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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: little alison on Wednesday 20 October 10 18:19 BST (UK)
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Still wanted - a map that shows Ringsend 1870-1895.........yes. I now know it is outside the city boundary, and that is why all the Dublin maps cut off before Ringsend - can anyone help? Alison
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The OSI maps show all of Ireland including Ringsend. The 25" edition is dated c1890 - see : Glass Works, Thorncastle Street, Ringsend (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,717924,734173,7)
press 8 to see the correct map - the red cross at the centre of the map should be right on the works when the page loads up.
Shane
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See this c1880 map for a slightly earlier view of the area :
North County Dublin (http://roots.swilson.info/dublinnorthcountyc1880/dublinenvirons_c1880_N.html)
The map is in Google format and allows the usual scrolling and zoom functions. Ringsend is south county Dublin , but the map also cover Dublin Port area and Ringsend
The Bottle works do not seem to be present at that time..
see an extract of the Ringsend area below .. I've had to reduce the size a little to fit this page, the original zooms in to show a larger image.
Shane
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Wow, what a speedy answer!
I've had a good look at the original map and on this smaller one, right on the bottom edge, is a bulge that is labelled Glassworks on the bigger one - by my reckoning this is the Ringsend Bottle Works, on Fitzwilliam Quay.
On Charlotte Quay there should be the Irish Glass Bottle Works at this date? No sign of it, I am puzzled. I have no other address in this era.
I also had a look at North Lotts (says just Lotts here) but it is jam full of buildings so I can't see the Dublin Bottle Works.
I have been doing a lot of reserach and I reckon my ggfather worked at the RBW, then the IGBW, then ran the Hibernian Bottle works which opened later. He went bankrupt.
Many thanks, Alison
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North Lotts is in the City centre and a built up area. Industry like Glass works are usually located on the outskirts of the city or sometimes in the port area. Maybe the North Lotts address was an office or warehouse ?
what year were you expecting to find the glass works on Charlotte Quay ?
Shane
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Didn't see your first (second?) post!
That's the Hibernian Bottle Works, on Thorncastle Street
- thanks again - Alison
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there is a glass works shown on Charlotte Quay on the 1890s map - see Glassworks, Charlotte Quay (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,717743,733897,7)
It's not present on the 1880s map
Shane
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I have found records of the Irish Glass Bottle Works from 1871 to 1901 in the Dublin paper online - I know it went on - but no other address in my findings. I may have missed something, and will check. I did find a mention that it did move, but no idea where - or when!
Again, the only address I have seen for the Dublin Glass Bottle Co. is North Lotts, no other area. Possibly it was an office, but usually this is indicated?
However, now I know which bottle works is in the old photo I found of Ringsend - I didn't record where I found it, but it shows the bridge over the Dodder looking upstream, with a bottle cone visible over other buildings........that's the Ringsend Bottle Works.
Thanks again - Alison
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I think the glass works is shown on the 1880s map... but not labelled. Three of the structures shown on the 1890s map are also present in 1880 - see extract below. Compare these to the buildings on the same site on the 1890s map
The works is listed under two addresses in Thom's 1879, Ringsend Road, which runs just to the south of it, and also under Charlotte quay, which runs to the north.
The Irish Glass Bottle Co., Ringsend Road
J.A. & R. King - proprietors
The same details appear in the 1872 edition.
Ringsend road leads to the bridge which goes east towards the village.
Shane
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Right, now I know it was there in 1890.
I will check back - I was in touch with an architects' site way back.
..........That's www.dia.ie , and they said:
"I think that the Irish Glass Bottle Co. must have been built as the advertisement suggests. The reference to the Irish Builder of 1 Feb 1871 which I cite says that glass and bottle works ‘are being erected’ on Charlotte Quay for the ‘Irish Glass Co.’ to designs by Thomas Holbrook. Contractor: Nolan & Son. The 1874 PO directory in its street directory section for Ringsend shows that there was an Irish Glass Bottle Co.(props: J.A. & R. King) on Charlotte Quay and a Ringsend Bottle Works (props: Robert Smyth, William Arthur and Robert William Smyth) on Fitzwilliam Quay."
