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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: polidor on Friday 24 September 10 13:28 BST (UK)
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My 3rd Gt Granfather was John Copperwheat b 1778 in Bedfordshire.
I have his will wherein he makes a point of saying that his daughter "Mary Ann Copperwheat [alias Copperwhite] the latter being a mistake in the Baptismal Register."
Past contacts and info have shown that his name on army papers has been written incorrectly as CopperWHITE instead of CopperWHEAT.
If he knew his real name was C---WHEAT why would he have signed out as C-----WHITE
Could he perhaps have been advised to sign out with the same name as [incorrectly] recorded when he first joined the army. ? ???
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Could he have been illiterate and the 'signature' was actually written by his commanding officer in his presence and with his permission?
I realise this would normally be indicated by 'X his mark' or similar, but it's a thought.
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Could he have been illiterate and the 'signature' was actually written by his commanding officer in his presence and with his permission?
I realise this would normally be indicated by 'X his mark' or similar, but it's a thought.
Yes, it's one answer --underneath the word Sergeant is followed by some initials --not sure what they indicate either!
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Though his name was spelt "copperwheat" it may have been pronounced "Copperwhite". If a name is pronounced in a way which tempts people to spell it in a different way people eventually give in an accept the preferred spelling. It just gets tiring to correct people all the time over an old spelling. Perhaps that is the explanation.
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seth2--thanks for another explanation--
The daughter named in his will obviously had her name recorded wrongly if the birth recorder was looking at her father's army name--her brother. [another John] born in Carlow Ireland also during the army career has his name recorded as CopperWHITE- as well, i have a copy of his birth cert.
The different spelling of his name has made searching for his whereabouts difficult!!! poli
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Hi - Doesn't his will have a signature you can use for comparison purposes? I have seen many wills (American) and they are all signed.
Also, I can't imagine an illiterate individual becoming a sergeant in the army, but I suppose it did happen at times in the distant past.
The letters I can see after "Sergeant" appear to be "HLE"; is there more? It could refer to the division he was in, although I can't come up with a good possibility. What was/were his regiments(s)?
Nick
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This sounds very similar to my Grandad but he was a century later ;)
He enlisted in 1900 to engage in the South Africa War (Boer) and his surname is recorded as Cruddas throughout his army career. His children (my dad and his sister) were also registered with this wrong surname. His will is in his correct name but shows the "also known as" name.
My interpretation is that things were done in a hurry so there wasn't much time to check for mistakes, even if you could read and write, so whatever details were recorded weren't changed. The soldiers then had pay books which contained a page to write a "short will" which would be in the "army" name. Then comes the predicament as to what his legal name would be regarded as.
Colin
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Hi - Doesn't his will have a signature you can use for comparison purposes? I have seen many wills (American) and they are all signed.
Also, I can't imagine an illiterate individual becoming a sergeant in the army, but I suppose it did happen at times in the distant past.
The letters I can see after "Sergeant" appear to be "HLE"; is there more? It could refer to the division he was in, although I can't come up with a good possibility. What was/were his regiments(s)?
Nick
Never thoughtv to compare signiture with his will ::)
According to his discharge papers he was with th 11th Regiment of Light Dragoons
Here is a signature on his will--quite different and no, the 3 initials after the word 'sergeant' are at the very edge of the page . poli
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Is the Will not a copy (produced by a clerk) rather than the actual document that he would have signed?
The initial after his name probably refer to a military regiment. etc.
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Is the Will not a copy (produced by a clerk) rather than the actual document that he would have signed?
The initial after his name probably refer to a military regiment. etc.
Am adding another 'scan' showing the words " Horse Guards" in bottom left hand corner --perhaps the initials after his signature refer to that??
I might just post in the Forces section and ask if it was normal for an officer to sign on behalf of another soldier--what do you think?
It's just something that's been bugging me as i know from his will and other info i have that the John C in both the will and army papers are one and the same man but being of a 'slightly' pedantic nature [ ;) i do like to tidy my ancestors up !! poli
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Given the known 11 Light Dragoons, I would read the characters after "sergeant" as 11 LD, with the D cropped when the image was taken.
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I've just re-read the whole thread. The first place I'd look for a signature is the parish records for a marriage, assuming you know where it is. That should give you a signature or a mark.
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I've just re-read the whole thread. The first place I'd look for a signature is the parish records for a marriage, assuming you know where it is. That should give you a signature or a mark.
My brain always 'clicks in' after someone else suggest it ::)
This is a copy of the marriage i received from Norfolk just a week ago and it DOES seem he signed only with an 'X' so it would appear that neither of the signatures were written by him but then--perhaps he learnt to write later on ???
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It seems he may have learnt to write while in the army and perhaps was taught to spell his name by someone who didn't know the correct spelling. After leaving the army he could have learnt how to spell it properly. This would explain the signature on the discharge papers and the baptismal entry for his daughter - Copperwhite was his mistake.
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Thank you to all who responded to this post of mine regarding John's signature.
I guess there are several possible answers really and i'll just have to accept that it is one of those 'if-what-why-could it be' endings.
I love all my Copperwheats really , truly i do, but some of them like this john, my 3rd Gt Grandfather, do cause me a few headaches. ::) poli
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Another possible suggestion, even if he was literate, is bureaucracy. If he was owed money on discharge then if the paperwork said his surname was Copperwhite, officialdom being what it is, they couldn't possibly pay someone named Copperwheat.
Mind you, if he owed them money I'm sure they could make the necessary correction.