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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Ruskie on Thursday 21 October 10 00:46 BST (UK)
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Welcome to Part 8 everyone. :)
The amazing discovery of the mysterious Mrs S(anigear) by avm really stirred up a frenzy at the end of Part 7 and goes to show that you should never give up. I thought we'd tried absolutely everything we could to find Mrs Skirricker but there is often another angle of approach to solve these mysteries, as found by avm.
I hope we'll manage to do the same in Part 8 with our other favourite character Ann Fox. ;)
Links to our previous posts:
Part 1:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,457330.0.html
Part 2:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,459757.0.html
On page one of Part 2 is a recap of our discoveries and a timeline.
Part 3:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,464660.0.html
Part 4:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,469736.0.html
Part 5:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,472362.0.html
Part 6:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,474726.0.html
Part 7:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,482661.0.html
And Nathaniel's Diary:
http://www.westminster.gov.uk/services/libraries/archives/victorian-clerk/
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PART 8 already??
Good heavens, what a nosey chatty bunch you are. I went under the knife again last Friday and you were still entrenched in Part 7's frenzy, now here we are almost a week later and things are still moving apace.
Keep it up... it's keeping me amused... ;D ;D
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PART 8 already??
Good heavens, what a nosey chatty bunch you are. I went under the knife again last Friday and you were still entrenched in Part 7's frenzy, now here we are almost a week later and things are still moving apace.
Keep it up... it's keeping me amused... ;D ;D
Yes we are. ;D Still going strong!
And ... ouch ... you poor little mite. :(
If you are incapacitated and recovering I hope there'll be a big juicy gossipy entry in Nathaniel's diary today for you to get stuck into to take your mind off your aches and pains. ;)
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Have a funeral to go to this morning that will take my mind of just about most things. :'( :'( :'( Our Charlotte from the YT thread lost Mr Charlotte last week and we say farewell to him this morning.
Promise I will follow up on Nathaniel tonight .... after a few red wines ( pain reduction medication you understand ;D ;D )
Have tried in vain to find that dratted Ann ( sorry, I am sure that she was a lovely lady, but did she have to be so difficult to find. Perhaps we should ask her to change her name to Hepzibah Throckmorton Jones... can't be many of them around).
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Oh dear - that's sad - so you have a difficult day ahead .... :( You'll have earned your wines.
I just checked and it's not a juicy diary entry today and something we've already done some work on (the demolition of the rectory at St James Westminster) :-\
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PART 8 ....Oh My ;D
Karen ...my thoughts are with you!!!!
Ann is the bane of my life!!! Mrs Sanigear was Carole's LOL
deb
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. Perhaps we should ask her to change her name to Hepzibah Throckmorton Jones... can't be many of them around).
or Prunella Pumpernickel FOX
;D ;D ;D
I am sure we have found her in 1861 in Essex ....alas...we may never know unless Nat gives us a clue!
deb
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Seems Mrs. S's portrait falls into the hands of Mr. Wilkinson, Clinton Street, Nottingham after her death
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0a4v/
Also notes George & Mary Bunyan have 11 children and gives pedigree info.
Source: S.F. Creswell, Notes & Queries, Vol.9 (Jan 28, 1860)
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Mr. Wilkinson appears to have been the executor of her will.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0a4w/
A nice description of Mrs. S. and mention she leaves the painting to "the meeting"
Pilgrimages to English shrines, ...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0a4x/
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Hmmmm ...... I've got a copy of Mary Sanigear's will and John Wilkinson was one of the witnesses and was the trustee. The executor was her nephew William Peglar Sanigear. The painting wasn't mentioned in the will. After named gifts of money to her sister Amelia Bradley and her son Thomas, W P Sanigear and another niece Elizabeth Ireland (I think it's Ireland, the the 1850s the handwriting used for PCC wills had got so stylized it's virtually unreadable) all the rest and residue was to be divided between the first three.
Hopefull she gave the painting away before her death or they came to some arrangement about it afterwards, but W P Sanigear was in London (John Bunyan wasn't his ancestor anyway) while Amelia and Thomas were in Derbyshire. Perhaps John Wilkinson simply "appropriated" it ? ???
Carole
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Nice reading Linda...I especially enjoyed the last one, where the visitors were told she had upped and moved - perhaps why she drops out of Nathaniel's diary? A simelar occurance? (maybe his stalking had made her move :P)
Carole, perhaps the painting (not an original according to Linda's last post) was given, before she died. Especially if she maintained the same faith as her ancestor...she would have passed on his picture to likeminded people I'm sure :)
oooh...part 8....yes pleeeease can we have a bit more info on Ann Fox!
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Wow Part 8 already, and I've enjoyed all 140 pages of the posts so far.
Well done on solving the mystery of Mrs Skirriker, although I didn't post a negative response I had looked myself with no success, I certainly wouldn't have got the right name.
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Great to be on part 8!
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On 20 September Nathaniel walked to Edgware and Whitchurch on his usual Sunday walk. Yesterday, I was browsing Google Earth and looking at the attached photographs. One at Whitchurch was clearly the right church although not as good as Drykid's one. Another photo is labeled "Edgware Church" and is indeed St Margaret's, Edgware but is in the wrong place. St Margaret's is near the North Eastern corner of Edgware High Street (aka Edgware Road, Watling Street Etc) and Station Road.
The Old Boot where NB had his Beef and Bread stood in front of the Church on the High Street. A fine old building it was replaced in the Sixties by a bland block of offices & shops, now rather run down.
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Some great finds Linda.
You can always rely on 'Notes and Queries' ;).
Isn't it odd that when we were all trying desperately to find descendants of John Bunyan we found very little regarding his family. Now it seems there is quite a bit out there. How did we miss it all - even without knowing Mrs S's real name? :-\
But at least she is found! Hoorah! ;D
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Aye there is a lot of interesting things in Notes and Queries Ruskie.
(maybe his stalking had made her move :P)
Suspect she was most likely moving closer to family that could help her out. Seems she might have been losing her faculties.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0a5c/
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S.F. (Rev Samuel Francis) Creswell documenting Bunyan decendants in Notes and Queries was educated King's College, London and St. John's College, Cambridge and ordained in 1860. In 1861 he was Vicar of Radford and later rector of Northrepps, Norfolk. 1861 census gives his birth about 1813 Clayworth, Nottinghamshire. Definitely one to visit these older Bunyans, Robert & Mary Sanigear.
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No diary entry again today!!!!
I'm not happy! >:(
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Seems she might have been losing her faculties.
Perhaps that's what her family thought when she told them a handsome young man was paying her a lot of attention. :D
Didy
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I'll have to see if I can trace this Elizabeth Ireland to see if she was in Notts - although she recieved less in Mary's will than the others - otherwise her relatives were either in London or Derbyshire. Perhaps she just wanted to move back to an area she knew from childhood ???
Carole
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Seems she might have been losing her faculties.
Perhaps that's what her family thought when she told them a handsome young man was paying her a lot of attention. :D
Didy
;D ;D ;D
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I'll have to see if I can trace this Elizabeth Ireland to see if she was in Notts - although she recieved less in Mary's will than the others - otherwise her relatives were either in London or Derbyshire. Perhaps she just wanted to move back to an area she knew from childhood ???
Carole
Perhaps she had good friends there?
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In this Notes and Queries excerpt that waiteohman posted upthread at http://www.rootschat.com/links/0a4v/ there are lots of mentions of Nottingham in relation to the Bunyan family. I'd think it was quite likely that there was a relative still there in the 1850s.
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In this Notes and Queries excerpt that waiteohman posted upthread at http://www.rootschat.com/links/0a4v/ there are lots of mentions of Nottingham in relation to the Bunyan family. I'd think it was quite likely that there was a relative still there in the 1850s.
But there are no mention of any in her will I'm also having trouble finding an Eliza/Elizabeth Ireland who might fit. Was she a Bunyan or a Sanigear ???
Carole
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Maybe by then we'd be looking at descendents of the people mentioned in the N&Q article? I haven't followed any of them through, so I don't know what their names might be. Where have you looked for Eliza/Elizabeth Ireland so far? (Unless it's too long a list to enumerate!)
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I'm amused by Nat's reference to the clock coming back from the "doctor's" today. I think he's become quite attached to it after all the struggling over it.
Nice work everyone btw on locating Mrs Skirricker, although I'm still struggling to see how "Sanigear" could end up as "Skirricker" (not disputing the conclusion though.) I know it was suggested previously that the name might have been transcribed wrongly, but it's hard to see how this could cause such a large error. I guess the "chinese whispers" theory is the best one.
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Today's entry is hilarious:
"Brought black Dutch clock from the doctor’s in Goodge Street and fixed it in room."
What is going on? ;D
Last Friday he took the clock to the clockmaker to get fixed. ;D
Now he's brought it home and fixed it himself! :-\
;D
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Does he mean fixed it on the wall?
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Does he mean fixed it on the wall?
Yes, I suppose he may mean that, but isn't it Ann's clock? ;D
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.... I'm still struggling to see how "Sanigear" could end up as "Skirricker" (not disputing the conclusion though.) I know it was suggested previously that the name might have been transcribed wrongly, but it's hard to see how this could cause such a large error. I guess the "chinese whispers" theory is the best one.
Oddly enough I was just thinking about this a little earlier.
Maybe rather than being pronounced 'San E Gear' it was pronounced 'San A ga' which may have been misheard as 'San A Ka'? :-\ This is slightly closer to Skirricker. Maybe? ;)
Nat originally spelled it a different way. Can anyone remember what it was? Sirricker or something? :-\
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Nat first calls her Mrs Skillicker (15th March), but after that it's usually Skirricker.
Didy
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Hello everyone,
We are a family called Bryceson who have lived in London for generations. This is an intriguing thing for us to find and I have tried to read up on the posts although it seems there are an awful lot of them! I wanted to introduce myself and to say how fascinated we are to find all this interest in Brycesons. I know very little about wider family trees and I'm wondering what the connection between us and Nathaniel might be. I'm sure there may well be connections as Bryceson is a very unusual name!
With best wishes to you all,
Andrew Bryceson.
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Blimey This tread is a thrill a minute. !!!
Andrew. Hang in there for a minute, there are probably several people wanting to talk to you. Could you give us a name of a Bryceson ancestor (not living please) just so we can work out who you are?
Welcome to RootsChat. :)
Paul
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oooh! Welcome to Rootschat Andrew....it would be amazing if you are related to Steven...? Or perhaps the other Bryceson family that was living in London at the time?
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Welcome to rootschat Andrew.
The subject of these threads is Nathaniel Bryceson who was actually the illegitimate son of Nathaniel White and Mary Bryceson nee Sheppard.
Bryceson was the surname of Mary's first husband. So although we are very interested in the Bryceson connection, Brycesons are not actually blood relatives of Nathaniel.
There is an awful lot to read through on these threads, but there is a summary and timeline a little further down the page here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,459757.0.html
Both need updating but it will give you an idea of what we are discussing and discovering.
Bryceson appears to be a Scottish surname. I think we found out a bit more about some of the Scottish Brycesons but I'm not sure where it's hidden. Maybe one of the others will remember. ;)
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I notice that Nathaniel has been busy with his penknife yet again. ;D
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Little vandal!!! I wonder if he knows he shouldn't do it, but does it anyway, or whether he thinks he's contributing to posterity...he's so interested in gravestones and inscriptions, maybe he wants to live on after he's gone...if that's the case he'd be thrilled to know how we're all talking about him 165 years later!
Hello Andrew, good to see you! I hope people can work out how your Bryceson family fit in...they love a challenge!
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he's so interested in gravestones and inscriptions, maybe he wants to live on after he's gone...if that's the case he'd be thrilled to know how we're all talking about him 165 years later!
That's exactly what I was thinking this morning. I'm not convinced he'd appreciate us all discussing his sex life in such minute detail, but otherwise I'm sure the idea of all this discussion and speculation about the other apsects of his life would please him enormously. It'd certainly please me, anyway.
And welcome Andrew :) Not that I've been here that long myself...
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Hello and welcome Andrew :)
The name Bryceson is definitely Scottish and unusual in London. I think but haven't been able to prove it, that John Bryceson who was the husband of Nathaniel's mother Mary Shephard, although not his father as he died two years before Nathaniel was born, was related to Henry Bryceson who made organs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Bryceson, either a brother or cousin.
How far back can you trace your family? Because there are so few Brycesons in London in the C19th once you get back to about 1900 they are quite easy to trace in the census returns. The family originated in Perth Scotland.
