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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Bhx7 on Friday 08 October 10 18:20 BST (UK)
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Hi All
I am brand new to military research and am wondering if any of you knowledgeable people would be able to help me. A few of my ancestors served in the Durham Militia. One served as a Sergeant and retired as a Corporal in 1809 in Gibraltar after serving 23 yrs 6 mths. His service included serving with the Prince of Wales Dragoons and the last 7 years with the 1st R V Bat.
My curiosity is how would I find out what he did during these years and also I would love to know what his Uniforms would have looked like. On the bottom of his release papers it states that he was no longer fit for duty - York Hospital 2 Oct 1809 and was discharged the same day. Would this indicate injuries during some conflict?
Any information would be gratefully received.
Thanks to all in advance
Regards
Brian
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Hi,
The National Archives may have Muster Rolls which will give you his location during his service and record things such as when they were ill etc. I have some and I wonder how he survived as around him after a battle his colleagues are listed as injured or dead.
Junev
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Hello Brian,
Have you tried the Durham Light Infantry Museum?...
http://county.durham.gov.uk/sites/dli/Pages/History.aspx
There are quite a few websites dedicated to the regiment including volunteer battalions. A quick 'Google' will connect you to what is available.
Here, is another...
http://www.lightinfantry.me.uk/dli.htm
Kind regards,
Peter.
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Lets start at the top.
A few of my ancestors served in the Durham Militia.
The militia were a home-defence force and never served abroad.
One served as a Sergeant and retired as a Corporal in 1809 in Gibraltar after serving 23 yrs 6 mths. His service included serving with the Prince of Wales Dragoons and the last 7 years with the 1st R V Bat.
Was this chap also with the Durham Militia for a time? Reading your post it was unclear to me.
What was his name?
PoW Dragoons would be the 10th Light Dragoons I assume. In the period of interest they didn't serve abroad until the back end of 1808 (Peninsular War).
1st Royal Veteran Btn was raised at Portsmouth in Dec 1802 from various men no longer fit for active service. In short they were a garrison battalion, freeing up regular battalions for field service. They were in England till 1805 then were sent to Gibraltar.
On the bottom of his release papers it states that he was no longer fit for duty - York Hospital 2 Oct 1809 and was discharged the same day. Would this indicate injuries during some conflict?
Most unlikely as I doubt very much he saw any campaign service. Sickness? Uld age?
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Brian,
This from the DLI Asscoiation website:
For 40 years the 68th [Regiment of Foot] then carried out garrison duties and served in Canada. The Militia in County Durham had been reorganised in 1759 by the Earl of Darlington and, during the Napoleonic Wars, was permanently mobilised. In 1853 a second battalion was formed, the older battalion becoming the Durham Fusiliers in 1869. In 1881 these two Militia battalions became the 4th and 5th Battalions of The Durham Light Infantry. The Volunteers evolved from a home defence Rifle Corps to become the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Territorial Battalions of The Durham Light Infantry in 1908, although the 6th Battalion retained the traditions of the old Rifle Corps, having no Colours and wearing black buttons.
http://www.dlisouthshields.org.uk/regimental_history.php
...and this from Wiki...
[edit] 1881 to 1908
1881 - 68th and 106th become 1st and 2nd Battalions The Durham Light Infantry, Militia Battalions renamed 3rd and 4th Battalions The Durham Light Infantry
1882 - 2nd Bn. went to Gibraltar and thence to Egypt in 1884.
1884 - Depot moved from Sunderland to Newcastle, shared with Royal Northumberland Fusiliers.
1885 - 2nd Battalion had been at home, Gibraltar and Malta, and now moved to Egypt, Battle of Ginnis, 30 December 1885. It was employed with the force under General Stephenson.
1887 - 2nd Battalion returned to India and was still there in 1899.
1890–1899 - 2nd DLI dominate Indian polo scene
1899 - 1st Battalion in Boer War, 2nd Battalion sent company of Mounted Infantry from India, 3rd and 4th Battalions fought in war also. 1st Bn. at Relief of Ladysmith, Colenso, Spion Kop and Vaal Krantz[1].
1900 - The 3rd and 4th Battalions of the regiment were formerly the 1st Durham Militia Fusiliers, and the 2nd or North Durham Militia. The head-quarters were at Barnard Castle and Newcastle upon Tyne respectively. The 1st volunteer battalion was at Stockton-on-Tees, the 2nd at Bishop Auckland, the 3rd at Sunderland, the 5th at Durham and the 5th at Gateshead.
