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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Charles IX on Tuesday 28 September 10 17:38 BST (UK)
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This might have been asked before but you know when someone says "oh Im 1/16 Scottish and a 1/5 english..." or something like that exactly how do they work that out? do you stop at your great-grand parents and work down from there or go back futher ??? or only count from your grandparents etc.... where exactly is the stopping point. and if someone knows then could they then tell me what I am if I have two gtx3 grandparents from Ireland.
Kind regards
Charles
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I don't think it's that easy.
To my mind, you can be one of several things -
Where were you born? You're from there
Where have you lived for the greatest part of your life? Maybe that's were you're from now.
What does your passport say? Legally, that's your nationality.
Where are your family roots? You may feel you're from there
What is your ethnicity? If you're not from the majority ethnic group in the place where you live, you may feel more affinity with a different place (which you may never actually have visited!)
ditto religion ---
you choose!
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You could look at this from the perspective of where they were born or their stock. In Liverpool you have some people with no English blood at all who can claim to be 100% Irish. Their nearest Irish born ancestor may be from the 1800s but because of the great number of Irish migrants coming to Liverpool all their ancestral lines may lead to Ireland showing no English roots at all.
My Paternal Grandfather was of 100% Irish stock but his nearest Irish born ancestors were his Grandparents. This would make me 25% or a quarter Irish. My Maternal Grandmother was 100% Manx so likewise that would make me 25% or a quarter Manx. So at least half of me is Celt. The rest is more complicated because the English lines of my ancestry are reduced by ancestors who were Welsh, Scottish or German.
C
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My husband had one grandparent out of four who was himself born in England to two Irish-born parents. So I think my husband is one quarter Irish, three quarters English, except that one of his lines leads to Worcester where he has ancestors called Price, Davis, etc, so some part of him must be Welsh. He is also very Northern. Worcester is the furthest south for his English ancestors who came from Cheshire, Lancashire, Derbyshire and Yorkshire. claytonbradley
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My 2xgreat gran was born in Sussex but grew up from babyhood in London. She was a Londoner. Just because she wasn't actually born in London doesn't make her a non Londoner. She was every bit a Londoner and was baptised there.
I have a Scottish 5xgreat grandfather so that makes me 1/128th Scottish. I was born in Norfolk but my parents came from Essex.
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My Paternal Grandfather was of 100% Irish stock but his nearest Irish born ancestors were his Grandparents. This would make me 25% or a quarter Irish. My Maternal Grandmother was 100% Manx so likewise that would make me 25% or a quarter Manx. So at least half of me is Celt.
Not necessarily! If you could go back far enough (which we can't), you may find that your Irish forebears were originally anglo-norman or viking!
and therein lies the danger of trying to label ourselves according to distant history - it can't be proved and may not be as we assume; and of course intermarraiges over the centuries must have rendered "pure" celtic, saxon, viking, etc etc descendancy almost impossible.
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It's not about purity for me it's just a bit of fun imagining how people from different places contributed to the person you are today. Enjoying the influences from the people of those countries.
C
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I often go into Chatterbox (live chatroom on this site) and when people ask me where I am from I never quite know how to respond:
I was born in England, to English-born parents, although I was raised in NE Wales and was only born in England because that was where the nearest maternity unit was at the time;
I have lived in Wales for most of my life, studying Welsh to A-level standard, and my maternal grandmother is Welsh
However, I have no ancestral links to NW England or North Wales - my paternal grandmother's mother was Scottish, and her maiden name was Brennan which is of course Irish! :scratches head Laurel and Hardy fashion: ???
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One 4 x g.grandfather was Scottish, the rest appear to be English but from many parts of the UK. I had thought mainly from Norfolk, Suffolk, Lincolnshire, Lancashire, Yorkshire and Cheshire. Then I found out one of my g.grandfather's was apparently from Bethnal Green (no proof yet). However, on the Norfolk side and Suffolk side, I've now found that going further back their ancestors came from Buckinghamshire, London around St Paul's area, and owned land in Essex, Kent and Middlesex. Before starting on my family tree, I considered myself to be a Lancashire lass, who lived in Cheshire. Now I think I'm a total mongrel ::) ::)
Lizzie
ps. There's also a rumour that one of my 13 x g.grandfather's was a master cook for royalty. Not found any proof of that though and don't know how I would.