Carole
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Hi Andrew, I am a descendant of Nathaniel via his youngest son Henry, but he had two others Nathaniel and John. It would be super if you were descended from one of these (and me)! Peace, Steven.
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Welcome to rootschat Andrew.
Carole would you be able to put a snippet up of the will with Ireland name? You've got me curious on who she would to our Mrs. S too.
Linda
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There is a John Bunyan connection with Dr. Johnson.
This could be a good candidate. Elizabeth Ireland grandaughter to Joseph & Charlotte Johnson in 1851 living in Nottingham. Elizabeth born Nottinham and age 15 then. Interestingly, Mrs. S's death registered in Nottingham and N.B. had an interest in Dr. Johnson, buying one of his books and visiting a place associated by the author.
Linda
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Today's entry is fabulous! Nathaniel is hounding poor old Granny Sheppard for details of her family history! I think that will please us all! ;D
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Today's entry is fabulous! Nathaniel is hounding poor old Granny Sheppard for details of her family history! I think that will please us all! ;D
Yeah it was great. I wonder if - unbeknownst to Nat - Granny Sheppard got tired of the interrogation because she knows the truth about Nat's lineage and therefore answering without saying the wrong thing was getting awkward for her. But it's cool that he clearly had the bug for chasing his own roots too.
The drowned puppy added a little pathos too :'(
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Today's entry is fabulous! Nathaniel is hounding poor old Granny Sheppard for details of her family history! I think that will please us all! ;D
Yeah it was great. I wonder if - unbeknownst to Nat - Granny Sheppard got tired of the interrogation because she knows the truth about Nat's lineage and therefore answering without saying the wrong thing was getting awkward for her. But it's cool that he clearly had the bug for chasing his own roots too.
As Nathaniel is obvioulsy interested in his ancestors, I did wonder if he asked questions about the Brycesons .... I'd love to have been a fly on the wall. I suppose it is possible that the reason for Granny Sheppard getting narky may have been due to Nat's probing questions about his (real or supposed) father. ;) If only Nat had gone into more detial ...
It's also pretty clear that Nathaniel likes animals as he makes a point of mentioning all these snippets about cats, dogs and horses. He must have been a nice lad. :)
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What a shame he didn't write down what Granny Sheppard told him in the diary :( I'm sure he must have thought he really was a Bryceson - why would he think otherwise unless someone told him?
This is the extract from Mary Sanigear's will. I'm sure it's Eliza Ireland, but working out which Eliza Ireland it is is the problem.
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/hoddworld/MarySanigearPCCwill1857.jpg)
Carole
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While reading the interesting story of John Bunyan and his descendants in waiteohman's second link at #8 of this thread, I was struck by this excerpt:
The vault beneath the tomb that bears his name, is that of his friend Strudwick, a grocer on Snow Hill, at whose house, after his journey to Reading, he was taken ill - and perhaps he died there.
From Nat's entry for 15th March:
After dinner took walk alone to Bunhill Fields Burial Ground to see (not the first time) the tomb of John Bunyan. While there fell into conversation with an elderly lady who came on the same errand, and from her learnt that there is now living an old lady, a descendant and the last remaining of that great man
Perhaps Nat saw the name Strudwick on the tomb, or heard it from the old lady he met there, and confused it in his mind with the descendant's name, turning it into Skirricker???
Didy
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Perhaps Nat saw the name Strudwick on the tomb, or heard it from the old lady he met there, and confused it in his mind with the descendant's name, turning it into Skirricker???
Didy
Um, not sure about this Didy ... :-\ I can't see Nathaniel getting too confused about anything. ;)
I think it's more likely that the old lady Nathaniel met told him the wrong surname or was unsure of it herself.
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I see a pattern emerging with Nathaniel's diary entries.
What is happening in his life on Monday and Tuesday that he either has no time, has nothing to say, or can't be bothered writing his diary?
It is most inconsiderate of him to keep us all waiting like this. ;)
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Thanks Carole it looks like Ireland to me too.
I did like the Elizabeth Ireland with the Johnson's as Frances Brown, a known Bunyan descendant married a William Johnson. Age 15 too young though.
We do know Rev. Samuel Francis Creswell visited Mrs. S and he was the Vicor of Radford. Knowing this I would definitely say Mrs S. went to live with her niece in Lenton.
1851 Reg District: Radford, Sub-Reg District Lenton
89 Wollaton St.
John Ireland head 60 lace maker Willoughby, <Waterless?>, Leichester
Elizabeth Ireland wife 60 Lenton, Nottinghamshire
Emma granddaughter 6 Lenton
+ 3 lodgers
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Anyone able to explain today's reference to people using "links" as a result of the fog? I did try googling, but the problem is that on 99.99% of web pages the term "links" is only used in the context of links to other web pages, which makes trying to find anything relevant a little frustrating.
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I asssumed it meant that people were linking arms to find their way :-\
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I asssumed it meant that people were linking arms to find their way :-\
I never even thought about that. I guess it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do in the circumstances, although if that's the case then the way Nat worded it is confusing, since effectively it's the other person you're using rather than the link itself. But maybe that was how they said it back then. It's been a long time since the fog here was serious enough to need to discuss such things (although as with the frozen Thames, Id love to go back just once and experience it for myself.)
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Found this. If you look for links they seem to be some type of torch.
http://www.victorianlondon.org/weather/fog.htm
kaysii
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Found this. If you look for links they seem to be some type of torch.
http://www.victorianlondon.org/weather/fog.htm
kaysii
Ahh that helped a lot thanks. Although if I'm reading that correctly the "link" may not be the torch itself so much as the service offered by the link boy, who will guide you home with his torch for a small fee. There's a couple of pics on there too:
(http://www.victorianlondon.org/punch/spring-55-fog.gif)
(http://www.victorianlondon.org/punch/fog.gif)
Actually I should read that whole page when I get a chance. The extract from "Cruickshank's Comic Almanack" - second one down - is amusing :)
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Great London Smog
During the 19th century, the increase in industrialisation in the major cities of Britain gave rise to a dramatic increase in air pollution. Throughout the autumn months, during periods of calm, smoke particles from industrial plumes would mix with fog giving it a yellow-black colour. Such smogs, as they became known, often settled over cities for many days. Wind speeds would be low at these times causing the smog to stagnate, with pollution levels increasing near ground level. London became quite famous for its smogs, and many visitors came to see the capital in the fog.
From http://www.ace.mmu.ac.uk/eae/air_quality/older/Great_London_Smog.html
The Clean Air Acts spoiled all the fun!
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There is a good description of the origin and use of links here, including some pictures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link-boy
Didy
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Even in the 1950s & 60s driving in London at this time of year could be a bit difficult. Bus conductors sometimes had to walk in front with a torch (electric version) to guide the driver. Even then my wife once had to redirect a bus which had taken the wrong turning.
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There is a good description of the origin and use of links here, including some pictures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link-boy
Didy
Ah thanks again; that pretty much covers all aspects of it.
So it seems that link boys were a standard night time feature anyway due to the lack of proper street lighting, what makes it noteworthy in Nat's entry is that the fog was so bad that on this occasion they were employed in the daytime too.
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I love learning about all these things through Nathaniel's diary. :)
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It's very disappointing that there is yet another day with no diary entry. :(
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:-\ 8)
I'm with you Ruskie! ... I also loved the info on the London Fog and Smoke aka Smog!
the Link Boys were fascinating!!!!!! i can't imagine children of that age working today... I have a 16 and 12 year old .... getting them to to make their beds is HUGE undertaking!
deb
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Yes, Deb, but think what it was like out there in the fog knowing your patch and being able to make some money by guiding those blundering adults! I used to quite like th fog, but then I was a healthy youngster, not asthmatic or bronchitic. Thousands of elderly people died in London even in the 1950s, until we had smokeless fuel instead of coal.
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I have long wondered if anyone has been bored enough to count how many of the (240?) posts have been made so far, and how many are left in the next 40 or so days.
The picture of the two link boys from the original web page has them saying to the man give us a shilling or we will singe your beard.
Well, there is still something similar going on in modern times. My son had read, and experienced himself, something that goes on in Liverpool, near the football ground. On match days 10 year olds (in the case of my sons experience) will ride up to you on a bike once you have parked your car on the streets. (Parking is hard to come by). You will then be offered the service, for five pounds, of their "looking after your car" whilst its parked there.
innovative.
steve
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The 30th - I bet Nat and Ann are regretting exchanging her original clock for one I assume they hoped was better ;D
Its interesting to see Mrs Kennington has a kitchen. I always wonder reading the census in buildings of multiple occupancy, just how many rooms people actually lived in.
Carole
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I have long wondered if anyone has been bored enough to count how many of the (240?) posts have been made so far, and how many are left in the next 40 or so days.
The picture of the two link boys from the original web page has them saying to the man give us a shilling or we will singe your beard.
Well, there is still something similar going on in modern times. My son had read, and experienced himself, something that goes on in Liverpool, near the football ground. On match days 10 year olds (in the case of my sons experience) will ride up to you on a bike once you have parked your car on the streets. (Parking is hard to come by). You will then be offered the service, for five pounds, of their "looking after your car" whilst its parked there.
innovative.
steve
Oh no Steve - don't say that we only have 40 odd days left! :'(
You gotta love those enterprising little Skallies! A great service they offered your son though - five quid to take care of your car? Bargain! ;) ;D
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The 30th - I bet Nat and Ann are regretting exchanging her original clock for one I assume they hoped was better ;D
Its interesting to see Mrs Kennington has a kitchen. I always wonder reading the census in buildings of multiple occupancy, just how many rooms people actually lived in.
Carole
This never ending clock saga is making me laugh. ;D Poor old Nat - he must be so fed up with that thing by now. Wasn't it his suggestion that Ann swap her original clock for this Dutch one? He probably feels guilty so is persevering in trying to fix the thing. He is persistent and trying very hard to make it right - I feel a bit sorry for the poor lad.
Yes, it is interesting that Mrs Kennington has a kitchen. I wonder if it's only used by those living at 27 Stephen Street or if residents of other 'rooms' also use it?
We have Ann in the 1841 and 1851 censuses:
1841
St Pancras
STEPHEN STREET
Lots of people all living in seperate "rooms?"
including:
SOPHIA OLLIVE 50 DRESSMAKER Y
ANN FOX 30 F S , yes
1851 (this is 5 years after Nathaniel wrote his diary!)
27 Stephen Street
Cock Family
John BURNS
Mary Elizth KENNINGTON, unm 63, mangling , b Middlesex, St James, Picadilly
ANN FOX, 49, Charwoman, b Middlesex, Queen St
Can anyone remember if we found Mrs Kennington in the 1841 census? (I know that Mrs Burns died earlier in 1846).
As Ann and Mrs Kennington appear to be living with the Cock family and John Burns, I wonder why Nat says it's Mrs Kennington's kitchen rather than Mr or Mrs Cock's kitchen? Or perhaps the Cock family didn't live there in 1846? :-\ I'll have another look at the census entry ... :)
Added: I've just checked and they're enumerated oddly ... :-\
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Hi
Didn't Nat and Ann get 'up to wicked tricks' in Mrs Kennington's kitchen early on in the diary?
I don't think we found Mrs K in 1841
deb
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Sunday 26th April 1846
From thence went to see Ann at Mrs Kennington in Stephen Street. There regaled ourselves a little unlawfully …. and kitchen. Supped there - bread, cheese and ale, and returned home afterward.
Where did the "wicked tricks' happen?
deb
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You've got a good memory Deb - I'd completely forgotten about that.
oooooo! What are the missing words? How frustrating! It looks like Mrs Kennington is either out a lot or a party to their affair. And it sounds like it is Mrs Kennington's place rather than Ann's. (On the 1851 it looks like Ann is a "lodger").
If the word "and" was missing I would guess that they regaled themselves unlawfully in the kitchen, but those missing words are sending the imagination into overdrive. Maybe the missing words could be something like ... "in the parlor, the bedroom" ... :o...Also .... would it have been "unlawful"? :-\ Added later ... Ignore this. Deb has cracked it! See her reply below. ;D
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As an aside, I thought it was nice that Ann bought Nathaniel a silk handkerchief to thank him for fixing his clock. :-*
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If the word "and" was missing I would guess that they regaled themselves unlawfully in the kitchen, but those missing words are sending the imagination into overdrive. Maybe the missing words could be something like ... "in the parlor, the bedroom" ... :o
...Also .... would it have been "unlawful"? :-\
Or the sentence could read :
There regaled ourselves a little unlawfully by swinging from the chandeliers in the parlour and kitchen. ;D
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Things are really cooking ;D in the kitchen.
