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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: nairobi on Monday 27 September 10 11:56 BST (UK)
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Please can anyone help break through my brick wall? I am searching for ancestors of William John Gould, born 1835. in England
I don't know where, nor do I know his parents' names. I have a copy of his marriage entry in church, which gives his father as Thomas - but there are so many Thomas Goulds in 1841 and 1851 census with sons calles Thomas that it could be any of them.
He will not appear in the 1861 census because by then he was in Bombay, India, having married a Mary Ann Davis there July 19th 1860 - this is the only confirmed info i have.
I can trace his family from his marrige down to present day, but cannot go back until I know his parents and place of birrrrth. Any help would be gratefully received.
BEst wishes
Betty
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hi betty
just for clarity was william in the army by an chance , is that the reason he was in india plus did he marry in india , if not do you know wherein england
trevor
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Hi Trevor,
He was married in Bombay, India. Family talk has it that he was a captain in the service of Gaikwar of Baroda, but cannot confirm this . H e would have had to be in army risen to that rank between age 20 (1855) and out of the army by 1860, living locally to be a clerk at time of his marriage.
Thanks for your interest
Betty
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Can you give us the info on the marriage cert, fathers occupation, witnesses.
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Hi Sue
What I have is not an actual marriage certificate. It is a copy of the church record held in St Thomas Cathedral, Bombay.It gives the date 19/7/1860 . There is no father's occupation, just his name -Thomas. Mary Ann's father is Samuel. The witnesses are Laura Stanley, William Coates and John G.Byrne.
Have you a connection?
Best wishes
Betty
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No connection, just trying to see if we can find some info for you.
Did they come back to England, are they likely to be in any later English census?
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Hi
FIBIS:
http://www.fibis.org/
The Times of India (Marriages 25 July 1859 to 11 May 1861 ) - Edition 175, 23 Jul 1860
(Also in the Bombay Almanac BMD dataset - Transcription of Marriage Announcements 1806 - 1867)
On the 19th July at St Andrew's Cathedral Mr William John Gould to Miss Mary Ann Davies of Kingston Surrey late from England
Your Rootsweb Query:
http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/INDIA/2010-09/1284560532
One of the replies
http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/INDIA/2010-09/1285227048
Suggested the following fellow, whose christening is on SearchLabs:
http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#start
William John GOULD
Chr: 16 May 1836, South Newton, Wiltshire
Father: Thomas GOULD
Mother: Elizabeth Ellen GOULD
This looks to me to be the Census for that Family:
1841: Stoford - Parish of South Newton, Hundred of Branch & Dole, Wiltshire
HO107 / Piece 1167 / Book: 9 / Folio: _, Pg 1
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Thomas GOULD 30, Inn Keeper - N
Elizabeth GOULD 25 - N
Wiliam GOULD 5 - Y
/
Jane BILLETE 55 - N
Suzane MOULAIN? 20, FS - N
James HINWOOD 15, Ag Lab - Y
John F(R)YFROM? 40, AG Lab - Y
Fanny SPARCEY 20, FS - Y
George SPACEY 20, AG Lab - Y
//
1851: Swan Inn, Tything of Stoford, parish of South Newton, Wiltshire
HO107 / Piece: 1848 / Folio: 102 / Page: 35
Head: Thomas GOULD 42, Inn Keeper, b St Giles, Dorset
Wife: Elizabeth A* GOULD 36, b Crawley, Hants
Visitor: Jane BILLET 77, widow, Annuittant, b Loades? Dorset (maybe Loders?)
Servant: Fanny SPACEY 29, unm, Barmaid, b Codford Wilts
Servant: Mary SNELGROVE 50, widow, House Servant, b Budpit?, Dorset
Servant: Thomas WHALLEY (or WHATLEY) 55, marr, Malster, b Woodford, Wilts
Servant: James HENWOOD 26, unm, Lab (inn Servt), b Steeple Langford, Wilts
Servant: Charles BIDWELL 18?, Ag Lab (in door?), b Bremhill Wilts
(* overwritten as an A, but can't see what was initially written under it - could be an E?)
1851: High Street - Winchester St Maurice, Hampshire
HO107 / Piece: 1674 / Folio: 234 / Page: 4
Apprentice: William GOULD 15, unm, Draper's Assistant, b Storford, Wilts
In household of Charles GASK 26, a Lincolnshire born Draper & employer
One of 2 Apprentices, - household also includs: 1 other apprentice, 1 assistant, 1 assisstant's assistant, 1 cook, 1 Houseservant
And the mother, brother and sister of the household Head:
Which when comparing to the following FIBIS entry, looks promising - you said your WJG was a Clerk and out of the army by the time he married?
FIBIS:
http://www.fibis.org/
Entry from Bombay Soldiers Records 1851-1857 A-K
William GOULDS
Occupation before enlisting: Clerk
Town & Country: Salisbury, Wiltshire
Where first Enlisted: London
Date of Attestation: 2 Jul 1855 - enlisted for 12 years
Arrived (in India) on the ship "Kingston" in 1855
Discharged: Discharged 27 December 1858. Cas. List Dec 1858
IOR Ref: L/MIL/12/113
I can't find the Storford born WJG after 1851.....
Cheers
AMBLY
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South Newton Wilts is 2 miles N of Wilton
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/WIL/SouthNewton/index.htm
Wilton is 3 miles NW of Salisbury
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/WIL/Wilton/index.htm
Cheers
AMBLY
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Thank you Suffolk Sue, William died in India and his widow and children came back here. I have all the descendants.
I have now received information from the replies to my question which matches up with my family and I can move forward.
