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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: Hurley on Saturday 25 September 10 08:58 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Is the person on a marriage record as surety the same as a witness? I'm having difficulty finding the birth of Isabella Hartley. The IGI has her married to Samuel Dickinson in 1788 as Isabella Hartley. The parish record of her marriage to Samuel Dickinson says..... Samuel Dickinson of Chester le Street obtained a licence to marry Isabella Heatley of Brancepeth on 22nd Jan 1788 at Brancepeth. Surety was John Emmerson of Humble Sledge. They were married the same day as licence was granted. Samuel was born Chester le street and after the marriage the couple lived the rest of their lives at Chester le street. I can't trace the birth for Isabella. Why would she have John Emmerson as surety? Could she have worked for him? I can't find a birth for her in Brancepeth.
Help please,
Hurley
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Some one a bit cleverer than me could answer that It could be like a marriage bond,she could have been an apprentice any thing ,
there are three births that you could look at ,
1, Isabel Hartley ,23rd June 1765 ,Gateshead daughter of William Hartley,
2, Isabel Hartley ,20th July 1872, Berwick upon Tweed , daughter of Benjamin and Jane Hartley,
omit number 2 ,she died 1879 ,
3, Isabel Artley ,27th December 1872 ,Chester Lee Street,daughter of Walter and Eleanor Artley
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At that time when applying for a marriage licence someone had to stand surety to guarantee that the couple were both free to marry each other according to the requirements of Cannon Law. This was because the licence replaced the normal calling of banns.
The surety could be for a large amount of money, hundreds sometimes thousands of pounds, However they did not have to find the money unless the marriage was subsequently found to be invalid. There were usually two bondsmen one of whom was usually the bridegroom. This requirement continued until 1823.
David
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Thanks guys,
I have narrowed it down to one Isabel Hartley born 1765 Gateshead. As you said Radcliff, Isabella from Berwick died young and so did Isabella 1872 Chester le street, she died 1875 so that leaves Isabel Hartley 1865 Gateshead.
The reason I thought Isabel may have worked for John Emmerson was because the lisence stated she was of Brancepeth which to me say's she could have been living there at the time of the marriage rather than being actually born there.
Hurley.
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Hello ,I looked to see if I could find a link with John Emmerson to Isabella ,To many Johns born in Chester Le Street and Brancepeth to find a family connection,to the Hartly or Artley family,have you looked at the marriage bonds on familysearch org ,it is image 61/62 of 804, states Isabels age as 21 and Samuels as 25,
Good luck with your research
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If you haven't already seen it the marriage licence is here:
http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#c=fs%3A1675690&s=waypointsOnly&w=0&p=waypoint
Images 61 and 62
Christine
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Hi again,
Thank's for that link to see the actual document. So do you experienced recearchers think Isabella Hartley of this parish of Brancepeth means she was actually born there or that she just lived there at the time they applied for the licence?
Thank's again for help with this. :)
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It means no more than she was living there at the time of the marriage and says nothing about her place of birth.
However back in the 18th century the poorer non-property owning part of the population had an established parish of settlement. They would also be extremely unlikely to be married by licence in another parish.
David
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Well from my own research ,few of my people returned to their own parish to marry,if they had only a small income traveling home may have been unlikely,so have you looked to see if she had brothers and sisters her parents may have been living in the parish as well as Isabel
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I'm with Radcliff on this one - Brancepeth was/is very rural and Agricultural workers were notorious for moving around - children baptised all over the place!
Information on Brancepeth here -
http://www.joinermarriageindex.com/pjoiner/genuki/DUR/Brancepeth/index.html
If she was in service she could have hailed from anywhere but I would start by searching the neighbouring parishes - remembering that not all records are online. She could be lurking anywhere!