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Well, so far I'm 100% English, but since our great country was invaded by so many 'immigrants' in times gone by (Romans, Vikings, Celts, Picts, Normans, Jutes, etc), who knows ? :)
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Doesn't some of it depend on how you feel?
My dad was Scottish, my mother English so techincally, I am half and half. Go back two generations and one of the Scottish lines suddenly has Essex blood in it :o, so that dilutes my Scots ancestry a bit more.
But if pushed, and in spite of having grown up and lived most of my life in England, I would say that I feel more kinship with my Scottish side than the English one.
Interestingly, doing this research has made me more fond of the English ancestors but in a pitched battle between the two, I'd almost certainly support the Scots. ;D
Jen
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Whilst I was reading this thread it came to me that we possibly might not be having this conversation a few decades ago. In those days the father was the official guardian and by law whatever nationality he was so were his children.
With the Commonwealth games so near it comes to mind that the athletes from each of the countries who make up the United Kingdom are chosen from where they were born (or if a recent immigrant whether they have legal British citizenship status, then it's which of the countries they live in). To further complicate the matter, the football association stipulates that a player can go as far back as a grandparent's nationality. This is why sometimes the Irish, Scots and Welsh football teams have some very English sounding players.
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To further complicate the matter, the football association stipulates that a player can go as far back as a grandparent's nationality. This is why sometimes the Irish, Scots and Welsh football teams have some very English sounding players.
Which is why Vinnie Jones was able to play for - and even captain - the Welsh national team as his mother's father was Welsh!
Katie
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Whilst I was reading this thread it came to me that we possibly might not be having this conversation a few decades ago. In those days the father was the official guardian and by law whatever nationality he was so were his children.
Oh goody...I am Scottish then. :D
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I'm English in the sense that I've lived all but one year of my life in England (the exception was Italy) and my parents were brought up in England (though neither was born here). But I have a Scottish surname.
Going by great-grandparents, I'm a quarter Scottish, an eighth Irish and five-eighths English. But the Irish eighth is in reality a right hodgepodge of Scots, English and French Huguenot, with no native Catholic Irish in there at all, and the English portion is a mix of Saxon, Viking and Norman. As others have said, where do you stop?
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So after reading everyones post on this thread Im assuming that there is no perticual stopping point. Its just as far as the person wants to go back... :) so Im going to say Im 1/16 Irish, 6/16 English and 9/16 Welsh.
Thanks for everyones feedback
Charles
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I think basically unless you have a bloodline relative born outside the British Isles then maybe calling oneself 'British' covers all of Scotland/Ireland/Wales/England, not too sure if the Isle of Man, Scilly Isles and the Channel Isles come under British Isles or not. :)
Jean
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I think basically unless you have a bloodline relative born outside the British Isles then maybe calling oneself 'British' covers all of Scotland/Ireland/Wales/England, not too sure if the Isle of Man, Scilly Isles and the Channel Isles come under British Isles or not. :)
Jean
and I'm pretty sure that no-one from Ireland would call themselves British ??? :-\ :)
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So going back to g.grandparents I'm definitely English, even if I'm a hybrid of many different counties.
Lizzie
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I think basically unless you have a bloodline relative born outside the British Isles then maybe calling oneself 'British' covers all of Scotland/Ireland/Wales/England, not too sure if the Isle of Man, Scilly Isles and the Channel Isles come under British Isles or not. :)
Jean
and I'm pretty sure that no-one from Ireland would call themselves British ??? :-\ :)
I thought that until the early part of the 20C (can't remember the date) Ireland was part of Britain, most counties gaining indepence from the UK apart from those in Ulster who wanted to stay. :-\
Jean
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The British Isles is a Geographic term, not a political one. Ireland was part of the United Kingdom until 1922. The full name for the U.K. before this was The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, after this date it became The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Great Britain refers to England Scotland and Wales.
Even though my ancestors were born in (southern) Ireland when we were part of the United Kingdom, they would be considered Irish not British.
Shane
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The Isle Of Man and Channel Islands are not part of the UK. I think they are Crown dependencies. They have their own governments but they have a special relationship with the UK so that in some ways they are treated like parts of the UK. For example the Isle Of Man has links with the North West Of England for such things as Health, Education and regional TV coverage.
