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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: Trevor1955 on Wednesday 22 September 10 23:48 BST (UK)
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Hi All, I am researching my Grt-grandparents Charles Harding and Martha McBride, I think that that they married about 1881 in Belfast. I know that they had 2 Daughters Jane (d. 12.10.1958) (m Samuel Lyttle d.5.9.1943) and Emma (my Grandmother )(b. 13.5.1896). (m. 1917 Colin Mckeag Rice). Can not find any trace of Charles on 1901 or1911 census.
Any help in finding them would be great.
Trevor
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Looks like Charles Harding could have died before 1901. Martha Hanna and children Emma, Jane and Alfred Harding listed here-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Victoria/Island_Street/1218375
Added- Martha Harding married 1899 Belfast?
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According to civil registration index Charles Harding m.Apr./June 1881 Belfast registration district.
Children (all reg. Belfast district):
Jane Harding birth Jan./Mar.1886
Alfred Charles Harding birth July/Sept.1888
Emma Harding birth July/Sept.1894 (date fits with 1901 census)
Here's James and Martha Hanna and family in 1911 census (her children also listed as Hanna rather than Harding)-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Victoria__part_of_/Medway/225884
Says James and Martha married 30 years, had 10 children with 7 still alive ??? Wonder if James filled out form meaning he first married 30 years ago and they'd 10 children between them?
See that Colin Rice was a neighbour in 1911-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Victoria__part_of_/Medway/225872
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Thanks for the quick reply.
Where would I look for Charles's Death?
I do have a link to Hanna, somewhere in my search, will look back through my paper work and find it.
If James was married before, who are the half bro/sis to Jane and Emma?
I have a note in mothers diary of:-
Alfred aged 71yrs in 1958, birthday 4th July, aged 76yrs in 1964.
Must be the same one.
Thanks again.
Trevor
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That would be correct if Martha married in 1881 she had been married 30 years, hadn't she? Just not to the same man. The entry on the form has been scored through on James' entry.
Edited to add: It looks like Martha has counted the children of both marriages as one family.
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Looks like Eliza (called Lizzie on census 1911) and Martha are half siblings.
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Thanks Aghadowey and Fifer1947,
But I have a problem with :-
Emma Harding birth July/Sept.1894 (date fits with 1901 census)
My sister sent me this info found in mothers things:-
A certified copy of entry of birth of EMMA Harding, entry no. 94, date & place of birth was Thirtieth May 1896 at Maternity Hospital, Father Charles Harding, Mother Martha Harding formerly McBride, father was a Labourer, quallifaction of informant was M.H.Ormerod at Maternity Hospital, this was dated 10th June 1896 & signed by registrar John Johnson, birth registered in the district of Belfast no. 2. This certificate is in a very delicate state.
We assume that the hospital was in Belfast.
The Birth dates don't match?
any idea's.
Kind Regards
Trevor
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Sorry for the colour.
it said:-Emma Harding birth July/Sept.1894 (date fits with 1901 census)
Trying to hard.
Trevor
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I'm getting the 1894 birth (father Charles) too on another site.
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I'll go and see this copy of birth for Emma myself, to make sure that my sister read it right. As it is in a bad state.
Trevor
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I'm getting a Martha Harding marriage (father Henry) to a James Hanna in 1899.
So Charles must have died before 1899. Wonder why she married using her late husband's name? ???
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James Hanna's father was also called James.
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How come her father is Charles on birth,
But Henry on second marriage to James Hanna?
Trevor
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There are two marriages for James Hanna to an Eliza in 1890. Which may explain the name of Martha and James' first child. There is a death for Eliza Hanna in 1894 which coincides with the birth of Thomas Hanna perhaps a death in childbirth?
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How come her father is Charles on birth,
But Henry on second marriage to James Hanna?
Trevor
We are getting our Martha's confused ;D Daughter Martha b 1894 has father Charles, Martha who married James Hanna - her father was Henry.
Correction that should have been
Emma born 1894 father Charles
Martha (McBride) Harding father Henry per 1899 marriage to James Hanna
Do you have Martha McBride's birth certificate?
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Hi,
6 Jun 1881 Charles Harding married Martha McBride in St. Annes Church of Ireland, Shankill, Belfast.
30 Oct 1899 James Hanna married Martha Harding (McBride) in Willowfield C of I, Knockbreda, Belfast.
Regards
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Births registered to Charles and Martha Harding
John Charles 1883
Jane 1886
Emma 1894
No sign of Alfred but this index is not complete.
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Thanks kingskerswell, fifer1947, aghadowey.
Still trying to find death of CHARLES HARDING between 1893 and 1899.?
He is registered as a Soldier on his daughter Jane's birth cert in 1886. So which regiment was he in and did he die abroad?
What wars were there between 1893 and 1899?
As I know that he was a Labourer on his daughter's Emma b. 1894 to Martha, and that Martha re-married to James Hanna in 1899.
Regards
Trevor
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I have some info on the Harding family, they are connected to the Lyttles my wifes' family
I am new to this forum, is it possible to send me a PM ?
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New members usually need 3 posts to use PM system.