I had found an advert in a Belfast paper (1870) that James Alexander King was going to build a bottle works in Ringsend - seemed my ggfather might have thought it a new opportunity.
That year he went to Dublin.
Cheers, Alison.
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Re not labelled - I think you are right - Alison
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The only reference to Glass or Bottles on (north) Lotts in 1879 is this one :
49 Warren Carson & Co., bottle stores
In 1872 the index mentions Dublin Glass Bottle works with two addresses :
North Lotts
Sheriff St Upper
Unfortunately some pages around L an N are missing from my 1872 Thom's, so I cannot check North Lotts. The Upr Sheriff street address is listed as :
46 Upr Sheriff St - Dublin Glass Bottle Works
Proprietor William Campbell
his residence : 26 Gardiner's Place
Upper Sheriff Street is the section which is to the east and leads to the docks area. Since the works is at Sheriff St that would suggest that something else is at North Lotts - maybe stores, warehouse or office.
see extract of the 1880s map below showing the works ...
Shane
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just to follow up on the details in the 1879 directory :
The trade index has :
Dublin Glass Bottle Works, North Lotts and 46 Upr Sherrif St
but the street listing has Mr.Carson at North Lotts, and the works and proprietor as per 1872 :
49 Warren Carson & Co., bottle stores
46 Upr Sheriff St - Dublin Glass Bottle Works
Proprietor William Campbell
his residence : 26 Gardiner's Place
maybe W. Carson ran the stores for the company, and that's why he's listed at the address ?
Shane
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This is going so quickly that I got four alerts on your last post, while I was eating!
Thanks again, I feel this has really progressed, I have a much better idea of all the bottle works in Ringsend.
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one more for you....
See below for the glassworks on Fitzwilliam quay in 1880. It's located along the east bank of the river Dodder to the south of Ringsend Bridge.
and a link to the same location on the OSI map - Glassworks, Fitzwilliam Quay (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,718039,733710,7)
It's listed in Thom's 1879 as :
Ringsend Glass Bottle Company, Fitzwilliam Quay, Ringsend
proprietors : Robert Smyth, William Arthur
Shane
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I found another bottle works - the National Bottle Works (Atkinson's) at Cambridge Place, marked 'bottle works'.
The Hibernian Bottle Works looks as if it was in a very convenient place, right on the tip of the point by the river. I wonder why he did go bankrupt.
A very clever map - it does just what I want! - Alison
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Re http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,717547,733659,6
This map is very interesting. Press 8, and the cross cursor should be in the middle of Gordon Street.
If you can set it for 1:5000 in the STATUS window, and set the HISTORIC LAYERS on to show Factories and Gas works, there are two more things visible.
a) there is yet another bottle factory marked on South Lotts Road
b) there are TWO gasometers clearly marked where I have only heard of one - now surviving as flats/hotel.
These aren't visible any bigger because the map isn't loading properly in this area. Anyone know of another bottle factory here?
Four of five that I have found already are connected with my near or more distant relatives! - any comments please! - Alison
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Hi Alison,
I have not posted on here[Rootschat]for many years.
So bear with me :)
I have been compiling a history of Ringsend & Irishtown for some years.
The attached pic,shows the Dodder river,with the Hibernian Glass works building & chimney,
,on the right side of what we
[locals]
call the point.The Liffey frontage of the works,was formerly called Fishermans wharf,now York Road[although a block of apartments now built,retain that name.
Not to be confused with the Point depot,former rail depot#[facing in photo] on the North wall quayside..
[now the O2 arena#]
The other 'Ringsend bottle works' chimney, with some structures extant,is still along Fitzwilliam qy.at the junction with London-bridge Road.[which I have an old pic of also]
I was born beside the leadworks on Fitzwilliam str,but we moved when I was young.
