RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Tracey Joy Kelly on Tuesday 05 October 10 05:04 BST (UK)
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Hi I was thinking that Henry Thomas may of had to ask permission to get married if he was a convict. he married a lady by the name of Elizabeth (no last name mentioned)
is there anyone who could check this out for me please.
I would love to know where Mary Ann Underwood came from. I was told that she came from America. All i can find is her marriage to Charles Edward Thomas and the births of her children.
I dont know where she was born or where she died. Is it possible that she did come from America?
i was wondering if someone could please help me link James Underwood with Mary Ann underwood.
james was a convict on the charlotte ( not sure why he was a convict would love to find out)
after he did his time he went back to England and brought his two brothers back to Australia. they ended up in Tasmania. Apparently this is where my great great great grandmother Mary Ann Underwood comes from. i was wondering if anyone could help me prove this.
could someone help me connect James to Mary Ann please. she may have been born in New South Wales. i dont have much information on this man. only that he was a convict on the ship Charlotte, which came over with the first fleet. i would love any information you could help me with..
eg did he marry over here or was he already married
Was Mary Ann born in England or New South Wales as she wasnt born in Tasmania (at least i dont think so)
IF i could have some help on the following i would appreciate it.
many thanks
1. Mary Ann Underwood may have come from USA, could she have gone straight to Tasmania or was going to Tasmania in those days a 2 or 3 ship journey.
2. Is there any way that a person could find details about Gold mines in Broken Hill NSW. records i am looking for would be somewhere in between 1915- 1935. apparently the mine is still working today although not producing anything.
3. The Solomon Islands - are they included in Australia and if not how do i go about looking for records, eg a person going there by ship, did they have census records?
4. Henry was James grandfather. is there any way to find out who his father was and if it was his father that came out to Tasmania. I would very much like to know if the family came out as free people or convicts.
5, Charles Edward Thomas may have died in Victoria. Can someone please do a search for me to see if this is correct. Also did Mary Ann Thomas die in Tasmania or Victoria.
Thank you for your time
Tracey Kelly
Extra Information that i have.
Father: Charles Edward Thomas born 1835
Mother: Mary Ann Underwood (born around 1844 but if someone knows and can tell me i would appreciate it)
Charles and Mary Ann were married on 14 April 1860 it states that Mary was a minor ( i am assuming it means she was about 16 (is that right). they were married at the Independent Chapel in
Launceston.
I have only just discovered that James was born in Tasmania and who his parents were so any information would be greatly appreciated.
James was known by a few middle names
James Frederick Thomas (as stated by his death certificate)
James George Thomas (as stated on his patent records and census records in western australia)
this was because his parents only registered the last name. BUT on the death certificate it states his name as being James Frederick Thomas.
This man is my great great grandfather. he came to western australia in 1890 and married my great great grandmother in 1891. (her name was Sarah-Jane)
i have researched him starting in western australia in 1890 until he disappears in 1916. He took off with all the money and his wife's sister and left an amazing woman to raise 7 children by herself.
He went to Broken Hill in NSW and owned a Gold mine there.
I have reason to believe that he went to the solomon islands but i have no idea how to start researching there. is there anyone who could give me some tips on how to find where he went??
I would also like to know as much as possible about James, parents and family history. I would dearly like to know how the families came to be in Australia if possible.
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sorry i forgot to add the reason why i have put this with Tasmania is because apparently that is where he was born and where his family come from.
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Hi Tracey,
There were five children born to Charles and Mary Ann Thomas that I can find.
Charles Edward Henry born 21/05/1861
Name not recorded born 31/05 /1864 male child.
Name not recorded born 15/08/1866 male child.
Louisa born 21/02/1869.
Name not recorded born 31/01/1875 male child.
All registered at Emu Bay Tasmania.
I can give you the registration numbers if you need them.
Johngirl.
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Hi again Tracey,
Sorry I could not find a birth for a Mary Ann Underwood in Tasmania that fits only one born 1849 in Launceston but a bit young to be married in 1860.
Johngirl.
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hi Johngirl
thanks for that :) after adding the dates .. James Thomas died 1952 at the age of 87 years. i have found him to be the
31.05.1864 child that is un named. its interesting because James called himself many names.
i was wondering if you had any information on his mother and father
Charles Edward Thomas and
Mary Ann Underwood
i am really interested in trying to find out how long these branches of family lived in Tasmania for and where they actually originated before migrating to Tasmania
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johngirl it states on their marriage certificate that she was a minor.. she couldnt be that young ... could she??
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is it possible that she could of migrated to Tasmania?
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How have you identified your James Thomas, who goes to WA, as a son of Charles Edward Thomas and Mary Ann Underwood...what is on his marriage and death certificates please?
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Hi there
i actually knew that james was married in Albany and in a census it also mentions my great great grandmother living with him after they were married. there are then. so i researched him and found a newspaper article which gave me alot of information that tied into the postal address's and the census's.
a family member told me that he was an american inventor. because a rootschat member found some of his patents on a canadian website, i just assumed this was correct.
he went away around 1916 from WA and i couldnt find him on any documentation at all.
