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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: corisande on Thursday 07 October 10 15:33 BST (UK)
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Those with better knowledge of Dublin geography may be able to answer this for me. I am trying to find out exactly where John Ryan a British Intelligence agent was shot in Dublin 5th Feb 1921
John Ryan was, at least to all intents and purposes, a serving British soldier. But he was certainly also an undercover man, whose name may not have been Ryan. He had been targeted by the IRA for his part in the arrest of McKee and Clancy on the eve of Bloody Sunday.
I have a write up of what I know about Ryan and his death here (http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/castle-intelligence/thomson/ryan/ryan.html)
There seems to be some confusion as where Ryan was shot, It may all be the same place
1. Dwyer in The Squad gives the pub as Hyne's on the corner of Old Glouchester Place and Corporation St
2. Other sources (including would you believe a pub in Arizona, who claim to have bought an restored the original pub bar) quote he venue as "Phil Shanahan’s pub" in either Corporation St or Lower Foley St
3. And another source quotes that Ryan was shot at the Five Lamps, North Strand Road.
4. At the time Ryan was living at 16 Railway St with his wife
The only report I can find is in London Times which just says "a public house"
Can anyone help me make sense of the venue this shooting
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a few street name changes involved here so - be warned this gets messy!
Gloucester Place (marked on map below, but spelt Gloster) crossed both Gloucester street and Tyrone St - part of this later became Railway St. I think Gloucester Place may also have been known as Gloucester Diamond, and was redeveloped in the early 20thC
Thom's 1914 lists Corporation street as off Talbot street..I've marked Talbot street in green. In the street listing Corporation St is listed with the notation 'formerly Mabbot St' (I think the modern name is James Joyce st, with Mabbot Lane next to it)
At the Waterford st. of Corporation street in 1914 there's was a grocer, wine & spirit merchant named Mathew & Martin. Waterford street was earlier part of Tyrone St. .
I've marked my guess for the location for Mathew & Martin in blue.. it might fit with the location for Hyne's in later years
Shane
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Shane
Thanks very much for that I (think I) understand the changes in names now. I think therefore you are correct in positioning Hynes Bar - mind you with the redevelopment I can see it is an inexact science
This is the modern map
(http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/castle-intelligence/thomson/ryan/map-area.jpg)
So do you think Hynes and Shanahans were the same place. Certainly the place in USA that has bought the memorabilia believe that that is where Ryan was shot, but Dwyer is quoting Hynes.
I think I can rule out the place on North Strand Road
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Thom's 1927 lists a possible connection :
T. Hynes, tea & wine merchant, 12 Gloucester Place lwr
The listing is in the merchants and traders index, but I dont see him listed in the street listing.
Shane
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Foley Street is to the east of Mabbot street on the map, and named Montgomery street at the time.. all quite close to each other - so maybe one of the stories has the exact location mixed up.
Will check for Shanahan also..
Shane
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Yes
that looks about right for Hynes, and he is a wine merchant as well. I would put it on the cross of Gloucester Place Lower and Lower Sean MacDermott
I gather the purpose of Ryan living in Railway St was to keep an eye on the pub where Collins was known to frequent.
McKee and Clancy, the two IRA men Ryan is believed to have fingered were holed up at Sean Fitzpatrick's house 36 Gloucester Street. I don't know if he could see both the pub and that house from his front window, but it does not look as if it was far off.
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just to complicate things...
Thom's 1927 shows a P. Shanahan grocer & publican - he appears to located at the Amiens Street end of Foley Street.
Shane
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so maybe one of the stories has the exact location mixed up.
That is the most probable explanation. Trouble these days with the web is that if a bit of duff info gets posted, before you know it, it has been cut and pasted many, many times. If in addition, a pub in Arizona has bought the "real McCoy" for the site of Ryan's shooting, they have a vested interest in continuing to believe that was it.
There is a Wikipedia bit on Shanahan the man, but nothing about a pub he might have owned.
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Amiens Street end of Foley Street.
So we seem now to be heading for them being two different pubs
The Shanahan seems to be
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Shanahan which fits with your "P Shanahan"
oops wrong one, should be
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Shanahan
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The clues do point to two different locations at about opposite ends of the same block - one at a junction of Gloucester St and Railway/Waterford and the other at the junction of Foley st and Ameins street..
nothing definite.. but some ideas...