Can anyone remember if we found Mrs Kennington in the 1841 census? (I know that Mrs Burns died earlier in 1846).
If you look closely at this one it could be a transcription error for Mary Elizth Kenington. I suggested it earlier and think it a good possibility:
Mary Elizabeth living at Homer Row, Marylebone. 55 years, born Mdx and living alone marked ind (independent). Indexed as Sunington, looks like Senington.
I don't see variations of Sunington / Senington on the 1851 census nor a death entry between 1841-1851.
Linda
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If the word "and" was missing I would guess that they regaled themselves unlawfully in the kitchen, but those missing words are sending the imagination into overdrive. Maybe the missing words could be something like ... "in the parlor, the bedroom" ... :o
...Also .... would it have been "unlawful"? :-\
Or the sentence could read :
There regaled ourselves a little unlawfully by swinging from the chandeliers in the parlour and kitchen. ;D
Trust you Deb! ;D
I like your interpreation much better than mine. ;)
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Things are really cooking ;D in the kitchen.
Can anyone remember if we found Mrs Kennington in the 1841 census? (I know that Mrs Burns died earlier in 1846).
If you look closely at this one it could be a transcription error for Mary Elizth Kenington. I suggested it earlier and think it a good possibility:
Mary Elizabeth living at Homer Row, Marylebone. 55 years, born Mdx and living alone marked ind (independent). Indexed as Sunington, looks like Senington.
I don't see variations of Sunington / Senington on the 1851 census nor a death entry between 1841-1851.
Linda
I had a look last night but saw nothing promising so I think that's a real possibility. I'll see if I can locate Homer Row and maybe try to locate her in 1861 or a death before then ....
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I was heartened to see the long diary entry for today (Saturday)! ;D It's really interesting historically but my favourite part concerned Richmond Buildings:
The gallery or bridge in Richmond Mews, Richmond Buildings, back of our house, which … from the pianoforte maker to the premises opposite, has been roofed over with glass. I think we found the pianoforte maker some months ago ... :-\
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Or the sentence could read :
There regaled ourselves a little unlawfully by swinging from the chandeliers in the parlour and kitchen. ;D
Snort
Giggle
Only you could come up with that Deb... ;D
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Another "had Ann up in the evening" entry today; I get the impression Nat has gotten bored with describing his sex life blow-by-blow in shorthand. I was going to suggest that maybe he was finding it a pain to keep translating into shorthand, but then again the whole point of shorthand is that it's supposed to be quicker to write down than longhand. So theoretically it should make it easier not harder to write more.
Otherwise another busy Sunday for him.
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Another anomaly in that he mentions being 'stood up' by Ann in longhand rather than shorthand, whereas their meetings later are shorthand.
It makes you wonder if he forgets or can't be bothered to write every mention of Ann in shorthand, or does he feel comfortable to write about their relationship as a platonic friendship.
Surely some of the people close to Nathaniel must have their suspicions especially Granny Sheppard who's caught Ann sneaking around Richmond Buildings a couple of times now.
I think Nat only adds more detail to his Sunday evening dalliances with Ann, when more 'progress' is made otherwise I think we can assume it's 'more of the same'. ;)
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regarding the kitchen, I saw it (or would like to) see it as similar to the "Postman always rings twice" scene in the Jack Nicholson version.
;)
Except they dont here, back in their van and off in seconds.
"postman dont give a poop" doesnt read well as a title though :)
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regarding the kitchen, I saw it (or would like to) see it as similar to the "Postman always rings twice" scene in the Jack Nicholson version.
;)
Except they dont here, back in their van and off in seconds.
"postman dont give a poop" doesnt read well as a title though :)
Um ... :-\ I've not seen the film but know of it .... :-\
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Today's entry:
On making up money tonight, I found deficient one shilling, which I made good at my own expense. I like not this sort of thing (since rectified).
Nathaniel ... crossing all the t's and dotting all the i's. ;D
These little comments really give an insight into his personality. Funny lad.
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I think it just shows he's honest.
BTW - if anyone from the Westminster Archives is reading, you forgot to put October in the past entries. I still havnt seen 31st Oct :)
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Same here Steve, I missed the last couple of days of October too!
Heather
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I think it just shows he's honest.
Yes, of course, there is that as well. :) And he does disapprove of all the Leas dodgy dealings.
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BTW - if anyone from the Westminster Archives is reading, you forgot to put October in the past entries. I still havnt seen 31st Oct :)
Must be a glitch ...
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I love Nathaniel's phraseology in today's entry - 'for to assist" and "for to stop". :)
"Old Mrs Lea from Barnet"? I'll have to go back to find out her name. ;) I suppose Nathaniel got his shilling back in a roundabout kind of way.
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That must be Lydia Lea Charles Lea seniors widow and granny Sheppard's sister-in-law (I think that's right) Lydia Lea of Barnet was buried at Kensal Green 16 Sept 1854 aged 82. Her husband had been buried there in 1838.
I'd almost forgotten about Nat's poor mother :(
Carole
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morning all ... 6:40 am here
I was just having coffee outside and for some reason I thought of NB and then I wondered how his mum was doing, as he had not mentioned her or Matthew in a while.
How strange that I come in to see his entry and there is a mention of Mary.
And yes ... Old Mrs. Lea is Lydia Wood who was present as a witness to Mary's marriage
deb
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October entries are now visible on the Diary site ;D
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Where is everybody ? I know I don't say a lot (well in the virtual world - lol) but I;m missing you !
Nesta
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Hellooo,
I was amused by more of NB's tortured prose again today :D
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:) Hi Nesta...et al! ;D
So Old mrs Lea was coming to visit for a few days it seems...and Dame (if you please!) Granny goes to visit - perhaps to thank her for the shilling for her daughter. I wonder why Mrs Lea didn't visit Granny/Mary herself...
wonder why NB refers to her as Dame? has he done that before?
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Hello all :)
I thought it read like the poor relation being allowed to visit just for a day ! Did he take granny to tea or did she have to go home first I wonder .
N
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Hi
I wonder why Nat refers to Mrs Lea as such and not as Aunt Lea or Aunt Lydia? She is after all the wife of Granny Sheppard's brother, Charles! Maybe that was the way you did things in those days!
was there no Guy Fawkes celebratons in those days??
deb
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Where is everybody ? I know I don't say a lot (well in the virtual world - lol) but I;m missing you !
Nesta
Nesta :) ...we are always around but waiting for Nat to take the lead! ;D ;D
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UUUmm! I looked up Guy Fawkes night and found this picture from 1864.
I would assume from that, that it was celebrated in some form in Nats time.
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Hi Deb :)
He is being a bit slow atm - bless
x
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We are all most definitely here Nesta. ;D
Maybe Nat doesn't approve of Guy Fawkes celebrations - he's a fairly conservative lad and make not like the festivities.
And yes Daisy, Nat has referred to Granny Shepard as "Dame" before. ;D I think it's his little joke. I get the feeling she is the matriarch of the family - probably does all the cooking and cleaning for all the families "rooms".
Nat hasn't written about the family for a while except that brief mention of his mother's illness. No random stranger has had a birthday for a while either. ;)
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Where's the diary gone??? Did the entries end already? :'(
Just logged onto the site today, as always, and the page is not found! ???
Did a Google search looking for answers, and found this thread instead. Oh how I wish I'd found it back in January!!! ::)
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Where's the diary gone??? Did the entries end already? :'(
Hmmm it does seem to have vanished. It was there this morning though. I'm sure it's just someone rearranging stuff and it will be back soon. I think the last entry is Dec 12th, so there's definitely a bit more to come between now and then.
Did a Google search looking for answers, and found this thread instead. Oh how I wish I'd found it back in January!!! ::)
Heh well I only found it a month or so ago while googling about the diary, so I had plenty of catching up to do too. But at least you found it in the end :)
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Hi Cousin Britgirl :D :D
How are you? Long time no see!!!!!!!
Glad you found us.... and, of course, Nat!!!!
Deb ;D
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It's all gone, all the Nat stuff, from the Westminster Council website. I suspect it's being rearranged as drykid suggested. Unless someone's hacked the site with the sole aim of removing Nat's diary...maybe a descendent of Ann Fox doesn't want us to know what happens this Sunday!!!!!
I was very sad to hear that Nat cut his middle finger today. I've done that, and it's blummin painful. It's interesting that he went out and bought a single sticking plaster...apparently they didn't come in boxes in those days. Mind you, that probably works quite well as I use up the rectangular ones first, and am always left with all the oddly shaped ones in the box at the end.
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maybe a descendent of Ann Fox doesn't want us to know what happens this Sunday!!!!!
Heh :)
I was very sad to hear that Nat cut his middle finger today. I've done that, and it's blummin painful. It's interesting that he went out and bought a single sticking plaster...apparently they didn't come in boxes in those days. Mind you, that probably works quite well as I use up the rectangular ones first, and am always left with all the oddly shaped ones in the box at the end.
Yeah boxes of assorted plasters are a bit like tins of Quality Street; there's always something left at the end that's of no use to anyone. I'm surprised he didn't try borrowing a "plaster" off Ann, since we already know she has her own supply for strange purposes...
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Hmmm it does seem to have vanished. It was there this morning though.
Well that's a bit more reassuring! I thought the diary had suddenly ended and they'd cleared it out! Like taking down the decorations on Boxing day! ::)
Hi Cousin Deb! :D
All well here and plodding along. ;D
I've just been reading since part 6 and I'm amazed at how in depth it is! Never even occured to me, just reading the diary, that people were busy sorting out all the family lines, and trying to discover the identity of Mrs S!!! :o
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The entire libraries and archives section of Westminster is unavailable, obviously they're dusting the virtual shelves.
There was a series of programmes on the Tv earlier this year called The Victorian Pharmacy and one dealt with the making of plasters. The pharmacist made them up on request, so Nat would have gone in with his injury and said "Make me a plaster for my finger". I'm not sure what Ann would have said when she ordered hers earlier in the year .......... :o
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LOL ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Nesta
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The site is back up now at 19:41GMT.
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that's good news..... I was scared they had lost everything ;D
welcome back Nat!
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On Saturday 14 Nov, Mr Moore's toyshop and the pub next door (The Wheatsheaf) fell down completely, it was reported in the Morning Post. Several people had a very narrow escape but Mr Moore was "totally ruined by the catastrophe". I wonder if Nat will mention this next week.
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Hmmm...anyone know what an office dial is? Some kind of clock?
and why would baked mutton, pots and pudding be an unusual meal? (Can't imagine baked mutton ...blugh! surely couldn't compare to lovely roast lamb anyway!) And a PINT of tea?
His sunday's seem to be getting very mundane :(
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Nat's description of the toyman's house really reminded me of one of the final scenes in Little Dorrit (the TV version, I've never read the book :-[) when Mrs Clenham's house falls down. It was spectacular. Sounds like the same thing happened to poor old Mr Moore. Wiki says that Little Dorrit was written 1855-1857...maybe Dickens based the house collapse on poor old Mr Moore's house. Maybe Mr Dickens was reading the Morning Post on 15 November and noted it down for future use.
I assumed that a dial was a clock...he seems to be fairly interested in them. Today's entry is the Sunday one about his visit to St Mary, Islington and also St Alban's, Wood Street, followed by;
Had Ann up in my room as usual in the evening. At home all the evening reading etc.
Was 'reading' a euphemism for 'hanky panky' in those days??? Or maybe that comes under the 'etc.' :o ;D
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um Aniseed, it didn't cross my mind but perhaps Nat's "reading" did equate to something else. ;)
Daisy, I also wondered why his baked mutton meal might be unusual - I wondered whether it was the time he ate it (rather than what it comprised of) which was unusual? :-\ I believe that mutton used to be a fairly common meat in days gone by but you can't get it today for love nor money. I think it might actually be a very tasty tender meat if it was baked (roasted?) long and slow. I used mutton in an indian curry a few times (I can no longer buy it) - very flavoursome.
I also thought dial to be clock ... but perhaps it could be a sun dial? :-\
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From the 1841 Post Office Directory: Samuel Moginie 17 Brewer Street Pimlico watchmaker - I assume he would clean clocks as well.
I'm surprised Nat says baked mutton is an unusual meal for him, I thought he might have eaten quite a lot of it. Perhaps its the baked bit? perhaps it was more usual for him to have mutton in a stew? I thought a mutton chop was a pretty basic kind of meal for the time ???
