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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Northumberland => England => Northumberland Lookup Requests => Topic started by: ankerpep_52 on Wednesday 13 October 10 23:43 BST (UK)
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Robert Downey B.abt 1807/08. Occupation-Mariner. Married to Ann Fitchard.
1841 census, Tynemouth, N.Shields, Nbl, residence -Milbourn Place. He is not listed on the 1851 Census as may be at sea, wife Ann, her parents & her children residing 6 South St. By 1861 census, Ann is a widow. The Free BMD shows 12 Deaths for Robert.between 1851 & March 1862. The nearest ones may be Alnwick, Sept 1853,// Tynemouth, Dec 1858,// S.Shields Mar 1861 (Doubtful)as the Downeys normally did not have middle names. & lastly Carlisle Mar 1862. I checked Deaths at sea.- Would it be possible to locate his correct death, place and date. I would be most grateful for your help. Thank you Janet, London, Ontario, Canada
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Hi
To determine which was the correct entry - it would require sight of the death cert to see what age he was and any other info that could help
Unfortunately - the public do not have access to death certificates.
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Robert would have bee between 43 & 53 yrs of age when he died. Unfortunately the BMD does not give age at death during this time period of 1851-1861. Being a mariner I do not know if he died at sea or in North Shields. Would he belong to a mariner union in those days or be on a seaman's list of some kind. Is there any was to confirm if he still lived at 6 South St. in North Shields.during these years? Their dauhter Ann Fitchard was married in the Primitive Methodist Church, Chapel st. W. Tynemouth, Nbl. Is there any way Robert would have been buried there, and would there be a Prim.Meth.Church in North Shields at that time. I just am not sure how to go about finding out about his death or where buried. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Again thank you. Janet
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hi Janet, i don't think Methodist chapels had burial grounds,they were probably buried in the local C of E church.The online bishops transcripts don't have N/Shields on and Tynemouth only goes to 1847.N/Shields was in the registration district of Tynemouth so the 1858 death you mention would be a good contender although there is the possibility of death at sea as you say.
Steve
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Looking at a different Robert Downie in North Shields he was christened 1819 Stephenson St Particular Methodist Chapel , very close to Milburn Place,
He would most likely have been buried at Tynemouth cemetry in Preston Village at this time if he died in North Shields,
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Any chance this was your Robert?
Copy of Register of Christenings and Burials of the Chapelry of Newbiggin in the Parish of Woodhorn PBT/2/186/41
Robert Downie born April 6th 1808 Bapd. April 19th 1808 3rd Son To John Downie of Newbiggin, Taylor, by his wife Eiizth. Armstrong of Cresswell
[LDS Family Search Beta]
John Downie was a tailor as the baptism record shows but some of his relatives were sailors and shipowners, and some lived in North Shields. His parents were John Downie born 1850 in Dalvanie, in the Parish of Glenisla in Angus, and Mary Lisle about whom I have no details.
The surnames Downie and Downey are different but are often confused, particularly in England.
Ian Downie
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hi Janet, i don't think Methodist chapels had burial grounds,they were probably buried in the local C of E church.The online bishops transcripts don't have N/Shields on and Tynemouth only goes to 1847.N/Shields was in the registration district of Tynemouth so the 1858 death you mention would be a good contender although there is the possibility of death at sea as you say.
Steve
Thank you Steve-I will order this certificate & keep fingers crossed. I tried to obtain list of burials in Tynemouth & N. Shields, however I was not successful. Janet
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Looking at a different Robert Downie in North Shields he was christened 1819 Stephenson St Particular Methodist Chapel , very close to Milburn Place,
He would most likely have been buried at Tynemouth cemetry in Preston Village at this time if he died in North Shields,
Thank you, I am going to keep this in mind. Would it be unusual to have been baptised about 11 years from dob? The spelling of Downie could have been an error as in the late 1800's my grandpa & his brother were listed as Downie rather than Downey, but know spelling is very much questionable on census records. This is worth following up on as well. Janet
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The spelling Downey is usually but not invariably associated with Catholic people. However I know that English people often spell my surname that way even if I spell it out to them!
The Robert Downie baptized in 1819 was the son of William Downie and Mary Ann Cross. William was a Master Mariner (1827 North Shields Directory), Ship Chandler (1841 Census) and Ship Owner (1851 and 1861 Census). This Robert Downie and the one born in 1808 in Newbiggin were first cousins.
It isn't unknown for children to be baptized long after their births but it is much more common in the nineteenth century and earlier for the baptism to have been very soon after birth. I have not found a marriage date for William and Mary Ann but they had 10 children baptized between 1814 and 1833.
Ian
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Ian--This is all what I have for Downey's: Perhaps, you might be able to compare with your records.
