RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: smiley56 on Thursday 21 October 10 03:10 BST (UK)
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Looking for marriage details of David Gordon Hamilton who married Cecilia Unknown in Western Australia.According to his death certificate marriage was about 1944.Would like to locate maiden name and any family details of his spouse Cecilia.Both died in a car accident in Melbourne on 18th December 1959.No other details regarding family of Cecilia on either of the individual inquest data records. Hoping someone may be able to assist with a bit of information.Thanks Erika.
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Death Notice is not much help :(
Melbourne Sun
Monday 21 December 1959
HAMILTON- On Dec 18 Cess and Curley of 72 Withers St Albert Park result of accident. Loved friends of Ned.
Tuesday 22 December 1959
HAMILTON - David Gordon (Ick) and Cecilia Florence, dearly loved nephew and niece of the late Maisie and Harold, loved cousin of Hazel and Ray.
HAMILTON - On Dec 18 (suddenly) David Malcom (Icky) and Cec, beloved brother and sister-in-law of Roy and Essie.
Wednesday 23 December 1959
HAMILTON - Dec 18 (result of accident), David Gordon (Ick) and Cec, loved nephew and niece of Auntie Mag, Uncle Bob and Uncle George, loved cousins of Mavis and Jack
Thurs 24 December 1959
HAMILTON - David and Cecilia. On Dec 19 (result accident) son and daughter-in-law of David and Ethel (dec) RIP.
I couldn't see any funeral notice.
There was a very brief mention of the accident in the Sun on 19 Dec but no names listed.
Judith
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from reverse marriage website:
http://www.wamarriage.info/default.aspx
HAMILTON David G
Perth
1557
M
1943
GLOVER
Cecilia L
Leanne
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Thanks so much Judith and Leanne for your replies and information.I believe there were a few children in this family two of whom were sent to the Ballarat orphanage.I don't know who reared the others.Given the families listed in the notices, I don't quite know why this was the case and that they were not at least placed in a Melbourne orphanage near relatives.Once again my appreciation for you efforts.The Rootschat community always have members who can source so much data at a moments notice and those of us who post messages are always very grateful to you all for your interest and willingness to assist. Cheers for now. Erika
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I see them in 1949 electoral roll
David Gordon HAMILTON, press operator and Cecilia Leonora HAMILTON - Govt Emer Hsng, Macleod, Victoria.
Can't see any other entries, except in the death index and you obviously already have the death cert.
It's a pleasure to be able to help others - I have had such kindness form R'chatters so it's nice to give a bit back. And lovely to be thanks so nicely as well ;)
Judith
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Hi
Cannot help noting a couple of inconsistencies in names here ;D
DAVID seems to have the second given name GORDON, but is memorialised at Springvale where his ashes were scatterd as DAVID MALCOLM. This name also is mentioned in one of the tributes above.
Cecilia was married with the second given initial of L, yet one of her tributes gives her a second name of FLORENCE
At Springvale, she has no second initial or given name.
I'm sure these variations are unimportant, but worth noting in any case. :D
Sue
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Hi
I see from DAVID's ww2 enlistment summary he was in WA at the time of his enlistment 1942, though he was born in Melbourne (Brunswick)
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/script/name.asp
We wonder then, perhaps CECILIA was a Western Australian lass and her family details possibly lie there rather than Victoria.
Do you have CECILIA's death Certificate, or just DAVID's?
Sue
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The Australia Death Index gives this information of death registration:
David Gordon Hamilton, 41
Parents: Malcol David, Ethel Edith Crowley
1960, Victoria reg no 1896
and
Cecilia Hamilton, 40,
Father's name: Unknonn
1960, Victoria, #1895
Another census entry 1954
Cecilia Leonora HAMILTON, home duties, 14A Area 3, Camp Pell
Camp Pell was an Army barracks in the 50s in Parkville, North Melbourne. Perhaps David was away with the army as he is not recorded at the same address in 1954.