The term British is frowned upon by some people in Britain they would rather be considered English, Welsh or Scottish. Likewise some people in Northern Ireland consider themselves to be both British and Irish. My Irish ancestors were all British Subjects because they came over in the 1800s when all of Ireland was part of the UK.
I have no idea of how my Irish ancestors thought of themselves they probably felt more Irish because Liverpool had a religious divide that meant Irish Catholics retained a strong sense of identity. One of my Welsh ancestors couldn't speak English so she must have felt like a foreigner. My Manx ancestors would have seen IOM as a nation in itself.
C
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back to the original question about the origins of our ancestors - in my case mostly Irish, some English, and a small percentage Scottish. If I go back further there are surnames in Ireland of Normal origin involved, so possibly Norman/Welsh ancestors derived from around 1169 also..
According to DNA analysis, some male line connections with southern Europe / Iberian Peninsula .
Shane
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Most of my ancestors were from western Britain and Ireland so their roots may go back to the very ancient migrations from Iberia and North Africa rather than the later migrations.
C
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my parents were born in Sussex as was i which would make me 1/2 Sussex and 1/2 Sussex or 1 whole Sussex however my grandparents were born in Cornwall, Sussex, Ukraine and Leicester so i would then be a 1/4 of each of these
my partner was born in Sussex but his parents in Leicester and Sussex so he would be 1/2 of these going further back he has Irish Leicester Yorkshire and Sussex so 1/4 of these
its so confusing i cant go back further than this
i guess i had 8 gt grandparents and would i be 1/8 of their birth place?
my children gt grandparents are obviously mr and my partners grandparents so would they then be 1/8 cornwall 1/8 ukraine 2/8 leicester 2/8 sussex 1/8 irish and 1/8 yorkshire ?
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I have a tissue type which originates in eastern Turkey. I'd guess that somewhere in the mists of time, an ancestor travelled the silk route.
However, I am not in the least Turkish, and if you could see me, you'd definitely think me a bog-standard-issue anglo-celt mongrel type! The only thing is that despite having blue eyes and reddish hair, I have a yellow skin tone (rather than pink) and don't burn easily in the sun!
Now my dad would, if pushed, admit that his grandmother was Welsh. In fact, I now know that although she was born in Wales, her parents moved back and forth a few miles across the border; only one of her parents was born in Wales; and the whole family left Wales when she was tiny and never went back. So was she really Welsh?
Another 2xgt-grandmother was born in Scotland, but only because the family had moved there for work temporarily. I don't think that she was Scottish, she was just born there.
My Irish - born ancestor may have been descended from Scottish prostestants who moved there decades before he was born - and who knows where they had come from originally?
When all's said and done, I don't consider myself a constituent of the ethnicities/birthplaces of my ancestors. Their stories are interesting (to me!) - the social history of why people moved is interesting on a wider scale - but I come from where I was born, not from where they were born.
I would love to find out about the silk route traveller though! :)
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When all's said and done, I don't consider myself a constituent of the ethnicities/birthplaces of my ancestors. Their stories are interesting (to me!) - the social history of why people moved is interesting on a wider scale - but I come from where I was born, not from where they were born.
Bravo! Well said.
Nick
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Having been brought up in the place, I definitely consider my nationality is Yorkshire ;D but a couple of maternal lines of my father's ancestors didn't stay in the same place more than a generation - both lines due to the Highland clearances. The exceptions were the men in my father's paternal line who I've taken back to 1704 and who only moved a few miles at a time along the River Clyde in Scotland. Similarly with his mother's lines who were rooted on the Midlothian coast from mid 1700's onwards and thus might have Scandinavian or other genes. My maternal grandfather was Norfolk which again could mean vikings. My mother's maternal grandfather was a German saxon and his roots were in the same place from mid 1700's onwards. Excepting for one wife in the 1600's and one husband brought back to Yorkshire from "London" all my maternal grandmothers lines didn't move very far from the Yorkshire Dales. I do so wish there was a paper trail back to the origins of my maternal gt grandmother's line as her surname seems to be one of an ancient English God which took the earthly form of a green woodpecker (!)
