RootsChat.Com
Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: fordofcrows on Friday 01 October 10 14:40 BST (UK)
-
Hello folks,
I know this is an extremely long shot but I wonder if anyone can help me identify the people in this photograph. It is a family photo of the Borrill family from Belchford, Horncastle. In later years the Borrills settled in Louth, Lincolnshire.
A good starting point would be to be able to date the photograph and I wonder if anyone could tell me which regiment or war the soldier would have served in.
I think the soldier may be John Thomas Borrill (b. 1876) who fought in the Boer War but I can find very little details about him.
The old couple are the parents of some of the older men. These old people I think, are John Borrill b. 1823 Belchford, Horncastle and Mary Goddard b. 1822 Belchford, Horncastle.
Somewhere in the photo I think is William Borrill b. 1848 Belchford, Horncastle.
Like I say, I know this is all a longshot but I am hoping that some Borrill researchers may be able to help. I tried Ancestry to no avail.
Best wishes to you all and thank you for any help or pointers, at all.
David
-
These would seem to put a later limit on the date of the photo
Deaths Dec 1893
BORRILL John (69) Horncastle 7a 390
Deaths Mar 1894
BORRILL Mary (70) Horncastle 7a 381
Is it WW1 and that is William (late 60s) and Hannah (early 50s)? She still has dark hair.
-
I agree with Geoff re the WW1 dating - those rounded shirt collars that the older sons are wearing are typical of that period. And the fact the the solider is in the centre of the family group points to it being an enlistment photo - the other sons are either too young to join up or (in the case of the oldest) married with children and not yet subject to conscription.
Ermy
-
There is something obscuring the soldiers hat badge but from the general outline that is available with magnification I would guess possibly Lincolnshire Yeomanry. certainly the bandolier is an indication of a mounted soldier, Yeomanry, Cavalry Gunner, Driver etc.
FYI there is a JW Borrill, Lincolnshire Regiment on the CWGC Site who was killed 5.7.1916 the husband of Mrs C BORRILL, 13 Prospect Place, Market Rasen Lincs, maybe you have looked at the CWGC site.
I agree with Ermintrude that it is possibly an enlistment pic.
Good Luck in your search
James
-
Perhaps the Moderator may consider sending this to the ARMED FORCES BOARD for the experts there to look at the pic of the soldier?
James
-
I can't believe how incredibly helpful you have all been. Thank you.
I will take each answer in turn starting with GeoffE. Having thought about it and considered your very valid points, I agree with your theory that it is most likely William & Hannah. Hannah died in 1959 so rewind to roughly WW1 period of 1914 and Hannah b. 1865, would be, like you say GeoffE, in about her late forties/early fifties.
Ermy - thank you for your reply. Those points you mention provide more evidence to support the theory that it's taken around 1914. Was it typical for a soldier to have an enlistment photo done with his family?
James - you have given me much food for thought and I will be Googling like a madman when I've finished these replies. I will check out the service records (if they survived) of JW Borrill. There's a Walter Borrill b. 1889 (which would make him 25yrs old in 1914) and a Joseph Borrill b. 1906 (he would be too young to fight in the war). I think the small boy on the right could be Joseph by that reckoning.
Thank you all for your help and suggestions. It's not often one gets chance to possess such an amazing photograph as this, and it would be such a shame not to know who all of the people are.
Best wishes,
David
-
PS: I will update you all on my findings once I've worked it all out and it will be a handy reference for any other Borrill researchers.
Best wishes,
David
-
Having a photo taken was a real occasion for ordinary families, it was expensive so restricted to special occasions or times when a momento might be needed, so enlistment photos were common - I have two in my family album from WW1. My maternal great-grandparents had their photo taken with their two young children to give to family members when they moved down from Durham to Kent in 1882 - they never went back up North and, apart from a photo of my great-grandmother taken in old age in the mid-1930s, that is the only known photo of them.
If Walter is one of your Borrills, this could be his wife and the baby boy in the photo:
Marriages Sep 1910
Borrill Walter Louth 7a 1351
Kirk Frances M Louth 7a 1351
Births Sep 1912
Borrill Thomas W (mmn)Kirk Louth 7a 1038
I would strongly recommend you searching the 1911 census, that may well find Walter and his wife together with other siblings and help to narrow down who the soldier is ;)
Ermy
-
Thanks for getting back to me, Ermy. I am still not much closer to identifying the people in the photo but some new information has come to light - although how reliable it is, I cannot say. I am told that my great grandmother, Florence Mary Borrill b. 1892, is in this photograph.