My maternal Gt.grandfather[Thomas Dunne,died 1907, was a bottle blower in a couple of the works,inc' the Hibernian.He was also an organiser of the fore runner of trade unions known as 'combinations'.In my research on this,I gathered alot of complementary local info,so if interested in the local lore,regarding the men employed to go around waking the glass blowers for work[i.e. rapping on windows each morning]let me know.
[combinations,of workers,and trades,not affiliated to any other union,including bottle blowers &c]
Later,after it was taken over[post 1893?] by John Burke,the whiskey distiller of E & J Burke, established Dublin ,in 1849, who were the single importer & bottler [for 80 years]of Arthur Guinness products to the USA,based in N.Y. between 1874-1953..and as they bottled all the G- products in N.Y....I reckon they may have acquired, your John Little' Hibernian bottle plant in order to cut out any 'middle man'..The origins of the side street row of tenement houses,off Thorncastle street,called Whiskey Row*.stem from the history of J.Burke'whiskey distiller, acquiring ownership of the Hibernian works.The Hibernian name, does not end there,nor the works,for it became a meat processing plant '*The Irish Products Co.-Hibernian Works-'Fat melters,extractors & refiners[of edible and technical fats, cooked tripe,animal feeds &c'.I have not time now[tis 4 a.m.],nor the know how to add other snippets in photographic history to this post,but have other snippets to add,later if wanted...Worth mentioning,that once Dun Laoghaire[Dunleary]became the main point of embarkation for Britain,and elsewhere,Ringsend which had been the main port in use for such, became very industrialised,with salt works,leadworks,a half dozen plate-bottle glass works etc etc.I worked in the Irish G.B.works in the 1980s,on the 'hot end' as it was known,drawing up the molten red glowing hot, glass waste,which was traditionally known as 'bosh',drawn up, from a gathering pool,of bubbling hot water, at the end of the production line,using a 10' long drawbar,into a large barrow,the 'shovels' were akin to those once used by council workers to hoke out the water drains-shores with,but with much longer handles....thirsty work !The local sand was ideal for all glassmaking from what we call the 'shellybanks'.
* my maternal grandfather worked in the latter Hibernian works,known locally as the 'products'till he died ['67]as did his daughter, my late aunt .My mat.3xgt.grandparents lived on Whiskey Row,and within the surrounding parish of St.Patrick.and were trawler[50 tonne ketch-smacks] owners/fishermen,the first of several generations of ours in the parish,on both sides.I do hope this helps broaden the scope a little.or fills out the 'picture'.will post more detail/images,if sought,
regards T.
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Hello breener.
I am very interested, but I'm having to go back a long way and find my files on the Hibernian Works - it may take a little while for me to get sorted!
This is certainly a better picture than the only one I found, in 2011, from http://www.news4.ie/ - April 2011. (Appears to be defunct). I don't know if that's still available, I will put it up when I can work out how, not having been on here for ages!
I probably have a lot of info, some of which you may find interesting, and I'd also like to know more about other things you mention, like the local lore. Also the bottleworkers' strike in 1886 - my info has a lot of gaps in it.
I'll be back.... Alison
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Hi Alison,
I will have a root through my files for the local lore history.
The NewsFour articles have been archived.
You might find it in
here-> http://www.newsfour.ie/archives/archives-2011-2012/
Thank you.
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Hi breener.
I think I've attached the picture. I couldn't find it at News4.... Glad I copied it! It was only when they identified the road that I could see the chimney in the background.
The other picture is of my greatgrandfather John Little (Two, as his father was also John LIttle. Dreadful name to search for.) She is his second wife and not my ancestor.
Family story - unproved, via my uncle - was that he made bottles for Guinness. I think from my searches back when, that he was trying to start up a works to produce machine-made bottles,and perhaps had exaggerated idea as to the future.....
And this photo (which also reached family in New Zealand) was taken to pass out to all the family at his father's funeral in Lancashire in 1889. He was left nothing, and there are a lot of hints in the records that he and his father did not get on!
My query about the strike in 1886, which at first involved three bottleworks in Ringsend, was about John's apparent trip to either Sweden or Denmark - or both - to find glassworkers to break the strike. I've read some bits about the early union's involvement in this, but haven't ever found any details of what he did or where recorded, only mentions in the Freeman's Journal.