1908 - 3rd and 4th Battalions exchanged numbers and designated Special Reserve Battalions, they trained the bulk of recruits for Regiment during 1914 – 18 War, never reformed after war and disbanded in 1958. 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Battalions merged to form the 151st Brigade of the 50th (Northumbrian) Division. Territorial Force created - 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th DLI formed.
Regards,
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Thanks all for the help so far. As I said I am truly just learning.
His name was Bartholomew Harrison. I have 2 lots of papers for him the first which states him as serving in the Durham Militia overall for 23 years 6 mths upto the 1st May 1802 and Sergent for the last 4 years and 9 mths of that. His age at this point is stated at 47 (Ref WO 121/63). Then the second Document, obviously his dishcharge papers, that states him as being discharged from 7th Aug 1809 in Gibraltar and also it states that he was in the Prince of Wales Dragoons from 6th May 1790 - 25th sept 1802then out on Pension for 3 mths before rejoining 1st Royal Veteran Battalion on 25th Dec 1802 till his discharge date. Age at discharge state as 54 (Ref WO 97/1140B).
After reading closer, as some of it is very hard to read, I noticed it say that his discharge was due to "Asthma and General Debility".
Does this information help any further.
Kind regards
Brian
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is this a relative of his?
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/chelseaPensionerSearchResult.action?sdrfnbr=970061006
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Hi Gortonboy
Unfortunately it only takes me to a subscription page
Regards
Brian
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I have 2 lots of papers for him the first which states him as serving in the Durham Militia overall for 23 years 6 mths upto the 1st May 1802 and Sergent for the last 4 years and 9 mths of that. His age at this point is stated at 47 (Ref WO 121/63).
Then the second Document, obviously his dishcharge papers, that states him as being discharged from 7th Aug 1809 in Gibraltar and also it states that he was in the Prince of Wales Dragoons from 6th May 1790 - 25th sept 1802then out on Pension for 3 mths before rejoining 1st Royal Veteran Battalion on 25th Dec 1802 till his discharge date. Age at discharge state as 54 (Ref WO 97/1140B).
Well he can't have been in both the Durham Militia from 1789-1802 (1st set of papers) AND the Prince of Wales Dragoons from 1790-1802 (2nd set).
Two entirely different units!
Also he can't be age 47 in 1802 (1st set of papers) and age 54 in the same year (2nd set).
Sounds like two different men of the same name.
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Neil
I stated that at discharge in 1809 he was aged 54 years and when he went to pension in 1802 he was aged 47 years. I know this age is right at both times and also that this coincides with age and birth. I can also be very positive that there was only one Bartholomew Harrison born in 1750's in St Andrews, Bishop Auckland which is stated on both the extracts. He is the brother of my 5 x Great Grandfather. Reading even closer it states on the 1st set of Records -
"His majesty's Durham Regiment Miliitia whereof The Earl of Darlington Colonel" ......aged 47years and by trade a Weaver hath served honestly and faithfully the said regiment Eighten Years and nine months and in the Prince of Wales light Dragoons and 4 years nine months was a Sergent.
The two sets of documents slightly change the times served in the different services but both mention the same ones. All the service dates between both sets of Papers tally so I would say same person.
Regards
Brian
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the link i gave is for a bartholomew harrison serving in the 6th Regt Of Dragoon Guards
he was born in c 1777 in bishop auckland.
he joined up in clonmel.tipperary in 1796
he was in the durham fencibles cavalry till 1800,,then transfered to the dragoon guards.
he was a weaver.
he was discharged due to incontinence of the urine and having a diseased testicle due to being kicked by a horse.
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Hi Gortonboy
Yes I believe he is one of my Harrison family, although not my direct branch. I have been given a copy of diary of this mans nephew in which he names his Uncle Bartholomew along with the rest of his fathers family. A very interesting and enlightening read. The thing about this man is that his baptism, unlike the rest of the family does not seem to want to be found.
Thank you so much for the interest and help. I remember when I first read the description of his injuries i cringed quite badly. Not the best thing to suffer from. This Bartholomew is also the nephew of the older Bartholomew mentioned in my earlier posts.
Thank you again
Brian
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I stated that at discharge in 1809 he was aged 54 years and when he went to pension in 1802 he was aged 47 years.
So you did, I didn't read that correctly.
I'm still dubious about the 10th Light Dragoons though. The Earl of Darlington was colonel of the Princess of Wales' Fencible Cavalry (mounted militia basically), so I suspect that's the unit meant. Would make more sense really, and would imply confusion with the similarly names 10th LD.
