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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: taggg on Tuesday 28 September 10 15:38 BST (UK)
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HELP
In doing my research on my family tree i have come across the possibility that i am related to William Wallace going from John McKinnon`s Mother Agnes Clelland to Kneland to wallace, eventually getting to Adam Wallace, who is my 25th Great grandfather?
making William Wallace my 1st cousin 25 x removed????.
My question is was William Wallaces father Alan or Sir Malcolm as there seems to be some confusion over this, during my research i have come across this passage.
"Born - While his date of birth is taken as 1272 in many sources, there is no firm evidence to support any date. Indeed a range of dates of 1260 to 1278 have been used, that's 18 years of a difference!
Father - His father is generally taken to be Sir Malcolm Wallace of Elderslie in Paisley. He was a descendant of a Richard Wallace, or "le Waleis" " the Welshman - who had come to Scotland to serve in the royal household of King David I in the early part of the 12th century. Blind Harry states that Sir Malcolm was William Wallace's father. However, there is evidence that his father might have been another man: Alan Wallace. Wallace's seal on the "Lubeck Letter", the letter Wallace and Andrew Murray sent as Guardians in 1297, says "William, son of Alan Wallace". There is also an Alan Wallace on the Ragman Roll. (The Ragman Roll being the record of those Scottish landowners who swore loyalty to Edward I in 1296.) As this Alan Wallace is listed on the Roll as being from Ayr, it could be that William Wallace may well have been born in Ellerslie, which is near Kilmarnock, and not Elderslie near Paisley.
Family - It is known that Wallace had 2 brothers: Malcolm and John who were also involved in the struggle. John died in London in similar circumstances to that of his brother.
Marriage - It is not known for certain if William Wallace was married or not, or if he had children. His killing of the Sheriff of Lanark in 1297 is believed to have been as vengeance for the murder of his wife, Marion Braidfute. "
I am now at a loss as to which is the correct father Alan or Sir Malcolm.
Any help appreciated
Regards
William
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hi i take it you have read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wallace
http://www.waichung.demon.co.uk/william/wallace.htm
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That's a fine piece of researching getting so far back. I can only get to 1786 on my tree :(
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Perhaps you might find this old Grampian Club book from the Harvard Library of interest? The Wallace family is second or third down.
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William1
Both of those links give two fathers or am i reading it wrong ????
This is what i am trying to clarify or is just a case of it may be one or the other ????
Regards
William
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Doubt this will answer your question but it clarifies how much documentation is out there:
http://www.nas.gov.uk/about/100604.asp
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no you are reading it right
but i have always been told that his father
was not a lord
and that wallace went to the crusades
and bruce never left scotland
and i was always told that wallace and bruce
never ever meet. one another at all
and that wallace was born in elderslie
there is a monument for him there as well
and i used to know the family that shopped
wallace to the english and it was in glasgow
as well. they still stay in lanark scotland
all they did was change there last name
he was betrayed and captured by another Scot, Sir John de Menteith.
they are now montheith. o and they also hate rob roy as well
(born c. 1270, , probably near Paisley, Renfrew, Scot.—died Aug. 23, 1305, London, Eng.) one of Scotland's greatest national heroes, leader of the Scottish resistance forces during the first years of the long, and ultimately successful, struggle to free Scotland from English rule.
His father, Sir Malcolm Wallace, was a small landowner in Renfrew. In 1296 King Edward I of England deposed and imprisoned the Scottish king John de Balliol and declared himself ruler of Scotland. Sporadic resistance had already occurred when, in May 1297, Wallace and a band of some 30 men burned Lanark and killed its English sheriff. Wallace then organized an army of commoners and small landowners and attacked the English garrisons between the Rivers Forth and Tay. On Sept. 11, 1297, an English army under John de Warenne, earl of Surrey, confronted him at the Forth near Stirling. Wallace's forces were greatly outnumbered, but Surrey had to cross a narrow bridge over the Forth before he could reach the Scottish positions. By slaughtering the English as they crossed the river, Wallace gained an overwhelming victory. He captured Stirling Castle, and for the moment Scotland was nearly free of occupying forces. In October he invaded northern England and ravaged the counties of Northumberland and Cumberland.