If we are to take it that this picture was taken around 1914 then Florence would be about 22 years old. Now, I know for definite that the lady on the right of the photograph is not my grandmother - I have seen pictures of Florence when she was young and she looked nothing like this lady.
The elderly lady, is I am quite sure, her mother, Hannah Pogmore. The elderly man next to her will be William Borrill, Florence's father. This only leaves the little girl on the left who could be Florence and she did look like her in the photo's I have seen of her in her later years (only less scary looking!).
So, if that is Florence then she looks about 9 or 10 years old - which would date the photo as being taken in about 1902. This would be at around the time of the end of the 2nd Boer War. Now, notice how the soldier looks more tanned than the rest of the people? Could it be possible that he has just returned from Africa?
John Thomas Borrill b. 1876 was Florence's half brother - from William Borrill's previous marriage to Mary Fisher (she died), and John was 16 year's older than Florence, which would make him in his mid twenties in this photograph.
I Googled "John Thomas Borrill" and the first search result came up informing me that there was a man with that name who served in the 7th Battalion Australian Commonwealth Horse Regiment(!) during the Boer Conflict in Africa I would have dismissed this as just a coincidence - same name but different person, but I remembered what James said `certainly the bandolier is an indication of a mounted soldier'.
If this is the right JTB then according to the website (am I allowed to post links? Maybe not) he is `245 Trumpeter John Thomas BORRILL'.
This is where I get really stuck because my knowledge of wars and uniforms is quite scant and even with the use of the internet, I struggle to tell one uniform from another. And at the risk of making myself look foolish by showing my ignorance - is it possible that an Englishman could find himself fighting in an Autralian regiment?
Well, I will leave it here for now because no one likes reading long posts, but thanks for helping Ermy and everyone else.
David
-
For any military experts, I have enlarged the picture of the soldier in hope that someone can make out the cap badge in order to identify it.
many thanks,
David
-
Wow! I am so elated that I have to share this with you good people - without who's help I would not have found this!
John Thomas Borrill from Louth in Lincolnshire, was in fact serving under the 7th Battalion Australian Commonwealth Horse for service in South Africa. I found his service records on the Australian National Archives. (Accessing the records are free - why do we have to pay for them in this country?)
He enlisted May 1st 1902 so it is very likely that the soldier in my photo is him - especially as he's the oldest of the male Borrill children. He is 25 years old and lists his next of kin as his father, William Borrill. Shame there's only one page of his records - the Attestation sheet.
How on Earth did a young lad from Lincolnshire end up fighting in an Australian regiment?
Well, I am very proud of my great-grand-uncle. There you go John soldier - you were nearly forgotten but now you have your face on the internet for all to see!
If anyone has anything else to add - theories on how he ended up in Australia or a positive id of his cap badge etc., then please do so.
Thank you all for your help.
David ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
David,
That's great info, I assume you have googled Australian Commonwealth Horse,? wikipedia has an article on the raising of the unit in 1902, What puzzles me is that Australian troops then usually wore the slouch hat and the cap badge your man wears does not look like the Australian Horse primitive rising sun badge. and his shoulder titles don't look "Australian"
As to an Englishman being in an Australian Unit it was quite common in Commonwealth countries were young men had emigrated and then joined the military of their adopted country to help out the "mother country" in times of crisis, Canada being a prime example with it's "Scottish Regiments".
I still feel this is WW1 era, maybe he returned "home" prior to ww1 and reenlisted in a local regiment
Regards
James
-
Thanks for the reply, James.
Yes, I found the ALH website through typing in his name into Google - using inverted commas so that it stuck to the exact search term. The ALH website has all details on this regiment but it is quite a trawl with it having so much indepth information. I will check out the Wikipedia info too, thanks.
I agree that his uniform looks nothing like the ALH. I can find no service records of his service in the UK though. I think you are right about it looking like the Lincolnshire Yeomanry. He looks tanned so could have returned from Australia/Africa. It's a shame the rest of his service records don't exist and he's missing from all UK census from 1891 onwards.