Robert Downey b.1807/8 in Nbld.d. before 1873, married Ann Fitchard b 1810 N.Shields,Nbld.her parents, John b 1780,Forfar, Scot.(Seaman) Ann ?? b.1779/80 ,Tanfield, Durham.Died 1864 Tynemouth.Nbld.
Son #1-John b 1837/38 N. Shields Nbld-(d.1875 to 1880-location ?) Boat Bldr. M.Aug 1873,Tynemouth Nbld-Primitive Methodist Church). to Isabella Davidson(b. 25 Apr 1843, Butterwick, Durham)-her parents Robert(occup-Gardener)& Margaret Barrass B.1813/14)-Their 2 sons(#1) John B.1874 N.Shield Nbld.(church organ builder, married Eliz.Jane Deverall March 1895,Christ Church,Gateshead Durham) In 1930 they resided 17 South Villas,Camden Square, London.Their 3 children.-John Deverall -b1895/6, Elizabeth Jane b.1898/9 and Ethel Isabella b.1902/3. Brother to John was Leonard (b.Westoe, S. Shields Durham Nov 1875 (My Grandfather. -he immig to Canada 1904-retd 1905 & married Ethel Beatrice Hartley,b.1879s-London, Eng. Her parentsHenry B. 1839,St. george, Han Sq.Ldn & Ann Creed b.1834, Reading Berks,
Son #2-Robert,B. 1842, N.Shields, Nbld. (Age 18-tailor 1861)-No other info. Hoping you or someone will fill in some gaps especially before the 1840's
Thanks for reading all this.. Janet
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On the 1841 census the Downey family are at Milbourne St, North Shields
( Piece 825 Book 9 Folio 12 Page 16) The three of them are recorded as born within "this" county ( i.e. Northumberland)
The entry below them is a 60 yr old Ann Fletcher, not born in "this" county.
The enumerator within her "occupation" column entered "widow" before crossing it through. As far as the 1841 census went, widow in any column was incorrect , whether she was a widow or not, as marital status and relationships were not to be entered.
The enumerator entered 60 for her age. If Ann was aged 64, 63, 62, 61 or 60, then he ( no female enumerators until 1891) would have entered 60 in accordance with the rounding down instructions.
But he did not follow the instructions for Robert, leaving his age of 33 unrounded.
Could this Ann Fletcher be Ann Fitchard ?
As Steve has already mentioned North Shields BMDs were to registered within the Tynemouth Registration District. Similarly baptisms, marriages and deaths/burials of North Shields (Anglican) folk would have taken place in Tynemouth Parish church.
Looking for good candidates for the death registration of Robert should centre within the Tynemouth Reg Dist. Sailors usually lived close to their "home " port.
Although it was not impossible for a regular sailor to live in the Alnwick area, it was not usual. A crude survey on the 1881 census ( which allows search by occupation) shows one sailor/mariner in the Alnwick area, compared to over 400 in the Tynemouth/North Shields.
Then the South Shields area, including Westoe contained over 1000 sailors, more even than the number in North Shields area. To sailors there were virtually little difference between North and South Shields- their home port was simply "the Tyne". So I would not ignore any BMD registrations within the South Shields area.
I think there are dangers in paying too much much attention to spelling variations in surnames. when researching family history. The idea of accuracy in names is a fairly modern concept. Past folk did not seem to be bothered about it. Did not even William Shakespear write his own surname seven or eight different ways. My mother's maiden name of Gallagher had nearly 30 variations on the 1881 census in just the counties of Northumberland and Durham.
Michael
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You said you tried to get a list of burials for Tynemouth and North Shields ,North Shields library has a set of books listing people buried in the main Tynemouth cemetry and for Holy Cross I believe along with Christ church there are others but I cant remember to hand all of them , you can search them by name and date, this will give you the grave number ,the record then is easier find and to view,on the fiche reader ,
sorry just realised you are not in England ,you can email them with your enquiry or telephone,they are very nice ladies ,
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I went through all of the incorrect certificates received & I had ordered the 1858 Death for Robert-This one is 34 yrs & was a colliery labourer, residing at Stable Row, Seaton Delaval. Now back to square one---I do wish the ages were put onto the BMD-It would save ordering the wrong certificates and getting frustrated. Janet
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this is a great lead- I will get in touch with them.Thank you.
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I went through all of the incorrect certificates received & I had ordered the 1858 Death for Robert-This one is 34 yrs & was a colliery labourer, residing at Stable Row, Seaton Delaval. Now back to square one---I do wish the ages were put onto the BMD-It would save ordering the wrong certificates and getting frustrated. Janet
This Robert was the son of George Downie (tailor) and Maria Stark.
While looking for him, I found in my database the death of Robert Downie, son of your Robert and Ann Fitchard, who died in Glasgow on 22 September 1887 aged 38. He was married to Helen Anderson. If you send me a personal message with your email address, I will send you a copy of the certificate, which gives much more information than an English one.
Ian