Given his history I wonder if Philip Shanahan's involvement was in organizing or planning the shooting in some way, and that is resulting in crossed information. Another alternative may be that his Foley St pub was a alternate location where they were keeping an eye out for Ryan. I suppose it's also possible that he had a business involvement in the Gloucester St premises ?
Shane
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some details from the IT Mon 7 Feb 1921
John Ryan, a plain clothes member of the military foot police was shot dead
in Dublin by three men.
further details on pg5...
extract ...
...military policeman named Ryan shot in Hynes's public house,
Gloucester place....lived with his wife at 16 Railway street.. went
to Hynes with another man about 10 o'clock...several shots fired
... his brother-in-law went to his assistance...
I'll send you a scan later...
Shane
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Thanks Shane
This is the link to the pub in Arizona
http://www.robbiefoxs.com/rfhome.htm
They have researched the history of Ryans shooting, but (and here I risk winding up some readers) Arizona is the place that bought old London Bridge thinking it was Tower Bridge.
To be fair to them there are a number of references to Shanahan's as the scene of the shooting, but it may all link back to this bar in Arizona!
Report in Irish Times says he was with another man, but Witness Statements quoted by Dwyer do not mention another man with Ryan.
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....
They have researched the history of Ryans shooting, but (and here I risk winding up some readers) Arizona is the place that bought old London Bridge thinking it was Tower Bridge.
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not true... that myth is debunked
There are photos of the purchaser examining the old bridge around the time of purchase, and planning the move to his new development - I think named Lake Haversham ?
Shane
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Touchee, mea culpa :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge
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lots to learn from watching QI !
turns out the place is named Lake Havasu
Shane
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found Hynes in 1914...so to fill out the dates and locations at that time
1914
P. Shanahan, 134 Foley Street - grocer and publican
near to Beaver St and at the Amiens st end of street
Thomas Hynes, 19 Lwr Gloucester place - tea, wine and spirit merch.
at the junction of Lwr Gloucester place & Lwr Gloucester St
Shane
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Thanks Shane
They are certainly 2 separate pubs, I have altered my map now
(http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/castle-intelligence/thomson/ryan/map-area.jpg)
He has to have been shot in one or the other. Certainly Paddy Kennedy's Witness Statement quoted by Dwyer says Hynes . So it cannot have been Shanahans
On that basis it looks as if the pub in Arizona is wrong in claiming to have the original bar complete with a gunshot cracked mirror from Ryan's murder
Now will I tell them... :)
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Hynes is definitely nearer to Ryan's address at the Gardiner St end of Railway st - I think that's more likely as it fits more of the clues, although I think there could be a Shanahan connection somewhere along the line.. it's just got scrambled somewhere along the line.
If Shanahan's was closed down as the Robbie Fox website states, then it looks like he opened up again at the same location soon after.
As with many of these incidents I'm amazed at the sequence of events - they all either show evidence of great intelligence work or lack of personal security by the undercover men... or a combination of both. For Ryan to have lived so close to Shanahan's a known haunt of Collins etc, and near to the other agents he informed on seems to be very lax
Shane
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As with many of these incidents I'm amazed at the sequence of events - they all either show evidence of great intelligence work or lack of personal security by the undercover men... or a combination of both. For Ryan to have lived so close to Shanahan's a known haunt of Collins etc, and near to the other agents he informed on seems to be very lax
Shane as I understand it he was deliberately put there. They all had complete lack of personal security - virtually all of them had been through the war, and were, I believe, impervious to fear. Though having said that 5 of them are said to have committed suicide during this time (though again I have only found one)
What have to try to do now is to see if Ryan was John Ryan, or if he was, like Bryan Fergus Molly, somebody else. Trouble is "John Ryan " is much more ubiquitous than "Bryan Fergus Molloy"
I also need to establish whether Shanahans was a known haunt of Collins, though given the owner it is likely. And take a look at Hyne as well.
What is interesting to me is that he chose to have his wife there at Railway St (again assuming that the lady was his wife and not another agent).
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Following passage from My Fight for Irish Freedom- Dan Breen, re Peader Clancy & Dick Mc Kee.Both had been observed by a military police sergeant named James Ryan as they entered Fitzpatrick's house off Gloucester Street in the early hours of Bloody Sunday. Ryan who lodged off Gloucester Street and who had been in intelligence work for some time,telephoned the information to Dublin Castle and Mc Kee and Clancy were captured in the raid which followed about 2am.