So, I need to determine whether it's 1902 - or if it's 1914, so that I can get an idea of the ages of the other people in the photo. If it's 1902 then that makes the older woman, 37 and the older man, 54. If it's 1914 then it would mean that my grandmother isn't in the picture because she would be 22 by that time. The older couple would be in their fifities and sixties - which I must admit they do look a bit older than my previous calculation.
If it is 1914 then the soldier could be Roland Borrill. Roland would be 17 in 1914. I have his service records and will re-examine them later. Do you think this soldier looks older than 17 though?
What a puzzle! Heh! Heh!
David
-
Did Roland have a slightly older brother called Harry?? If so, I think it's possible that the soldier could be Harry. You mentioned a Walter Borrill earlier - is he also Roland and Harry's brother? Have you checked out the free search on the 1911 census website for Walter & Roland and the various other Borrills - if not, it's worth following up http://www.1911census.co.uk/
Ermy
-
David,
Another thought, if he was in the South African Campaign against the Boers in 1902 he would have been awarded a Queens South African Medal or a Kings South African medal, either would have been with clasps for various actions, he may have been in, he doesn't seem to be wearing a medal ribbon of any kind, perhaps this isn't the soldier who was in South Africa?
This is beginning to grow arms and legs.
It may be the right moment to put this topic on the Armed Forces ww1 Board
James
-
Thanks for the reply Ermy. I was so engrossed last night in the military history of John Thomas Borrill that I haven't had chance to check out the 1911 census but I am hearing what you are saying and will do just that, later tonight.
Until you mentioned the 1911 census, I wasn't aware that it was available yet - not without paying for it, anyway. I have already spent my `allowance' for this month on my Ancestry subscription - my partner will have a duck-fit if I spend any more on this! ;D
Anyway, yes, Roland did have an older brother, Harry Borrill. Here is the list of the Borrill boys..
John Thomas - 1877
Walter - 1889
Harry - 1895
Roland - 1897
Herbert Edward - 1901
George - 1903
Joseph Brymar Borrill - 1906
I wonder where the `Brymer' bit comes from in the last boy's name?
The only Borrill I have found service records for, apart from JT, is Roland. I will study his records later tonight.
Thanks again,
David
-
James, you make an excellently valid point about the absence of medals! I'd best stop calling him `John' until I am more certain!
How do I put this on the armed forces ww1 board?
David
-
You can do a free name search on the 1911 website and with a bit of playing around can also find out who else is in the same household as a named person in a named place. Seeing you've named everyone (except sister Lily) I don't think there's any harm in saying I could see they were all in the same household with Walter and his new wife in Louth, Lincolnshire. Didn't see the parents, but they may have been away from home or had their names mis-transcribed. Word of mouth can be a bit inaccurate when trying to identify who is in a particular photo, the family make up you give above (plus Lily but minus John Thomas) is a very good fit for the photo if it is taken around 1914/15, I would say. If this isn't your direct line it's likely that copies were given out to the extended family of uncles/grandparents etc and that it has come down to you that way.
Ermy
-
David, 'fraid I cant help with the Armed Forces Board transfer of this topic, but tugging of forelock to the Moderator may help.
James
-
Ermy, thank you for that tip and thank you for the amount of effort you must have put into establishing the occupants of the household - my head hurts after doing that! It's odd that William & Hannah are missing from the 1911 census; I even tried without putting anything into the location field but they seem to have left the country! I haven't been able to find a death date for William but Hannah died in 1949.
So, in summary, these are the occupants of the same household in 1911:-
Walter (Head) - 21
Frances Mary - (wife) - 25
Harry (brother) - 16
Roland (brother) - 14
Herbert (brother) - 10
George (brother) - 8
Lily (sister) - 6
Joseph Brymar (brother) - 4
As you can see, I found Lily but Florence is missing as are the older sisters (Ethel b. 1884 and Ada b. 1885) Florence would be about 17 in 1911 and by that time,I think she was working in service.
I think really the best approach is to concentrate on who the soldier is, and then work out from there, who the rest are by their apparent ages in relation to his.
David
-
James - Who's the moderator? I think you have dropped enough hints (thank you) for the moderator to have noticed and they haven't responded. He or she have their reasons I am sure. Maybe it's because this is a mixed bag - identification of family members and identification of a soldier. Perhaps the best bet will be for me to start a new thread with the soldier, under the appropriate section.