Carole
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um Aniseed, it didn't cross my mind but perhaps Nat's "reading" did equate to something else. ; ;D
Well, he put in shorthand that he had Ann up in the evening as usual, and then claimed in longhand that he spent the whole time reading, which I for one don't believe for a minute!!!
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um Aniseed, it didn't cross my mind but perhaps Nat's "reading" did equate to something else. ; ;D
Well, he put in shorthand that he had Ann up in the evening as usual, and then claimed in longhand that he spent the whole time reading, which I for one don't believe for a minute!!!
;D
Maybe he read to take his mind off what happened (or did not happen ;)) between himself and Ann earlier that evening. I'm sure some of those tomes he owns would do the trick. ;D
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or maybe he was reading "Clock Repair, 101, For Dummies"
deb ;D
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Hi Deb! ;D
I've got to go out in about 20 seconds, so I'll elaborate later ... but today's entry made me smile. How precise is Nat with the age of Joseph Richards? ;D I also wonder what kind of auction he and Ann went to. Prints/etchings or books would be my guess. He and Ann do have similar tastes and enjoy the same things --- which is nice. :)
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Ruskie
I found todays entry rather sad... I am thinking that Nat may have even heard Joseph's laboured breathing as he (joseph) was in the "front Attic' of 9 Richmond buildings where he (Nat) was living! Or was Matthew and Mary Ward at that address ...late here ...can't remember.
I also Think Mrs Richmond, the mother, may have given Nat the info re; Joseph's EXACT AGE!
I do find it a little disconcerting that he can go from death to auction rooms/Ann, etc . I know it's a diary entry but it seems "cold" somehow.
diary entry for today:
Monday
This morning at 10 minutes past 4 o’clock Joseph Richards, son of Mrs Richards, lodger in front attic, 9 Richmond Buildings, died of inflammation of the chest, aged 31 years and 5 months and 5 days. Born June 4th 1815. Went in the evening to the Auction Rooms, Leicester Square, for first time with Ann Fox. Albert Prince of Wales completed his 5th year. Lord Mayor’s entry into London: Alderman Sir G Carroll.
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Carroll, Sir George (1784-1860)
banker and Lord Mayor was respected throughout his life as a shrewd man of business. Formerly a member of the Stock Exchange from 1811, he was also until 1826 a government contractor for state lotteries, with offices in Cornhill, Oxford Street and Charing Cross. He was one of the original Directors of the London Joint Stock Bank in 1836, and was for many years a Director of the Bank of Australasia, the Alliance Assurance Company and a member of the Stock Exchange.
Much of his considerable energy was also devoted to the City’s community. He was, for instance, President of St. Bartholomew’s hospital and one of the founders of the Asylum for Idiots. In a civic capacity he served as an Alderman for the Candlewick ward from 1839 until death and as Lord Mayor in 1846-7. He died in Loughton, Essex on 19 December 1860 and was buried at Norwood cemetery a few days later.
From:
http://www.london-city-history.org.uk/biography.htm
Paul
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What on earth are Fire Bells and why would you light them this season? Would they combat the fog?
Paul
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Paul
I googled Fire Bells ...and they look like bells you would jangle to call Fireman to the scene or firehouse ....
What stumped me was that they were lit! :-\ :-\
deb
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Maybe they were lit so they can be located in the dark and/or smog ... :-\
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ummm maybe lighting the fire bells caused the fire in the first place, ;D ;D
Hi Ruskie ;D
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Hi Deb. ;D
I'm hoping for something juicy in Nat's diary entry today, but he's ususally pretty quiet during the week. ;)
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Ruskie
I am thinking about counting the number of entries already viewed and working out how many more to go .... ;D 8)
How many entries were made?
deb :D
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Hope you don't mind me asking but why has the topic been moved to the lighter side after all these months on the common room ?
N
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Yes, just wondering the same thing? Part 8, and now being moved to the lighter side? hmmm ;D
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Ummmm ...didn't notice that ....
Maybe because there is only discussion here and not so much of the genealogical research we were doing in the beginning threads.
deb
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Ummmm ...didn't notice that ....
Maybe because there is only discussion here and not so much of the genealogical research we were doing in the beginning threads.
deb
Could be, and if so, really badly thought out. Anyone looking a tthese threads in the future will find 7 (if not moved) in the original place, this one here, and perhaps when it gets 'researchy' again, moved back to the common room. A bit of a half ---sed decision perhaps?
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I was confused about the fire bells too.
re: today's entry: I believe Sir Walter Scott's Tomb is at Dryburgh (not 'Briberg') Abbey; so something went astray there. Might be Nat's error though rather than a transcription one; maybe it's something he misheard, as the two words do sound very alike.
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I was confused about the fire bells being lit too, but then I thought rather than using 'lit' to mean 'setting fire to the fire bells' he might have meant 'a light was turned on to illuminate the position of the fire bells to make them more easily seen'. Does that make sense?
It seems a shame to move us to the Lighter Side with so little time of the diary left to go. Don't threads here disappear after a while? I should think these threads are so full of information that they'd be good to keep for future reference, and this last part wouldn't take up too much space, just for completeness. Wasn't Mrs Skirricker discovered to be Mrs Sanigear in this part? Or was that the end of the previous part?
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Mrs Sanigear was found at the end of Part 7.
I didn't even notice this had been moved to The Lighter Side - it does seem a bit odd. :-\ I think your reason for this is probably correct Deb.
There are links to all the other "Parts" at the beginning of each new "Part" so presumably anyone following this will be able to find them all? :-\
Maybe if we get delving again they'll move us back to the Common Room. ;)
I'm hoping that some of the research we've done here may help with the planned Westminster Archives publication of Nat's diary - especially if they decide to include some genealogical information (which I think would be very valuable). I'm sure all of us would love to dig in and help where we can if required. I wonder if that will be "heavy" enough for all of these threads to remain in the Common Room? :-\
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I was confused about the fire bells too.
re: today's entry: I believe Sir Walter Scott's Tomb is at Dryburgh (not 'Briberg') Abbey; so something went astray there. Might be Nat's error though rather than a transcription one; maybe it's something he misheard, as the two words do sound very alike.
I read that and thought if he misheard Dryburgh as Briberg no wonder we spent so long chasing Mrs Skirricker ....
I wondered why the thread had been moved to the lighter side as well. It would seem logical to keep all the threads in one place, wouldn't it?
Carole
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Today's entry 12 November:
Mrs Lea senior left Eccleston Wharf for Beauvoir Wharf, Kingsland Road, her eldest son Mr Charles Lea.
Backs up nicely what we have already found out about the Lea family.
Carole
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Am I glad I didn't trip over this thread until yesterday? You bet I am! As a consequence I've been able to access the diary from the start and I couldn't put it down - so to speak!
I've only a couple of observations to make: those trysts in public were hardly likely to raise an eyebrow, other than of police officers suspicious of physical interaction between a young man and a middle-aged woman, but in days when chaperons were usually in attendance to protect virtuous women, I find it hard to believe that Nathaniel would have been so innocent to think his nefarious activities were unknown by relatives living in the same house ..... ::)
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Nathaniel always "has Ann up" on a Sunday afternoon, and it has crossed my mind before now that maybe his Granny and other close relatives were always out on a Sunday afternoon, say at chapel, and he knew the coast would be clear then. On the couple of occasions when Ann has bumped into granny on the stair, I wonder if chapel or whereever finished a few minutes early or Nat and Ann were running a few minutes late :o
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Hmmm - my understanding was Sunday evenings and a close encounter firstly with his mother and Mattie, in July, and not until October with Granny ... :o
Can't wait for Sunday .... ;)
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Please excuse a newcomer if it's already been 'discussed' but has anyone else picked up on the subservient role revealed:
Fri 06-Feb Took walk with Ann in the evening through Clare Market etc. Old Granny Shepard has been at her today about so many small matters.
With all your wonderful findings, it now seems likely that Granny Shepard operated her own mangle, possibly passed on to Mary Kennington, and that Ann Fox was gainfully employed in laundry work initially for Granny and then Mrs Kennington? There is a possible Ann Fox in 1861 at Marylebone Workhouse [RG09 piece 76 folio 115 page 17] recorded as a widow with the occupation of laundress and birthplace Welwyn Hertfordshire. Worthy of more 'sleuthing'?
The diary reveals that Nat and Ann were already 'walking-out' at the beginning of the year. At that stage all the main characters appear to be located in Stephen Street: had Granny got wind of it and could that be why she opted to move into rooms with Nat?
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I'm not sure that there is any evidence that Granny Sheppard was a laundress ???
I like today's entry. This is a real slice of everyday - if funerals and births can be described as everyday- life.
The Mitchell baby had a very odd name Deaines (Deanies on Free BMD) Elizabeth Mitchell d/o George and Eliza of Richmond Buildings. He was described as a plasterer. Baby born 15 November and baptised 19 November 1846 at St Pancras Camden. There is a death registered for a Deanies Elizabeth Mitchell aged 40 St Georges Hanover Square March 1889 , so perhaps she never married. I can't find Joseph Richards burial in the Ancestry records, but perhaps that's because he was buried in St Giles Cemetery not churchyard, and I'm not sure about cemetery records being on Ancestry. His death is registered on FREE BMD.
Carole
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I'm sure I read in one of the threads that Granny Shepard was found in the workhouse in 1851 with occupation 'mangler'?
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I don't recall Nat making any comment about Granny Shepard being a laundress/mangler, however dee-jay, you are correct that she is listed as one in the 1851 census. I suppose it is possible that this is something she took up after 1846 to make ends meet. :-\
1851 census
Tottenham Court
Strand Union Workhouse
Mary Shepard, wid, 80, mangler b Warwickshire, Birmingham
(There are 26 pages of inmates in this institution)
1851 census
27 Stephen Street
Cock Family
John Burns
Mary Elizth Kennington, unm 63, mangling, b Middlesex, St James Piccadilly
Ann Fox, 49, Charwoman, b Middlesex, Queen St
Nov 20th 1851
Parish of St Pancras
Mary Shepard buried, age 80, abode: Infirmary
There does seem to be some manglers within the circle of friends/family, so I would say any lead on Ann Fox would be worth chasing up. :) I would think that many of these women's occupations would be interchangable eg charwoman/mangler? Also thinking about a couple of the gifts that Ann gave Nat - a handkerchief for example, may have been pilfered from the laundry basket. Jumping to conclusions here of course, but stranger things have happened. ;)
I also loved Nat's 'Sunday' entry - with the precise details about the coffin etc.
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TODAY'S ENTRY!!!! :o
What a revelation!
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agghhhh! Haven't been receiving notifications, so missed out on loads I see...off to see today's entry Ruskie!
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I am off to bed now...but Oh MY!!!
What a delightful, and informative entry...and.. and...it's hilarious! Is he showing dry wit, declaring himself slightly insane??? I can't stop chuckling!
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Hi everyone
I too, loved today's entry .... although I had a moment :-X when he told us of the black cat's feasting ...bletch! :-X :-X
What the heck is a Knacker??
Nat ..."out of his mind " ...well I had no idea ;D ;D ;D 8)
Love it!!!!!
this is one of the best entries of the diary:
Granny Shepard, whilst out in the Buildings, was stopped by a young woman who asked her who was buried from No 9 yesterday, and on being told a young man, “What?” says she, “that young man that lived in the garret that was out of his mind” and, on being told such was not the case, she looked amazed and said “Oh, but he was a little out of his mind, I am sure”. Whom she means is none other than myself, who till last May lived in the garret and certainly the only one in the house who shows any symptoms of insanity. Thus the neighbours suppose me to be dead and buried, whereas here I am well and hearty.
;D ;D deb
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What the heck is a Knacker??
Usually a buyer of horses and cattle for slaughter at the end of their useful life, often used in context 'only fit for the knacker's yard'.
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... who till last May lived in the garret ...
This touches on something else I was wondering (and having such a bad memory I thought it may have been mentioned in the diary but I'd forgotten) and that is: "Where did Nathaniel live before he moved into Richmond Buildings earlier in the year?" And the answer appears to be: "upstairs in Richmond Buildings". I wonder if this lends any weight to the theory that in the 1841 census there is a possible sighting of Nathaniel either living with, or visiting, the Vaggs also in Richmond Buildings?