The informer James Ryan, did not long survive them.Known as Shankers Ryan he was a brother of Becky Cooper, a brothel keeper.His brother in law was with him in Hynes 'Pub in old Gloucester Place about 10am on Saturday 5th Feburary 1921,when he was executed for his treachery.For some time prior to Bloody Sunday we had suspected him of spying, but our request for permission to shoot him was turned down.There was not sufficient evidence against him we were told.
Hope there might be something there for you.
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Thanks schneider,
That is very useful
There are some nice extra bits there, so I know know who was with him, and have an extra pair of names - sister and her husband
One interesting effect of "cut and paste" on the web is that someone wrote that he was the "sister of a madam" , rather than the "brother" and there are a dozen web sites carrying the error
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I have seen the nickname given to John Ryan of "Shankers" in a number of places
Perhaps I will regret asking the question, but why would a man be nicknamed "Shankers?"
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I have seen the nickname given to John Ryan of "Shankers" in a number of places
Perhaps I will regret asking the question, but why would a man be nicknamed "Shankers?"
all I can think of is something possibly derived from 'Shank's mare'' - as in "he has no bicycle so he had to take the Shank's mare"
Shane
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question for you about these undercover men... do you know roughly how many there in total where and how many were not discovered ?
Most of the stories seem to be about the discovery of them... usually followed by a shooting. Going by the intelligence files in the Castle and the various raids and arrests by RIC/DMP etc there was some success on that side..
Shane
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how many there in total where and how many were not discovered ?
Short answer is that nobody knows (or that nobody has researched them). Even the bodies have not been properly researched, to ascertain if they were undercover or not.
The 3 main sources of Intelligence men were
1. DMP, but as time went on they really did not enter the equation
2. Military Intelligence. Until Jan 1921 under control of Gen Boyd, after that moved to Police Control under Gen Tudor
3. Deep undercover men run by Basil Thomson - in effect MI6 in London
The Military Intelligence numbers of undercover men is estimated at from 100 to 200
Basil Thomson's men are particularly difficult to pinpoint as virtually nothing appears in the records (or has been deliberately removed). Molloy, Ryan, Fovargue, Digby Hardy (Gooding), Bell are examples of Thomson men
Effectively the IRA through the Castle moles, knew virtually all the names and addresses of the Military Intelligence men. And same for DMP obviously
Thomson ran his lot out of London to avoid Irish leaks, and to that extent was more successful in disguising the size of his operation
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thanks
Shane
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His sister Becky Cooper, seems to be a colourful character. But I cannot find who her brother was, who was stranding in the bar with Ryan when he was shot.
Becky Cooper was apparently the model for :-
A Samuel Becket novel, Mercier and Camier, is known to refer to her. In the novel frequent visits are paid to "Helen's Place", a bawdy house modeled on that of legendary Dublin madam Becky Cooper (much like Becky Cooper, Helen has a talking parrot).
Beckett's Sanies II though apparently set in the American Bar in Paris, it was in fact inspired by a visit to Becky Cooper’s Dublin brothel.
And Kitty Ricketts is a character in Ulysses that Joyce based on the real life brothel madam Becky Cooper. Becky Cooper lived in Railway Street (former Tyrone St) until the late fifties.
Terry Fagan's Monto -- Madams, Murder and Black Coddle, says that famous madam Becky Cooper (she puts in a scary appearance in the poem Sanies II) owned a talking parrot.
She also appears in the Dublin street ballad Dicey Reilly :-
Long years ago when men were men and fancied May Oblong
Or lovely Becky Cooper or Maggie’s Mary Wong
One woman put them all to shame, just one was worthy of the name,
And the name of that dame was Dicey Reilly.
She does not appear in the 1911 census - maybe they did not record the brothels in Montgo. Nor does Ryan appear in Tyrone St in the census
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Came across two possible meanings re Shankers.
Lazy fellow who by skulking around throw their proportion of labour on the shoulders of their comrades in the army are called scrim shankers.
The other ulcers associated with clap.
