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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: flutterbymusic on Wednesday 27 October 10 23:22 BST (UK)
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First of all, I'm new! So sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong area!
Have been looking up my great grandmother Isabella Deloche and her family and have struggled to find them in the 1891 census.
First of all, you've probably thought that Deloche is a very uncommon name - and you're right to think so. These Deloche's seem to be the only family in England at the time with the surname after My 3rd Great Granfather Constantine Deloche an his wife moved here from Faucigny, Savoy, France. You would think that would make things easier. However, so far I've found them under De loche, Delocke, De Loch, Delache and all sorts. The likeliness is this specific census record is not missing but simply misspelt so badly it wont turn up! So, its a challenge for you all to help me with, please!
Records already found:
1881 England Census
Frederick De Loche 26 Married Stationers Assistant Soho
39 Castle St. Southwark St George Martyr
Johanna De Loche 28
William J. De Loche 4
Mary Ann De Loche 3
Frederick P. De Loche
1901 England Census St Saviour Southwark
Frederick Delache [Frederick Deloche] 45 Westminster, Ireland (ireland is a mistake)
Rose Delache 37
John Delache 18
Isabelle R Delache 13
Thomas F Delache 12
Charles H Lowe 12
Moderator comment
amended due to copyright issues
please read the following topic concerning formatting copyright from subscription websites
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,282820.0.html
Inbetween these two dates, Johanna Deloche (nee Sheely) unfortunately died and Frederick remarried, which is why I really want to see the other record as it was just before her death. Also because it will be Isabella's first census record.
Any help much appreciated! Tell me if you need any other information.
Sasha :)
P.S, I found Frederick's brother Peter very easily along with his wife and child, so I don't need them!
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
I'm just going to post the 1881 details you have given above in a more readable format then I'll check the 1891 for you. What year was Isabella born and who did Frederick marry
All children b Westminster Rd
Frederick De Loche 26 b Soho stationers assistant
Johanna 28 b Camberwell
William J 4
Mary Ann 3
Frederick P 9 months
RG11 Piece 522 Folio 43 Page 17
EDIT - just found re-marriage 1895 to Rose Lowe
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This is the 1901 entry which may help with finding them in 1891 as 2 children were born after 1881
Indexed as Delache - 1895 marriage transcription on London marriages also shows Delache
Frederick Deloche 45 b Westminster - notepaper cutter
Rose 37 b Pimlico
John 18 b Southwark
Isabelle R 13 b Southwark
Thomas F 12 b Westminster
Charles H Lowe 12 stepson b Westminster
RG13 Piece 380 Folio 94 Page 75
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Sorry about how untidy it looked!
Can I just say, thank you so much for the heads up about the marriage document. I hadn't found Rose's, just Johannas, and so thanks to you I know now her original surname before her first marriage was Jackson due to her fathers name!
Isabella was born in 1887.
Thanks,
Sasha
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Johanna only died in 1892 so 1891 entry should include her
Johanna Deloche aged 39 Dec qtr 1892 St Saviour Southwark (Surrey) 1d 13
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Well - they either don't want to be found in 1891 or they are transcribed as something that looks nothing like their surname
I've tried searching just using their christian names but no joy there
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Have found Johanna and 3 children in 1891 but Frederick not with her, nor Isabella.
Have been transcribed as De Poche??
1891 - 7 Minto Street, Bermondsey, London
Johanna Deloche Marr. 38 b. St. Giles
William J. Deloche Son 14 Printers Asst. b. Lambeth
Mary A. Deloche Dau. 12 ditto
John Deloche Son 8 b. Southwark
So, where were Frederick and Isabella?
As an aside, have you found Isabella's birth entry as I can't find it anywhere?
Annette
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Excellent find Annette. I see the birthplaces have changed yet again
I couldn't find a birth reg for Isabella R either
1891 should also have a 2yr old son Thomas
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Afraid I've now opened up a can of worms.
First, CaroleW, son Thomas only 2 in 1901, not 12 (and his baptism recorded in London baptisms) so not around in 1891.
Secondly, think I have found Frederick and Isabella although you might not think so at first.
On 1901 Census Isabella shown as born Southwark (1911 states Westminster). Not having any luck searching for a likely Isabella born Southwark I then looked for Isabella's born Westminster. An Isabella R. Williams came up and an Isabella Rosina Williams birth was registered Sept.qtr.1887 St. George Hanover Square.