Thank you all for your help. I will leave this open until I can find some concrete answers, in which case, I will provide updates for the benefit of others and of course in gratitude for your efforts, and then mark it closed.
Best wishes to you all,
David
-
James - Who's the moderator? I think you have dropped enough hints (thank you) for the moderator to have noticed and they haven't responded. He or she have their reasons I am sure.
HI David,
The main reason is that the moderator doesn't read every single thread! ;D If you need something moved, or wish to get the attention of a moderator for whatever reason, all you need to do is click on the "Report to Moderator" link at the bottom of one of the messages (not your own - it won't let you!) on a thread.
I see that you've started a new thread on the Armed Forces board which was a good idea, as they are best placed to help you ID your soldier. Meantime, I'm going to move this thread over to the Photo Restoration and Dating board, as I feel you will get more help there with dating your photo. I personally feel that the collars on the younger boys indicate a date earlier than WW1, but freely admit I'm not an expert on 20th century fashion, or men's fashion, or boy's fashion, or wars... ;D ;D ;D
Cheers
Prue
-
Hello Prue,
Thank you for the response. I thought the `report to moderator' link was to report someone if they were being offensive! ;D Can't imagine anyone on Rootschat beng offensive - such nice people! Well, now I know what the link is for, thank you.
Best wishes,
David
-
Hi David...I'm watching this thread with interest...I have Borrills from Lincolnshire too...would love to hear from you if you find any links to the Barton Upon Humber or Brigg Borrills...one line went to Durham then came to Hull.
Lovely photo to have 8)
Carol
-
Just searching the 1911 census index for
William born Belchford c1848
finds
William BOVILL 63
with
Hannah 45
They appear to be in Knaresborough (Yorks) district!
-
Pleased to meet you Carol. Yes, the Borrills from Hull are related in some way and they have very similar names which often cause me confusion when searching for my line! The Hull Borrills suffered some losses in WW1 I think.
As you will see from this thread, the photo is causing me a few headaches but I do believe I will get there in the end, especially with the help of all of these very knowledgable folk on here.
What would be brilliant though, is if another Borrill descendant had their own copy of this photo passed down to them - but their's had the names written on it! ;D
Geoff-E - nice work! You have solved three puzzles for me! One of the older Borrill daughters, Emma Jane Borrill b. 1875 married a Knaresborough man - James Henry Cooper in 1898. I was strugglng to find a link between her and the family in Louth but now that you have found her parents, William & Hannah, in Knaresborough, this is the missing link, as it were. Also, you have provided proof that William was still alive in 1911. Lastly, I always wondered how my g. grandmother, Florence Borrill (daughter of Will & Hannah) in Louth, met my g. grandfather, who was from Knaresborough. I think it's likely that she met him when visiting her sister in Knaresborough! You did well to find him with such a bad transcription error. `Bovill' indeed!
So well done and thank you.
Ady, on the WW1 section identified the soldier's uniform as 1st South Midland Brigade Royal Field Artillary. I've studied Roland Borrill's service records and he was certainly enlisted in that regiment. Before I rename my soldier though, I need to fathom out if his brothers were in the same regiment. I still have my heart set on this being John Thomas Borrill though because I am sure that the young girl is my g. grandmother, Florence and she was 16 yrs younger than Thomas but about five years older than Roland. So currently, I am studying the service records of Borrills who served in WW1. If only I could find service records for John Thomas apart from that single Attestation sheet. It woud surely list his army career and possibly tell me if he enlisted in the S. Midland RFA when he returned form Africa/Australia.
If a soldier had earned medals for his service in a foreign army, would he be allowed to wear them on the uniform of the regiment he'd joined in this country? Is it feasible that John T Borrill had come back from Africa and this was his WW1 enlistment photo?
-
Nice to meet another Borrill researcher :D...In 1881 census...my Mary Borrill is mistranscribed as "Boviell" worth noting.
My earliest Borrill is James b. 1776 in North Ormsby, Linc.
Carol
-
If you've put this on the AF board you probably already know he's Royal Artillery.His tunic appears to be pre 1915 but I can't see it that clearly.
The men are dressed pretty much standard for 1910-20 however the younger woman is in a style of around 1910-14.The girl also around this time & probably before the dropped waist style of dress became popular in 1915.The little chap is in socks & shorts which by the start of WW1 were the fashion for boys generally,so I would suggest this is 1914-15.