Then i had a phone call from a family member saying she has his death certificate. it stated his parents names, Charles Edward Thomas, Mary Ann Underwood
it states that he was born in tasmania
it also stated that his middle name was Frederick not George like in western australia. he came back to western australia and died over here in 1952.
the fact that he didnt have a first and middle name when registered would explain why he could get away with changing his name like he did all the time
even though i am his great great grandaughter.. i will say that the guy was incredibly smart.. even though he was like a con man.
i wish i had a copy of the death certificate myself but i dont.
i followed him through his time line ... to gold mines and building hotels and bewerys, he had 8 children all up.
is there any more information u would like, i am not sure if i have given you the right stuff
if i can i will upload a photo of him
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One thing i can tell you is that James Thomas was a mining engineer in most of his jobs. he owned 3 gold mines in western australia and became extremely wealthy.
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i found the Archives office of tasmania and they have
Charles Edward Thomas was born in 1835 in Longford
and his mother and father
Henry Thomas and Elizabeth ? got married 1836 in Longford
i had a quick look on ancestry and it says that Charles Edward Thomas dies in Victoria. which may explain James Thomas coming to Western Australia.
it would be interesting to know if the whole family went over.
still trying to find out more information about mary ann underwood
Any help on locating Mary Ann Underwood would be appreciated.
Any Help would be greatly appreciated !!
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Aussiemumwif4kids,
Just for interest where in WA did James Thomas have his gold mines, my wife's grandfather had mines at Mt Magnet early 1900s to 1940s
Gerry
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hi Gerry
from what i can make out his mines were centralized around coolgardie.
i definately know one was in Leonora that was his third mine around 1914 - 16
his first mine was called Star of the morning. he sold that and had a large profit ,
His second mine was a mining syndicate the mine was called
The North Bardoc
the syndicate was made up of:
Hon Sir George Shenton MLC
Hon Sir G Lee Stere MLA
Hon W.E.Marmion MLA
G Yorke Hubble Esq JP and
Jas George Thomas Esq (my great great grandfather)
from what i can see he was a mining engineer as well as owner from when he moved to Western Australia in 1890 until he disappears in 1916. i was told he went to the solomon islands but have no idea how to trace him there.
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James Thomas.. known as James Frederick Thomas on his death certificate, James George Thomas in Western Australia.
I found 3 gold mines that he had in Western Australia from 1895 - 1916. he then went to NSW broken hill and had a gold mine there. IS there any way i can find out when he was in broken hill and if he indeed owned a gold mine..
He was born in Tasmania so any information on his family would be wonderful, i have just found out his mother may have been american. any information would be great.
Apparently his father dies in Victoria. so maybe the family moved to Victoria. any help on this would be appreciated
Any information would be helpful
many thanks Tracey kelly
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Hi Everyone i have been told that his mother may have come from the USA . if this was true.. did she go directly to Tas?? or would it have taken 2 ships to get her there?
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This is a photo of James Thomas
Apparently he is also in the paper, I am not sure if its because he owned the first car in Western Australia (as apparently hes pictured in a car) or if it was for one of his inventions. If anyone knows how i can locate it i would be really appreciative.
Thank you for your time.
Tracey Kelly
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could someone please tell me what forms of transport were used in Australia from 1915-1940 were trains or planes around back then?
how would someone get from Western Australia to New South Wales.
or for that matter
New South Wales to Solomon Islands?
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Hi Tracey,
With reference to the tree you mentioned on Ancestry which notes that Charles Edward THOMAS died in Victoria, the year they give is 1925 at Box Hill. There is a death registered:
Chas THOMAS
Death Place: Box Hill, Victoria
Age: 98
Reg Year: 1925
Reg Number: 8301
I assume that they have a copy of this certificate, but you should contact them or purchase a copy yourself to confirm, and it should tell you whether or not he was born in Tasmania. They also have details of Charles' origins, so again you should contact them to share information.
They also claim that it is the same Charles who had a relationship and several children with Emma LUCAS from 1882. Assuming that Mary Ann died somewhere between 1875 (the birth of her last child) and 1882, I can really only see one possible:
Name: Mary Thomas
Death Date: 12 Aug 1881
Reg Place: Hobart, Tasmania
Age: 60
Reg Number: 3315
After 1882:
Name: Mary Ann Thomas
Death Date: 3 Apr 1885
Reg Place: Hobart, Tasmania
Age: 42
Reg Number: 2329
Name: Mary Thomas
Death Date: 1 Dec 1892
Reg Place: Beaconsfield, Tasmania
Age: 70
Reg Number: 32
You may find it difficult to trace Mary Ann's origins without supporting documentation. Stating that she was a minor when she married simply meant that she was under 21 years of age. She may have been born in Tas or she could have come from elsewhere, whether it was from the mainland or from overseas. The Tas immigration records are quite poor, and not all have survived. The Archives web site is in the process of transcribing them so continue to check back. You can also check the newsapapers, as sometimes incoming passengers were named. It might also help to check out other UNDERWOOD families who may have been around Launceston at the time they were married.
Debra :)
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could someone please tell me what forms of transport were used in Australia from 1915-1940 were trains or planes around back then?
how would someone get from Western Australia to New South Wales.
or for that matter
New South Wales to Solomon Islands?
All forms of transport were used to travel around Australia, but not all passengers were recorded and not all records have survived. With a name as common as your James I think you would have a hard time sorting him out from the others.
Ships were regularly going to the Solomon Islands. You can read a basic history of the islands on Wikipedia, and the best place to find what was going there in the times that interest you is to read the papers. Just put in the words "Solomon Islands" and choose your span of years.
