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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: feeline190 on Wednesday 27 October 10 22:05 BST (UK)
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Hi
I have a letter that was sent to a family member in september 1873. The person who wrote this letter was called Charles Hartley and he was writing to his parents from a ship. Unfortunately the letter doesn't have the parents address or names but it does name his little sister Polly. The ship he was on was the 'coasting steamship Monarch of North Shields' it set out on April 1st and it was heading for germany. He also mentions a Heywood Arms which I have a feeling is a pub. I am trying trace this side of the family as he is the only link to my Hartley side and this is all I have. My grandma seemed to believe that there was a link to Hartley jam which I believe was started in Burnley, Lancashire.
What I want to know is whether there is anyway of finding out if there is a ship manifest and what sort of info is on them?
Any help will be much appreciated
Thanks
Feeline190
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The local newspaper of the day sometimes noted ships departures and arrivals, passengers etc.
Also true for Germany I expect.
Lloyds may have a record of that ship and try all the ports it may have visited.
Good hunting!
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I believe the website "Find my past" has ship passenger lists.
Here is a list of Hartley monumental inscriptions for Burnley http://www.briercliffesociety.co.uk/talkback/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=513
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Some info on Hartleypool ships:
The Castle Eden:
Built by Thomas Richardson of Castle Eden and John Parkin of Sunderland.
They established a shipyard at Old Hartlepool in 1835.
William Grey started a shipbuilding company at Hartlepool in 1862.
Gray was one of the most influential men in the area and became the first mayor of West Hartlepool in 1887.
William Gray shipbuilders won the Blue Ribband prize for maximum output in 1878, 1882, 1888, 1895, 1898 and 1900. The yard closed in 1961.
I hope this may help in some way - try Google ships
esdel
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Hartley's Jam was founded by Sir William Pickles Hartley.
In the 1871 census he was a dry salter in Colne, Lancs (William Pickels Hartly) and had a daughter Polly aged 1
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Re: http://www.hartleyfamily.org.uk/Fame2SZ.htm
William's HARTLEY family is thought to be Lancashire Huguenot Yeomen, some of whom had lived and farmed in the Trawden area since the 16thC, in particular near Barley at the foot of Pendle Hill since sometime around 1620. They later went from farming to become fairly modest local Grocers in the district. [The HARTLEY family only lived in Trawden for a short time and never farmed there. William and Christiana HARTLEY lived in a small shop/house that belonged to Christiana's father, Christopher LISTER: Gordon Hartley]
Possible family grave at Colne http://www.briercliffesociety.co.uk/Grave%20Stones/St%20Bartholomew/H/Hartley.htm
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No Charles Hartley in the family though?
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Thanks all for the help! Still looking for the connection but its difficult because I don't know for sure where they're from. I need to get my Grt Grandad's wedding cert so I can start from there!
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William Pickles Hartley is probably a bit young (25 in 1871) to have a son travelling to Germany without his parents in 1873.
I think you would need to look for a family a bit older than this one.
If the family you are looking for is from Lancashire, a possible fit in 1871 is:
62 Bottomgate, Blackburn
Robert Hartley head 40 Beerseller and Cotton Waste dealer
Margaret Hartley wife 42
Charles Hartley son 17 Cotton Weaver
William Hartley son 15
*Margaret A Hartley daur 10
Robert Hartley son 7
Hannah Marshall serv 18 General servant
All born in Blackburn
*Polly can be a pet name for Margaret, and in fact the daughter of Robert and Margaret Hartley is named Polly in later censuses.
This site:
http://www.closedpubs.co.uk/lancashire/blackburn.html
does not include a Heywood Arms, but there is a Hopwood Arms, which was at 3 Bottomgate. This pub existed in 1871, and can be found with census ref: Class: RG10/Piece: 4177/ Folio: 67/ Page: 7
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Hi all,
I sent for my great grandads wedding cert and was extremly excited by what was on it. My great grandads father was Robert Hartley who was a cotton waste dealer and my great grandmas father was george Holmes who was a flax dresser (journeyman) although I don't believe he was her biological father as I think he was actually called george caswell.Witnessess were Mary Hartley and J. Dickinson.
From this I have found the Hartley's on the 1881 census but I sort of get completely lost at that point. I have not idea who Mary Hartley is.
And Charles isn't there!
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I think I can explain Mary Hartley, an explanation which includes an apology for a bit of wrong information in my last post - Polly is a pet name for Mary, not Margaret.