My OH had blue eyes, black hair and olive skin and his lines have led me a merry dance on all compass points of the UK. There's a family rumour that one Scottish line included a survivor of the Spanish Armada who managed to evade capture when his ship foundered off the coast, which could explain his skin, but as yet I haven't found the evidence or a surname that hinted of a foreign land.
I'd never really thought about it before but I suppose I'm 1/2 Scottish but I'll leave it up to mathemeticians for the breakdown of the other fractions.
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I was born in Norfolk to Essex parents and consider myself more Essex than Norfolk. My parents moved up here in 1975 and I was born in 1982. They married in 1971 in Essex.
My dad is 50% Essex, 25% Oxfordshire and 25% Suffolk.
My mum is 50% Essex, 25% Durham and 25% London.
I am an 8th London, 8th Suffolk, 8th Durham, 8th Oxfordshire and 4 8ths Essex.
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I was born in Kent - south of the River Medway (not sure whether that makes me a Kentish Maid or a Maid of Kent)
My mother was born in Sussex and her female line is Sussex through and through, as far as she is aware, but who knows!
Her father was born in Lewisham.
My father was born in London with 1/4 English, 1/4 Welsh, 1/4 Scottish and 1/4 Irish blood in him!
I consider myself to be English, but always in the back of my mind is the fact that I am not pure blood English! Thinking about it, I doubt whether anyone is! I am sure that someone will take me up on that!
snaptoo
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I dont think anyone can be pure blood Irish either. They will probably find Norman and Viking and Spanish blood in them and even English and Scottish.
I have French Huguenot ancestors. Some came from south western France. I wonder if France had many people moving there from surrounding countries over the centuries?
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My grandparents were English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish...so I guess that makes me 100% British. In fact, much more British than my OH, who is English ;D ;D
I was born in Canada, so I'm 100% Canadian.
I'm a naturalized US citizen now, so that makes me 100% American.
As Annie pointed out, it's your choice. I guess it also depends on the context, or who you're talking to :)
Snaptoo, south of the Medway would be east of it, right? So you'd be a Maid of Kent :)
Cheers,
China
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I have an ancestor who emigrated to America and died there so I have an ancestor who is buried in America.
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100% American; it doesn't matter where the ancestors came from.
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That shows that some people have different views. If you were born in London to Suffolk parents then you can consider yourself a 100% Londoner because you were born and raised there never mind where the parents came from, some people see it for where they and they only were born and raised.
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slightly off topic ... I know 'American' refers to someone from the United States of America, but since it's a continent it's always struck me as a slightly strange term, like me saying that I'm European.. instead of Irish
Shane
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I remember falling out with a girl I was in halls with at university over this :smiles wryly: I always disputed her claim to be Welsh as she was London-born to Welsh parents (although her home address was Monmouthshire) but didn't speak the language; 13 years later, I don't think someone's nationality (or do I mean national identity?) can be governed by birthplace alone - if a baby is born e.g. in France to non-French parents, does that make them French? By birth, technically, yes, but...
Katie
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My great, great gran was born in December 1863 in Sussex but her parents moved to London just after her birth and she was baptised in November 1864 in Stoke Newington, London. She lived from 1865 to 1876 ish in Bow, then 1876 to 1878 in Lambeth and Walworth then from 1878 to 1886 in Holborn and from then on in Islington and Camden dying in Archway Hospital, North London in 1943.
She was not actually born in London but because she was baptised there and grew up there and lived there for 99.5% of her life, I consider her a true Londoner and she grew up in various parts of London.
Being born in London is not the only qualification for being a Londoner as much as growing up there is. Because she grew up in London she was a Londoner.
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Snaptoo, south of the Medway would be east of it, right? So you'd be a Maid of Kent :) Cheers, China
Hi China!
Yes, just checked, Maid O Kent I am! Never have been able to remember which was which!!!!!!!
snaptoo
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slightly off topic ... I know 'American' refers to someone from the United States of America, but since it's a continent it's always struck me as a slightly strange term, like me saying that I'm European.. instead of Irish
Shane
Here in South America, people understandably object to the term ‘americano’ being used for citizens of the US. In fact, they often call the country Los Estados Unidos de Norteamérica and its citizens ‘norteamericanos’ even though there are other countries in North America. Sometimes they object to Estados Unidos, too, because that phrase has been included in the official names of some other republics [e.g., México and also Venezuela, Colombia and Brasil in the past].