Upon returning to Scotland early in December 1297, Wallace was knighted and proclaimed guardian of the kingdom, ruling in Balliol's name. Nevertheless, many nobles lent him only grudging support; and he had yet to confront Edward I, who was campaigning in France. Edward returned to England in March 1298, and on July 3 he invaded Scotland. On July 22 Wallace's spearmen were defeated by Edward's archers and cavalry in the Battle of Falkirk, Stirling. Although Edward failed to pacify Scotland before returning to England, Wallace's military reputation was ruined. He resigned his guardianship in December and was succeeded by Robert de Bruce (later King Robert I) and Sir John Comyn “the Red.”
There is some evidence that Wallace went to France in 1299 and thereafter acted as a solitary guerrilla leader in Scotland; but from the autumn of 1299 nothing is known of his activities for more than four years. Although most of the Scottish nobles submitted to Edward in 1304, the English continued to pursue Wallace relentlessly. On Aug. 5, 1305, he was arrested near Glasgow. Taken to London, he was condemned as a traitor to the king even though, as he maintained, he had never sworn allegiance to Edward. He was hanged, disemboweled, beheaded, and quartered. In 1306 Bruce raised the rebellion that eventually won independence for Scotland.
Many of the stories surrounding Wallace have been traced to a late 15th-century romance ascribed to Henry the Minstrel, or “Blind Harry.” The most popular tales are not supported by documentary evidence, but they show Wallace's firm hold on the imagination of his people. A huge monument (1861–69) to Wallace stands atop the rock of Abbey Craig near Stirling.
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If the royal tenant Alan on the Ragman Roll was indeed the father of William Wallace, would this not put him south of the river Ayr, in Kyle Regis? Not in Kyle Stewart or Cunningham.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/learningzone/clips/wallaces-birthplace/4695.html
Wallace's Birthplace Duration: 01:49 Historians have presumed that Wallace was the son of Sir Malcolm Wallace of Elderslie and was born in Ayrshire. The basis for this was a poem written 150 years after the time of Wallace by a minstrel called Blind Harry. Examination of the seal which was sent on a letter to Lubeck after the battle of Stirling Bridge named Wallace's real father as Allan Wallace, a royal tenant living in Ayrshire at that time. This clip has subtitles available in Flash.
As far as I can see, this is the first solid evidence of Wallaces parenthood but it seems to be getting ignored.
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I have a family tree with William Wallce being born in Elderslie, Renfrew in 1270
son of Malcolm Wallace born in Renfrew 1240
son of Adam Wallace born Elderslie,Renfrew 1223
son of Adam Wallace born Riccarton , Ayr 1202
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William, re' Wallace being of Welsh ancestry. Southern Scotland was at one time a British kingdom, Welsh was the language spoken in Strathclyde as the placenames show. The language was probably still spoken in parts of SW Scotland in Wallace's time. Skoosh.
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"the seal which was sent on a letter to Lubeck after the battle of Stirling Bridge named Wallace's real father as Allan Wallace,"
William Wallace said his father was Allan Wallace.
Surely that means that Allan Wallace was William's father; end of story?
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I'm with the father being Alan, but who is his mother then???
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G’day, we have discovered Wallace ancestors in our family tree living in Ayrshire in the late 1700’s.
We’ve not been as lucky as other posters who have managed to trace so far back in time, but we are interested to find out more about any other later Wallace generations please.
Do you know for sure that Sir William Wallace was born in Elderslie?
My ancestor Sara Wallace (record attached) was baptised 1793 in Mauchline Ayreshire (30 miles south of Elderslie) to Robert Wallace and Agnes Adamson. We estimate Robert Wallace was born sometime between 1772 to 1775, but we’re not 100% sure who his parents were.
Sara Wallace and her husband lived in Govan between 1819 to 1825, about 9 miles east of Elderslie.
Robert Wallace lived in Galstone at one point in time, about 26 miles south of Elderslie.
Any help with the Wallace clan would be appreciated.
Regards,
Stephen
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Re Wallace being of Welsh ancestry. Southern Scotland was at one time a British kingdom, Welsh was the language spoken in Strathclyde as the placenames show.
The surname Wallace is from the same root as the word 'Welsh'. Basically, it means ' a foreigner' or 'a stranger', and it crops up, with variations, all over Europe.