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Dear Ambly,
Wow! That is a great result, thank you so much. I tried FIBIS and asked for William Gould but didn't get anything, so maybe I wasn't using it right.
However, I'm sure you have found the right man . His marriage entry in 1860 ( two years after discharge), states him as Clerk unemployed, he is a'casualty' so maybe not fit to journey back to England? Or under treatment? He and his wife Mary Ann stayed in India until his death in 1869, she returned home with two children , I have all the descendants down to the present day, the youngest being my grand children.
I am going to Records office Kew on Oct 12th, with this information from you , I hope to see his military papers and find out even more. Thanks a million.
Betty
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Dear Ambly,
Just for your interest, I can confirm that Jane Billett (1841 & 1851) census came from LODERS a village near to BRIDPORT where Mary Snelgrove was born. I lived in Bridport myself until recently . Mental arithmetic was not a strong point in those days was it? Jane was 55 in 1851 but 10 years later was 77! I am hoping that she turns out to be Elizabeth Ellen's mother.
Nairobi
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Dear Ambly,
I can go one further now that i have sussed out the FIBIS site. I found all the references you gave me, and then the children of W.J and Mary Ann, but the really, really exciting find was the death of William John Gould in 1870 in The Times of India. It says that Capt. W.J.Gould , H.H the Gaekwar's 4th regiment, son of the late Thomas Gould of Stoford, Salisbury, Wilts. died of Chronic dysentery.
So because of your help I've been able to verify the family 'talk' that W.J was in service of Gaekwar of Baroda! If the fact of his father and birth place had not been given , there would still have been a tiny eliment of doubt, even though many other facts matched up. ( There is after all another Mary Ann Davis married to a William in India).
I'm pleased to have the actual marriege entry copy, as The Times gives them married in St Andrew's Cathedral, Bombay Church of Scotland), but it was St Thomas' Cath, which is C of E.
W.J had been discharged from army in 1856 had the title 'Mr' and was a Clerk on the marriage entry, but by 1866 birth of first child he is a Captain as he remained in all other references until his death. This puzzles me, hope i can find an answer at Kew.
Thanks again
Nairobi
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Hi Nairobi
Wow, wonderful - what a fantastic find, bet that made you whoop! ;D ;D ! I 8) didn't see that one (I searched William GOULD, not GOULD by itself!)
I did find, reference to the ship he arrived on:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09w0/
Allen's indian mail.....1855
Embarkation of Troops
"Per Kingston from Gravesend 15 August, 252 Company's Recruits;
Capt. C F Kueller, 11th N.I.; Lt W H Whitock, 5th Madras N.I.; Conductor
Charles Finn; Asst Surgeon, J S Nicholson M.D., Bombay Estab."
You may have already picked up from Search Labs (links given earlier):
Thomas GOULD and Elizabeth Ellen BILLET married 18 Sep 1833, Winterborne-Whitchurch, Dorset
Also the christening of a daughter:
Elizabeth Ellen GOULD 8 Dec 1839, South Newton Wilts
Then, on FreeBMD - all in Wilton District (covers Stoford) : the 1839 Birth Reg of Elizabeth Ellen GOULD, and death registration in 1840 of the same name - which is probably the death of the baby girl (as she didn't appear on 1841 Census). But there is also a death registration of an Elizabeth Ellen GOULD in 1845 - which 'looks' like the death of WJ's mother/ Thomas GOULD's wife.
Which would indicate the Elizabeth A on the 1851 is a new wife (albiet a similar age and name, and also not born in Wiltshire but explains the "A" initital in 1851) Can't find a marriage for Thomas GOULD 1845-1851 in Wilts to fit - but on Search Labs: a marriage:
Thomas GOULD, son of William GOULD married in West Tytherly,Hampshire on 18 Jul 1849 to Elizabeth Ann READ, dau of George READ
Then finding Elizabeth GOULD b Crawley Hants abt 1815, in Hants in 1861 as a widow in household of a her brother, READ. She goes right thru the Census to 1891, at least once fully named as Elizabeth Ann GOULD - and has a daughter Anna GOULD b 1851 Stoford who is with Elizabeth all through (except the 1861 when Anna is at a school). In 1901 Anna is with READ cousins & unmarried at age 49.
Can post Census for you if you like!
AND, there is a tree on A**rty with Thomas GOULD (~1809 - ~1855-61) and Elizabeth Ann READ ~1815-~1893) - & their 2 children : Anna b abt 1851 Stopford Wilts (sic)and Thomas b abt 1855 Stratford (sic) Wilts. The tree makes no mention of Thomas GOULD snr having been previously married to Elizabeth Ellen BILLETT or having a son with her named William John; nor does it reference the 1841 Census - though it has referenced the 1851 and forward from there.
Cheers
AMBLY
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HI Ambly,
You are so good to me! I do appreciate your findings, you could so easily give me the references and leave me to it!.
I subscribe to ANC***RY so will find my way around all your info, it is fascinating. If you are anything like me , this Fam Hist research becoimes an addiction, I have abndoned all my housework today and realise I have been sitting here for over 3 hours, flipping from one census and person to another trying to find Mary Ann's antescedants.
But must stop and get on with something else. -
Many , many thanks
Nairobi.
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Hi, I am a descendent of William John Goulds son George Frederick, would you be able to share ally our information as you seem to have got further tham me! Hope to hear from you.
Regards Amanda
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Hi Nairobi,
I am currently researching the ancestry of a school friend, Tina Gould. William John Gould (1836-1869) was her Great Great Grandfather. But, I am unable to access the two articles about his marriage and death in the Indian Times and wondered if you can help me ?