Christine
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I see from the bishops transcripts page 237 Chester Le Street that Samuel and Isabel had a
daughter Mary baptised 10th April 1788,his occupation is weaver ,
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followed by a son Mathias ,June 14th 1789,
and Ann 31st July 1791,
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Radcliff,
Thank's for that one. I hadn't found Mary's birth and always suspected Isabella may have been expecting a baby when they married. I have all the other children, Mathias (Mathew) being my 3x g grandad. The Dickinson side has been quite easy to research. I have most of the family back to 1720 but the branch of Hartley's are proving more difficult. I think the fact that Isabel was expecting points to her being married away form home because of the shame of pregnancy out of wedlock at that time. I know from others in my tree that young women either went away or were sent away to save their families the disgrace. Oh how times have changed!
Hurley.
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Radcliff,
Maybe you could help me with this one! Samuel Dickinson married Isabella Hartley. On the licence his occopation is Yoeman. They move to Chester le street and on their childrens birth records his occupation is weaver until his daughter Ann dies in 1792. On this record he is recorded as a pauper. How do you go from a yoeman to a pauper in 4yrs? He then died aged 36yrs from decay (pauper)in 1799. What do you think could have happened?
Hurley.
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Possibly to ill to work as a weaver ,hence he couldn't work,I am no historian so I cant actually give you any facts ,so possible scenario,
weavers some times had tied cottages ,loses his job and home ,gets taken on as a yeoman again his health deteriorates and he becomes a pauper,I don't know but lets face it there would be no medical care as such available to our ancestors ,
we are so lucky today that we don't have to struggle as they did just to survive,
Yes when I found the birth I thought that's it they had to hurry and marry ,it was so common to be pregnant when people married ,no shame was cast unless they didn't marry before the baby was born,
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The nearest modern day equivalent to a pauper is someone who is claiming benefit.
Because he died so young it sounds like he either developed an illness or had an accident - either would prevent him from working.
'benefit' payment was very localised then - every person had a 'legal place of settlement' (the parish responsible for them financially) which could be the parish in which they were born, served an apprenticeship, rented property above a certain value and others. Read up on the Poor Laws for more detail.
Do you know what happened to Isabella after he died? Unless she re-married quickly she too would have to make a claim on the parish but not necessarily the same parish as her husband. You could search records for Chester le Street to see whether there is any mention of a Removal Order or other documents relating to Isabella. There's a chance that this could lead you to her place of birth.
Christine
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Hello did you decide to pursue the birth of Isabel in Gateshead ,daughter of William
there is a marriage in Gateshead for a William Hartley and Margaret Lisle 10th March 1764,
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Hi Radcliffe,
Yes I am looking into the family you mention above. I am also going to look to see if Isabella made a claim to the parish after Samuel Died as Christine suggested. It's just knowing where to look as all this is fairly new to me. There is a marriage of an Isabella Dickinson to a John Minto both aged 60 in 1822. The death for Isabella Minto is in 1847. I know age is slightly out for Isabella but I am looking into that marriage also. I've looked for Isabella Minto in 1841 to see if it gave her birthplace but can find neither her or John on the census.
Heather.
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I have had a look at the transcript for the marriage it doesn't actually say widow ,but at sixty I would think it strange if she hadn't married,
entry into the register is 490,page 47/884 Chester Le Street,
John Minto of this parish aged 60 years and Isabella Dickinson of this parish aged 60 years were married in This church by banns ,this 18th day of February in the year 1822,
by me John Dodd sub curate,
both marked with a cross and the witness was a William Lewins also a cross the other witness appears on other entries so I guess he is some thing to do with the church,
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It's just knowing where to look as all this is fairly new to me.
Heather.
Most of the records (if they've survived) will be with Durham record office. They have a website www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk and an online catalogue. It doesn't show actual records but gives an outline of what is contained within them. There's an interesting one reference EP/CS 4/104 which includes information from the Overseers of the Poor about amounts paid to parishioners. It also says that Chester-le-Street had a poorhouse which is interesting.