Judith
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Thanks Judith,
I did see that entry in the Electoral records and I had not come across this type of file listing before "emergency housing".Have you seen this term?I assumed it meant housing commision accommodation, a term I am more familiar with.
Sue your comments about the names I had noted.I did see on the Victorian discs that David's father is listed as David Malcolm Hamilton.On the Inquest discs and the death certificate the David I was seeking is listed as David Gordon Hamilton.I did not get the certificate for Cecilia however as I was looking into this situation for one of the daughters who was sent to the Ballarat orphanage.She knew the name Hamilton and thought that both the names Gordon and Cecila figured in the mix somewhere, so when I looked at the inquest listing I knew this was them.I thought if there was going to be any additional information regarding the mother's maiden name and children listing it would be with the father's details.Thankyou also for the war record link.When searching for records I access another site, but this link you provided is much easier to negotiate and I will definitely use it again.I will as you suggest also look into Cecilia's family in Western Australia.I hope they have some data readily available online.The entries at Springvale were quite a find and I was rather surprised when they came up so readily.Once again my thanks to you both for your time and assistance.Just got your new message Judith as I was sending this off, good to have that explanation about Camp Pell.Got the Edith Crowley and David Malcolm Hamilton from the discs at the library.Will try and see If I can identify any of the relatives who contributed family notices to the newspaper.Another clue about relatives may be that the person I know said one of the older sisters who was not sent to the orphanage travelled frequently to Dimboola in Victoria .Could just be a coincidence rather than anything significant.The plot thickens!!Cheers.Erika.
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a google search using terms "Camp Pell Victoria" bought up the following web page.
http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/ozatwar/camppell.htm
( this is an oldish website)
Whilst a quick search does not bring up the appropriate HAMILTONS' it does indicate that servicemen were transferred from W.A to Victoria
Leanne
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a search of TROVE indicates that children in the Camp Pell Emergency Housing Settlement would have gone to the Errol Street State School.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/37095815?q=camp+pell&c=book
Leanne
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http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/default.aspx
It is possible that the certificate of the marriage [details are above]will hold the information you are looking for. i.e. parents' names etc.
I do not know very much about WA certificate purchase.
Perhaps someone else can offer advice on that.
Sue
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A quick look at WA online records didn't throw up any clues for Cecilia as far as I could see - but I may have missed it. In fact I couldn't anything much anywhere for her. As Sue says the marriage certificate should give some further information. I don't think htere would be much on the death certificate as the index indicates her parents were unknown to the informant.
Do you mean that David's siblings were the ones in the orphanage?
I think the emergency housing would be Housing Commission accommodation. Perhaps he was still in the Army and was allocated housing in Macleod through Defence Force housing.
Judith
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Hi there. I’ve just registered today and really have no clue yet how to use this website. I believe I am a descendent of the David and Cecilia Hamilton that you are looking into whose children attended the ballarat orphanage. Did you happen to gain further information on Cecilia?
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Hi Ctucci,
Smiley the Original Poster of this thread has no been online in the forum for more than a year, but I have this for you.
An engagement annoucement
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/47367466
15th March 1943
.....Cecilia, only daughter of M and Mrs L GOVER (not GLOVER) of 71 Tate St Leederville.
....To private Douglas (not David) Hamilton AIF youngest son of Mr and the late Mrs Hamilton of Melbourne...
At about this time David changed his NOK on his service records from his father to Cecilia of the above address.
Sue
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Electoral Roll WA. 1943. Fremantle, Leederville.
GOVER at 71 Tate Street Leederville.
Leonard Greengrocer
Florence Eleanor. Home duties.
GOVER at 596 Newcastle Street Leederville
Cissie Leonora. Home duties.