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These are some of the details I have, I have not checked against the forum correspondence, so apologies for any duplication
Charles and Martha married 6 Jun 1881
Charles died about 1898
They had 6 children
Martha re-married to James Hanna in 1899 and had 4 children
More to follow
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Martha died 27 Jul 1921
The Harding children were Emma, Jane, Alfred Charles, & Thomas
Apologies my previous e mail said 6 children
More to follow
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Jane Harding was born at the "Lying in Hospital", Clifton Street, Belfast
Father Charles was described as a soldier from Lancashire
Jane married Samuel Lyttle
Jane was my wifes' Grandmother
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I have been to the GRO in Belfast today, I can find no record of the death of Charles, the member of staff on duty also assisted but could find nothing
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Thank you for looking for Charles death,
as he must have been alive in 1896 when youngest daughter Emma was born.
he was then a labourer.
And wife Martha re-married in 1899 to James Hanna.
So what happened to Charles,
Was he called up to fight in a war?
or did he desert his family?
There is a James Hanna and a Thomas Hanna on The Congregation of Megain Memorial, Belfast.
Prisoner of War, Roll of Honour 1914 - 1919.
Privates in R.I.R.
James wounded 3 times,
Thomas wounded, lost eye.
living at 6 Medway st, Belfast
also at same address was Alfred Harding.
Trevor
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Charles Harding had 6 children
John Charles 1883-1884, Jane 1886-1958, Alfred Charles 1888-1966, Emma 1894-1967, Martha 1897-1900
Jane married Samuel Lyttle, and had 3 children Alfred Charles, Samuel and Henry McBride, all deceased, between them they had 6 children, 5 still living
Alfred Charles married Abigail Duff and had 4 children ?, Alfred 1924-1991, Alexander 1924-, James (stillborn) and Kathleen ?, all believed dead.
Alfred 1924-1991 had 2 children, James Jack 1943-2009 and * , James Jack had 4 children
Alexander 1924- had 3 children ?
Emma married Colin McKeag Rice and had 3 or 4 children *.
Emma then married Thomas Mathieson and had one child, *, I know that there is a daughter * who was looking for info on her Grandfather, Thomas
When Charles Harding died Martha married James Hanna in 1899, he was a widower and seems to have had 2 sons already James 1892- and Thomas 1894-
James and Martha had 5 children, Elizabeth 1900-, Martha 1902-, Henrietta 1905-, John Samuel 1909-, and Jean Elizabeth 1913-.
This information I have is not all verified and has come from GRONI indexes, family records and verbal from the late James Jack.
My interest is in the Lyttle family but as you know you pick up bits and pieces
I would appreciate if you could point out any mistakes or provide any additional info
*Moderator's Note: details of people who might still be alive removed in accordance with Rootschat policy
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hi trevor i believe we both share the same great great grandparents charles and martha their son alfred is my great grandfather. have just began researching the family tree and have came across this site. for some reason i believe that alfred died in the boer war although i cannot find a date of birth for him. anything i can help you with dont hesitate to contact me. my personal email adress is (*).
kind regards phil.
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Hi Trevor1955
Hope you have found the info you needed.
Sylvia
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hi,just found your post. i am looking for info of Alfred Charles Harding,born 1888 Belfast, 1911 census puts him at Dover castle ,Irish rifles. He married 1912 to Florance Mary Sherwood Brice , in Dover, he went to war in France,returned 1918. Then in 1919 it seemed he returned to Belfast and married again. H
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hi,just found your post. i am looking for info of Alfred Charles Harding,born 1888 Belfast, 1911 census puts him at Dover castle ,Irish rifles. He married 1912 to Florance Mary Sherwood Brice , in Dover, he went to war in France,returned 1918. Then in 1919 it seemed he returned to Belfast and married again. H
what sort of information are you looking for?
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Still trying to find death of CHARLES HARDING between 1896 and 1899.?
He is registered as a Soldier on his daughter Jane's birth cert in 1886. So which regiment was he in and did he die abroad?
What wars were there between 1893 and 1899?
As I know that he was a Labourer on his daughter's Emma b. 1896 to Martha, and that Martha re-married to James Hanna in 1899.
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Hi Pottsharding,
When you have posted more than 3 posts, I can then PM you, with info I have on Alfred.
regards Trevor1955
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If Alfred Charles Harding married in 1912 (Dover, England) to Florence Brice and Abigail Halliday Duff in 1919 (Belfast, Ireland) were he and Florence divorced?
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Victoria/Island_Street/1218375/ ??
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Still trying to find death of CHARLES HARDING between 1896 and 1899.?
He is registered as a Soldier on his daughter Jane's birth cert in 1886. So which regiment was he in and did he die abroad?
What wars were there between 1893 and 1899?
As I know that he was a Labourer on his daughter's Emma b. 1896 to Martha, and that Martha re-married to James Hanna in 1899.
Searched civil registration index on Family Search (as it will bring up some variations on name) for Charles or Alfred Harding without finding anything within those dates in Ireland. The reason I searched under the name Alfred was that son Alfred Charles's 1919 marriage seems to list father as Alfred Charles.