I think their archival records are kept in Honiara, but I would contact the National Archives here in Australia and ask for their advice. Make a list of exactly what you want to find out and then ask if such records exist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_islands
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/
http://www.naa.gov.au/services/family-historians/index.aspx
Debra :)
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Debra
thank you so much for looking into this for me. I really appreciate it.. you have given me a few avenues now that i can look into. i wasnt too sure where to look before.
i must admit its hard to look up information on someone in Tasmania when u live in western australia lol.
some how i dont know if the charles u have written about here is the same one.
if i take 98 years from 1925 it ends up being 1827 and the charles edward thomas i am looking for is born in 1835, this is all so confusing. i think i am going to have to go to Battye library and have a bit of a look.
thank u so much for helping me it is very much appreciated
i have traced James since he came to western australia in 1890 he was a very interesting man.. he was very smart.. but a con artist too. i am really interested in what happened to him after leaving western australia with his wifes sister.
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Debra
I have just been reading over what u have written again and i was wondering. How do i find the family tree that mentions that charles married Emma Lucas as i am interested in learning about their children
many thanks
Tracey Kelly
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Charles THOMAS who died in 1925 is buried alone at Box Hill Cemetery:
THOMAS Charles
Date of Service: 08/09/1925
Location: P 866
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thank u Merlin
could it be that the wife was buried in the plot next to him? would that be a possibility?
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Sorry, no :)
You can have a browse around yourself anyway:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ayo/
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:( thanks merlin :) i appreciate u helping me
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i was able to find out what one of my convicts was convicted of in wa as there was a book about convicts at my state library. Does anyone know if there is a book the same in NSW and is it possible to find out why James Underwood was sent out to Australia (NSW) as a convict??
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Are you talking about the convict JAMES UNDERWOOD (1771-1844) shipbuilder & merchant?
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hi merlin yes i think i am. he was listed in the first fleet. a relative gave me papers today to say that we were related to him. after he was freed from his conviction he went back to england and brought out his brothers to Tasmania. i would love to know more information about this person
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Hi Tracey,
There is a family tree on Ancestry which details the children of Charles Edward THOMAS and Emma LUCAS. I am not sure if you need a subscription to view it, but most public libraries have free access to all Ancestry content. The children were born in Tasmania and are also listed on the Tas Archives site here http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?detail=1&type=P&id=225235 the unnamed male and female children were apparently named Eva Victoria and Carl Edwin Lucas THOMAS.
I have no idea if this whole scenario is correct - they also have Emma in a later relationship with Patrick SUMMERS, and dying in Devonport, Tasmania in 1904.
Debra :D
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Tracey, I have a large history on James Underwood far too much to post here including copies of many documents etc. He was in shipbuilding, merchant & trade business with my OH's 4x G-Grandfather.
He did not arrive on the First Fleet, he arrived on the last ship of the Third Fleet.
James Underwood was aged 18 when he was found guilty of breaking, entering and stealing of goods valued at £3/13/9d.
Sentenced to 7 years transportation and sailed for Sydney on the 'Admiral Barrington' on 27/3/1791 and arriving at Sydney Cove as the last ship of the Third Fleet on 16/10/1791.
Can you tell me how you think you are related to him?
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Regarding Charles THOMAS - this is an old posting, but you can try contacting this person http://genforum.genealogy.com/australia/messages/44815.html
Debra :D
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well i went to a relatives house today and she had an old box of stuff and she said i could go through it.
i was asking about my great great great grandmothers name. her name was mary ann underwood.
and she said have a look in the box and it had his name and it was another relatives research. she had circled his name and she had a marriage certificate also details about him being on a boat called Charlotte.
this other relative Bev said that he went back to england and got his two brothers. and started up a business.
but from the sounds of it she thinks that he went to Tasmania.
its all so weird. i am trying to link them up now
James Thomas was my great grandfather his mother was Mary Ann Underwood. i am trying to figure out how he is related .. any ideas?
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There were a lot of UNDERWOOD convicts some to NSW & others to TAS. I know of at least six James Underwood's that arrived four to NSW & two TAS.
James UNDERWOOD who I already stated arrived on the 'Admiral Barrington' in 1791 in NSW.
He did bring his two brothers Joseph & William out to NSW where they were in business also with some of my OH's relo's & others.
They did not live, marry, or die in Tasmania. I have their complete histories & I am in direct contact with the descendants of their families.
The James UNDERWOOD you speak of that arrived on the 'Charlotte' in 1788 was tried at New Sarum 1786 & sentenced to 14 years transportation to NSW is a totally different unrelated person.
Please don't confuse the two of them as you will only end up with all the incorrect information.
If I can be of any further assistance just ask & I will do my best to help you.
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Hi Merlin
well both ladies that i got this information from are in their 80's.
ok well i have managed to go back to 1860 to Mary Ann Underwood marrying Charles Edward Thomas
in Tasmania. but
there is no proper birthdate for her in Tasmania. so i am thinking that she came from NSW. are there any Mary Ann Underwoods born in NSW around 1840 - 44 as the mary ann was a minor on the marriage certificate.
To be honest i just want to be able to find out how my family got to Australia. it doesnt matter if they were famous or not (would be nice lol) but its not the be all end all.
if u could help me find this link i would appreciate it
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Hey Merlin
I have a Thomas Underwood who had a daughter named Mary Ann Underwood
James had a son named Thomas underwood.. am i going around in the dark still or does this sound ok?
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she had circled his name and she had a marriage certificate also details about him being on a boat called Charlotte.
Who's marriage certificate is this?
Can you give me the exact details from it or send me a copy?
