.
Michael do, Brother, 17, Factory Boy, do, do.
Thomas do, Brother, 15, Farmers Labourer, do, do.
Alfred do, Brother, 12, Scholar, do, do.
Mary Ann do, Sister, 8, - , do, do
There is a birth registration of Mary Ann GAWTHORP [sic] in Dewsbury RD, 1/1853. It would be interesting to know what it states regarding her parent(s).
I also found some of them in 1871, this time on Ancestry:
Heckmondwike Road, Dewsbury:
Michael GOLDTHORP, Head, Mar, 27. Wool Cleaner, Yorks, Dewsbury.
Hannah do, Wife, 32, - , Yorks, West Ardsley.
children aged 5, 3, 2, 4 months.
Alfred do, Brother, 23, Woollier, Yorks, Dewsbury.
Living next door:
Josiah GAWTHORPE, Head, 21, Railway Platelayer, Yorks, Dewsbury.
Isabella do, Wife, 20, - , Yorks, Heckmondwike.
Mary Ann do, Daur, 4 months, Yorks, Dewsbury.
Thomas not found.
Marriages in Dewsbury RD:
Josiah GAWTHORP and Isabella TOWNEND, 4/1869.
Michael GOLDTHORPE & Hannah VERITY, 4/1863.
Sam
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I think you have solved it, Sam. Thank you.
To recap:
Thomas Goldthorpe, married to Harriet, was living in Dewsbury in 1851 with their children.
Harriet died in 1857 and Thomas then married the widowed Mary Scargill in 1859. Thomas died before the 1861 census - I think the death registered in the March quarter of 1861 in Dewsbury is the correct one rather than those in the Huddersfield RD in 1860.
The children from Thomas's first marriage went to live with their elder brother Jonathan while Mary, for some reason, reverted to her previous married name of Scargill.
May I please ask for the full details for Thomas and Harriet in 1951.
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I forgot to mention the Betty Goldthorpe aged 3 living with Mary in 1861.
As Mary's Scargill children were mistakenly denoted as Gawthorpe in 1861, I just wonder if Betty is, in fact, a Scargill.
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First, the easy bit. There is a birth registration in Dewsbury RD of Elizabeth SCARGILL in June 1/4 of 1857.
There is no Betty or Elizabeth GAWTHORP, GAWTHORPE, GOLDTHORP or GOLDTHORPE. So your presumption seems to be correct.
With regard to Thomas and Harriet, I have a problem. The image on Ancestry is very indistinct and I am unable to access it on FindMyPast because my computer has 64-bit Flash version and it is only viewable in 32-bit, or vice versa. Perhaps someone else can look it up. The best I can do from Ancestry is:
Ref HO 107/2324 f 483 p 38.
Moor Bottom, Dewsbury.
Thomas GAWTHORP, Head, Mar, 36, [illegible] Journeyman, Yorks, Dewsbury.
Harriet do, Wife, Mar, 37, - , do do.
Joshua do, Son, 16, [illegible], do do.
George do, Son, 14, Factory [illegible] Worker, do do.
Ethel do, Daur, 13, Factory Worker, do do.
Rachel do, Daur, 9, Nurse, do do.
Michael do, Son, 7, Scholar, do do.
Thomas do, Son, 5, - , do do.
Alfred do, Son, 2, - , do do.
Josiah do, Son, 8 months, - , do do.
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Thank you, Sam, and I apologise for the late response but I have been away.
If Betty 'Gawthorp' is indeed a Scargill then she must be the illegitimate daughter of one of Mary's daughters; the surviving ones being Harriet, Jane, Emma, Ellen and Mary Ann.
Harriet married in 1854 so it is not her.
Ellen was 15 in 1861 so unlikely and Mary Ann was 13 in 1861 so, again, even more unlikely.
That leaves Jane and Emma (my GG Grandmother) both of whom married in 1860 so I suppose it could be either of them.
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I am afraid the only way to answer that one is to order a copy of Elizabeth Scargill's birth registration or to seek a record of her baptism.
Sam.
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You are right, of course, Sam.
Thank you for all your help.
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I can confirm that the Elizabeth Scargill whose birth was registered 2Q 1857 at Dewsbury is not Betty on the 1861 census. This Elizabeth was born in April 1857 the daughter of Isaac Burnley Scargill & Ann Hill Scargill and baptised at Hicks Lane Wesleyan chapel in Batley in May 1857.
There are no other births registered for a Elizabeth Scargill during the period in question but as this is before 1875 it is possible the birth was not registered although Jane Scargill registered the births of her daughters born in 1856 and 1858.
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Harriet and Mary were sisters. When Harriet died Thomas married Mary who was a widow.
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Harriet and Mary were sisters. When Harriet died Thomas married Mary who was a widow.
Baptism: Kirkheaton, St John The Baptist, 16 Oct 1814
Harriot [sic] Hallas dau of Jonathan [Clothier] and Ann, abode: Lepton.
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A possible marriage, 21 Aug 1806 Kirkburton, All Hallows
Jonathan Hallas/Ann Sutcliff
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1841, living Emley. {crumbs! 2 young women and a boy child all Miners] Just proves how hard times could be then. :(
Jonathan Hallas 55, Fancy Weaver
Hannah Hallas 55
Esther Hallas 20, Coal Miner
Ann Hallas 15, Coal Miner
Jonathan Hallas 11, Coal Miner
Margret Hallas 6
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1861, Flockton [jonathan son of Jonathan?] All born Flockton, except Jonathan.
Jonathan Allace [sic] 31, Coal Miner, Emley
Martha Allace 30
Thomas Allace 6
George Allace 2
Henry Allace 0
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Marriage: 19 Sep 1852 ,Thornhill, St Michael and All Angels
Jonathan Hallas, Miner, Emley, son of Jonathan a Weaver
Martha Beaumont, Flockton, dau of George a Miner
There's other marriages within a possible time frame where father is Jonathan, maybe you'd like them at some point after having time to digest what info you have so far. I found them on Ancestry, haven't looked on family search so they could be on there too.
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That's the family Libby. Great work!
It appears that Ann also used Hannah as he first name.
Thomas Gawthorp and Harriet had ten children (that I know of) and he was from Chapelthorpe and baptized 17 January 1813 at Sandal Magna, St Helens. Of those children only one became a Goldthorpe
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I don't think this has been posted, but it's a long thread, apologies if the info is already here.
1841, Thornhill, Dewsbury.
Thomas Gawthorp 25, Tanner
Harriot Gawthorp 25
Mary Gawthorp 7
Jonathan Gawthorp 6
George Gawthorp 4
Esther Gawthorp 3
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Emley 2nd Jan 1859
Betty Gawthorpe dau of Robert [Tailor] and Hester, abode: Dewsbury
I've had no luck, yet, in finding this family on census returns, there's a few possible Robert's but none are tailors.
Betty Gawthorp, registered Dewsbury Apr - Jun qrt 1858, 9b/484
No idea if she's the same Betty on 1861 census.
A burial: Batley, Feb 8th 1863, Betty Gawthorpe age 4yrs, abode: Dewsbury Moor.