Looked at 1891 Census and then couldn't believe my eyes:
1891 - 139 Regency Street, St. Margaret & St. John the Evangelist, Westminster (ref.RG12 - 78 - 207 - 68)
Frederick Williams Head 35 Stationers Assistant b. Westminster
Isabella Williams Wife 30 Laundry Woman b. East Moseley, Surrey
William H. Williams Son 11 b. Westminster
Alice J. Williams Dau. 7 b. Southwark
Isabella R. Williams Dau. 3 b. Westminster
Albert E. Elliott brother in law 18 b. Westminster
As you can see, apart from the surname all the details match Frederick Deloche.
Did some digging and, as Albert's surname indicates, Isabella was born Isabella Elliott and in 1877 at Westminster married a Charles Williams. You can find them on the census in 1881 on RG11 - 119 - 24 - 41. Charles' age, birthplace and occupation do not match the details given for Frederick Williams in 1891.
So, it looks like Frederick Deloche had separated from wife Johanna sometime between 1881 and 1891 and that daughter Isabella Rosina was his daughter with Isabella Williams (nee Elliott). Why he has 'adopted' the name Williams I can't say unless Isabella was the informant to the enumerator and gave his name as such. I'm assuming at this stage that Isabella was Frederick's daughter with Isabella Williams as I can't think he'd claim her as his daughter in 1901 if she'd simply been Isabella's daughter and not his.
Checked this backwards and forwards and there is no Frederick Williams that fits the 1891 entry plus evidence shows Isabella's husband was actually a Charles Williams bc.1855/6 Chelsea and there's a possible death entry in 1885. If that is him he couldn't have fathered Isabella Rosina leaving Frederick the likely candidate.
Only way to confirm if Frederick is the father would be to get Isabella Rosina Williams birth certificate.
Will leave you to digest (it takes some doing).
Annette
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Think Isabella Williams died 1894 St. Geo. Hanover Square.
Annette
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Hello, sorry for the lack of replies as I am currently busy but have just read through what you have found and am shocked. I will post all of my documentation on Isabella Rosina Deloche later.
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I'm not surprised you are shocked! Trust it to be me to open this can of worms.......
I note that Isabella Rosina Wedge was born 2/6/1887, d.1970 Southwark.
The only way to confirm she is indeed the Isabella Rosina Williams born 1887 is by getting the birth certificate which would confirm birthdate. Father could be named as Frederick but as we know they weren't married possibly father's name could be left blank although I'm sure Frederick was her father. Really can't say but birth date would be the clincher.
Sorry to have put the cat amongst the pigeons.
Annette
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I'm not surprised you are shocked! Trust it to be me to open this can of worms.......
I note that Isabella Rosina Wedge was born 2/6/1887, d.1970 Southwark.
The only way to confirm she is indeed the Isabella Rosina Williams born 1887 is by getting the birth certificate which would confirm birthdate. Father could be named as Frederick but as we know they weren't married possibly father's name could be left blank although I'm sure Frederick was her father. Really can't say but birth date would be the clincher.
Sorry to have put the cat amongst the pigeons.
Annette
Don't apologise! I think its made things truly interesting. I'm very thankful! I hadn't actually noticed before that I didn't have a birth confirmation as Isabella Rosina Deloche as I have instead got her birth information from her death certificate (of which I have an original copy of). Yes, she married Alfred Frederick Charles Wedge and so you have the correct death date.
Not sure if you've seen it already but I guess to easiest way of showing you all what I have so far is linking to my Ancestry tree.
http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/19989976/person/879970978
Yeah, I think I will have to get the birth certificate. Although it seems that in the Census Frederick may have been lying to make sure it looked like they were married (too much hassle to change kids names) and Isabella has been listed as Williams so that she doesn't stand out, I guess?
It does make me wonder if Isabella knew much about Johanna and Isabella as I guess she grew up with Rose as her mother figure. Definitely something to look into!
I will find the records you have found now and add them to the tree.
Thanks once again!
Sasha
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Woops, I meant she married Alfred Wedge! Alfred Frederick Charles Wedge was her son.
Talking of which, her sons and daughter have her maiden name listed as Deloche on their birth registrations.