Sue
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Oh maybe it is gover instead of glover, that probably marries up because I think I seen something somewhere else which indicated that Cecilia’s middle name was likely Florence. (So potentially after her mother?) I just wonder why they would print David’s name as Douglas instead of David? I should also try and check if I have a death date for David’s mother
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Cecilia's people were English and the family arrived in Australia (Fremantle) in 1922 on ship Barrabool when Cissie Leonora was 2years.
Their last English address had been 93 Thurleston Rd, West Norwood.
Leonard is listed as a motor driver.
Cissie has a brother aged 7. Ronald George.
Sue
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Wow Sue you are a wealth of knowledge I will definitely look into all this! Thanks so much for your help, I’m like a newborn baby in terms of all these investigation stuff! I’m assuming Cissie is Cecilia?
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Hi again,
To reply on your thread is really simple. It confirms you have received and seen the information offered
Once you are logged in and your thread is open, look for the Reply button. One is at the top of the whole page and one is at bottom. Click either one and a reply window will open.
Type away and then press the Post button just below the window. Everyone will see your reply and be able to hopefully continue with assisting in your query.
Meantime.
Leonard , Cecilia's father joined the forces in WW2.
You can read his digitised file at
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/
Type in his name.
There is a picture in it. Attached here
Sue
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Hi Sue! I did reply earlier today but it says it’s still waiting on a moderator to approve?
My message was “ Wow Sue you are a wealth of knowledge I will definitely look into all this! Thanks so much for your help, I’m like a newborn baby in terms of all these investigation stuff! I’m assuming Cissie is Cecilia?”
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Hi
About the wait time. Sometimes things do get a little stuck in the system. Our wonderful voluntary moderators are very busy people. To protect us all from any misuse/abuse of the forum, new users' very early posts are sometimes held over for review before publishing (just in case...) ;D
All good now though.
Yes, it seems Ceilia preferred to be known as Cissie, Cess etc.
Early in the thread, I do see judb posted a death notice where she is referred to as Cec.
I think the two variations in her name, both her first and surname (GOVER not GLOVER) are what has hindered earlier successs in researching her.
I can't find what happened to her brother Ronald.
I'll keep looking.
Sue
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Thanks Sue! I went down a big rabbit hole yesterday after your help and I’m pretty sure Cecilia’s mother was born Florence eleanor SECKER in December 1886 to father James ford SECKER. Then I think she might have been married in June 1908 to a someone HANSEN before marrying Leonard GOVER in September 1918. I got most of this from the register lists and Ben websites though so cannot confirm without getting the certificates I suppose. I also seen something interesting on the NAA website you showed me on Leonard GOVER. The document of the war graves commission seems to list and F. E. Bowers from 306 Surrey Road, Kewdale WA as the next of kin listed as a “friend”. I looked into this but I think Florence passed in 1971 and Leonard seems to have passed in 1974.
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Yes, I would agree with your findings.
The Hanson marriage (FreeBMD UK)
June quarter 1908
HANSON George Walter
SECKER Florence Eleanor
At B. Stortford 3a1171
By 1911 they have not had any children.
However in 1915, this birth.
Births Sep quarter 1915
HANSON Ronald G V
Mother SECKER
At Lambeth
1d/766
It looks like Cecilia was actually registered as Cissie
Sept quarter 1920
GOVER Cissie L.
mother SECKER
At Lambeth
1d 875
I wonder what happend to George and when he ceased being with Florence.
A war casualty maybe.
Do you wantt to say where do you descend in the family?
Sue
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Yes, it looks like Ronald used the surname HANSON after arrival in WA.
Perhaps it was just easier to put him under the GOVER name as a 7 year old on the shipping arrival.
From the Electoral Rol n WA I see..
By 1949, he was a married man living in North Perth. A woodyard proprietor named Ronald George Vane HANSON at 174 Vincent Street.
Sue
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Wow I feel like this complete road block for my whole life is all finally getting somewhere! And mostly seems to be as a result of this site and some amazing people willing to help so readily!