From the pose you can see the relationship,the soldier has a hand on the shoulders of the older couple indicating (grand) parents,the man to his right has his hand on the shoulder of the woman in front indicating wife.
jim
-
You could also put it on the Lincolnshire Forum and if you name the thread "Borrills of Horncastle" if anyone googles for Borrill rellies in Horncastle it will pick up the Rootschat thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,23.0.html
Carol
-
Carol - `Boviell' ;D I've struggled with, Burrel, Barrel, Berrill amongst others. I've only got as far back as 1823 so far, with John Borrill. I like to fill in all gaps before going back further though.
I don't know if it's worth moving this to the lincs forum, Carol. Already it comes up top of the list in a Google search.
Jim - all good info, thank you. I know what you mean about the soldier's hands on the older people's shoulders - this was my first thought; that they were his grandparents. My prime suspect for the identity of the soldier was/is John Thomas Borrill and he did live with his grandparents when his mother (Mary Fisher) died in 1883. John was aged 6 then and went to live with his grandparents, John Borrill b. 1823 and Mary b. 1822. Both grandparents died in 1893 though. Because of this, and because of the pointers that other contributors made to this thread I am inclined to think that if it is John, he has his hands on his parent's shoulders (actually step-mum and father). If that little girl on the left is Florence then she only has one brother who is old enough to be that soldier, and that's John Thomas. But the problem with him is that he enlisted for the 7th Battalion Australian Commonwealth Horse regiment. And for this, I will reiterate my earlier question - If a soldier had earned medals for his service in a foreign army, would he be allowed to wear them on the uniform of the regiment he'd joined in this country? Is it feasible that John T Borrill had come back from Africa and this was his WW1 enlistment photo?
I must admit this is all driving me nuts - should I consider holding a seance to get answers? ;) Ha! Ha! Only joking of course!
-
Hello Borrill watchers, i am tracing my roots through my mother whos father was Joseph Borrill Wilson (Hull) whos mother was Elizabeth Wilson nee Borrill and my mum remembers going to Barton to see the inlaws across the river. Having just returned home this evening I googled the name and found you all talking, spookily the picture of the young serviceman resembles very closely my son Joe. Elizabeth married a sea captain before my great grandad called Rowbottom. He went down with the ship and left Elizabeth with 2 sons walter and Robert, if any one can throw any lights for me please let me know, cheers for now, Joe.
-
Hello Joe. Thanks for joining in with the Borrill puzzle. I don't have any answers for you I'm afraid but I am certain that some of the more knowledgable Rootschatters will be able to find you something. If not, it might be a good idea to start a new thread called `Borrill family from Hull'.
I find it very interesting that your mother remembers going to see the inlaws this side of the river and the soldier's striking resemblence to your son - there simply has to be a link!
Anyway, good luck with your research. I will of course let you know if I find a connection.
Best wishes,
David
-
Hello, when I was a child in Sleaford Lincolnshire, My family were acquainted with a Mr Borril who was very old and lived in The arms houses near the church in Sleaford, he informed me that he had served in the Boar War, this would have been approx 1964_66
Regards Rod Carlyle
-
Hello David (Ford of Crows),
This photograph is of my family too!
My Grandfather, George Borrill, is the young man on the far right of the back row. In front of him is his younger brother, Joseph. Both George and Joseph moved to live in Winteringham, Lincolnshire, where George met and married my Nan, Nellie Bratton. Roland moved to live in Appleby, Lincolnshire and I remember my Nan talking about Auntie Florrie. I also know that T hey used to visit relatives in Knaresborough.
There was a family story that George was one of 22 children but I can't find any evidence of that.
I do know that my Grandad's father was married to Mary but later remarried. On the 1901 census, Hannah is listed as the 14 year old daughter of the next door neighbours. She was obviously significantly younger than him when they married.
I too would love to find out about the rest of the family. In the past, I have had contact with Stephen Borrill, the grandson on Roland. He lives in Australia now, having moved there from Hibaldstow, North Lincolnshire. I will see if I can dig out the information he shared with me and see if I can find a way to contact him again.
What are your links to the Borrill family? It is fascinating to find people who are linked.
Tracey
-
Hi and welcome to Rootschat...unfortunately David hasn't been on Rootschat for almost 3 years...you may get lucky and get a response.
Carol
-
Thanks Carol.
Oh, that's a shame. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
Tracey