RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: hwlambert on Sunday 19 September 10 04:22 BST (UK)
-
Can anyone tell me what would have happened to young children after their parents died. I am looking for 2 young children of Daniel and Susannah (O'Shaunghassey) Bull, George Marcus b.1876 and Edwin Massy b.1878 both in Victoria. Their mother died in 1880 in Victoria and their father died in 1885 in Sydney. I would like to know where to look to find out where the children went after the death of their mother and if they went with their father, what happened to them after their father's death.
Cheers Heather
-
There is this death reg in NSW with a George Marcus BULL noted as the father
5738/1939
BULL George Maurice
Father George Marcus Mother Eliza Jane
District Newtown
and this marriage
7931/1901
BULL George M
MUSGRAVE Eliza J
District Woonona
and their are four children to this couple to 1909.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search?event=births
and George Marcus's death
20750/1932
BULL George M
Father Daniel Mother Susan
District Kogarah
Australian Electoral Roll 1930 NSW
BULL Eliza Jane 385 Forst Road, Kingsgrove HD
BULL George Marcus 385 Forest Road, Kingsgrove Pharmacist
Cheers
Cando
-
There is a Funeral Notice for George Maurice BULL d 1939. He is buried at Baptist Cemetery, Woronora.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/17546905?searchTerm=george+bull
There is a death notice on p16 of the same paper. His mother Eliza Jane is still alive but George Marcus Bull is deceased. The notice lists his brothers and sisters. He was only 26. :(
Notice for George Marcus BULL
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16942054?searchTerm=george+marcus+bull
Judith
-
Death notice for Susanna Massy BULL
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5980305?searchTerm=daniel+bull
Note that there is a request for Sydney and NZ papers to copy....perhaps there was family in Sydney who helped care for George Marcus and Edwin Massy.
Insolvency notice for a Daniel BULL in 1880
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5959576?searchTerm=daniel+bull
Cando
-
George Marcus b.1876 and Edwin Massy b.1878 both in Victoria.
There doesn't appear to be a birth reg in Victoria for an Edwin Massy BULL in 1878. May I ask where you sourced this info? I see that Daniel was born in Tasmania and he and Susanna b. Limerick were married in Vic in 1874. Of course the birth may not have been registered.
Cando
-
Thanks everyone for your swift replies.
Edwin Massy is listed on the death certificate of Susannah Massy Bull in 1880 as one of 2 children.
Daniel's marriage to Susannah was his second and he had 3 children to his first wife Janet who died in 1866 in Melbourne. I have found 2 of these children Beatrice and Charles William but not a third.
Thanks, Heather
-
You may already have these notices but just in case....and Daniel's death notice also mentions two young sons. Edwin's birth wasn't registered.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13607015?searchTerm=daniel+bull
and funeral notice
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13604313?searchTerm=daniel+bull
There are also death notices for Daniel's first wife.
Cheers
Cando
-
I guess you have assumed that this unnamed female is Beatrice
BULL Name Not Recorded Female
Father/ Daniel Mother Janet Amelia CARPENTER
10 Sep 1862
Registered at Launceston Reg#347/1862
1864 birth of Charles in Vic and then Janet Amelia's death. I wonder if Janet Amelia died in 1866 when the third child may have been born? Have you Janet Amelia's death certificate?
Cheers
Cando
-
thanks Cando,
I now have the newspaper records. I also think that Janet may have died in childbirth, but unfortunately I have not yet got her death cert.
Cheers, Heather
-
Hello Heather,
Daniel Snr was my 3rd Great Grand Uncle. In his first marriage to Janet Amelia Carpenter, they had three children - Beatrice, born 1862 in Launceston, but died before 1892, Daniel John Bull, born unknown & Charles William Bull born 1864 in Melbourne and died 1891 in Broken Hill.
From his second marriage to Susanna O'Shaughnessy, on 7 Feb 1874 in Collingwood, Vic, he had the following children:
George Marcus Bull b. Collingwood 1875, died Kogarah NSW in 1932
Edward Massy Bull b. Collingwood 1877
Susanna died in childbirth in 1880.
