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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Vasquez109 on Saturday 18 September 10 00:06 BST (UK)

Title: What year is this please?
Post by: Vasquez109 on Saturday 18 September 10 00:06 BST (UK)
Does anyone have the eyesight to read what the year is here? Also, does it say born or is it some shorthand for buried?

David.
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 18 September 10 00:09 BST (UK)
George  the son of George Thomas born 19th February 1718
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: Hollander on Saturday 18 September 10 00:09 BST (UK)
Hi Vasquez.

Think it reads 'born thee (sic) 19th of February 1718.
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: Vasquez109 on Saturday 18 September 10 00:11 BST (UK)
Firstly...I may sound stupid, but what is (sic) and what is that word at the end?

I thought, although the year at the top of the page says 1716, the year was 1718/4...
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: CaroleW on Saturday 18 September 10 00:15 BST (UK)
.
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: Greensleeves on Saturday 18 September 10 00:21 BST (UK)
sic indicates that something is written possibly incorrectly, but that you have copied it as written.  So if I wrote Sepdtember in a document you might copy it and write (sic) after it to show that it was my mistake and not yours!  Hope that makes sense - it's getting late.... or early...! ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: slam on Saturday 18 September 10 00:48 BST (UK)
Could it be '1718/19'?  You know how until 1752  they used to start the official new year on March 25, so that if something happened in the early months of 1719 it would still be happening in 1718, legally?  It always does my head in.  I have to admit though the '9' of '19th' has a longer tail than anything visible on this little subscript figure.

I thought the word at the end looked like 'feisted'. Then I thought perhaps it was 'feiste d..' and I thought perhaps it meant 'feast day'. But then I wondered if it meant 'fast day', which sometimes happened in times of trouble - the authorities proclaimed an official day of fasting and prayer?  Perhaps they were recording that this particular 19th February was a Fast Day.
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: BridgetM on Saturday 18 September 10 15:33 BST (UK)
I also saw it as 1718/19.
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: Geoff-E on Saturday 18 September 10 16:54 BST (UK)
I also saw it as 1718/19.

So did I.
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: Redroger on Saturday 18 September 10 18:57 BST (UK)
Whilst I agree it may well be 1718/19 in the old form of date. I wonder? When BMDs are entered into parish records, they are simply shown with the date e.g. 31 December 1718 followed by 1st Jan 1718, and the year is changed in March. So why should there be a different format used on a gravestone?
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: viking-man on Saturday 18 September 10 23:01 BST (UK)
There's food for thought
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: Redroger on Sunday 19 September 10 18:58 BST (UK)
For some strange reason I had assumed this was engraved on a memorial stone. Now I read the posts it is no such thing, unless there has been a post deleted. Assuming this is a parish register, then I make the following comments:

1) At the end of 1715 (24.3.1716 by our reckoning) the keeper opf the record wrote the date of the next year, 1716; there  were  no births, marriages or deaths recorded in the parish during 1717 or 1718, or another book was used, then he prematurely as it happened and badly attempted to alter the 6 into a 9.
2) Is it possibnle to see what is written immediately above the date 1716 or 1719 please? This might confirm or otherwise. 
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: Redroger on Sunday 19 September 10 19:02 BST (UK)
Finbar, In this era there was no standardised spelling, so to spell the as thee was as correct as spelling it in the modern way. Spelling and language does continue to evolve, and many spellings and usages become obsolete. I remember at school spelling the word "wagon" with one g, and being clipped around the ear, and told it has 2 g's boy, you are not reading a wild west comic now!
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: Pastmagic on Sunday 19 September 10 19:15 BST (UK)
This is a negative image - may help to make it clearer...
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: Redroger on Sunday 19 September 10 19:55 BST (UK)
It does indeed. Looks as though with the modern calendar already adopted in other countries some people were backing things both ways regarding the dates.
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: pb3 on Sunday 19 September 10 21:30 BST (UK)
Here Lieth the Body of
Nicholas Andrew Who
Died March the 18th.(?) 1736/7
Aged 64. Also Ann his
Wife departed this
life Sepr 7th.(?) 1758. Aged74.
[There is an entry in the Registers for NICHOL ANDREW whose date of death is given there as March the 8th. The way in which the year of his death is recorded on this headstone appears to reflect confusion related to the replacement of the Justinian calendar by the Gregorian calendar.]

       This monumental inscription is taken from one of our local (north west Durham) churchyards and is transcribed - as nearly as I could - as shown on the headstone. The Gregorian calendar was in use quite early on in Europe but wasn't accepted in England until the latter part of the eighteenth century.

       It usually caused confusion at the time in both Church records and monumental inscriptions during January, February and March since these three months comprised the final quarter of the year under the old calendar and the first quarter under the Gregorian calendar. We still have a hang-over of the old calendar in the present day as shown in the financial (tax) year which ends at the end of March.

       If you Google 'Gregorian Calendar' there is some very detailed information on the internet as to how it came about and how to allocate the 'correct' year to these dates.
       
       In support of Finbar the Latin word 'sic' means 'thus' as in 'Sic transit gloria mundi' and it is standard practice to use it to indicate a possible error, or spelling variant, in the original record rather than an error made by the transcriber.

         PatB.
   
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: Vasquez109 on Sunday 19 September 10 21:43 BST (UK)
Very informative! One question though, is (sic) used immediately before the text in question?

David.
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: pb3 on Sunday 19 September 10 21:58 BST (UK)
David

         I've only ever seen it used after the problematic word just as Finbar used it. When I'm transcribing records I usually put it in square brackets - [sic] - since registers and headstones generally employ () or {} when they are using brackets.

          PatB.
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: pb3 on Sunday 19 September 10 22:06 BST (UK)
       And I've just made a liar of myself, since if you look at the headstone transcription from earlier I've used round brackets for the uncertain information. My excuse is that this was done during my early transcribing efforts. I have since adopted the square bracket as standard in these situations.

         PatB.
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: Vasquez109 on Sunday 19 September 10 22:24 BST (UK)
;D You're forgiven!
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: Pastmagic on Monday 20 September 10 00:19 BST (UK)
One word left to decipher "festid"  or what? Latin? or a place name? or what?

Which register is this taken from? Who is Thomas?
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: Pastmagic on Monday 20 September 10 00:19 BST (UK)
This one:
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: Vasquez109 on Monday 20 September 10 01:52 BST (UK)
The register is from a rural parish of Swansea.
Title: Re: What year is this please?
Post by: Redroger on Monday 20 September 10 17:50 BST (UK)
It looks to me like feast day, to use a modern spelling. A google showed 19th Feb to be the Feast Day of St. Barbatus.One for the cogniscenti I think!