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If you come from certain places where there was historically a high proportion of migrations of people with a distinct culture, religion, language or surname you are always going to retain a sense of having come from somewhere else. If those people influenced your accent then every time you open your mouth something of your ancestors is speaking through you.
C
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Some people reckon the Australian accent is similar to the London accent. Call me blind but I cannot see a similarity.
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The origin of accents can be a tricky issue. I think the Liverpool accent has both Irish and Welsh influences aswell as the local Lancastrian English but the experts usually say the accent is a hybrid of only Lancastrian English and Irish. No Welsh influences. I find this hard to believe as the Welsh of North Wales came here in great numbers before the Irish and most of them spoke Welsh. Often when people go from one language to another they speak the new language with an accent.
C
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I think regarding accents this is influenced by how your parents speak.
I was born in Liverpool and from the age of 2 months lived in Huyton. I remember being told off and on occasions smacked for "talking down my nose" :)
68 years later, unless I have a cold or am among fellow scousers, I don't have a Liverpool accent although I still use phrases I grew up with.
Having lived in my village in West Sussex for nearly 40 years I am now considered by many to be a local ;D
Jean
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I'm a citizen of the world - I'm over all this territorial rubbish. Sure, I love where I live, but I love lots of other places in the world too :)
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Some people reckon the Australian accent is similar to the London accent. Call me blind but I cannot see a similarity.
The only people who ever said that to me were Americans, just after Crocodile Dundee was a hit in America :)
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That nasal sound in accents has disappeared over the years you can imagine how it developed amongst people in industrialised cities. If you listen to old clips of The Beatles talking they sometimes sound like they have colds. The best example of this English industrialised nasal effected accent are some of the West Midlands/Birmingham accents.
C
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I dont think the Australian accent resembles a London accent or a South England accent but the American accent does sound slightly Irish. I know millions of Irish went to America.
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I dont think the Australian accent resembles a London accent or a South England accent but the American accent does sound slightly Irish. I know millions of Irish went to America.
America is a vast country and there is no such thing as an 'American accent.'
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America is a vast country and there is no such thing as an 'American accent.'
American and other accents:
http://accent.gmu.edu/howto.php
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I'm 100% English as far back as I've been able to go on both sides of my family. In fact, not just English - you can draw a line from Cornwall, going through Glos, Oxfordshire, Warks, Oxfordshire again, Bucks, nip through Surrey, up to Essex, Cambridge and Norfolk and that's my ancestry covered.
My ex is slightly more exotic - Irish, Jewish and Welsh roots, so our children have a more mixed heritage than I have.
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I think regarding accents this is influenced by how your parents speak.
Very true... I am a Northerner, but my mother is a Southerner - she worked part time when I was in school so I would pick up her well-spoken tones during the holidays and spend a few weeks at the beginning of every term trying to shed them again (the area of NE Wales I grew up in is very Scouse!).
Katie
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Jorose - thanks for the great link. I have just spent way too much time clicking around the world to listen to many speech patterns. But aghadowey is right that there is no "American accent"; one might also say there is no "English accent", or no "Australian (Strilian) accent". There are simply regional speech variations. Here is a link that includes a map (as well as other interesting points) about that US variation: http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/standardamerican/#
Nick
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I dont think the Australian accent resembles a London accent or a South England accent but the American accent does sound slightly Irish. I know millions of Irish went to America.
There are more people of direct Irish descent in New York than there are in Ireland :)
British accents have been mixed with both native and European accents over the last 300 years due to immigration and population movement, but the sheer size of America has meant that there are still small pockets of communities using language which would have been familiar to British people 300 years ago. The American accent still varies widely from state to state.
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I like the bit of Scots blood I have in me. Several of my friends have some Scottish in them and I feel at home then. I checked the 1901 census and over 300,000 Scots were in England at that time. And about half a million Irish.
Some people say that lots of Scots originated in Ireland but I wouldn't always bank on that. I think a lots of Scots, like Irish, originated in Scandinavia.