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Richard VAGG appears to have married Catherine TOPLISS 2Q 1838 8)
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Richard VAGG appears to have married Catherine TOPLISS 2Q 1838 8)
Good find dee-jay. I think I had a half hearted look for the couple ages ago but couldn't find their marriage. Where did the marriage take place? Also, I couldn't find any children born to the Vaggs, and definitely no Nathaniel. There are records missing for the area so this is all just guesswork (but fun ;))
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I found that on the FreeBMD site but I've just spotted a marriage of Richard VAGG to Eliza PECK in 1827 at Westminster St James and the burial of an Eliza VAGG in 1833 at Westminster, so it could have been a second marriage for either or both Richard VAGG & Catherine TOPLISS in Regn District St Martin 1 143.
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I thought we knew that Nathaniel lived in other rooms in Richmond Buildings. Didn't he live with his mother and Matt...then the Marshall family moved, and him and Granny Shephard took over their rooms?
I wonder who WAS buried then, that this woman was referring to!!
Added: By the way, welcome dee-jay...always great to have fresh eyes looking over something! Maybe you'll find Ann Fox for us, like avm found Mrs SKirriker! 8) ;D ;D ;D
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If you were in a workhouse, by definition you would be expected to work, and that would it not, possibly be something like a mangler? It doesnt mean thats what she did before.
I think todayts entry re the horse and madness is my favourite so far :)
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George Lea has just bought a one eyed horse and now another horse has died - you can see why his business is in trouble.
It is sad that Granny Shepard spent her last days in the Workhouse Infirmary. I can't help feeling that her life went downwards and she was born in better circumstances. I also can't help wondering if Nat rather abandoned her at the end. :(
Carole
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certainly the only one in the house who shows any symptoms of insanity
I just love his humour ;D
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If you were in a workhouse, by definition you would be expected to work, .....
Only if you were fit. Granny died in the Infirmary part of the workhouse. :'(
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I loved today's entry. Easily the best I've read so far (I haven't caught up with all of them). As I was reading, his interest in the insides of the horse, noting that the cat ate the remains, carving his initials into the privy, I was thinking that he really is a very little bit odd, and then the comment from the young woman, and his slight oddity owned up to by Nat himself. Brilliant!
Daisy Loo, it was Joseph Richards who was buried the day before. It's detailed in yesterday's entry. (If that's what you meant, I might have misunderstood, if so apologies!)
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I thought we knew that Nathaniel lived in other rooms in Richmond Buildings. Didn't he live with his mother and Matt...then the Marshall family moved, and him and Granny Shephard took over their rooms?
Yes, I remember that Nat and Granny Shepard moved into the Marshall's rooms in Richmond Buildings, but I can't remember where they were before that. Didn't Granny Shepard live in Stephen Street? Matthew Ward is in Richmond Buildings in 1841, but mother Mary hasn't been found.
Help me remember please. ;D
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About today's grissly entry .... would a cat eat a horse? :P
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Hi Ruskie :D
I think Granny and son, John were living together in 1841 ...will try to find summary LOL
hi everyone
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Hi Deb!
Found it:
1841 census
Mary Bryceson has not been found
1841 census
Richmond Buildings
Matthew Ward 56 tailor Y
1841 census
Stephen St, St Pancras
Sophia Ollive 50 Dressmaker Y
Ann Fox 30 FS Y
1841 census
Stephen Street
Mary Sheppard 73 N (Granny Shepard)
John Sheppard 35 stone mason Y (Uncle John)
Joseph Lloyd 20
Elizabeth Lloyd 25
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In 1841
STEPHEN STREET
Mary Sheppard 73 n ...... GRANNY SHEPHERD
John Sheppard 35 stone mason Y ....this is the uncle NB was living with in 1851
Joseph Lloyd 20
Elizabeth Lloyd 25
ANN FOX:
1841
St Pancras
STEPHEN STREET
Lots of people all living in seperate "rooms?"
including:
SOPHIA OLLIVE 50 DRESSMAKER Y
ANN FOX 30 F S , yes
(refer to diary and mention of Mrs. Olive)
1851
27 Stephen Street
Cock Family
John BURNS
Mary Elizth KENNINGTON, unm 63, mangling , b Middlesex, St James, Picadilly
ANN FOX, 49, Charwoman, b Middlesex, Queen St
Nathaniel's step father Matthew Ward:
1841
Richmond Buildings
HO107/730/49/40
Matthew Ward 56 Tailor Y
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SNAP!!! ;D
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;D
So what to make of the fact that Nathaniel lived in the garret in Richmond Buildings before moving to the room vacated by the Marshalls? This has just opened up more questions .... ;)
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Maybe the Vaggs hid him there ;D
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It is sad that Granny Shepard spent her last days in the Workhouse Infirmary. I can't help feeling that her life went downwards and she was born in better circumstances. I also can't help wondering if Nat rather abandoned her at the end. :(
Carole
Gee not sure Carole. A 25 year old lad looking after his 80 year old Granny? That would have been a hard ask ... :-\ We don't know about her health/ailments - it may have been beyond Nat to take care of her ... :-\
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Yes I can see the evil Vaggs imprisoning the damsel Nathaniel in the garret. ;D
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I wonder if we can determine which of the rooms in Richmond Buildings the Vaggs lived in? Is there anyone listed as living in the garret in any census?
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Here are the Vaggs in 1841 ...
Possible for NB in 1841: (this is also just a couple pages before we find Matthew Ward ,…his soon to be step-dad)
Richmond buildings
Richard VAGG, Tailor BIC
Catherine Vagg.
NATHANIEL " , 13
NO other record of a Nathaniel Vagg born circa 1827.
Would they have been on the top floor ? Was Nat alone in the garret or were the Vaggs living there too?
hummmm This is 1841 though , so maybe Nat was relegated there as there was no room at #9
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Is a garret the same as an attic?
It's hard to say whereabouts in Richmond Buildings each family lived when the address is simply Richmond Buildings. Would the enumerator have started at the top of the building or the bottom, or perhaps there was no order to it?
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It's the room under the roof - like under the gables.
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Thanks snowyw. :)
And there was this on Sunday:
A birth also took place in our house, first floor back room: the wife of Mr George Mitchell, bricklayer, was delivered of a daughter this morning at 11 o’clock. The husband during his wife’s confinement takes his rest in the bed occupied by Uncle John Sheppard (back attic).
Attic?
Garret?
???
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If Matthew Ward was always at # 9 can we work out the Vaggs number somehow? I would assume the enumerator would start at # 1 :-\
Ummm maybe I'll go back and reread earlier entries of the diary.
Hi Snowyw ...Is the cake ready yet? ;D
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Not sure Deb. You'd expect them to either start and the top and work down or vice versa. If the rooms have numbers wouldn't they start with room 1 at the bottom (on street level)? How many rooms might there be on each floor?... :-\
Nat often refers to the rooms by how they're situated rather than by numbers, as with Uncle John's room. Might some have numbers and some not?
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I'm fully in agreement with the genereal sentiment about this being one of the best entries of the diary so far. Probably the best, indeed. The idea of Nat not being in the least bit surprised or taken aback that someone else had assumed he was insane, is priceless. It also I think clarifies a little his behaviour I think, since the word 'odd' has been used to describe him in this thread numerous times, but I've never been quite sure to what extent that strangeness is due to Nat personally or merely down to our unfamiliarity with day-to-day life back then (well, unfamiliarity on my part anyway; I shouldn't presume it on behalf of others.) But this entry seems to settle that in a way by suggesting that his behaviour was very much odd for its time also.
I'm confused about the 35 shillings for a dead horse, which was diseased to begin with, since cut open and half-eaten by a cat (apologies to anyone eating...) That would've been quite a bit of money back then? Why on earth would a horse in that state be of such value? Also the effort expounded in establishing the cause of death seems odd.
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Hi Drykid
I also wondered about that ... Didn't George Lea have a penchant fo buying horses? Maybe he wanted to make sure the horse had not been poisoned :-\
Paying for a dead, ravaged horse does seem stange ...maybe it was taken to a glue factory :-X where more shillings changed hands.
deb
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Were the Vaggs ever found in 1851?
If NB was living in the garret before he moved to the Marshall rooms, wouldn't have lived there with his mother and Matt Ward? I thought he was living with them?
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The smell in the stable would have come from the entrails but there was nothing wrong with the horsemeat! Everything - including skins, hair, hooves & bones - could be utilised. Sadly, the strain placed on the horses by the weight of the loads they pulled did irreparable damage to their 'innards'.
Having established a cause of death other than poisoning enabled butchering for human consumption: a cat would probably have been satiated with a handful of flesh. :-X
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I thought that the cat would probably have eaten the bits that came out when the horse was opened up...intestines, liver, stomach, heart, kidneys, that sort of thing. I assumed that the rest of it would then have been taken by the knacker's man.
As for the difference between an attic and a garret, I'm not sure. You hear of poets starving in garrets in Paris, but a house (especially a biggish house) often had several attics. Maybe a garret is at the top of a small tower? Or perhaps there was a front attic, a back attic, and then another floor above that, the garret (what would nowadays be called the penthouse!).
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Were the Vaggs ever found in 1851?
If NB was living in the garret before he moved to the Marshall rooms, wouldn't have lived there with his mother and Matt Ward? I thought he was living with them?
28 Feb Matthew Ward suggested it was time Nathaniel paid towards rent.
29 Apr Received information from Mother of the Marshalls going to leave their lodgings in the second floor Richmonds Buildings, and the intention of Granny Shepard’s moving thence if terms can be agreed upon between the landlord and her, but at present it is only talked of.
12 May Granny Shepard at Richmonds Buildings cleaning the two rooms on the second floor back to be in readiness for our occupation next week.
18 May Took 2 rooms on second floor, 9 Richmonds Buildings, for self and Granny from this day.
I can't find any mention of Uncle John's whereabouts during that period but I think I detected a 'J'[ourneyman] in his 1841 census entry.
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Wow, what an entry! I had such a shock when I read it though as I had a dream about a dead horse last night!!
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Hi Steven
that's bizarre! :o
deb :)
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that is very spooky Steven! :o :o :o -
can I be cheeky, and ask if NB's quirky insanity passed down at all??? ;D ;D
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Daisy, no I don't believe we found the Vaggs in 1851 .... :-\
dee-jay - good find - Matthew Ward asked Nathaniel for some rent money way back in February. So he must have been with Matthew and his mother then. He refused to pay anything towards the rent but was happy to pay rent for a room of his own.
People seemed to move around quite a lot - often not too far, but maybe for a cheaper rent or better room, so it's still not clear how long Nat was living with Matthew and his mother. I would love to know if the three of them lived in the garret, or just Nathaniel alone? :-\
Steven - what on earth made you dream of a dead horse? :o I'll be interested to know your answer to Daisy's queston. ;)
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I told my wife my dream this morning. There were two horses in it and one died. She interpreted it in terms of my anxieties about looking after 2 cats, each one belonging to two different neighbours, prompted by one of the neighbours returning home and coming to see me on Monday evening. The horse link related to my preparation to take the lead role as Curly the cowboy in Oklahoma, for which I am busy learning lines! We were aghast when we read the entry on Tuesday evening. By the way, yesterday (Tuesday) was my 40th birthday. Mental illness affected my great grandfather (NB's grandson), Leo Bryceson, and of one of his daughters. Leo had a nervous breakdown when he was 40! Please God, I shall not suffer the same!! x
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Steven - do not worry - my interpretation of "odd" was that he was a bit bookish, liked to wander around graveyards and was a bit of a loner not that he was mentally unstable ! For him to mention it like that makes me wonder if he has heard such a description of himself before........personally to write such comments about himself suggests a mental stability and sense that he was comfortable in his "self". That I find impressive in a 19 year old from any era!
I think that if being bit bookish, liked to wander around graveyards and was a bit of a loner was thought of being odd then I would definitely be described as such.
N
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Hi Steven
I second Nestagj's comments!
Belated Happy Birthday ...40 is a really great one!
I have also been dreaming up a storm ...seeing old school mates and my grandparents.
deb
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I am totally with you on this: regonising one's mental instability is a great sign of having a truly healthy mind! Or maybe I am just a little crazy?!#
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;D
I think to question your sanity means you're sane.
deb
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Great minds think alike !! I used to know a psychiatrist who was a bit odd ! and his answer to the occassional strange look or comment was - it takes one to know one ! I think that says it all !!!!!
Hello Deb; Steven is it the dreams keeping you awake - I just can't sleep " I too have the strangest dreams - i'm sure an analyst would have a wondeful time deciphering them. Ok sometimes they are totally related to something that's bothering me but most times they are totally disconnected - like you - old schoolmates and family. Sometimes my late parents !!!!
Ah well going to try and get back to sleep now
Night Night !