George Bull md. Eliza Musgrave (b. 1876 in Young NSW) and had six children:
Constance Massy Bull b. Marrickville in 1902 and d. 1961
Winifred Ellen Massy Bull b. Marrickville 1903
Phyllis Bull b. 1906 in Tamworth NSW, d. 25 Sep 1995, Marsfield NSW, md. Frederick James Blunsden
Susan Bull b Wollongong in 1908, d 1912, Newcastle NSW
Howell Kenneth Bull b. 1910, Casino NSW, d. 17 Sep 1988, md Jean Katharine Bolle
Marcus Gordon Bull b. 25 Jun 1914, Canterbury NSW, d. 31 Aug 1970
-
Hi Heather,
I have mistakenly left off a 7th child for George and Eliza - George Maurice, b. 1912, d. 1939
Regards,
-
Thanks so much for your information. Always nice to clear up some queries. If I can help you with anything on this branch of the family please let me know.
Heather
-
Hi,
I realise this thread is very old but just posting in case anyone is still receiving updates. As a descendant of Daniel Bull and and Susanna (O'Shaugnessy) Bull, I'm interested in any family history.
I do recall previous checking the death certificate of Daniel Bull and noticing that his dob on the death certificate did not match his birth certificate.
Richard Bull
Sydney
-
Welcome to Rootschat, Riccardo.
It isn’t unusual for dates to not match up on certificates.
Jamjar
-
Hi Ricardo and thanks for your message. I have some information I can share with you and would like to know what you have so I send only the stuff you need. Send me a personal message (PM) with an address and I will be in touch.
Regards Heather
-
Riccardo needs to make 2 more posts before he can send PMs.
Riccardo, do note that you cannot post an email addy here. Hence the need to use the PM system.
Jamjar
-
Thanks jamjar,
Okay Riccardo, tell us what details you need and we will see if we have the answers for you.
Heather
-
Hi,
Thanks for responding so quickly. Sorry I haven't replied as the forum doesn't seem to send me an email when there is a reply. I just happened to wonder back in here :)
I will try and dig up the death certificate I had for Daniel. As I recall he died from Typhoid in Sydney and is buried at Rookwood Cemetery. I guess it is possible he fell ill suddenly and there was an issue with recording his birth date?
I am really after any anecdotal family history that may be around. For example, I assume that George Marcus was raised by one of Susanna's sisters. I see that the name 'Massy' appears in two of the children's names. Is this acknowledgment of the aunt?
-
Riccardo, go to your profile by clicking on your name, then modify profile, email notifications and tick relevant boxes.
Jamjar
-
Daniel Bull married Susanna Jane Massy O’Shaunassay (28) in Victoria on 7 February 1874
Witnesses William Bull and Edward Bull. Daniel was a widow with 3 living children. He was 32, a commercial traveller and was living at 34 Bartley St, Carlton. Susanna was born in Limerick Ireland to Mark O’Shaunassey and Jane Massy, so the children were given their mother's maiden name.
This was in the Sydney Morning Herald Saturday 21 March 1874
BULL-O'Shaughnessy - February 7, at Melbourne, by the Rev. Mr. Bird. Daniel G. Bull, Esq., of Melbourne, to Susie J. Massey, second daughter of the late Mark Terry O'Shaughnessy esq of Limerick City, Ireland.
Heather
-
Hi Jamjar,
As far as I can tell all the correct boxes have been ticked.
:)
-
I can see from the death notice in the newspaper that Daniel Bull d. 1885 is definitely my Daniel as Susanna O'Shaugnessy is mentioned (as are two sons). So that is a little closure. I will try to get out to Rookwood to see if there is a headstone on his grave.
It makes sense now that there was no headstone on Susanna O'Shaunessy's grave as Daniel had no money, being declared insolvent shortly after her death. Sounds like pretty tough times.