This is what the Oxford English Dictionary says: Cognate with Old Frisian walsk ‘French’ (rare), Old High German walesg , walisc , walahisc ‘Latin’, ‘Romance’ (Middle High German walhisch , welhisch , walsch , welsch ‘Italian’, ‘French’, ‘Romance’; German welsch , in the same senses), Middle Dutch walsc ‘French’, ‘Italian’, ‘Walloon’, ‘speaking a Romance language, especially French’ (Dutch waalsch ‘Walloon’, ‘speaking a Romance language, especially French’), Middle Low German Walsch , Wallesch ‘Romance, especially Italian’, Old Icelandic valskr ‘foreign, especially French’, Old Swedish valsker ‘French’, ‘Italian’, ‘from a southern country’, ‘foreign’ (Swedish välsk ), Danish vælsk ‘from a Romance-speaking country, especially Italian or (sometimes) French’, (also) ‘Welsh’ < the Germanic base of Old English Wealh , Walh (see note below) + Germanic base of -ish suffix1. Compare post-classical Latin Waliscus , Walliscus (1086 in Domesday Book; c1114 in a Latin version of the early Old English Laws of Ine: compare quot. eOE at Welshman n. 1aα. ), Anglo-Norman Waleis , Walais , Gualeis , Galays , etc., Old French galeis , galeis , (northern) walois , walesche (French gallois ) (adjective) ‘Welsh’ (c1170), (noun) ‘Welsh person’, ‘the Welsh language’ (both 1155), ‘the French language’ (c1283, only in Old French and Middle French in areas bordering Germanic speaking territories). Compare also post-classical Latin Wallensis , Gualensis , Galensis (from 1086 in British sources), Valicus , Wallicus (from 1252 in British sources), both adjectives in sense ‘Welsh’, Wallus , Guallus (adjective) ‘Welsh’, (noun) ‘Welshman’ (from a1142 in British sources), etc.
So even Gaul and Gallic, and de Gaulle, are from the same root. And I believe that the surname Guelph or Welf is also connected.
So while it is true that the surname 'Wallace' basically means 'Welsh', it isn't evidence that he is actually a descendant of someone who came fromwhat we would now call Wales. The word would be used by the Anglian population of Lothian and Northumbria to describe a speaker of the British language from the south-west of Scotland.
PS the modern German-speaking wine industry uses a type of grape they call 'Welschriesling', indicating that it is a 'foreign' stock.
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Folks, a potted history, with maps, of the languages of Scotland, http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/arts-and-culture
Skoosh
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Excellent, Skoosh. Thank you.
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Kneland or Cleland pronounced Cleeland or Kneeland with K pronounced. its a strathclyde briton name. Family is not related to Clelland family which comes from McClelland McLellan and from that Gilfillan meaning Son of the Servant to the Abbot meaning St. Fillan
I would say that Wallace would be Strathclyde name as they spoke a Welsh Briton language spoken in Strathclyde. But would different from Wales, Welsh language
if your Agnes is Cleland and not Clelland and that you line goes back to Alexander Kneland of that Ilk (meaning Cleland of Cleland) then you are related to Sir William Wallace as Alexander married Margaret Wallace how was Aunt to Sir William Wallace and it was James Kneland how fought along side Wallace.
my family were charge art and part in Murder of Lord Darnely Mary Queen of Scot's husband
Marriage - It is not known for certain if William Wallace was married or not, or if he had children. His killing of the Sheriff of Lanark in 1297 is believed to have been as vengeance for the murder of his wife, Marion Braidfute. This is not true as this comes from a later version of the poem story that the family paid to have there name put into it. 1st version does not say anything about wife, Marion Braidfute.
KneClel
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I think that Adam Wallace is most probably William Wallace's father because William says he is.
Although, in researching the Crawfords' I found interesting information about Wallace's mother (Margaret Crawfurd according to Clan Crawford, sister of the Sheriff of Ayr) and the Crawfords links to William Wallace but they claim Malcolm Wallace as the father :-\
Mo
http://www.clancrawford.org/pers.asp#4
and scroll down to "The Wars of Independence" for William Wallace info http://www.clancrawford.org/hist.asp
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That's amazing! I'm related to William Wallace as well. He is my Great Grandfather x18 removed. Would that make us related?
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Anything is possible in genealogy, Skye Blue ;)
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What would that make you? And where do you live? I'm from The USA
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If I'm related to Wallace it's through his mother's, (if she was infact a Crawford), family and then not her branch of the Crawfords but a cousin branch to hers - (so not a direct descendent of Wallace) - and my brain's not big enough to work out that relationship ::)
Mo (in Australia)