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Brian,
I have been researching the Durham Fencibles with a view to publication and was pleased to stumble across your relationship with Bartholomew Harrison. It appears that there were two of that name from Bishop Auckland serving together in the same regiment; one noted as being born around 1755 and the other in 1778. I had presumed that they could have been related as there were a few instances of father and son serving together. Your fascinating (but painful) medical notes are invaluable.
Artie.
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Hi Artie
The first Bartholomew Harrison bC1755 was my 5 x Great Grandfathers brother and the second b C1778 his nephew. I would be truly interested in your publication and any information on the Durham Fencibles. I find this whole side of my tree really fascinating. Could you tell me what the uniform would have looked like or have an illustration of it as it would be great for my tree. If you would like to contact me direct you can on ............
Kind regards
Brian
Moderator Comment: Email address removed. Please us our personal message system
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Artie
I would be interested in knowing more about your proposed book on the Durham Fencibles, as it possible that an ancestor of mine served in the regiment. I am plannning on visiting TNA to look at the muster rolls at some point, but am wondering if you have extracted the names of those who served.
I believe my ancestor John Smurthwaite from Durham may have served in the Durham Fencibles, as his first child was born in Ireland in 1799, so he presumably married there, but he had returned to Durham with his new wife by 1802. I cannot see why he would have gone to Ireland during this period of unrest unless on military service, and think that there was a good chance that he served in the Fencibles, who are known to have served in Ireland during that period. I also understand that most Fencible regiments were disbanded in 1802 following the temporary cessation of hostilities resulting from the Treaty of Amiens, which would fit in with his return home.
I would be grateful for any information.
John
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Thank you for your note, John.
I've had a quick check through my notes but cannot as yet find anyone of that name, certainly in the registers of commissioned or non-commissioned officers. He might not necessarily have been in either of the Durham Fencible regiments and I see that from your heading you refer to the Durham Militia, which was an entirely different set-up. The personnel were not all from this area and he might have been with another county or militia regiment but if you have the location of the child's birth I might be able to confirm whether the Durham regiments were in that region. Some personnel did marry local girls while they were in Ireland.
Artie.
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Hi Artie
The heading of the post was following that of the original thread, but I did pick up your post by searching for Durham Fencibles. I am aware of the Durham Militia being a separate body, as another ancestor of mine served in it.
I have no evidence that John Smurthwaite, born in Durham in 1778, served in the military. I do know that he was in Ireland in 1799, but cannot imagine why he would have gone there as a civilian at a time of rebellion. In the 1851 census his eldest daughter is recorded as having been born in Ireland. She was baptised in Durham in 1803 but her date of birth was recorded as 1799. His second daughter was born and baptised in Durham in 1802. John Smurthwaite's wife had been born in Irvine, Ayrshire, Scotland, recorded in the detailed Barrington-style baptism records of his children. I assume they met in Ireland, but what she was doing there is also a mystery. I therefore have no idea where in Ireland they married or where their daughter was born. After discovering that the Durham Fencibles had served in Ireland during the appropriate period, and been disbanded in 1802, I felt that it was a possibility worth following up.
I am planning to search for John Smurthwaite in muster rolls of regiments that served in Ireland during this period at TNA, but if you do come across him, I would be pleased to hear from you.
Kind regards
John
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I'll certainly let you know if I uncover your ancestor, John. If you are going to sift through all the regiments which served in Ireland during that period it might be like searching for the proverbial needle as the place was awash with British military units, many of which were constantly on the move.
Artie.
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Hi Arty
I recently visited The National Archives and had a look at the muster rolls of the Durham Fencible Infantry, plus a few other Fencible regiments. As you suggested, there is no trace of John Smurthwaite in the musters of the Durham Fencible Infantry, but in searching through the musters what jumped out at me was the name John Whitesmith. A John Whitesmith attested for the regiment on 26 May 1795 and was discharged on 5 June 1802 when the regiment was disbanded. Smurthwaite is a fairly unusual surname, concentrated in Co Durham and parts of Yorkshire, and is a variant of the surname Smithwhite. The surname Whitesmith is even more unusual, and it seems more than coincidental that a John Whitesmith was serving in a regiment of about 300 men in which one might have expected to find someone with the name John Smithwhite, or a variant. This leads me to suppose that perhaps John Smurthwaite enlisted in the Durham Fencibles under the assumed name of John Whitesmith. John Smurthwaite was baptised on 8 January 1778, so had probably been born in late 1777. If John Smurthwaite and John Whitesmith were one and the same person, he would have been about seventeen and a half years old when he enlisted and presumably had a good reason for enlisting under an assumed name.