It's also informative to look at www.workhouses.org.uk which says that the Chester-le-Street poorhouse had room for 100 people. That's quite large for early workhouses pre 1834 (Poor Law Amendment Act).
Incidentally, even if you could find Isabella on 1841 it would not inlcude place of birth - that information is only available from 1851. All you get from 1841 is whether a person was born within the county of residence.
Christine
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Thank's both of you,
You've been a real help. ;)
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I have traced the Dickinson tree back to Samuel Dickinson and Isabella Hartley, but am unable to go any further back. MY GGF was Matthew; GGGF ws John; GGGGF was Matthew who was Samuel & Isabella's Son. They seem to have had four children: Matthew; Margaret; Ann; & Mary.
Samuel died in CLS 18th January 1799 and is buried in Chester le Street St Marys and Cuthbert.
I am happy to share any information I have. I live in Durham City.
I understand you have traced the Dickinsons back to 1720 and I would greatly appreciate this information.
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Hello Arnison and welcome to rootschat.
There's obviously nothing I can contribute as it's not my family - just wanted to say welcome.
If you live in Durham City then you are ideally placed for the record office - perhaps you and Heather can join forces and maybe follow up on the Poor Law records we've been talking about
Christine
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I have a slot on 11th Oct at Durham Records Office and I will look up Samuel in the Workhouse reference.
If you have traced the family back to 1720 do you know who Samuel's parents were?
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Hi everyone that has helped me with Isabella Hartley's birth. I've had a breakthrough! I odrered the birth record for Samuel and Isabella's daughter Isabella from DROL. I realised she had been born after the death of Samuel in 1799 so wondered what her birth would reveal. All the other children's births just said son/daughter of Samuel Dickinson weaver by his wife Isabella but Isabella's said....Isabella Dickinson of Chester le Street born 3.8.1799 daughter of Samuel Dickinson weaver, native of Heworth, Deceased, by his wife Isabella Hartly native of Gateshead. Other records I ordered say Samuel's deceased children died of Smallpox so it could well be that Samuel died of smallpox also.
Thank's again C-side and Radcliffe for your help.
Heather.
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Your latest update is really appreciated. Thank You.
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Excellent news, Heather.
The detailed record you have is all down to a Bishop of Durham called Shute Barrington who was an amateur genealogist. His instruction to his vicars was to inlcude this extra detail (often mother's maiden name and parentage as well!). This continued until the standardisation of records in 1813. A short period but oh so useful.
His statue sits in Durham Cathedral - I was there a week or so ago and said a quiet 'thank you' on behalf of us all :D
Christine
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Hi, Did you unearth anything at the records office today? :D
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I went to Gateshead Library last week, but it is being refurbished and most of the records are being held in storage; although if you know what you want they can get it with 24 hours notice.
I went to Durham County Hall yesterday, but merely confirmed what you have already told me. County Hall have the document about the workhouse, but someone was using a laptop transcribe the whole book and I will have to go back when the document is available. I intend to go to Newcastle Central Library where there will be documents relating to Heworth.
I found a site listing burials in CLS, Pelton, Sacriston & Lumley which may prove useful to anyone who dosen't know about it.
http://www.durham.gov.uk/pages/Service.aspx?ServiceId=6718
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Hi just found your chat about Isabella Dickinson. I have an Isabella Dickinson marrying my 5x grt grandfather he had lost his previous wife although at what date I haven't found as yet. Isabella is in the 1841 census living in Chester Burns, Chester le Street. She is 80yrs old and a widow by this time she is living with Isabella and John Minto who are her step Grandchildren. John and the younger Isabella are cousins. I believe that Isabella died in June quarter of 1847 death registered in Chester le Street. I hope this helps although you probably have found this info by now.
Melanie
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Hi Melanie,
It looks like neither Arnison nor Hurley have been on rootschat since 2012 but if they still have the same email addresses then they should receive notification that you have posted to this thread.
Christine