Have a nice day
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The other ulcers
I rather feared that it might be something like that when I asked the question! :-[
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For completeness I am adding this link to The Squad thread. One of the men who shot Ryan was Eddie Byrne.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=406100.msg3465485#msg3465485
See post #68 on that thread. There was me thinking that all I had to do was find the exact pub. It now turns out that there are conflicting Witness Statements from members of the Squad claiming to have done the shooting
Was it Bill Stapleton, Eddie Byrnes and Paddy Kennedy
Dwyer's The Squad (p210) draws on Witness Statements of Paddy Kennedy and Bill Stapleton. A hit squad of Bill Stapleton, Eddie Byrnes and Paddy Kennedy walked into Hynes' pub on the corner of Old Glouchester Place and Lower Sean Macdermott St and shot Ryan dead. They left Jimmy Conroy outside on guard. Ryan had entered the pub with his brother in law (I assume husband of Becky Cooper, but he is not named). Ryan was standing facing counter and reading the morning newspaper. The barman had meantime made himself scarce. They held him up, and searched him, but he had no guns or papers on him. They asked him his name, he said "Ryan" and they then shot him and left the pub in the direction of the Gloucester Diamond.
Or was it Tom Keogh and Bernard Byrne
Bernard C Byrne covers the shooting of John Ryan, British Spy, shot 5th February,1921 in his Witness Statement. He says that Headquarters informed the Squad that they had located Ryan and that he could be found around mid-day practically any day drinking in a public house in Gloucester Diamond, on the opposite corner to the small church then known as the Tin Chapel. It was decided that Tom Keogh and Bernard Byrne should check out the pub. They were accompanied by Slattery. Eddie Byrne, Vincent Byrne, Frank Bolster, Jimmy Conroy, Stapleton, Leonard, Mick Kennedy and Mick Reilly. Keogh and Bernard Byrne had a good description of Ryan. The rest of the group were the covering party. Tom Keogh and Bernard Byrne entered the public-house by a door on the right hand side, called for two drinks, surveyed the customers. They narrowed their choice of target down to one man who was sitting on their immediate right deeply immersed in a study of The Early Bird, a racing paper. They were unable to see his features, but believed from his general build that he was the man in whom we were interested. Keogh nudged Byrne to make a move, and Byrne approached the man and asked him what they were tipping for some particular race. The man had to lower the paper. Immediately he did so they knew it was Ryan. Without any delay Keogh fired on him, with Bernard Byrne doing likewise. Ryan was dead immediately.
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There was me thinking that all I had to do was find the exact pub. It now turns out that there are conflicting Witness Statements from members of the Squad claiming to have done the shooting
If you are relying on the Witness Statements for your research then you are going to encounter this problem a lot. I did a lot of research into Frank Thornton a few years ago and found the Witness Statements so contradictory I gave up using them.
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If you are relying on the Witness Statements
I never said I rely exclusively on Witness Statements. But I do use them to try to draw a story together. It would be extremely foolish to disregard Witness Statements altogether.
And just because one man's WS shows him being economical with the truth, does not mean to say they all are. One uses newspaper reports, books, British Nat Archives and so on to try to get at what happened.
It is somewhat pointless getting involved in a discussion on the general validity of witness statements, you need to start another thread for that. I would like to keep this specific thread on track by trying to draw out any specific evidence on the shooting of John Ryan
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Phil Shanahan's pub on the corner of Foley Street and Corporation Street was where McKee and Clancy were the night before they were killed. it was a constant meeting place for Michael Collins and his senior men. Shanahan had fought in Jacob's in the 1916 Rising, and in 1918 would be elected in the Dublin Harbour constituency.
They left the pub and went to the place they were sleeping for the night (they were on the run and sleeping in different houses every night). They were followed by Shankers Ryan, who hotfooted it off to grass them up. They were murdered next day in Dublin Castle.
A contract was then put out on Shankers Ryan, and he was killed while drinking in Hynes' pub in the Gloucester Diamond.
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There is much more info, photos, etc on Shanahan's including my 2018 comment https://comeheretome.com/2017/07/13/phil-shanahans-monto-pub/
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Lovely piece - though the person who says the RIC didn't have barracks in Dublin is incorrect - here are a few photos from the Irish Constabulary forum; there were RIC barracks ringing outer Dublin in what are now suburbs but were then farmland:
https://irishconstabulary.com/dublin-t1618.html
I'm still baffled by the constantly repeated story that Shankers Ryan was the brother of the prostitute Becky Cooper. Can't link them anywhere.