The discharge date of 5 June 1802 at Liverpool fits with the first recorded event known for John Smurthwaite (apart from his own baptism) being the baptism of his second daughter, Jane Smurthwaite (who had been born on 3 June 1802) on 8 July 1802 at St Nicholas, Durham. His first daughter had been born on 11 August 1799 in Ireland (date from the baptism record; location from the 1851 census) but was not baptised until 2 January 1803, at Durham. It seems probable that he met his wife, Agnes Latta, who had been born in Irvine in Ayrshire, somewhere in Ireland in 1798.
I have found various references (from books on the history of Ireland that have been digitised on the Internet) to the Durham Fencibles and their involvement in the Battle of Arklow in June 1798, and have also noted the places mentioned in the muster rolls, but was wondering whether you have any further information, or have compiled a chronological listing of the regiment’s locations in Ireland.
Kind regards
John
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An interesting mystery, John, which poses two propositions:
(1) If your John Smurthwaite/Whitesmith was in County Wexford in August 1799 I suggest you look at births in and around Gorey where the Durham Fencible Infantry were based at that time.
(2) Could he have met his wife Agnes while they were stationed at Ayr during the summer of 1797 prior to their deployment to Ireland?
Regards,
Artie.
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Hi Artie
Thanks for your reply.
I had not picked up that the Durham Fencibles were stationed in Ayr in the summer of 1797. I noted that they were in Guernsey from 1795 to 1797, then various locations in Ireland. It had puzzled me as to why Agnes was in Ireland, so meeting John Smurthwaite in her home area makes much more sense, and adds further weight to John Smurthwaite being the same person as John Whitesmith.
I have come across various references to the book on the Durham Fencibles by Vane, privately published in 1912, of which only 100 copies were printed. The only copy I have been able to locate is at Durham Record Office. I will have a look at it the next time I am in the north east (I live in the south west of England), but if you have consulted it perhaps you could let me know whether it is worth looking at. I'd also be interested in knowing how your book is getting on.
Kind regards
John
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Thanks for your response, John.
Yes, I have a copy of Vane's small pocketbook which is really the only publication specific to the Durham Fencibles. It was a useful outline but for your own search it might not be worth a special trip up to Durham. Although Vane was a descendant of one of the original commanding officers and accessed what you have already gleaned at Kew, he obviously wasn't familiar with the minutiae or the geography of Ireland. His interpretation of some of the handwriting of records is suspect, which is one reason for my attempting to attack the subject, others being that I live here in the north east and that the cavalry regiment was coincidentally located for a couple of years in my wife's birthplace in County Tipperary.
I would be fascinated to discover if you do manage to pin down whether Smurthwaite and Whitesmith are one and the same person.
As far as publication is concerned, I am in the process of dotting some 'I's' and dotting the 'T's' before putting it to bed.
Regards,
Artie.
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hI
I have read with interest a your postings on the Durhams, and wonder if anyone can help. My ancestor was John Cathie he married Sarah Faulkner at St.Nicholas, Durham City in 1795. Occupation a sergeant in The Durham Fencibles in 1796 Sergaent Major John Cathie,viceWalton was promoted to Ensign. His first child Sarah was born in Guernsey then two more in Ireland by 1809 he was living in London.
Firstly can anyone one tell me where I can get further information on him, and secondly what was or is a Vice Walton?
Thanks
Alwina
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Hi Alwina
The only records of John Cathie's military service are likely to be the muster rolls of the Durham Fencibles held at The National Archives at Kew. I think Artie has extracted a lot of the information and may be able to help. The muster rolls will give information on the places he served in and his rank at various times, but no information on his ancestry or family.
Vice Walton suggests he was 'acting up' in place of someone called Walton, in the same way that a Vice-Chairman may act in place of the Chairman in certain circumstances. The Latin word Vice means 'in place of'.
Best wishes
John
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Thank you
Alwina
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Hi John
I have just been checking out names again and notice that your John Smurthwaite was married to and Ann Cathey 10.08.1794. Would she have been related to my John Cathie.
Also are the Durham Fencible regiment connected to the Scottish regiment as they seem to come up together in searches?
Regards
Alwina
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Hi Alwina
My John Smurthwaite, who was from Durham, married Agnes Latta, from Irvine in Ayrshire, some time around 1798, probably in Ireland (which is where their first child was born). Other evidence suggests he was born about 1778, so I think would be too young to marry in 1794. The surname Smurthwaite is concentrated around Durham City, so it would not be unusual to find a marriage of another John Smurthwaite.