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merlin just sent u some information. but i dont know if it will be much help
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There are many names here, but I think I am understanding that you have James Frederick Thomas d. Western Australia 1952, aged 87yrs. And a death certificate that has him born to Charles Edward Thomas and Mary Ann Underwood, Tasmania.
Karrakatta Cemetery has a date of death for James Frederick Thomas as 16 Dec 1952, 87 years so I am assuming this is your James Thomas.
WA BDM index has James Frederick Thomas d. 1952 but there are no parents names listed. This does not appear to match the death certificate information that you have.
What other details are on the death certificate?. Does this ft with other information that you know about him - marriage, childrens names etc. Can you please give all the details on the death certificate.
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Hi Wevenhoe
I dont have the death certificate, my 3rd cousin does. both June and Bev are James Thomas's grand daughters. and have told me that that is the right James that i have.
they also told me that he died in Cottesloe and that is what it says on the death notice.
so this is definately the right James Thomas.
and no i dont think there would be any parents listed as it was his daughter that made the funeral arrangements and i dont think she knew them. his mother died before he came to western australia and i have no idea if he had kept in contact with his father.
In WA up until 1915 he was known as James George Thomas.
but on he was unknown when his parents registered his birth. they only registered his last name. so it doesnt suprise me that he changed his name.
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I don't know if this has been posted earlier, but here is his death notice http://www.rootschat.com/links/0b0g/
Even in death he had two bob each way on the Frederick/George!!
Debra :D
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Perhaps the information you have relates to the Mary Ann UNDERWOOD daughter of Thomas and Catherine who was born in NSW in 1845. Thomas was the son of James. This Mary Ann died in 1866 unmarried, her brother Thomas died the following year, and her sister Sarah died in 1872 from scarlet fever.
Debra :D
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Dundee
Can you please repeat the link to the death notice as it seems to be incomplete.
Tracey,
If the death entry in the WA BDM index has no parents names for James Frederick Thomas d. 1952, that means that the death certificate for this James Frederick Thomas d. 1952 has no names for his parents. You need to consider that the death details you have are not for this man. They might well be for James Thomas, but it is a different person.
All of this search - Underwood, Tasmania, First Fleet arrivals - is based on the information on the death certificate. And this is selective details passed on by phone from a third cousin, who quite possibly does have a James Thomas in their family, but no necessarily your James Thomas. You need to ask the cousins to send you a copy of the death certificate before you go any further. You need to verify this link to your James Thomas and you could do that by checking other details on the certificate such as age, marriage, and children for this deceased person.
If you have a marriage certificate for your James Thomas, can you pass on all the details please - hopefully it lists his parents names, which will confirm the connection to Charles Edward Thomas and Mary Ann Underwood.
Wivenhoe
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wow Dundee thank u so much :) Elsie was James's second daughter :)
the details dont tell the whole story in the newspaper.
he actually left sarah-jane around 35-40 years earlier.. took off with her sister and left her with 7 kids to raise alone.
he came back to western australia around 1948 and the only person who would talk to him was his daughter Elsie, her husband Jack and their daughter June. June was the lady i went to see, shes in her 80's now. (88)
Wivenhoe! this definately is the right James Thomas. i already know this is the right James thomas.
and his mothers name was Mary Ann Underwood and his fathers name was Charles Edward Thomas.
i am trying to find out where mary ann underwood came from. June had some info stating that we came from James underwood. so i am trying to link up mary.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Dundee wow thank u so much for the death notice. anything on my family is lovely to see.
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Hi Wivenhoe,
The link is working for me, but here is a transcription of the notice:
The West Australian (Perth, WA : 1879-1954) Friday 19 December 1952 (page 34)
THOMAS, James Frederick (George) Passed away on Dec. 16, husband of the late Sarah Jane (died Sep. 29, 1951); aged 87 years. Peacefully sleeping. Inserted by Els, Jack and June. A Private Service was held in the Crematorium Chapel, Karrakatta, on Dec. 16. D. J. Chipper and son.
James' sister Louisa THOMAS (born 1869 Tas) died unmarried in Perth, WA in 1902, and is buried at the Karrakatta cemetery.
http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx
http://www.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/search.php
We really need to be looking at what happened to Mary Ann. If she died somewhere other than Tasmania then her death cert could have some helpful information. Her last kinown child was born in 1875. I don't think that any of the deaths in Tas that I posted earlier would be her:
This is definitely not her - cemetery and newspaper have her as the wife of William, mother of Henrietta
Name: Mary Ann THOMAS
Death Date: 3 Apr 1885
Reg Place: Hobart, Tasmania
Age: 42
Reg Number: 2329
Mary was under 21 when she married in 1860, so these are too old. (The first left a will and details confirm this is not her)
Name: Mary THOMAS
Death Date: 1 Dec 1892
Reg Place: Beaconsfield, Tasmania
Age: 70
Reg Number: 32
Name: Mary THOMAS
Death Date: 12 Aug 1881
Reg Place: Hobart, Tasmania
Age: 60
Reg Number: 3315
There is another in 1896 who is too old, and this one in 1900 with no age given:
Mary Ann THOMAS
1900
Registration Place: Longford, Tasmania
Registration Number: 0375
Tracey if you don't have James' 1891 marriage cert then you really need to get it as it may tell you whether his mother was already deceased or not.
Debra :D
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Hi Debra
wow i had no idea that his sister came to Western Australia. Thank u so much for finding that information out.
no i dont have his marriage certificate.