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Happy Birthday Steven! (or should that be Curly). ;D
Like the others I don't see Nathaniel as having any kind of mental instability. He is simply unusual and eccentric and very interesting! And now we have seen this other side to him - a sense of humour - he is able to laugh at himself.
The cat eating horse discussion is a bit stomach turning so I'm going to stay out of that from now on ... :P
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What on earth are we going to do with no diary entries for FOUR days?! >:(
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Something to keep in mind (but which may not be true) is the fact that when Mary married Matthew Ward on 27th June 1841 their details were:
Matthew Ward, full age, Tailor, living: Richmonds Buildings, father: Matthew Ward, Tailor
= Mary Bryceson, full age, wid, living: Dean St, father: John Sheperd, mason
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Something to keep in mind (but which may not be true) ... Mary Bryceson, full age, wid, living: Dean St, father: John Sheperd, mason
I laboriously checked Dean Street images of 1841 to no avail but discovered many illegible entries in the surrounding streets. I have to keep reminding myself that the census returns are a 'snapshot' of just one night ... :(
Has anyone made any attempt to discover the occupants of 22 St James' Street - which Nat mentions several times?
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I did have a look into the James St address...I am pretty sure I posted a few bits about it! As to where, I don't know...possibly in the first two or three threads! But as I've said before, fresh eyes are always welcome! ;D
Steven...Ruskie used a good word, eccentric, which would have been my interpretation of NB's comments regarding insanity! In fact, he reminds me of my nephew...who is thin, dark haired, dark eyed, his hair is a big mop that hangs into his eyes, and he's in to the (dare I compare?) modern day version of books...the computer...but he is extremely sharp, and has a very dry wit, and he too, is just 19. He's heavily into irony and self deprecation, which is how I kind of imagine NB to be.
Happy Birthday Steven...glad to know that you are older than me....just... ;D
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I wouldn't read anything into Nat using the words attic and garret - a garret IS a room under the roof.
I'm sure Nat has mentioned his diary, and called it a journal, and you could call a car an automobile, and a cat a feline. Its just different names for the same thing. However, specific use of the word attic in modern language doesn't infer a room rather than a non inhabitable storage space. Different meanings for different times perhaps.
I cant imagine any attic space in Soho - especially now - not being exploited as lucrative living accommodation
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I wouldn't read anything into Nat using the words attic and garret - a garret IS a room under the roof.
.... Its just different names for the same thing. However, specific use of the word attic in modern language doesn't infer a room rather than a non inhabitable storage space. Different meanings for different times perhaps.
I cant imagine any attic space in Soho - especially now - not being exploited as lucrative living accommodation
I came to the same conclusion after a bit of googling ... ;)
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dee-jay, I think Deb also looked for the James St address ...
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I couldn't find a likely William OSMOND, Silversmith, or Ann/Eliza THOMAS, Cook, and I gave up on address searches when I encountered some enumerators' variations of St James Street and James Street in Westminster parishes: too much for someone without intimate knowledge of the topography! ??? 1851 shows an influx of artists in and around 22 James Sreet, Westminster St Margaret [HO107 piece 1480 folio 477 page 8].
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I have compliled a list of residents of Richmond Buildings in the 1841 and 1851 censuses.
There is a really interesting selection of nationalities and occupations living there.
I won't bother posting it (unless requested) because I don't think it helps us to work out who was living where in Richmond Buildings. There's no mention of an attic or garret. :-\
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Re the Vaggs - I just had to refresh my memory - there is a Catherine Vagg visitor, widow, milliner on the 1851 census ... I can't recall ever finding a death for Richard (or Nathaniel).
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I am so pleased to have another diary entry today. I love Nat's turn of phrase:
"Received intelligence from Granny Shepard of the death of Mrs Wilcocks" ;D He makes me smile.
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Susannah Patience Wilcocks of Tottenham Court Road buried at Kensal Green Cemetery 26 November 1846 aged 42.
Thomas Wilcocks married Susannah Patience Jarvis 11 September 1825 at St Pancras Chapel.
Children: Thomas Fry bapt 8 Nov 1826 St Pancras Old church. Thomas was a pork butcher of Little Charlotte Street. Ancestry have transcribed Patience as catherine, but it is clearly Patience.
Susannah Elizabeth bapt 17 Sept 1828 St Pancras Old church. Thomas a butcher of Little Charlotte Street.
Elizabeth Fanny bapt 10 July 1831 - the family now in Goode Street
and Arthur Henry bapt 24 September 1843 the family now in Tottenham Court Road and Thomas still a pork butcher.
Oddly the 1841 census has Thomas Wilcocks aged 40 pork butcher living in the Tottenham Court Road with a Mathew Wilcocks aged 57, Eleanor Robinson aged 33 independant and a servant Mary ?Curtin aged 22. Susannah and the children must be elsewhere. In 1851 he's still there but with his children - daughter Susannah is now Susan Adams and a 22 year old widow.
Which is probably more than we need to know anout the Wilcocks family!
Carole
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Susannah Patience Wilcocks of Tottenham Court Road buried at Kensal Green Cemetery 26 November 1846 aged 42.
Thomas Wilcocks married Susannah Patience Jarvis 11 September 1825 at St Pancras Chapel.
Children: Thomas Fry bapt 8 Nov 1826 St Pancras Old church. Thomas was a pork butcher of Little Charlotte Street. Ancestry have transcribed Patience as catherine, but it is clearly Patience.
Susannah Elizabeth bapt 17 Sept 1828 St Pancras Old church. Thomas a butcher of Little Charlotte Street.
Elizabeth Fanny bapt 10 July 1831 - the family now in Goode Street
and Arthur Henry bapt 24 September 1843 the family now in Tottenham Court Road and Thomas still a pork butcher.
Oddly the 1841 census has Thomas Wilcocks aged 40 pork butcher living in the Tottenham Court Road with a Mathew Wilcocks aged 57, Eleanor Robinson aged 33 independant and a servant Mary ?Curtin aged 22. Susannah and the children must be elsewhere. In 1851 he's still there but with his children - daughter Susannah is now Susan Adams and a 22 year old widow.
Which is probably more than we need to know anout the Wilcocks family!
Carole
Not at all Carole. It's all very interesting. :) Thanks for chasing them up.
Mrs Wilcocks died on the 21st but wasn't buried until the 26th - I wonder why so long?
Poor Susan/nah, a 22 year old widow in 1851 - oh dear. :(
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Marriages
Mar 1848
ADAMS Joseph St Pancras 1 282
WILCOCKS Susannah Elizabeth St Pancras 1 282
And a possible:
Joseph Adams
buried All Souls Kensal Green on 7 Feb 1849
age 23
of London St, Fitzroy Square, St Pancras
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Some amazing detail in today's entry. I reckon we could easily find Mr McAuliffe's burial place today (if the burial ground hasn't been razed to the ground :().
I get the impression that Ann might be trying to cool the relationship with Nat. She stood him up and he had to chase after her .... :o What's going on? ;)
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Hi Ruskie
Lots of detail today ...sounds like Mr. McA may have been important/wealthy?
This is interesting .... re; his grave ...would it have been this deep in order for the rest of his family to be buried on top of him ... not a waste of space, so to speak!? .....
...... "from thence to the grave, which was about 16 feet deep,"
deb
PS ...I have so missed Nat .... :-\
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We were missing Nat, but what if Ann had missed something more significant: her 'cycle'? After the Sunday when she was 'plastered', there were Sundays on 4-weekly rotations when she either did not accompany him anywhere or she was not mentioned at all. :-[
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What a brilliant description of a funeral complete with funeral mutes who must have been going out of fashion even them. Simply people paid to look mournful - I found these funeral mutes from a bit later than 1846 but they would have looked much like this:
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a206/hoddworld/Mutes.jpg)
I'm just thinking what an amazing feat it was to dig a grave 16' deep- and how dangerous with the risk of the whole thing caving in on the grave diggers. John McAuliffe greengrocer of 18 James Street left a PCC will PROB 11/2049 and I think he's on the 1841 census at John Street with his wife Caroline and 4 children. His death is on FREE BMD but not on Ancestry London burials.
Carole
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Brilliant entry today.
I love Nat's impatience at Ann not turning up!!!
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What a brilliant description of a funeral complete with funeral mutes who must have been going out of fashion even them. Simply people paid to look mournful - I found these funeral mutes from a bit later than 1846 but they would have looked much like this:
I'm just thinking what an amazing feat it was to dig a grave 16' deep- and how dangerous with the risk of the whole thing caving in on the grave diggers. John McAuliffe greengrocer of 18 James Street left a PCC will PROB 11/2049 and I think he's on the 1841 census at John Street with his wife Caroline and 4 children. His death is on FREE BMD but not on Ancestry London burials.
Carole
Well spotted the Mute reference Carole. I dismissed that part of the entry and I'd never heard of Mutes anyway. What an education this diary is. :) I've heard of paid mourners of course but didn't know they were called Mutes. I must do some googling to find out more. ;)
Yes, 16 feet is extremely deep - I never would have thought that a grave would (or could) be dug that deep. Earlier I looked at google maps but it's so built up around St George Hanover Square that there doesn't appear to be a burial ground remaining - shame. Mr McAuliffe was buried so deep that he might still be there though. :)
I keep losing posts - I replied earlier saying that dee-jay may have a point about why Ann is regularly indisposed.
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Thanks for the explanation Carole, I hadn't realised what "Mutes" was about.
What a wonderful description of where the grave was, if only we had something of the sort for some of our own we might be able to find them ;)
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I know there has been speculation about Ann being at Stephen Street on here but is this the first reference from NB to confirm where she lived?
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I know there has been speculation about Ann being at Stephen Street on here but is this the first reference from NB to confirm where she lived?
See 26 Apr and 24 May.
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St George's burial ground was to the north of Bayswater Road and has been built on. The road there now is called St George's Field. This is fairly recent, the 1955 LCC list of streets does not mention it. It is just west of Marble Arch, the site of Tyburn gallows.
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I did write "Fairly recent"! It seems that it was closed for burials in 1854 and developed about 1964. See Hansard for 11 Feb 1964.
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I did write "Fairly recent"! It seems that it was closed for burials in 1854 and developed about 1964. See Hansard for 11 Feb 1964.
Oh dear, that's disappointing but not surprising .... :-\
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I think this must be a mistranscription of 6ft deep. Sixteen feet is a VERY deep grave.
Paul
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6 ft is a grave for one person; graves go deeper for more (I think by 2 ft per person) 16 ft is deep but I guess that is what impressed NB!
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I assume a 16' grave was dug so that he could later be joined by his wife and possibly also a child or two. It still seems quite a feat. The ground around would be well disturbed already and they might well also have had to dig up an earlier internment, as London burial grounds were continually being reused . I should also think there would be a good chance of a hole that deep filling up with water. Health and safety wouldn't be very keen on that kind of thing today.
Carole
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Another interesting entry today (Thursday) mentioning Nathaniel's previous employment as an errand boy.
Got to rush out now, but will be back later to do some research. :)
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This must be her - 1841 Census HO107 Piece 675 Folio 14/43
Hanway Street, St Marlebone:
Charles Emery 61 Ironmonger
Susanna Emery 64 Wife
Susanna Emery 32 Milliner
Isabella Emery 30 Milliner
Margaret ?Boulton (it's very faint) 20 Servant
Their ages don't match exactly but Isabella Emery aged 39 of 25 Hanway Street St Marylebone was buried in Kensal Green
Cemetery 4 December 1846. She was baptised at St Jame's Clerkenwell d/o Charles and Susannah 20 March 1808 - I think the same day as she was born.
I hadn't thought of it before but I expect errand boys came in useful in the days before telephones taking notes to customers and acting as a courier service.
Carole
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The house number is written in at the side of the census page - it was 24 Hanway Street (tallies with the diary)
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I must say my eyebrows shot up when Nat casually mentions that Miss Isabella Emery was one of his former mistresses, and I immediately wondered why he hadn't written it in shorthand. Then he mentioned being an errand boy for her, and I felt slightly ashamed for thinking such things!
It's not really surprising that Nat's so interested in death/funerals/graves and inscriptions when so many people he knew were dying so young. On the episode of the Edwardian Farm before the one last night (for anyone who's not watching, it's a TV show where a group of historians and archaeologists experience life as it would have been like on a farm in the early years of the 20th century), there was an expert who spoke of Hallowe'en as being not just about the ghosties and witches and ghouls that we play around with now, but that it was the harbinger of winter, which in a very real way did bring death with it, through the cold and the lack of food. I hadn't thought of it that way before. Death was never very far away for our ancestors, so it's natural that they should be mindful of it.