Robert HARTLEY married Margaret HINDLE in Blackburn in 1853. You can find this on Lancashire BMD:
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
If you use the same site to search for births of HARTLEY children with mother's maiden name HINDLE. you will find Charles (1854), William (1855), Mary A (1861) and Robert (1864).
Although the 1871 census clearly gives the 10 year old daughter's name as Margaret A, there is no Margaret A Hartley birth registered in Blackburn district in 1860/61 with mother's maiden name Hindle.
So, I think that Mary Hartley is Polly, and should have been recorded as Mary A Hartley in 1871 (not Margaret), and I am sorry for having given duff information previously.
Is Charles your Ggrandfather?
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hi Galium,
William is my ggrandad and charles is his brother. All I have from this side of the family is a letter written by charles to his parents. My dad and my aunty were always led to believe that my ggrandad was an only child but obviously this isn't true.William was 53 when he married my ggrandma who was 44.
I don't know what happened Charles the letter said that he was heading to Germany but that doesn't mean that he got there or that he stayed. All that I know is that he was apparently a painter.
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How confident of the vessel's name are you? I've tried a few sites to get the background and I don't get it to come out.
You could try this site.
http://www.miramarshipindex.org.nz/
Happy hunting
Canuc
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Hi all,
Been taking a break from this side of the tree for a while as I was going bonkers looking for charles. Ive decided that I will put the letter I have on here.
September 24th 1873
Dear Father and Mother,
I'm writing these few lines hoping to find you in good health as it leaves me at this present time. I am now at sea on a voyage to Germany, I am on board the coasting steamship Monarch of North Shields. I have been at sea since April 1st. I had a sad misfortune in a gale of wind on the 13th day of April, ans was much hurt but I am alright now, thank God for it.
Please write and let me know how you are going on and what you think of me now since I left the Heywood Arms(Actually hopwood arms). If my Father is not at home let my little sister Polly write and that will do for me, so no more at present.
Your Prodigal son
Charles Hartley
Direct your letter to
Mr Daniel Anguish,
71 Blackfriars Road,
Great Yarmouth
For Harry Armstrong
I wonder whether i should trace harry armstrong
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My take on this:
The ship's name was Monarch
Its home port was North Shields
To have been on the vessel for nearly 6 months, Charles Hartley must have been a member of the crew.
Daniel Anguish may have been the master ... there are two masters of that name on vessels in the 1871 census.
Harry Armstrong - was that a name Charles Hartley was using perhaps ?
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Hi Shaunj,
I assumed that Harry Armstrong was a friend or acquaintance but I supposed it could be an alias. I have a look. Thanks
Feeline190
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Feeline190,
Have you looked at TNA website for the Continuous Certificate of Discharge? Not sure absolutely sure that it existed in this form at that time or what you can hope to find for the 1873 time period but it may give you some information for Charles Hartley or Harry Armstrong. Charles would not be the first to have gone to sea under an assumed name.
Knowing that Robert Hartley had sons Charles and William your grandfather and there is also a younger daughter, your Aunt Mary, known as Polly and you work on the presumption that granddad lived in the area shown as his address at marriage then you could hope to get something useful out of the 1851, '61 and '71 census records.
Do you have a copy of granddad's birth certificate to get them pinned down a little more?
The previous suggestion about passenger lists won't help you, passengers are not recorded for vessels between GB and Europe or the Mediterranean (Irish ferries the same). A ships log is possible but a long shot as not all were kept and the largest collection for UK registered vessels is in Canada (they gave them a home when they were going to be pulped.
Happy hunting
Canuc
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One Daniel Anguish was master of the British Queen, a Yarmouth fishing lugger in 1871 (census) and November 1872 (report of collision damage in the Ipswich Journal 26th November).
British Queen...Monarch...I wonder if this was Charles Hartley muddying the waters by disguising the name of the vessel.
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Hi Canuc, Shaunj
I had a look on the 1881 census and found a Charles Hartley who was living in great yarmouth and was the same age and was a master marinier but born in louth. I got excited thinking that maybe he lied about where he was born but when i checked I found a birth record for him. My Charles was born in Blackburn lancashire.
Canuc I dont have my grandads birth cert but i do have his wedding cert. I have got his family on the 51,61,71,81,91,01,11 census all in blackburn though Robert disappears from the family after 91 and william is not on the 1891 census but returns for the rest. Charles never returns to the familiy as far as i am aware. My dad and my aunty believe that charles was a painter but my dad also said that he went to the U.S tho i have a letter stating otherwise.
I will keep searching anyway, Thankyou for your help guys
feeline190