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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: exdancer on Monday 25 October 10 17:05 BST (UK)
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Thomas Keen born in Godalming 1841 September 10th. Worked as a butler and married Esther Snook in 1870.By 1872 my Grandmother Lilian Mary was born and in Sep' 1872 her brother John Alfred Wilton Keen was born Feb' 1877.
in the 1911 Census Esther who is a widow states that she had 4 children but that only 2 lived. So these children must have been born between 1870 and 1890. Esther was born in 1838 so by 1890 she would have been 52. Esther states that she was a widow by 1901 so there is a small window in which these children could have been born.
does anybody have any Info on who these children were? If you do please let me know.
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Have you found the family in 1881?
mod - answering my own question
RG11 150 10 13
9 Homer Street Marylebone
Esther 39 Married domestic by the day bn London City
Lillian M 9 bn Marylebone
John ALf 4 bn Marylebone
Cant see Thomas anywhere, maybe she is already widowed.
Room to have had and lost 2 babies between the known children, or before Lillian
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1871
Rg10 155 65 9
Thomas Keen, married, is a butler in Cavendish Square
Cant spot Esther (and any children) though!
Lillian's christeing in Dec 1872 gives an address of Northumberland Street
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In 1881 census Esther is given as Head of house
Marylebone 9, Horner St.
Esther Keen age 39 Head Married Domestic by Day b. City of London Middlesex
Lilian M. age 9 b. Marylebone
John Alfred age 4 b. Marylebone
Looks like he might have left her by this time.
Regards Amber39
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Hi
As both Lilian and Johns birth's were both registered in Marylebone have you considered checking the deaths of young 'Keens' in this district between 1871/1881 ???
Frederick William born and died Sept qtr 1870
'Male' bn and died March qtr 1871
Florence Elizabeth and Michael Henry both bn June qtr 1875 died Dec qtr 1875
Thomas Henry bn Dec qtr 1874 died June qtr 1877
Harriett bn and died Dec qtr 1877 (probably not her as close to Johns birth )
Thomas Frederick bn and died Dec qtr 1879
Rosie
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Looks like he might have left her by this time.
I expect he was just butlering in a big house somewhere - as in 1871
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Hello everybody thank you for trying to help. I have found most of the Census stuff, but as for the children I guess I will just have to do it the expensive way and buy certificats. I have looked at most of the Thomas Keen stuff but on Johns Baptsim the name has been changed to John instead of Thomas, now this could be due to the fact that Esther's Elizabeth also married a Thomas Keen, only he was from Devon not Surrey. It also seems that Great Granfather Thomas changed his job and became a leather dresser by this time. Then there is a Thomas Keane Leather dresser from Godalming working in Warwick in 1891 age 50. Could this be Great Grand Daddy?
I have not found a death for this Thomas and I am thinking that he may have not been on British soil when he died. But I will just keep looking. There is one that is a gun smith, but I thought Butler to leather dresser and then Gun smith is maybe too many changes, but once again thank you
By the way one child that I feel might be right is Harriet As The Mother of Thomas was called Harriet
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Hi,
Have you considered and ruled out the death of a Thomas Keen aged 58 = c1841 March q London City 1c 13
John
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Goodmorning John
I have looked at this Thomas Keen in the city and even have the death certificate, but there is no wife mentioned on the certificate and it says that he is a gun smith. I don't know how hard that job is but it seemed a big jump from Butler to leather dresser and then to gun smith. I have not ruled that Thomas Keen out though as Thomas is shown as living on my Grandmothers wedding Cert' in 1898, but then shown as dead on her brothers Licence in 1907, plus Esther says that she is a widow in 1901. I must say the Gun Smith thing is the thing that makes me doubt this is him. I really don't know as there is nothing on the certificate to say that this is him, but then there is nothing to say that it isn't.
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Hi
You say that Thomas was still alive when your grandmother married - did he witness the marriage? If you are just going on the fact that it didn't say he was deceased that information is not reliable and only depends on whether your grandmother said he was alive, if she was actually asked by the clergy.
What was his occupation on her wedding certificate and her brothers?