Fencibles were special regiments raised during the French Revolutionary Wars, most of which had been disbanded by 1802. Considering the relative populations of the two countries, many more regiments were raised in Scotland than in England. Many Fencibles regiments served in Ireland during the rebellion of 1798.
John
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Hello Artie, I have been interested to hear about the Durham Fencibles, I had never heard mention of them or their connection to the Durham Light Infantry which is the Regiment my father (William Dover b1897 Sunderland) was in during WW1, he died when I was 7 years old in 1944, so it wasn't until 2001 that I found my fathers Medals which were among my eldest brothers possesions when he died, I have searched for his service records without success, is it possible they could be among the records that were destroyed, he appears to have two numbers 2081 and 275283 and a date of entry to France 28-10-15...., how can I know which Battalion he was in and which battles his Battalion would have faught in.......with these medals of my Fathers was one for an Eleazer Griffiths who according to the inscriptionon on it was a Trumpeter,( is that the same as Bugler ?) ... at Waterloo in the 13th Reg. Light Dragoons....but that is research for another day, in the winter maybe
Regards Galantry.
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The block of numbers 275001 to 300000 was allocated to the 7th DLI in March 1917. So he was the 283rd most senior man in the battalion on that date. This matches his early number 2081 which is almost certainly pre-war. They started at 1 in 1908 when they were formed.
The 7th only had one battalion In France - the 1st/7th - who were with 50th Division until 20 June 1918 when they transferred to 8th Division.
= http://www.1914-1918.net/50div.htm
= http://www.1914-1918.net/8div.htm
You can follow the battles they were involved in from these links. From November 1915 they were Pioneers.
Ken
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pension record for
eleazer griffiths born 1778 kidwelly camarthenshire
age at att 24 yrs att date 4 june 1802
discharge rank trumpet major
enlisted ipswich suffolk on 4 jun 1802 at age 24 for unlimited service
record sheet ,
pembroke fencible cavalry 25 jun 1795 - 18 aug 1800
durham fencible infantry 19 aug 1800 - 22 may 1802
13th light dragoons 4 jun 1802 - 24 sep 1828 , trumpeter 13 yrs 153 days , private 12yrs 325 days
in east or west indies 9 yrs 103 days [ on another image it states india as posting ]
waterloo 2yrs
discharged due to chronic rheumatism
he signed his own name was aged about 50 5 foot 8 tall brown hair hazel eyes and fresh complexion occ musician .
thats all the relevent info on 4 images for him
regards
trevor
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Thank you so much Ken for helping me understand my fathers WW1 records, also for adding the links which are very interesting and informative.
I noticed that you mentioned that they were Pioneers, which probably explains the collar badges in one of his military photo's which look as though they are crossed Pickaxe and Rifle.. Possibly representing Pioneers.
Thanks for your time and Interest, much appreciated.
Sheila (Galantly)
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Hello Trevor,
thank you so much, I am so grateful to have all this information I would never have thought of him enlisting in Suffolk, I wonder do you have any other information on this Eleazer Griffiths, I haven't been able to find his parents, but he had a daughter Margaret christened 1st May 1808 at the local church when he was Billited in Fordington Barracks Nr Dorchester Dorset in 1808.
Sheila (Galantly)
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hi sheila .
i,ve just found this parish birth record for an eliezer griffith 12 apr 1781 baptism in llangendeirne carmarthen .
fathers forename john
page 68
record source carmarthen baptism transcripts
data provider welsh active services .
this is all i can find i,m afraid
regards
trevor
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Thank you Trevor for this information about the Baptism of Eleazer Griffiths, gradually I am being able, with the help of kind people like yourself, to start to form a picture of Eleazers life, he retired or discharged in 1828 as Trumpet Major age 50 years due to Chronic Rheumatism....now to find out how long he had to enjoy the rest of his life, and maybe where he is buried.
Regards, Sheila
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hi sheila
a possible death in 1859 reg dist cardiff apr - jun vol 11a p 158
regards
trevor
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Thanks Trevor, I will go and have a search for this death record.
Regards, Sheila
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I signed up because I was so impressed with tmo's information about this individual and want to know more! I have spent countless hours trying to find such information on my ancestor George Ainslie. He died in Bombay in 1813 whilst serving with the 1st Garrison Battalion as Paymaster, having I think previously been a surgeon. I'm almost certain that he served in about 1798 in Gibralter with the Royal Garrison Battalion. In between these appointments I think he may have served with the 3rd RGB.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Nigel