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From today's entry it sounds like London 1846 was every bit as cold as it is today, everyone was buying coal to keep warm.
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From today's entry it sounds like London 1846 was every bit as cold as it is today, everyone was buying coal to keep warm.
Yes, BBC Weather says 3* today. :)
I originally wondered if the lack of coal at the wharf was due to mismanagement or some mess up - I didn't think about the temperature. :)
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Re today's entry: I imagine Mr. Pharoah would be an easy person to trace than most; that's a fairly unusual surname.
Sounds like that cat exhausted one of its nine lives, also.
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Yes, more proof that Nathaniel likes animals I think. ;)
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Ancestry has the burial of William Pharoah on 15 Sept 1846. Age 24(? I think - writing is feint) He is from Little Pulteney Street, St James. Nathaniel did say "somewhere about this time" - he's way out date wise. :-\
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Possible baptism:
William Pharaoh
20 Jul 1823
son of William and Susanna
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Looks like the pub was one of these: Lukes Head or The Duke of Argyll or Queens head
http://deadpubs.co.uk/LondonPubs/Westminster/LukesHead.shtml
http://deadpubs.co.uk/LondonPubs/Westminster/DukeArgyll.shtml
http://deadpubs.co.uk/LondonPubs/Westminster/QueensHead.shtml
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Possible baptism:
William Pharaoh
20 Jul 1823
son of William and Susanna
Maybe they did things differently then, but 23 seems awfully young to be a pub landlord? Not that there's any reason why a 23 year-old couldn't do the job perfectly, but I've always thought of it as something for an older person.
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Possible baptism:
William Pharaoh
20 Jul 1823
son of William and Susanna
Maybe they did things differently then, but 23 seems awfully young to be a pub landlord? Not that there's any reason why a 23 year-old couldn't do the job perfectly, but I've always thought of it as something for an older person.
Yes, I thought exactly the same thing.
If that's the correct baptism, father William was a leather dresser, so it's not like he took over the family business - unless the father changed trades at some stage ... :-\
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Today's entry! :o
I love it! Something for everyone today - thank you Nathaniel! ;D
This has added to my theory that Ann isn't on the breadline - she makes regular (frivolous? :-\) purchases. I also thought it interesting that Nat was happy to mention going to St Pauls with Ann and spoke of her new cloak NOT in shorthand.
Oh dear Mattie knows ... I think they all know. ;)
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This has added to my theory that Ann isn't on the breadline - she makes regular (frivolous? :-\) purchases.....
Oh dear Mattie knows ... I think they all know. ;)
Brand new cloak or new to her? There is no mention of a purchase or a benefactor, but Ann wore half-mourning a while back for a likely former employer. Clothes were often willed to servants in this era and a cloak was more of a necessity in November 1846 when coal stocks were low at the very onset of winter. I can't find references at the moment but I believe 1846/1847 was a particularly bleak winter .....? :'(
I'm confident that Mattie and Nat's mother and grandmother were under no illusions concerning Nat's relationship with Ann. Matters are now coming to the 'boil': was Mattie detailed to bring matters to a head? Fascinating stuff!
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Oh dear Mattie knows ... I think they all know. ;)
It must be remarkably difficult to get caught in flagrante when you have 10 minutes warning of the impending interruption, I'm beginning to think Nat actually wants to get caught out...
Brand new cloak or new to her? There is no mention of a purchase or a benefactor, but Ann wore half-mourning a while back for a likely former employer. Clothes were often willed to servants in this era and a cloak was more of a necessity in November 1846 when coal stocks were low at the very onset of winter. I can't find references at the moment but I believe 1846/1847 was a particularly bleak winter .....? :'(
Yeah I think I linked to this table before:
http://hadobs.metoffice.com/hadcet/ssn_HadCET_mean.txt
You can see that the 12-month period beginning Dec 1846 was much colder than the one before and after (and indeed much colder than the average for the time.) There wasn't a winter that cold again until 1891.
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Perhaps too much information today :o
Out of interest, St Mary Newington was an incredibly busy church, so you can take your pick out of these five couples as to which pair's wedding Nat saw this Sunday - Thomas Averill a Whitesmith and Maris Curtis a widow, Richard Belcher a Porter and Georgiana Radlett, Daniel Larner a Gardener and Emma Livemore. John Buckingham Mariner and Jane Parrott, Thomas Pritchard, widower, a Stoker and Maria Turner.
Carole
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Perhaps too much information today :o
Carole
oh, no no no no no! ;D
Good point dee-jay. I didn't consider the fact that it might be a second hand cloak.
And it does seem odd that there was knocking on the door for 10 minutes and then Mattie caught them. ;)
Something I found interesting was his description of "outer" doors and inner and outer rooms. I would LOVE to know the layout of the rooms in Richmond Buildings ....
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Out of interest, St Mary Newington was an incredibly busy church, so you can take your pick out of these five couples as to which pair's wedding Nat saw this Sunday - Thomas Averill a Whitesmith and Maris Curtis a widow, Richard Belcher a Porter and Georgiana Radlett, Daniel Larner a Gardener and Emma Livemore. John Buckingham Mariner and Jane Parrott, Thomas Pritchard, widower, a Stoker and Maria Turner.
Carole
Nathaniel describes them as a young couple. Maybe we can tentatively illiminate the widow/er? :-\ Nat arrived at 10 am. I wonder if we viewed the PR's would the couples be listed in the order they married?
I see they are all just listed as "full age" so no clues there. :-\
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"rattling at the outer room door which continued for about 10 minutes till at last the door was opened"
I wonder who opened the door? ;)
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Hello all
Not getting notifications again;
There seems to be lots going on in Nat's life at the moment - he definitely seems to me to be writing things in as he remembers maybe not as regularly as before. Maybe this is why it ends in early Dec - he's getting too busy at work or dealing with Ann !
Nesta
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Hello all
Not getting notifications again;
There seems to be lots going on in Nat's life at the moment - he definitely seems to me to be writing things in as he remembers maybe not as regularly as before. Maybe this is why it ends in early Dec - he's getting too busy at work or dealing with Ann !
Nesta
Don't remind me!!!! That day has almost come. :'(
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I think its been mentioned before that the diary ends on 12th(?) as it was full having been a partly used accounts book. Sadly that was a Saturday I think, so we have just one more sunday left. Nat had better get a spurt on if hes gonna reach home base this sunday. ;D Buying a 'new' coat wouldnt have been frivolous in the winter surely? Perhaps by now Ann should have learnt not to wear her good stuff to Nat's rooms on a sunday :) I dont think they were "caught at it" as such, just together in the same room - a 20 y/o and a 45 y/o woman would be enough to be described as 'caught'.
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Yes true enough about the coat (cloak actually ;)), but you would think that she'd have one from last winter?
I've been thinking about the arrangement of the rooms in Richmond Buildings and wonder if it may have been a bit like a flat of today, with a main door (Nat's 'outer room door') to a communal hallway. Then inside the flat would be a number of rooms ... bedrooms and possibly a kitchen/living area. These rooms would have had ('inner room') doors.
When Nathaniel describes his family renting the rooms at a certain amount per week, I wonder if each flat was charged according to the number of bedrooms, so when we see several families at the same address they are probably just renting a single room within a flat? Similar with Ann at Mrs Kennington's in Stephen Street - in the 1851 there is also the Cock family and John Burns living there, so perhaps 4 rooms in the flat unless some are sharing a room/bed?
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If you go back to May, the preparations for occupation of the two rooms 2nd floor back, Granny Shepard, well into her 70s, took several days to clean them and, of course, Nat's took priority, so in the interim Granny had to return to her former lodgings! :(
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If you go back to May, the preparations for occupation of the two rooms 2nd floor back, Granny Shepard, well into her 70s, took several days to clean them and, of course, Nat's took priority, so in the interim Granny had to return to her former lodgings! :(
Yes she did ... but she may have willingly taken on the task.
Nat's took priority,
Well we don't know that for certain ...
so in the interim Granny had to return to her former lodgings! :(
She may have paid rent in her old place up until a certain date and did not need to move to Richmond Buildings immediately ....
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Hi Everyone
was not sure what this refered to ...so googled:
The Mint, that focus of crime and misery in the Borough of Southwark, it is expected will be shortly demolished.
see here:
http://www.economicexpert.com/a/The:Mint.htm
"The Mint was a district in Southwark in London, England named for King Henry VIII having set up his mint there.........
The Mint's primary population was debtors. Those who were in danger of being thrown into debtor's prison could, if they were lucky, run to The Mint to hide. Once in The Mint, such debtors risked immediate arrest if they were found outside of it. Debt collectors (known as "duns") would stand along the main roads out of The Mint and wait for any suspected debtor. Sometimes the duns were bill collectors in the modern sense, and sometimes they were thugs who would beat and seize the debtor. Within The Mint, life was hard. Since persons there could not leave (except on Sunday, when no debts could be collected), they could not get jobs to raise money enough to pay off their debts. Those who would attempt to leave The Mint on Sunday to gather money from friends or lenders were often called "Sunday gentelmen," as they would attempt to appear prosperous to hoodwink lenders."
deb
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If you go back to May, the preparations for occupation of the two rooms 2nd floor back, Granny Shepard, well into her 70s, took several days to clean them and, of course, Nat's took priority, so in the interim Granny had to return to her former lodgings! :(
Yes she did ... but she may have willingly taken on the task.
Nat's took priority,
Well we don't know that for certain ...
so in the interim Granny had to return to her former lodgings! :(
She may have paid rent in her old place up until a certain date and did not need to move to Richmond Buildings immediately ....
I don't think we can escape from the entry for Monday 16th May: ' Old Granny Shepard sleeps at her lodging tonight, the room not yet being in readiness for her, though mine is prepared for me. Slept in it for first time this night.' [The previous day Nat was out gallivanting with Ann ..... ]
It appears that there is an error in page format of the transcription as a date follows for Wednesday that has not been separated into a new heading but the inference is clearly that Granny's room was not in a state of readiness for her to sleep there until Wednesday night and we know that Nat's mother was very ill at this time - confined to her bed for almost the whole month according to Nat.
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If you go back to May, the preparations for occupation of the two rooms 2nd floor back, Granny Shepard, well into her 70s, took several days to clean them and, of course, Nat's took priority, so in the interim Granny had to return to her former lodgings! :(
Yes she did ... but she may have willingly taken on the task.
Nat's took priority,
Well we don't know that for certain ...
so in the interim Granny had to return to her former lodgings! :(
She may have paid rent in her old place up until a certain date and did not need to move to Richmond Buildings immediately ....
I don't think we can escape from the entry for Monday 16th May: ' Old Granny Shepard sleeps at her lodging tonight, the room not yet being in readiness for her, though mine is prepared for me. Slept in it for first time this night.' [The previous day Nat was out gallivanting with Ann ..... ]
It appears that there is an error in page format of the transcription as a date follows for Wednesday that has not been separated into a new heading but the inference is clearly that Granny's room was not in a state of readiness for her to sleep there until Wednesday night and we know that Nat's mother was very ill at this time - confined to her bed for almost the whole month according to Nat.
So dee-jay, are you inferring that Nat was spoilt? ;D
Maybe Nat had seen Ann the previous day but he does hold down a full time job. He was probabaly too tired to help Granny Shepard clean. ;D ;)
Living in a patriarchal society perhaps Nathaniel's needs/wants were given priority over everyone else's even his old Granny. Maybe she just liked to fuss over him? Also remember he was an only child. ;)
Boys probably weren't expected to engage in such activities at that time. Even my old Gran thought that boys should not engage in domestic chores (something nipped in the bud and not passed down the generations ;)). Nat admitted a while back that he was selfish (when Mr Galangal(?) gave him a talking to?). It was probably just the way things were in those days and everyone had the same attitude.
I don't think we should judge Nathaniel by our attitudes today.
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I don't think we should judge Nathaniel by our attitudes today.
But Mr Ballingall's letter of censure was contemporary ..... ::)
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I dont think there has been an entry as exciting as today's before :-\
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I dont think there has been an entry as exciting as today's before :-\
Oi, you being sarcastic?
;D
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Possibly :)
We could play a game "complete the sentence which makes no sense"....
I did find, a month or two back a spoof blog, where someone was reading the diary entries and making up silly alternatives with a modern twist. Didnt bookmark it though.
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only 10 more days to go! :'(
What are we going to do then?
Maybe the Westminster Archives could put the diary in book form so that we could all buy one!
deb
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here's Mr Herbert
William Herbert
buried: 2 Dec 1846
78 (bc 1768)
workhouse
St Pancras, Camden
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Aha! In that case my entry for complete-the-unfinished-sentence would be "workhouse"...