I will ring up my relatives and see if any of them have a copy of it though.
sorry... just rang and there doesnt seem to be a copy available already.
apparently some information was gathered from the Bernie library
and a person from tasmania with the last name underwood thought that mary ann was related. but couldnt place her
so i think maybe that she came from nsw not tasmania
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Hello Debra
Thank you for the repeat of the web link to the death notice. Information for Louisa Thomas d. 1902 looks good, and it would make sense that she would not be alone in WA at this time, so a sibling there would fit. Can I ask how you have identified her as the sister of James Frederick Thomas please?
Wivenhoe
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Hi Wivenhoe,
I only know that Louisa's death reg on the indexes gives the same parents, place of birth and timeframe that Tracey has for her James, and her birth does appear in the Tas indexes.
Hi Tracey,
Many, many events were unrecorded and Mary Ann's birth or baptism could be one of them. Many convict women brought children with them or gave birth in Tasmania and they went unrecorded. Many "traditional" families also had children that were not recorded. My great grandmother was born in England, and her siblings were born in Tasmania but only one is recorded. I was lucky that their parents moved to Victoria and died there and all of the children are named on their death certs. If not for this I would never have known that they existed. You need to gather as much documentation as you can when you have "difficult" ancestors. If nobody in the family already has copies of certs, ask them to contribute some money in exchange for a monthly newsletter (my aunts say it is better than reading a Mills and Boon!)
I just think that you need to give Mary Ann, Charles and their children a life first, and along the way you might find the clues you are looking for to take you further back.
Debra :D
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Hello Debra
I am thinking that, if there is a death certificate for a Thomas who died in WA with parents Charles Edward Thomas and Mary Ann Underwood, and this man is not James Frederick, as indicated in the WA BDM, then it opens the possibility of third Tas-born member of this family in WA, and another souce of information about this family.
Hello Tracey
You need to sight that death record, and the marriage record for James Frederick Thomas. They might hold clues to the origins of these peole.
Wivenhoe
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Wivenhoe this is definately the right James Frederick Thomas. So there are two members that went to Western Australia from the same family.
I realise that it can be really confusing. but James George Thomas and James Frederick Thomas is the same person. not two individuals. his nickname was JJ thomas as well. this man went by many names.
Bev one of James's Granddaughters has said that some of the family went to Victoria. some of the brothers. it would be interesting to find out which ones they were. could someone do a BMD for Victoria state to see if Charles and Mary had children that died in Victoria . they would of been adults
also if u could search marriages. i would like to know if there are any other descendants apart from James's family.
Debra thanks for the information. I might have an uncle who may help me with the costs. but he wont buy everything so could u please tell me what is the most important certificates that i need please.
also if Charles Edward Thomas and Mary Ann Thomas marriage were married in tasmania and it was recorded. would what sort of information would i get off of it. would that be worth while getting?
thank u i appreciate everyones help :)
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Hi Tracey,
All Tasmanian BDMs can be accessed on microfilm up to 1900 at most libraries so there is never any need to purchase certificates for the 1800's - these are the actual register entries, not an index. I remember you saying that you live in WA, so here is a link to the Battye Library http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/find/guides/family_history/australia/tasmania/births_marriages_deaths I don't know what their set up is, but often the microfilm reader is connected to a computer and you can download the images straight from the microfilm to a memory stick or email them to yourself (very modern!!)
If you can't manage to get to a library, let me know and I will have a look for you. There is not much info recorded on Tas certificates before 1896, but always worth looking at everything anyway. Have a look here at what you can expect to find http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
Other certificates that I would purchase would be:
1) James and Sarah's WA 1891 marriage - it might say whether his mother was deceased at that stage.
2) The 1925 Victorian death cert for Charles THOMAS to see if he is the correct person - (father of James, husband of Mary Ann) This one is a bit of a punt - you will be hoping that ALL of his children are named, and enough details to confirm that he is your man. You really need the names of those poor nameless children!!
Chas THOMAS
Death Place: Box Hill, Victoria
Age: 98
Reg Year: 1925
Reg Number: 8301
Can be downloaded instantly here http://www.rootschat.com/links/0aq2/ (buy an uncertified image online)
Other certificates would be Louisa's death in WA in 1902 as I would want to know who the informant was, and it may also tell you if either parent was deceased. Her address and occupation, if any, are also of interest, and it should tell you how long she had been living in each state (if the informant knew)
....and here is another in Victoria for you:
Death
Edeley Louis James THOMAS
Death Place: Dandenong, Victoria
Age: 80
Father's name: Chas Edw THOMAS
Mother's name: Mary Ann UNDERWOOD
Registration Year: 1949
Number: 18354
Another brother? So where did he get a name like that from? Will have a look around at some things for you.
Debra :D
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SPRINGVALE BOTANICAL CEMETERY
THOMAS, EDELEY LOUIS JAMES
CREMATED 2/05/1949
TRISTANIA, WALL NICHE SINGLE
WALL 2B
NICHE 76
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There were SIX children (four males & 2 females) registered in the TAS births for Charles THOMAS & Mary Ann UNDERWOOD all at Emu Bay. Only two of them appear with names & none appear deceased as children.
CHARLES EDW HY ALB A - 21/05/1861
MALE Name Not Recorded - 31/05/1864 = possibly James Frederick/George THOMAS = death found in WA
MALE Name Not Recorded - 15/08/1866 = possibly Edeley Louis James THOMAS = death found in VIC
LOUISA - 1/02/1869 = death found in WA
FEMALE Name Not Recorded - 27/09/1871
MALE Name Not Recorded - 31/01/1875 = possibly Edeley Louis James THOMAS = death found in VIC
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oh my gosh
this is soo amazing thank you so very much for helping me with this.