Cecilia and David HAMILTONS daughter Yvonne is my grandmother (through my mother) She grew up in the ballarat orphanage, victoria, but never spoke about family other than a few of her siblings so I never knew anything more about my lineage. My mother doesn’t know much either. I would have disclosed this earlier but I wasn’t sure if I was allowed to.
I don’t know how people can just go about their lives being content without knowing this information! lol ???
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Also really good to know about Ronald because I was really starting to wonder what happened to him!
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Ah, Now I see where you fit in.
It is usually fine to discuss our ancestors by name.
The major rule is no living people by name.
If your gran is still living, you can just delete her name using the Modify button at the top corner of the relevant post. Then press Save
Yes, good to have found Ronald.
Sue
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Hi,
A few more bits for you.
Ronald joined the RAAF in WW2 and his NOK was Roma .
It will be worthwhile you reading this record. Use the method previously suggested.
In the record you will learn his children’s names and a good deal of other helpful information, including that he was schooled at the Subiaco State Sch. So probably so was sister Cecilia. And there are a couple of photos of him.
Marriage
Croninburg, Roma A (Ashielia)
Hanson, Ronald G V
Perth. 1936/ 38
In 1945 he divorced Roma. She later remarried.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/95615096
And he remarried in 1946.
Menghini Irene C (Catherine/Catherina)
Hanson, Ronald G V
Perth 1946/1194
She died in 1972 and is interred at Karrakatta.
In the RAAF file there are letters about his medals written in 1995 from another woman who is his widow.
He died in 1985 and is interred at Karrakatta
As David and Cecilia Hamilton were in Melbourne and if no parental information was known about Cecilia’s parents at the time of the death registration and the coroners inquiry, one assumes that someone finally found their marriage certificate or some such so that her WA family could be informed of her death. I would have thought David Gordon's parents would know her background.
Florence the mother died. and was interred Karrakatta.
GOVER
Florence Eleanor
84 Years 1971 MOUNT HENRY
At the time of the car accident, Cecilia's parents were in their 70's and therefore not really able to take in young children.
As you will know the names of your grandmother's siblings, have you tried to trace them?
Sue
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Thanks Sue!
I have located David and Cecilia’s marriage certificate on the WA BDM and will try and get a copy of that.
As far the the death certificate I’m not sure what type of information they would have for Cecilia.
Thanks for the information on Ronald! I will check out that record!
I have their names, and I know one of her sisters personally as my gran and her kept in touch, one of the brothers I know of has passed but Ihave some information on his children and can get in touch with them, however I know Cecilia was a mystery to them too!
There were twin sisters and they were adopted so wouldn’t really know where to start with tracking them down and if they would even want to be tracked down…
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If any of the siblings of the twin sisters are still alive, they may be able to find them. Do a Google search of adoption resource centres in Victoria and see if they are able to assist. Governments now recognise the importance of people affected by adoption knowing their histories.
Post edited to add this link
https://www.vic.gov.au/past-adoption
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Thanks Sue!
I have located David and Cecilia’s marriage certificate on the WA BDM and will try and get a copy of that.
As far the the death certificate I’m not sure what type of information they would have for Cecilia.
The Death Certificate will possibly not hold much more information than we currently have, but is a valuable part of your research none the less. As her parental info is not on the index, it won't be on the DC.
From the Vic BMD website, it can be downloaded immediately after payment, Search then click order image.
Just letting you know also that the third wife of the children's (half ???) Uncle Ronald George Hanson
was Marjorie Florence and she died aged 100 in 2017, They were together under the surname Hanson from at least 1977 according to the WA E.Rolls.
https://portal.mcb.wa.gov.au/name-search/ns-detail/?id=3243f3d8-ec1c-ec11-b6e7-00224814cbf0
It would be a very wonderful if the adopted twins could be located through the channels suggested above. ;D
But as you say, might be a sensitive matter and contact is not always welcome.
Sue