"Old Mr Herbert buried at St Pancras Old Church yard from the … workhouse"
(Good detective work, deb!)
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Possibly the Shoemaker J[ourneyman] formerly of Stephen Street [1841 with Sarah]?
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only 10 more days to go! :'(
What are we going to do then?
Maybe the Westminster Archives could put the diary in book form so that we could all buy one!
deb
A really sad day ...
I think Westminster Archives do intend to put the diary into book form.
I am going away on the 11th ... :'( so will miss all all the recapping about the diary. :'(
How can I lock this thread? :'(
After the last diary entry ( :'() I also intended to start a new "general discussion" thread about the diary but I won't be able to as I won't be here. Not sure if I'll have internet access ... :'(
I'll really miss this. :'(
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Today's entry:
Is a 'day book' a diary? If so, he is having one made! How much nicer would that be than this year's diary - an old ledger book! Oh, if only it had survived. I am SO sad to think about it being thrown out after all the thoughts, time and effort Nat went to to have it made and write in it. And I'm sad that we don't have the pleasure of another year of Nat's life. :'(
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I suppose that would have been one of the ones that the antiquarian Aleck Abrahams owned. Hopefully there are still more of Nathaniel's diaries out there somewhere and one day they will be found.
Carole
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I may well be wrong but I thought today's entry referred to something like a promotional diary for the coal-yard to give out to their customers? Cutting it a bit fine though if it's to be ready for distribution in time for the new year!
Heather
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I may well be wrong but I thought today's entry referred to something like a promotional diary for the coal-yard to give out to their customers? Cutting it a bit fine though if it's to be ready for distribution in time for the new year!
Heather
I agree, I think it is a work related item, I imagine it is a ledger to record the day to day coal in/coal out transactions. As regards it being ready for the New Year, well, they didn't hang about in those days - everything from new dresses to burials via court cases was done and dusted within a few days.
I started to watch The Georgian House, a new series on TV last night. The researcher used information from surviving diaries from 18th century and there are several stored in various archives all over the country. I wonder if Westminster Archives have another diary (by someone else) up their sleeve for next year?
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Yeah I wondered if it meant his next diary but concluded that "day book" was an odd term for it, and therefore that it must be a work-related thing instead.
As for other diaries, like Carole says I think it's likely that a number of Nat's diaries passed to Aleck Abrahams, who definitely owned a collection of very valuable books, as he referred to them enough in Notes and Queries. I imagine therefore that his books were auctioned off or sold to a bookseller on his death; it's unlikely that anyone would be daft enough to simply dump a large collection of antiquarian books. So I think there's a reasonable chance that others have survived and are in private collections somewhere. Just not in the same place. But I haven't given up hope that another one will still surface.
Dunno if I said this before, but I was reading a bit on the antique book trade while googling around in hope of finding information. Anyway I came across something by some collector who was saying how much collecting rare books is about establishing contacts with other collectors. Apparently the nature of the trade is that the really interesting items are often not listed in catalogues or sold at auctions, but traded on a more personal basis. So that gives me hope that other diaries could still be around even if there's no solid evidence to support it.
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It would be wonderful if this is the case and at least some of Nathaniel's other diaries survived. We live in hope.
Another day with no diary entry. Sad.
After all this is over maybe we should all get back to searching for more of Nathaniel's descendants. I know we have covered this elsewhere, but there must be more to be found. :)
And I'm glad that you all think the day book is work related - I don't feel so sad now. And they certainly did make things quickly in those days and it would have been quality workmanship by skilled craftsmen. Amazing achievements. Remember how quickly Nat got his new hat? ;) I was expecting him to have to wait for months.
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I cannot remember whether anyone noticed this one:-
1861 RG9/1059/45/P4 10 Rathbone St, Plaistow, West Ham, Essex
Ann Fox; Head; Widow; 60; Bible Woman; born Middlesex, Strand.
In the 1851 census she seems to say her birthplace is Green St which could be the street which is now Irving St, Leicester Sq & thus in Strand district.
Perhaps she "got religion" and worked among the dockers.
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I cannot remember whether anyone noticed this one:-
1861 RG9/1059/45/P4 10 Rathbone St, Plaistow, West Ham, Essex
Ann Fox; Head; Widow; 60; Bible Woman; born Middlesex, Strand.
In the 1851 census she seems to say her birthplace is Green St which could be the street which is now Irving St, Leicester Sq & thus in Strand district.
Perhaps she "got religion" and worked among the dockers.
Hi Mongibello. By chance I discovered that Deb found that Ann Fox back in Part 4. I suppose it could very well be her.
Maybe she had religion all along. ;) Nathaniel mentions her churchgoing on a regular basis.
A widow? If this Ann Fox doesn't appear on any other census then she might be our Ann. :) Just looked and I couldn't see her in 1851 ....
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I have a 'gut' feeling that Ann did not survive to appear in the 1861 Census. There are loads of deaths in her name in Middlesex between 1851-1861 ..... :'(
She was meticulous in her accuracy on age in 1851 but did not reveal her marital status: perhaps she was uncertain? A husband - perhaps a seaman? - could have been absent for some years?
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Perhaps her lack of marital status in 1851 was just an oversight. ;) In 1841 she is said to be 30, so born 1811 which is way out even allowing for rounding.
Anyhow looking at all the Ann Fox deaths on Ancestry this is the closest age wise if that is our Ann in 1861 as found by Deb and Mongibello:
St Marylebone
Ann Fox w (wid?) age 61 'Laundress' (maybe she gave up the bible woman job ;))
died 22 Feb 1864 10am
workhouse
admitted Nov 11 '63
cause of death: chronic bronchitis
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Hi all
I do remember finding her although we had a problem with her occupation ...I think we thought she was a BIBB woman ;D ;D
deb
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This one adds to the confusion in the Workhouse 1861:
FOX, Ann Pauper Widow 56 Laundress born Welwyn Hertford
RG09 piece 76 folio 115 page 17.
In order to attribute the costs of her stay, the Board of Guardians would presumably have established her origins.
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Dear all, I can't believe this will be the last week of NB's diary entries! I do hope the research and conversation continues from time to time. Thank you so much for everything you have helped me learn about my 3x great grandfather and others in his family. I am looking forward to exploring some of the churches and other places NB visited when I am on sabbatical in April-July. In putting together a list of the churches, it has occured to me that NB was working through an alphabetical list in 1846 from K - M by order of dedication eg. St Katherines - St Marys. He doesn't do it absolutely consistently but there is definately a pattern and not unlike the way my own mind works on these things: it must be inherited! NB lives on indeed!! Peace and joy, Steven.
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This one adds to the confusion in the Workhouse 1861:
FOX, Ann Pauper Widow 56 Laundress born Welwyn Hertford
RG09 piece 76 folio 115 page 17.
In order to attribute the costs of her stay, the Board of Guardians would presumably have established her origins.
This looks like it could belong to the death I found - though age is a bit out ...... "our" Ann always said she was born in Middx.
Steven. I can't believe it either. It's quite sad and frustrating - I really feel that I need to know more but there is no more. :'(
It is amazing that you have found a pattern in Nathaniel's church visits. Maybe breaks in the pattern were due to inclement weather with Nathaniel not wanting to venture too far in the cold/rain and choosing a church closer to home to visit that Sunday. ;)
I'm sure we will continue the discussion and there will be a renewed interest when the diary is published. I hope they do a good job of it and include (I think essential) old and current maps and maybe some of the vital information that has been found on this thread.
Nathaniel certainly lives on!
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What an anticlimax today! I have a horrible feeling that we're going to be left hanging each day this week .... :(
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I thought today's entry was quite interesting actually, filling us in a bit on how his mother is fairing. Not enough personal detail though.
I suspect you may be right dee-jay, and we might be really left unfulfilled when the diary abruptly ends ....
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I feel so sorry for his mother - the poor woman has nearly another year to live. She must have been in dreadful pain.
Carole
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I feel so sorry for his mother - the poor woman has nearly another year to live. She must have been in dreadful pain.
Carole
Yes, poor Mary. At one stage Nat told us a little about the treatment she received - I would like to know more and whether any of this helped her at all. :-\
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I originally thought it was quite sad that Nats mother died a year or so after the diary ended, but if she was like that, what was the point of going on.
Nats entry is a bit strange. He is talking about his mother in quite a disspassionate way, and it seems as if he had not seen her in the preceeding two months to know what she was like.
Hmmm.
One other thing of note, as far as I rememember, Nats diary never deals with planning. Its basically a statement of facts of the day. He nver mentions things he is to do later in the week, or any real personal thoughts. Its essentially a self contained statement of each day. Ok a diary is a day book, but dont most people put their future thoughts and muse on the past etc.
Or is this factual 'day at a time' approach the reaon why he shows no emotion to his mother - I dont think so, there is something else there I think. Either Nat has a reason not to like his mother, or he is a bit of a git.
Still I like him and will miss him terribly. Has the diary made him live on, or die a second time?
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Oh, Poor Mary ..I feel so sad for her! :'( :'(
Granny, if I remember, has only one tooth left and as Nat says she is 70...imagine what Mary must look like if she is looking 20 years older than her mother.
It sounds like she must have cancer, possibly breast cancer.
deb
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Nat actually writes: '..... Granny looking a fresh coloured dame of 70 while mother looks extremely aged as approaching 90.' Reading between the lines he appears to be saying that his grandmother does not look her age but his mother looks 20 years older than granny. :'(
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Nat actually writes: '..... Granny looking a fresh coloured dame of 70 while mother looks extremely aged as approaching 90.' Reading between the lines he appears to be saying that his grandmother does not look her age but his mother looks 20 years older than granny. :'(
I'm sure that is what he is saying. :)
And as Deb says, that his toothless 70 year old Granny is looking more healthy than his 49 year old mother, is very sad. We readers know that Mary won't die until next year and will be buried on the 29th of October. :(
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Today's entry is a nice example of Nat's wry sense of humour; I'll miss his wit :(
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So the father had to pay the money back?
Everyone knows Nat is a bit of a tight wad and would never have paid the Gray lad 3d for shovelling the coke ... or is that money supposed to have come from the Leas? I do think it seems a bit odd that Nathaniel says he had no recollection of this when you would expect him to remember such a thing and say he definitely didn't give him 3d. (If in fact he did not ;))
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It's a bit hard to follow to be honest, since Nat is more interested in making a joke of it than laying down the facts, but I think the 3d that Nat is supposed to have given him was just beer money and not (I think) the amount that was allegedly given to the lad for the coke that wasn't delivered. I think the 3d might be something peripheral to the case that just ended up getting discussed anyway. But I could very well be wrong.
Also presumably "I was but in as a witness" is a transcription error, since "put in" would make a whole lot more sense given that Nat is recounting things as if they were court proceedings.
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And as Deb says, that his toothless 70 year old Granny is looking more healthy than his 49 year old mother, is very sad.
I thought that, buried somewhere in the previous threads, someone had established Granny's probable birth year, making her in her mid-seventies in 1846? In 1851 Census she was recorded 80 .... :-\
Update:
According to Nat, Granny completed her 75th year on 14th June and celebrated the loss of her penultimate tooth! :o
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I read todays entry differently - perhaps im daft?
Firstly, i dont see it as jokey humour. Reads seriously to me.
Secondly, the events could be read a different way.
The young lad might have been given the money by a customer after Lea SOLD the coke, and he didnt hand it over. The shovelling could have been 3d for helping out as a casual laborer.
Or, as seems to be interpreted, he was supposed to deliver the coke, but didnt, and the shovelling tip was proof he had, as it had been shovelled.
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I read todays entry differently - perhaps im daft?
Firstly, i dont see it as jokey humour. Reads seriously to me.
I'm sure you're not daft, but Nat is definitely writing things up in a fairly sardonic way by using legal terminology such as "trial by jury" / "prisoner" / "witness" which clearly only applies in a very figurative sense. I'm fairly sure the lad wasn't held prisoner, and Lea's office definitely wasn't a court of law...
I've no doubt it was a very serious situation for the lad concerned. But I think it's also clear from the way that Nat writes it up that he wasn't very bothered personally. Which shouldn't be that much of a surprise; he's already been scolded in the diary for not caring about the plight of his own dying mother.
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As we've just started Page 20 of Part 8 it's just about time to lock this thread. I've started Part 9 a bit earlier than usual as I am going away on the 11th.
You can find Part 9 here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=500342.msg3571751
:'(