I am also curious as to what happened with the other children, both Edward, and the children with Janet Carpenter.
Richard
-
Susanna Bull was buried 25 March 1880 at St Kilda Cemetery; Church of England, Compartment D, Grave 497 but I do not know if there is a headstone. This info was online, just look up St Kilda Cemetery records. Daniel should be at Rookwood but again I don't know if there is a headstone.
Cheers Heather
-
Hi Heather,
I did visit the grave site several years ago. That's how I know there isn't a headstone.
Cheers,
Richard
-
Thanks Riccardo, who are you related through?
Daniel Bull married Janet Amelia Carpenter (17) in Launceston Tasmania on 01 Feb 1862 parents William Carpenter 1808 & Sarah Weaver 1817. They had 3 children.
1. Female born; 10 Sep 1862 Launceston, Tasmania, Australia; parents given name not recorded; parents Daniel Bull & Janet Amelia Carpenter (probably stillborn or died young, can’t find a death notice) she is not Beatrice Amelia Bull born 13 Mar 1860 Launceston; dau of William Bull & Elizabeth Ann Jordan who died of croup in 1861 aged 1. Her father is listed as a publican.
2. Charles William W.W. Bull; Born; 1864, Melbourne, Victoria; father Daniel Bull mother Janet Carpenter.
3. Daniel John Bull born 1866 in Melbourne, Victoria, his mother died shortly after his birth; parents Daniel Bull & Janet Amelia Carpenter.
I have not found out what happened to the surviving children after Daniel died but will start looking again.
I am not sure what information you have so perhaps you could ask questions to make sure we don't duplicate info. I do have some more information so will put it together in the next few days.
-
son Charles William Bull
1864 Born; 1864, Melbourne, Victoria; Charles William Bull; father Daniel Bull mother Janet Carpenter
1885 Married; 23 Dec 1885 at Newtown, NSW; to Ada Mary Jane Lomas 1869–1925
1887 Children; Briscoe Daniel Bull 1887–; Lillian Maude Bull1888–;
1890 Court case; An order was made at the Newtown Police Court this morning for 15s a week against Chas. Bull for the support of his wife, Ada Bull.
1890 Central Police Court; At the Central Police Court yesterday morning Ada Bull summoned Charles Bull for maintenance.
1891 Assault: Charles Bull, 27, a canvasser, was charged with unlawfully assaulting Ada Bull, and was sentenced to one month's hard labour.
1891 Died; At Broken Hill, Charles William Bull, late of Marrickville, of pleurisy, aged 27 years.
Ada and the children struck hard times after Charles abandoned them and on 28 Sep 1893 Briscoe Daniel Bull (6) and Lillian Maude Bull (5) were admitted to the Randwick Asylum for Destitute Children in NSW by their mother who was unable to care for them. Their mother Ada remarried around 1894 to Charles Morgan and the children were discharged back to her on 19 July 1894.
-
Thanks Heather for the info on Charles William Bull.
I checked Janet (Carpenter) Bull's death certificate and it lists three children:
Isabella (3 y.o.)
Charles (1 y.o.), and
Daniel (2 months old).
Do you know what happened to Isabella and Daniel?
-
Heather, my connection is:
Daniel Bull & Susanna O'Shaughnessy
George Marcus Bull & Eliza Musgrave
Marcus Gordon Bull (my grandfather)
-
son Daniel was alive in 1885 and he was awarded his father's admin papers after his death but that is all I have.
Isabella is probably the unnamed daughter born in 1862. I did not have her name. I will have to research further.
I thought that the second son of Susanna was Edwin Massy Bull but I could be wrong as I have not found any more information on him.
I am related through Daniel snrs brother John Bull
Cheers
-
I will try to get out to Rookwood to see if there is a headstone on his grave.
I have checked the Rookwood Headstone Inscription disc and there in nothing for Daniel.
Jamjar
-
thanks Jamjar, no money in the family so probably an unmarked grave.