As far as I know John was in Dublin from '68-'70 until 1896 when he emigrated to South Africa.
Any comments? - Alison
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Whoops, sorry it's a bit big.....
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Hi Alison,
Thanks for sharing the photo of them.
I did look through your posts for same.
On two threads,inc'this one.
My Gt.Gt.G/F was involved in the 1886
strike.And like you,I have only found records,
for same, at the Freemans Newspaper archive,and one other source,which is not of much addition.
Freeman's also gave me an account of Tom Dunne's funeral,which saw huge numbers out on the quaysides,and across the city,on the route his cortege took to Glasnevin.
There were no photos unfortunately taken then.
I dont have the copies i got at the National Archives,here some years ago,
as they are gone to a restorer to copy-repair.
The Thorncastle str image you posed is the best known,and clearest image of it.
But there are others.
This 1st one from c.1880-90 shows Fishermans wharf,with Thorncastle to the right.
The chimney seen[above row of cottages there]shows the Ringsend Bottle Works plant at Fitzwilliam qy. The Hibernian works is to the extreme right out of view,but it gives some idea of the street back then.with gas lamp standard, at corner.
The 2nd att.pic shows a ship berthed a the slipway,adjacent to the Hibernian Bottle works.again c.1880-90s when it was in operation.taken from a similar perspective to the 1940 one I posted earlier.[from 'Hatches Corner']as it was,and is yet called locally.
Photo 3.Shows the view towards the irish Products co.Hibernian works along the [then]York Rd.
After this it was taken over by the Hammond Lane foundry Co,who scrapped old shipping,and larger
things such as city buses &c[I have a photo,or two, from that era mid 70s onwards.
In this one you can still see some of the original stone walls of the glass works.
Last pic is an advert for the irish products, c.1942.from the Capuchin Archive-annual of that year.
PS I could not post all[too large]so will add in separate post below.three attached for now,fingers crossed.
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Photos as per above/given order.
1.Fishermans wharf/Thorncastle str.
c.1880-90
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Pic 2.Hibernian glass works,
c.1880-
w-ship at the 'point' slip.
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3./irish products co.
York road,
w-original works,wall-structure
c.early to mid,1970s.
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4/Advert at Capuchin Archives-annual of 1942.
Irish Products Ltd.
Hibernian works.
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A c.1950s view of the Ringsend point & slip*
at The Irish products Ltd.Hibernian works plant.
With the section of original Glass works now taken by,
the Hammond Lane foundry[scrap metal]
*still extant.
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What is the thing connecting the two buildings on the left of your last picture? I think it's on the map showing the Hibernian Bottleworks which I have and can't attach!
I'm trying to picture the area and it's quite difficult.
- And, can you identify just what is shown in this picture?
I'm approaching the history from the point of view of my greatgrandfather, his family (brothers and sons in the glass industry) and his life and connections, which is rather different from a general history of the area. He had connections and relations with the names Memery, Atkinson, Best, King, Andrews. Any comments?
- Alison
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Hi,
I will try to explain re last attachment first.
The two connecting structures,at end L-H-side, of Irish Products plant
are grain silos.For the animal feeds manufacturing process.
[I assume you mean?to the left of shot]
Your attachment shows the same stretch of Dodder riverbank,taken from the Liffey.
There were several rowing clubs with balconied boathouses and slipways,boat yards
between the Ringsend point and bridge.[in other images I have]
The cone shaped structure and chimney are the leadworks along Fitzwilliam street,behind the present day Library[ope'd 1938 located on the triangular piece of ground between Thomas st.& Fitzwilliam.[map]
This pic* shows that ,viewed from Irishtown rd.[formerly Thomas st.]but,at the right turn jct. Ringsend village as per map.
The OSI maps are still available but at this[Geohive]site.
http://map.geohive.ie/mapviewer.html
This shows the leadworks behind Tunneys cottages*
Atkinson's you mention have anything to do with the other bottle works
located on/off Cambridge Place?