Debra i have been to battye library many times. unfortunately i wont be able to go for the next few weeks as its the school holidays and i am flat tack with the kids. I love going there because i dont have the kids with me and i can concentrate. the historians know me by name lol. they were there when i found my first convict.
my relatives are sending me all the information this time.. she said she wont hold anything back so hopefully i might get some of the records we are looking for.
this is soo amazing. i am so grateful for everyones help. Thank u so much Debra and Merlin i am soo very grateful to u
I have never heard the name Edeley Louis James Thomas. no idea where the name would of even come from.
i will keep searching as much as i can online.. wow i wish i was living in NSW, TAS and Vic it would be so much easier to look up information over there lol
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I went to the library finally today and i could not see anything to do with Mary Ann Underwood. there is no passenger arrivals for her, nor is there a birth certificate or death certificate, that i could find.
I did find the marriage for mary and Charles Edward thomas 1860 but we already have this information.
Either there are two charles Edward Thomas's in Emu Bay or there is the one and he had to relationships
1st marriage to Mary Ann Underwood having 6 kids
2nd Marriage/ relationship to Emma Lucas and having 6 kids with her (that i could find)
i could not find a marriage record for Emma lucas and Charles Edward Thomas.
There was a charles Edward Thomas in Bernie in 1919 ( and my relatives told me that they got some of their information from that local library.
but i believe he went to Victoria after.
i am not sure if they are the same charles or two different ones.
Debra,
you said that there was an ancestry tree that was talking about charles and emma lucas. I tried to get in touch with them today but i couldnt find the tree.
is there anyway that u or someone could get in touch with these people and give them my email address and let them know i am interested.
i was so upset that i couldnt find them.. i even got the librarian involved and she couldnt find them either.
so any help locating and linking me with this family would be soo appreciated :)
There was one piece of information that i found too and that was that Charles may have been a carpenter.. not sure if this is the same charles either.
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Debra could u also please tell me where you found out the information that Emma Lucas had a relationship with someone else.
does that information tell u if it was after 1925 or if she stayed in tasmania.
many thanks :)
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Debra could u also please tell me where you found out the information that Emma Lucas had a relationship with someone else. does that information tell u if it was after 1925 or if she stayed in tasmania.
Emma LUCAS obviously was in a relationship with Patrick SUMMERS as there are three births registered to them between 1892 to 1894.
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These are the trees that Debra probably found & requested that you contact the owners for further information regards Charles Edward THOMAS, Mary UNDERWWOD & Emma LUCAS:
http://trees.ancestry.com.au/tree/17652089/person/538963478?ssrc=
http://trees.ancestry.com.au/tree/14988745/person/194208549?ssrc=
http://trees.ancestry.com.au/tree/672792/person/257368517?ssrc=
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thanks for that Merlin that would explain why Charles was living by himself in 1914.
if he dies in Victoria in 1925, would a 87 year old travel from Tas to Vic???
maybe i have the wrong Charles Edward Thomas in Tas.
it said in the census that he was a carpenter. it still says that he is living in Emu Bay at that time.
i have tried looking for those trees and i dont have access to ancestry so i will have to wait until i go to the library to contact them.
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Hi Tracey,
I am trying to see if I can sort out the entries for Charles THOMAS on the Tasmania Electoral Roll.
The eldest son of Charles and Mary Ann born 1861 was also Charles Edward. He appears to have moved to Victoria and this is possibly his death:
Death
Victoria
1933
Chas THOMAS
Age: 72
Father: Chas THOMAS
Mother: Emma LUCAS
#993
The age is correct and the informant has given his mother's name as Emma LUCAS who is the woman that Charles Snr might have had a relationship with after Mary Ann. This appears to stengthen that theory. He married Mary Ann McPHERSON in Tasmania in 1884. Only his death cert would confirm his identity.
I also did a flyby the library yesterday.
Charles and Mary Ann's 1860 marriage entry gives Charles' occupation as Carpenter.
Debra :D
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thanks for that Debra
that would confirm that Charles Edward Thomas was the same one back in Emu Bay in 1914. as it says there that hes a carpenter.
although hes pretty elderly there.
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oh my gosh i think i just found a newspaper article death notice for Louisa Thomas
do u think this is the right one. as it mentions Charles Thomas from Bernie Tasmania as her father.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/24825997?searchTerm=louisa%20Thomas%201902&searchLimits=l-category=Family+Notices|category%3AFamily+Notices|||l-title=The+West+Australian+%28Perth%2C...|titleid%3A30|||sortby=dateAsc
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also it mentions a sister that has put the notice in the paper. would she have been from WA at the time?
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Good job!! I did see that notice when I was looking, but when I saw the surname as BURNIE I didn't actually read it through. It just goes to show that they were mucking up the classifieds even back then.
Now here is the weird thing - in the next couple of years the same memorial is listed under the surname of WALLACE. Perhaps Louisa was in a relationship with a man named WALLACE? Her death and burial were definitely registered as THOMAS. Something else to investigate ::)
Did you also notice that it says she was the SECOND daughter of Charles? So who was the first? The unnamed female child was registered in 1871 AFTER Louisa who was born in 1869, so there must have been another unregistered daughter sometime before that.