Rosie
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Morning Rosie
this is where it is all confussing. He didn't witness the marriage of my Grandmother. And he is down as father Thomas Keen a Butler on the certificate. On Johns he is also down as a Butler with deceased under it. So if he were a gun smith would it not say gunsmith deceased? One of the other confussing things is that on the baptism record for John, Thomas is down as John Keen a leather dresser. Now this could be down to error on behalf of the cleric.
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Morning :)
What I find strange is that there is also a Thomas Johnson bn Godalming c1844 (a leather dresser)
In 1881 he is also living in Marylebone - his children have the middle name of Keen.
I am quite sure that Thomas Keen and Thomas Johnson are two different people, they are on census with their families in 1851 (though some people seem to think otherwise ::) ) But do you think they are related - Godalming would have been a reasonably small place in the 1840's, Perhaps the Johnsons were at the christening and his occupation was used in error (were they baptising one of their children) I can't see them after 1881 either.
Is Thomas Keane in 1891 your Thomas, or perhaps Thomas Johnson either way they are saying they are single but bn Godalming.
I do find the variety of occupations odd.
Still thinking ::)
Rosie
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Rosie I am sorry to say they didn't make it easy, did they?......LOL Thomas Johnson lived a few streets away from Thomas Keen in Godalming and they probably went to school together. They could even have been friends. They are not the same person, and I think Thomas Keen would have had to be very cleaver to change the records from the days he was a child.
It is possible that Thomas Johnson was at the baptism and it is also possible that he stood in for Thomas if Thomas was away working I guess. There may be a skeleton in the cupboard I don't know. There is no proof either way, and without proof where do you go?
Robert
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Rosie
It may not be a variety of professions they may all be different people that are not even related. I mean Lilian Mary, and John Alfred still have him as a Butler even after he is reported to have died. Plus Esther's death certificate in 1925 has her as widow of Thomas Keen Butler. So nobody in the family have him down as anything other than a butler.
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Hello Robert,
I just did a google search and found one entry in the Edinburgh Gazette for a Thomas Keen from Godalming for June 30th 1900!
http://www.edinburgh-gazette.co.uk/issues/11212/pages/661/page.pdf
His name appears on the right hand side pf the page, under the section titled "without competiton" and then the sub-title "postmen". By going back one page in this gazette to page /660/ it states that these were "Certified Civil Service Commissioned Appointments". Do you think this is him? Maybe he had moved to Scotland from Warwick after the 1891 census? It could be worth searching Scottish Census records and Death Indices to see if he appears in those.
Regards,
Paul
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Ok,
Scratch the bit about him moving to Scotland, because the same entry also appeared in the London Gazette:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/27207/pages/4135
These entries sees to suggest, if it is the same Thomas keen from Godalming, that he became a London postman in 1900!?
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Sarching these records might reveal who was thomas Keen, postman, from Godalming.
http://postalheritage.org.uk/collections/archive/familyhistory/
Address: Freeling House
Phoenix Place
LONDON
WC1X 0DL
•Email: info@postalheritage.org.uk
•Phone: +44 (0)20 7239 2570
•Fax: +44 (0)20 7239 2576
•Minicom: +44 (0)20 7239 2572
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Sorry!
Forget my posts above, further census research has now found that there was a Thomas Keen, born circa 1875 working as a postman in Hambledon, in 1901. It's just down the road from Godalming!
Drat! Oh well, it looked promising at first, but never mind, at least that rules out another Thomas from Godalming!
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Goodmorning Paul
Thank you for your reply. Sorry I have not been on roots for a few weeks. However I saw your posts this morning. Thomas was definately born in 1841 in Godalming I have his birth certificate, so the dates of the one that you have found don't match. I can only say that Esther has the W for widow by her entry in the 1901 Census and her son has his father as no longer alive on his wedding lines of 1907. I have looked at a lot of Thomas Keens and the only one that I have found that could be him is a Thomas Keane in Warwick leather dresser from Godalming born 1841 but then I found this Keane family in Godalming which ruled him out too. So it is back to the drawing board but once again thank you for trying.......Robert