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further to my post previous clearly i am English being born in England but i have origins elsewhere :)
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do you stop at your great-grand parents and work down from there or go back futher ??? or only count from your grandparents etc.... where exactly is the stopping point. and if someone knows then could they then tell me what I am if I have two gtx3 grandparents from Ireland.
Kind regards
Charles
Hi, it stops with yourself
I"m 100% Welsh , born bred and raised in Wales
My mother is Irish and my father is Welsh. - I never say I'm half Welsh Irish , and never will
I hold three passports.
(two are by birth right and one is applied for )
I feel sad for people who do not know who they are. To me it's a bit like looking in a mirror and don't recognise the image staring back out - so very sad - looking for something that doesn't exist
I feel true love for my country, I'd fight for my country - It's like a mum or dad - it's just there - it's part of you whether you like it or not ,you have no choice to love- it is your being. and you'd fight to death for it
Kind regards
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I feel sad for people who do not know who they are...............
Bearing in mind that few of us can trace their family trees beyond the 15th century, and mankind has been on this planet for at least 150,000 years, I wouldn't be so bold as to profess that I knew who I am. I am the sum of my parts, but I have only an inkling as to who these 'parts' were. 10 generations doesn't make a dynasty.
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if you need to trace family history to find out who you are" that's sad.
You are your own person.
I know who I am
Kind regards
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It's up to the individual to decide what is sad, and what is not.
I understand who I am, but I could not do that without knowing my parents (and probably their parents too). When I look at myself, I see a little of them in me.
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I know who I am, in many respects, but if I take
"to know who I am"
to mean
"to find out who and where I came from, and how, and to fit that into the sum of the parts of what I am today"
then family history helps me to understand some aspects of myself ("the sum of my parts") better.
Bob
ps. officially I'm english (by birth, passport, etc), otherwise I'm european (ancestors, places of abode, etc)
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One 4 x g.grandfather was Scottish, the rest appear to be English but from many parts of the UK. I had thought mainly from Norfolk, Suffolk, Lincolnshire, Lancashire, Yorkshire and Cheshire. Then I found out one of my g.grandfather's was apparently from Bethnal Green (no proof yet). However, on the Norfolk side and Suffolk side, I've now found that going further back their ancestors came from Buckinghamshire, London around St Paul's area, and owned land in Essex, Kent and Middlesex. Before starting on my family tree, I considered myself to be a Lancashire lass, who lived in Cheshire. Now I think I'm a total mongrel ::) ::)
Lizzie
ps. There's also a rumour that one of my 13 x g.grandfather's was a master cook for royalty. Not found any proof of that though and don't know how I would.
Hi Lizie, yep mine now seem to be from everywhere too haha! but I am going to have my dna done later.. cannot wait ! ho the fun of it all.. about the cook sometimes these peeps turn up in the peerage pages because they may have had children born into old historic royalty.. another place to see is google in your name and old dates.. i have found heaps of info of old history in my name lineages there. regards Di.
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My great, great, great nan was born in Foulness, Essex in 1866. Her parents had wed in London, her mum was from Oxfordshire with a tad of Bucks ancestors and her fathers family were from Essex and Suffolk.
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I don't like the love of country when it comes to fighting other nations. That sort of love can easily turn to hatred of those who don't belong to the tribe.
C
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I don't like the love of country when it comes to fighting other nations. That sort of love can easily turn to hatred of those who don't belong to the tribe.
C
Well said :)
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I agree with you [two] too. there is nothing worse than sticking together like glue to the peeps from ones own country so o speak just because they are from the same place as yourself!! when you know that if they are in the wrong, why side with them while knowing that the argument or similar is correct from the other side of the fence and not from your own [at the time] united we stand ... birds of a feather... but there is good and bad in everyone regardless of where they came from.. x also thank you all for helping me around the lost inbox thing ame jig.. that i wrote in about.. I did say t u but cannot see where the reply went now though.. hmmn from a dizzy one ::)
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I could always consider myself 100% Norfolk never mind my parents coming from Essex. They moved here in 1975.
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also thank you all for helping me around the lost inbox thing ame jig.. that i wrote in about.. I did say t u but cannot see where the reply went now though..
The Outbox thread is still in How to Use Rootschat- you can always check your previous posts through your profile page
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,487823.msg3461410.htm