I do wonder if this sister "E. DOWNING" is the eldest daughter herself, just because I did spot this marriage:
Marriage
Emu Bay
Tasmania
10 Oct 1879
Ellen Lavinia THOMAS
James Daniel John DOWNING
For this to be the marriage of one of Charles and Mary Ann's daughters she would have been born around 1864 at the latest, but probably earlier. Something else to be investigated further. I think she would have been living in WA when the notices were placed.
Debra :D
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lol i have to confess that i didnt even know that there was a muck up. i just saw Louisa and Thomas and Bernie Tasmania. I didnt see that they had put it as her last name until after i had posted it on here.
Could it have been that they put one of the females down as a male??? it may explain why we cant find as many male children
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I have been in contact with someone who knows about Charles Edward Thomas (thanks Debra for setting that up for me) and now i am waiting on a reply.
I am still mystified about Mary Ann Underwood. where she came from, All i know is she was married in Tasmania.
their great granddaughter told me that Mary Ann came from America. Its all so confusing. would love to know the truth.
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Hi Tracey,
Have you asked the Tas Archives to check their immigration card index for Mary Ann or any others named UNDERWOOD? The online indexes only cover the surnames beginning with the letters A-I so far. http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=91
Debra :)
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Hi Tracey,
Just a suggestion, but it is better if you start a new topic for each enquiry rather than changing your original query.
I think you mean Henry THOMAS, not Henry UNDERWOOD ??? The index to convict permissions to marry is online on the Tas Archives site and digital images of the records are now available (click on the blue link to the far right of each entry) I don't see one for Henry though.
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=5
Debra :)
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Hi Debra
i used to have seperate links but then someone would merge them, so i thought it best to stick to the one link. i am sorry if it confuses everyone
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WALLACE.-In fond and loving remembrance of my dear sister. Louisa, second beloved daugh ter of Charles Thomas Burnie. Tasmania, who departed this life June 13, 1902, in Private Hospital. Stirling-strcet, Perth, after a short painful illness. Her end was peace. Two long years, oh, sister dear, And still we miss you. Lonely are our hearts to-day, For the one we loved so dearly Has for ever passed away. -Inserted by her loving sister, E. Downing. Tasmanian, New Zealand, Victorian papers please copy.
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i wonder where she got the money from to be in a private hospital whilst she was sick.
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I've been looking at your conversation about Charles Edward Thomas and his "marriage" to Emma Lucas (actually Emma Jane Lucas). I can help you out with your research there. Emma Lucas was the 2nd "wife" of Chas Edward, his first as you seem to have found was Mary Ann Underwood and the married in Launceston on 14 April 1861. seven children in that marriage, the eldest being Charles Edward Henry Thomas who died in Box Hill Victoria in 1933 (this caused me some confusion for a while ???). Then he entered into a "marriage" with Emma Lucas and they had six children, one of whom was my mother's father. Chas Edward Snr also died in Box Hill Vic. in 1925.
Emma had previously been married to Alfred Harris and had one daughter to him
Rachel Grace, then she moved on to Chas. Edward, then on to Patrick Summers and had three children with him and finally ended up with Parkinson Johnson until her death in West Devonport in 1904. Poor old Alfred Harris had to wait until 1904 before he could legally remarry as that was when he became a widower !!!
Hope this sort things out for you.
Regards Ted
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wow we share the same great great grandfather
Ted thank u so much for adding ur part. i appreciate that. i was wondering if u know what happened to his first wife? mary ann underwood.
as i have said previously i am from the first marriage James Thomas was my great grandfather.
I also wonder if u have any photos of Charles and our very large family :) anything would be awesome.
would it be ok if u could tell me who your grandfather is?
hoping to hear from you soon
Tracey :)
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Yes, my Grandfather was Carl Edwin Lucas Thomas born May 16 1886 as was his twin sister Eva Victoria Thomas. Both lived reasonably long lives unlike their
following twin siblings Amy and Oliver who only lived for about 10 months after their birth two years after Carl and Eva. They were from Emma Lucas as you will note from Carl's full name.
I have some photos of Carl and his wife Elsie Ruth (Brown) and also of Eva.
Not sure just who James Thomas was, though, he doesn't appear in my tree for Charles Thomas and Mary Underwood. Did he have another first name but preferred to be called James ?? Perhaps Edley Louis James Thomas ???
Cheers Ted
PS: Here is a photo we believe to be Charles Edward Thomas snr. Have photos of Carl Thomas and his wife Elsie Ruth Brown and others.
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i can definately confirm that that is him :)
who is Elsie Ruth Brown i didnt know he married another person. it is amazing though as it says apparently on his death certificate that he married 3 women i know mary ann and Emma Lucas but didnt know about Elise Brown.
James doesnt appear because Charles and Mary Ann did not register him with his first name. If you look there is a male child born in 1864 with the last name Thomas.
James was known by a few names
in wa he was known for at least 15 years as James George Thomas. but later on in life he was known as James Frederick Thomas (which also appears on his birth certificate. :)
I will pm you a message as well :)
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sorry i misread the line i thought that Elsie was charles other wife but shes Carls wife so she would be ur grandmother.
well that is awesome. I am so glad that u have messaged :)
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~Merlin~
I was wondering what sort of information you have on James Underwood. I am related to him through his daughter Charlotte who married the Surgeon Robert Wainwright Owen. I have been trying to find photos of James Underwood and anything to do with him as well as any other information!
Thanks Alot :)
Mason La Roche
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I also am looking for Charles Edward Thomas that married Mary Ann Underwood 1860
Their witnesses was John Joseph and Mary Ann McEnnulty of Longford.