The most obvious war in that period is the 2nd Boer War but he could have died in England, Scotland, etc.
http://www.angloboerwar.com/boer-war
http://www.boer-war.com/
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Hi aghadowey,
Thanks for info, I think he had a devorce, as his army records state that no more money to be paid to Florence, (due to children born to her while he was a prisoner of war).
It's his father Charles that is registered as a Soldier from Lancashire on his daughter Jane's birth cert in 1886 and given his birth about 1860 and marrige to Martha 1881, so he must have inlisted between 1874 and 1886, where inlisted unknown.
Was he in the army when he met Martha in Belfast?
Also as a labour on daughter Emma's 1896 birth cert? but died or deserted family by 1899.
If Labour 1896, would he have to re-inlist to have died in army 1899. if so would re-inlistment be at Belfast?
regards
Trevor
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Might be absolutely nothing, but a Belfast newspaper on Monday 12 December 1898 carries the briefest mention of a Charles Harding being charged with having assaulted his wife on 29 November and being sent to jail for 3 months, there is no further detail. Also there is a Charles Harding death in Belfast workhouse in 1905, reported as 45 year old bachelor, but no other detail.
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Never assume a divorce has taken place unless you have proof! Bigamy was more common than divorce for the average person at that time and moving back to Ireland would certainly have helped avoid being caught! I looked up the marriage certificate on GRONI just to confirm my suspicions (see below).
Alfred Charles Harding m.1 (Jan./Mar.1912 Dover, Eng.) Florence Mary Sherwood Brice according to registration index which also shows 4 children born (father Harding, mother Brice)-
1. Albert C.J. Harding (July/Sept.1912 Dover-Jan./Mar.1919 Dover)
2. Doris M.F. Harding (Jan./Mar.1914 Dover-Apr./June 1927 Dover)
3. Irene Anne M. Harding (2 Jan.1920 Dover-Dec.2003 Kent) m.(Jan./Mar.1945 Dover) Frank Firth
4. daughter (Apr./June 1921 Dover)
Alfred Charles Harding m.2 (15 Dec.1919 Belfast) Abigail Halliday (Lyttle) Duff
1. Henry Stewart Harding (1921-1921)
2. Alfred Harding (d.1991)
others
Marriage: 15 Dec.1919 Dundela Presbyterian Church (by Jas Hunter), parish of Holywood, Co. Down, Alfred Chas. Harding, full age, bach., coal miner, 6 Medway St., father- Alfred Chas. Harding (died), to Abigail Duff, full age, widow, 51 Central St., father- Alex. Lyttle (joiner). Witnesses: Colin McKaig Rice, Emma Rice.
Roselawn Cemetery (U 423):
Abigail Harding, 76, 51 Central St., died 23 Feb.1966, buried 24 Feb.1966
Alfred Harding, 77, 51 Central St., died 28 Feb.1966, buried 1 Mar.1966
Wilhelmina Mercer, 58, 86b Newtownards Rd., died 25 Oct.1979, buried 29 Oct.1979
Alfred Harding, 67, 8 Tower Court, died 10 Dec.1991, buried 12 Dec.1991
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=9163.3317
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Abigail (parents Alexander Lyttle & Abigail Thompson)
Birth? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FB8J-738
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Victoria/Central_Street/1217238
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Victoria__part_of_/Central_Street/224352
married (26 Feb.1914 Belfast) William Duff
William Duff, age 21, KIA 1915, address given as 51 Central St. (includes photo) https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1043502069047827&id=240223979375644
also- https://sites.google.com/site/ourheroesinmemoriam/ww1-irish-soldiers-database
The Lyttles buried Dundonald Cemetery (F4 329).
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Thank you, aghadowey and gaffy,
gaffy, I have seen those 2.
1st are there any jail records in Belfast covering his time in jail, might have address mentioned.
2nd one bachelor, these was another Charles Harding in Belfast at that time.
aghadowey, I also thought that he didn’t divorce Florence,but on army papers stated that no more money was to be paid to her, except for they’re 2 children. (not Named in papers),
So assume they were Albert and Doris, but as both died young, did not follow any further.
Second 2 children were born after he left and went back to Belfast.
Second marriage is correct as Colin McKaig Rice, Emma Rice. were my grandmother (AC’s sister) and her first husband. and address fits.
But it has father- Alfred Chas. Harding (died) by 1919, this is the first mention that Charles had a first name of Alfred.
I am in contact with the Lyttle side of the family.
It is still Charles Harding that I need to find, death for.
Thanks agan. Trevor1955
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Hi Pottsharding, Hi Trevor1955 i am new to all this. The info coming through is very interesting. Charles Harding was the father alfred charles Harding the son.
When you have posted more than 3 posts, I can then PM you, with info I have on Alfred.
regards Trevor1955
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Hi Trevor1955, i have the death of charles harding down as 1937. Born 1859
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Hi pottsharding,
Where is Charles Harding buried, birth age about right, where born?
Any other info on death cert, ie. address, etc?
regards
Trevor1955
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Hi trevor 1955 Sorry do not know where charles harding is buried
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Hi Pottsharding,
Where did you find the death date of 1937 for Charles Harding?
regards
Trevor 1955