Heather
-
Hi Heather,
Getting back to your original post.....
I know that after Susanna passed, George Marcus was raised by his Aunt Ellen Massey O'Shaughnessy in Sydney. Ellen was dearly loved by George Marcus, and as a result, the name Massey is used in two of his daughters names.
I am still trying to discover what happened to Edward/Edwin.
Susanna and Ellen's Parents were Mark Terry O'Shaughnessy and Jane Massey of Limerick, Ireland. I found this interesting article about Susanna and Ellen's brothers, Mark and George Hamilton which you may be interested in.
http://limerickslife.com/oshaughnessy-brothers-journey-to-australia-1863/
I have asked Sharon Slater (author of the article) if she can provide any more information about the family.
Cheers
-
Thanks for that Riccardo, I did not know that.
I have just had Marilyn Wood send her timeline for Charles Bull and family and she thinks that Edward/Edwin was actually brought up by his grandparents Charles and Jane in Tasmania. I have no proof of this but it is a good starting point for research. Will check out the story.
Heather
-
Riccardo, I found this report in NSW Police Gazette, 4 Nov 1891, page 368.
Edwin Bull missing from his home, 33 Irving Street, since the 12th ultimo - Edwin Bull, 14 years of age, black hair, dark eyes, freckled face, dressed in dark coat and gray trousers.
Could this be our Edwin Massy Bull? Does the address ring any bells for you?
Cheers, Heather
-
Great sleuthing Heather. How did you find that?
I found a record of Ellen M. O'Shaughnessy and her brother Frederick J. living at 33 Irving St in 1888. Frederick J. also has his profession listed as 'carriage builder', which was also his father's profession. So definitely looks like the correct Edwin.
OK so how do I find out if he was found? Do you know if there are case files available? Does 'missing since the 12th' mean 12th of October? If it does, and the gazette is dated 4th November, that seems a long time to be missing :(
I am saddened as this may be the reason I cannot find a grave for Edwin (if he was never found).
Richard
-
yes October 1891. I found the info on Ancestry.
Just a note: Edwin's half brother Charles William Bull died around October 1891 in Broken Hill and Edwin went missing in October 1891, coincidence or is it possible Edwin went to Broken Hill? There was a mining engineer Edwin Bull in Broken Hill but he was there in 1890 so that is not the one we want.
Have been checking newspaper articles but nothing more on Edwin so far. At 14 he would have been able to work so possibly did not come before the courts if he was found.
Thanks for the info on the O'Shaughnessy's, I didn't have that.
Cheers Heather
-
Could Edwin have gone to WA? There is an Edwin M Bull mentioned 4th column ‘Traffic Offences’:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article32260674
There is a John O’Shannessy there, also.
Added: Bull Edwin M Male Perth 1622 1929
Possibly not him, as there is a death notice that has father as Cr C H Bull as father, under heading ‘Personal Patter’.
Not him, he was Edwin Major Bull.
Jamjar
-
Thanks for your reply Jamjar. Edwin could be anywhere in Australia or even New Zealand where he had an uncle. I don't know if he was ever located after leaving home but there are very few records for an Edwin Bull on Ancestry.
Cheers, Heather
-
Could there be census data that shows who was living at 33 Irving St before and after Edwin went missing? That may show if he returned.
-
This information was on Public Record Office of Victoria website. Censuses conducted between 1854 – 1901
Censuses were conducted by the Colony or State of Victoria in 1854, 1857, 1861, 1871, 1881, 1891 and 1901. None are known to exist within the PROV Collection. According to the State Library of Victoria guide to early census records, surviving returns were pulped in 1892.
-
I see that there are records for Ultimo police station at the NSW State Library. However, it seems to only be accessible from the library. I will try and get in there to do some research.
-
Not sure if you have seen this record for Charles Bull from the Old Bailey proceedings.
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=182109120021
-
Thanks Riccardo,
I have quite a bit of information on Charles Bull if you need it.
Cheers, Heather