Mary Ann was an Oldfield before she married but her mother was Martha Underwood.
Was this Mary Ann and Martha sisters ????
This is my Mary Ann Underwood
UNDERWOOD, MARY ANN
Gender: Female
Birth
Marriage/Relationship: 1860 - LAUNCESTON,Tasmania ( THOMAS, CHARLES E )
Children: 330170 THOMAS CHARLES EDWARD 1861
330172 THOMAS M 1864
330167 THOMAS M 1866
330169 THOMAS LOUISA 1869
330168 THOMAS F 1871
330171 THOMAS M 1875
Family
THOMAS, CHARLES EDWARD
Gender: Male
Birth 1861 - EMU BAY,Tasmania
Marriage/Relationship: 1884 - HOBART,Tasmania ( MCPHERSON, MARY ANN )
Death:
FAMILY INFORMATION
Parents: 320866 THOMAS CHARLES E
313464 UNDERWOOD MARY ANN
Siblings: 330172 THOMAS M 1864
330167 THOMAS M 1866
330169 THOMAS LOUISA 1869
330168 THOMAS F 1871
330171 THOMAS M 1875
Children: 330164 THOMAS CHARLES HENRY 1884
330163 THOMAS GEORGE 1886
330162 THOMAS HYGENIA 1890
330161 THOMAS ROY 1892
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According to the 1841 UK census, Martha OLDFIELD formerly UNDERWOOD was aged 33 so born around 1808.
Mary Ann UNDERWOOD was a minor when she married in 1860 in Tasmania, so born after 1839. While it is not impossible, it is unlikely that they were sisters.
I believe that IF there was a family relationship, then Martha may have been Mary Ann's aunt, which in turn made her daughters Mary Ann's cousins.
Debra :)
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Can anyone confirm that this would be correct for the Oldfield family
Husband
William Oldfield 1804-1882
Wife
Martha Underwood 1804-1888
Daughter
HARRIET Oldfield 1823-1896 ( convict )
have found her marrying three times
Henry Jones 31 December 1849
William Garner on 20 Sept 1854 in Emu Bay, Tasmania
John Smith in 1867 in Emu Bay, Tasmania
Daughter
Mary Ann Oldfield 1829 - 1889
John Joseph 1827 - 1872
Daughter
Maria Oldfield 1844 - 1925
John Jacob Beuttermuller ( Miller ) - changed his surname when he married Maria
I have also found a John " JAMES " McEnnulty 1827-1872
Not John " JOSEPH " McEnnulty 1827-1872 as is on their marriage certificate.
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Husband
William Oldfield 1804-1882
Wife
Martha Underwood 1804-1888
https://familysearch.org/search has William and Martha's marriage and baptisms for Harriet and Mary Ann. There is also an index to the 1841 Nottinghamshire census, William is aged 36, Martha 33, Harriet 13, Mary 10. Maria is not yet born. I have no idea when or where William and Martha died.
HARRIET Oldfield 1823-1896 ( convict )
have found her marrying three times
Henry Jones 31 December 1849
William Garner on 20 Sept 1854 in Emu Bay, Tasmania
John Smith in 1867 in Emu Bay, Tasmania
Harriet's convict records are digitised online:
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?detail=1&type=C&id=53747
Harriet did apply to marry Henry JONES, but they did not marry.
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=5
Harriet only married once to William GARNER in 1854 (recorded in the 1858 marriage register)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1971-35346-7544-32?cc=2125029&wc=M93C-9Z6:94791410
She did later have children with John SMITH but died as Harriet GARNER in 1896. There is plenty on TROVE http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?q=harriet+garner
Take note of the statement on FamilyLinks on the Tas Archives website:
"Except where indicated by '(AO)', the family links in the database have not been made by the TAHO and we are not therefore able to guarantee their accuracy. Links made by the National Heritage Foundation have been built up from a diverse range of sources which have not themselves been checked. The database is no longer being updated and TAHO cannot accept any further corrections."
Some of the dates of marriage that they give are not from the actual records, but are assumed from the date of the first child born and so many are incorrect.
Daughter
Mary Ann Oldfield 1829 - 1889
John Joseph 1827 - 1872
Their marriage with ages:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1971-35346-5142-74?cc=2125029&wc=M93C-9ZX:n616984673
Mary Ann's second marriage in 1877:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-35347-5525-64?cc=2125029&wc=M93C-98Z:n2133929582
Apparently they separated and she died as McENNULTY, but I cannot confirm this:
Mary Ann McENNULTY
Died: 4 Mar 1889
Age: 59
Registration Place: Longford, Tasmania
# 918
I have also found a John " JAMES " McEnnulty 1827-1872
Not John " JOSEPH " McEnnulty 1827-1872 as is on their marriage certificate.
I have not seen anything which records a middle name, he is always just 'John McENNULTY'. They did have a son named John Joseph. However this seems to be his death reg., Mary Ann refers to him as 'my late husband' in a newspaper advert in November 1872.
John Joseph McENNULTY
Died: 3 Sep 1872
Age: 45
Registration Place: Longford, Tasmania
#275
Daughter
Maria Oldfield 1844 - 1925
John Jacob Beuttermuller ( Miller ) - changed his surname when he married Maria
Their marriage:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-35346-8977-97?cc=2125029&wc=M93C-9ZV:n1854196113
MILLER-On the 16th August, at the residence of her son (Mr. A. Miller), Lilydale, Maria, widow of the late Jacob Miller, aged 81 years.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/66972322
Debra :)