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WOW - Annette - or should I call you Poirot?
That is one of the best finds I have seen in a long time so take a bow.
Looking at the 1901 image again - yes- Thomas is 2yrs old - flippin' enumerator has put a slash in front of the 2
A real can of worms indeed
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Afraid I've now opened up a can of worms.
First, CaroleW, son Thomas only 2 in 1901, not 12 (and his baptism recorded in London baptisms) so not around in 1891.
Secondly, think I have found Frederick and Isabella although you might not think so at first.
On 1901 Census Isabella shown as born Southwark (1911 states Westminster). Not having any luck searching for a likely Isabella born Southwark I then looked for Isabella's born Westminster. An Isabella R. Williams came up and an Isabella Rosina Williams birth was registered Sept.qtr.1887 St. George Hanover Square.
Looked at 1891 Census and then couldn't believe my eyes:
1891 - 139 Regency Street, St. Margaret & St. John the Evangelist, Westminster (ref.RG12 - 78 - 207 - 68)
Frederick Williams Head 35 Stationers Assistant b. Westminster
Isabella Williams Wife 30 Laundry Woman b. East Moseley, Surrey
William H. Williams Son 11 b. Westminster
Alice J. Williams Dau. 7 b. Southwark
Isabella R. Williams Dau. 3 b. Westminster
Albert E. Elliott brother in law 18 b. Westminster
As you can see, apart from the surname all the details match Frederick Deloche.
Did some digging and, as Albert's surname indicates, Isabella was born Isabella Elliott and in 1877 at Westminster married a Charles Williams. You can find them on the census in 1881 on RG11 - 119 - 24 - 41. Charles' age, birthplace and occupation do not match the details given for Frederick Williams in 1891.
So, it looks like Frederick Deloche had separated from wife Johanna sometime between 1881 and 1891 and that daughter Isabella Rosina was his daughter with Isabella Williams (nee Elliott). Why he has 'adopted' the name Williams I can't say unless Isabella was the informant to the enumerator and gave his name as such. I'm assuming at this stage that Isabella was Frederick's daughter with Isabella Williams as I can't think he'd claim her as his daughter in 1901 if she'd simply been Isabella's daughter and not his.
Checked this backwards and forwards and there is no Frederick Williams that fits the 1891 entry plus evidence shows Isabella's husband was actually a Charles Williams bc.1855/6 Chelsea and there's a possible death entry in 1885. If that is him he couldn't have fathered Isabella Rosina leaving Frederick the likely candidate.
Only way to confirm if Frederick is the father would be to get Isabella Rosina Williams birth certificate.
Will leave you to digest (it takes some doing).
Annette
Hello all, apologies for boosting an old topic but wanted to provide an update. I have yet to get Isabella's birth certificate however recent research led to several newspaper articles from 1881 reporting that Isabella Williams had attended a Westminster court asking to divorce her husband to live with "another young man". The magistrate was the 1st cousin of Alfred Lord Tennyson, a Mr D'Eyncourt. Her case was basically laughed off and she was told not to compromise her character. Newspapers as far as New Zealand sympathised with her however, she and her husband clearly had such dislike for each other by the time she turned 22 that they was able to plan out every last point - who would get the knives and forks to which children. Her story was compared to many a novel of the time.
I wouldn't have found out this information if it wasn't for the help provided here. I just need to confirm how whether or not she was ever able to divorce Charles of if he had in fact died. Otherwise it seems there was a mighty affair going on.
Sadly Isabella Williams died aged 33. I'm hoping to pick up her death certificate soon.
Sasha
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Hi Sasha
You can search for a decree absolute at the National Archives site here
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp
the department code is J 77, there's a possible entry in 1896/1897
Alternatively, there are some divorce records online at Ancestry in the UK, Civil Divorce Records, 1858-1911, the same record and images are there.
Dawn
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Hi Sasha
You can search for a decree absolute at the National Archives site here
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp
the department code is J 77, there's a possible entry in 1896/1897
Alternatively, there are some divorce records online at Ancestry in the UK, Civil Divorce Records, 1858-1911, the same record and images are there.
Dawn
Hi Dawn, thank you for your help! Unfortunately the record you found is for another Isabella & Charles (it contains a marriage certificate for a lady called Isabella Grove married in 1888).
Sasha