It is worthwhile studying the 25'' map and scouting through the Thoms directory,Pembroke estate papers[the Verschoyle land-lessors/conveyors at UCD archive-online.]
In order to figure out the older[non-existent locations today]
*where I was born and my folks lived as well as on-off,Thorncastle side/streets..
'The past is another place'.
I will be collating all I have to put into a no profit,
quatercentenary booklet.
For the anniversary[approx.]of the foundation of the village
[based on my research c.1620]
which I am donating to one St.Patrick's r.c.[of two]still extant rowing clubs
[& Stella Maris r.c..]Still based there,and who win most every competion along the east coast,and have entered/won the longer distance rowing competitions,in present times,on the Thames.
*added in separate post below this one-as too large &tc.
So I am using a broad brush to paint its rich history.
Would appreciate any information you may have on the glass works aspect,
esp.the Hibernian works,but all others for that.. .
Thanks
breener.
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Image 2/
Taken from-across, Thomas str.
nb.in general direction of Fitzwilliam qy.
As per map view.
Showing Tunneys cott's and lead works chimney-smelter.
[situated along Fitzwilliam str.]
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I take it my picture is taken upstream of the Ringsend Bridge, then.
I had wondered if the cone was the bottleworks (National Bottle Works) at Cambridge Street.
Do you know if there is any picture of that works?
Also I'd like to know more about the lead works and why there should be a cone!
Littles, Best (my relative) and Atkinsons all lived in that area and must have known each other well.
I see in the 1901 census that that works was in the hands of a Mrs Atkinson, interesting, and went on to still be in the hands of another female owner in the 1911 census.
On another tack, may I ask again, do you - or anyone else seeing this thread - know anything about the Plymouth Brethren in Dublin in the latter half of the 19th century?
Thanks for the pictures - Alison
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Plymouth Brethren https://archiveshub.jisc.ac.uk/search/archives/88c6f478-227e-379e-93cd-9e9ac25c3655
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Thanks for that, hallmark. Even if I can't get to the records, this has told me that there is a lot more online than there was a few years ago when I first tried! It has told me about Merrion Hall, which wasn't mentioned then anywhere. There are various areas I can explore now.
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Thanks for the maps and photos. I am new to research in Ireland and am just beginning to explore the resources. My great granduncle was manager of the lead works. (Makes me cringe to think of thhe lead contamination still likely in the soil!)
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This social club was located on Irishtown Road, and was known as the Bottlemakers Hall or Dolphin House. The building was erected in 1915 and was known as the Irish Glass Bottlemakers Society club. (The building is still there now) http://www.newsfour.ie/2016/10/bottlemakers-hall-mystery/
https://www.facebook.com/NewsFour/photos/bottle-makers-hallringesends-history-of-glass-and-bottle-making-goes-back-a-long/333362010027481/?paipv=0&eav=AfbnEtRyQp_snkCov-2URLCpRs4IK70XV_RzI0VfVCYSc4x7ps9n5CDgVgmSFQac_Ec&_rdr
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Some photos of Bottler's Hall, including some of the interior, on property website https://propertylocator.ie/property/the-bottlers-hall-dolphin-house-irishtown-road-dublin-4/
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The OSI maps are still available but at this[Geohive]site.
http://map.geohive.ie/mapviewer.html
This link no longer works.
Here's the OSi National Townland and Historical Map Viewer.
https://osi.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=bc56a1cf08844a2aa2609aa92e89497e
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great photos thank you my grandmother lived in Tunneys Cottages when she married in 1929
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Tunneys Cottages (Tunney's Cotts) - Ringsend.
Close to the Lead Works, and off Fitzwilliam Street.
MapGenie 25 Inch - ITM Map
https://arcg.is/qWnrz0
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Came across this site yesterday, which has year books which can be viewed on line or download.
This is one from 1926 and at the back has two maps detailing Dublin port. North and south of the Liffey.
There is a reference to glass bottle company opposite where the bolands mill stood on Ringsend road.
https://www.dublinportarchive.com/collection/dublin-port-yearbook-1926/