RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: helenastark on Friday 17 September 10 22:35 BST (UK)
-
I am looking for my scottish ancestor Christian Robson born 1613 in Scotland. I beleive that he is a Robson of clan Gunn but I am not sure.
This is what I know anyway: (I am looking for more facts about his family in Scotland, I know most of his whereabouts after he left Scotland...)
Born 1613 (or maybe 1615) in Scotland.
Left Scotland to become a mercenary soldier in Germany during Thirty Year War.
He married a German woman, Catharina Bertel (1624-1694).
They moved to Sweden, he worked as a merchant before he became a foundry proprietor at Malingsbo bruk in Dalarna, Sweden.
Christian Robson changed his name to Robsahm when he moved to Sweden.
Christian and Catharina had 11 children.
He died in 1685 i , Malingsbo, Dalarna, Sweden.
Do you kow more about him? Where did he came from? Do you know anything about his parents / family?
I am interested in ANYTHING concerning Christian Robson or Robsons of clan Gunn.
Please, feel free to e-mail me at (*)
I am writing a book about this ancestor of mine.
If anyone at this forum need help to do research in Sweden, I will gladly help you!
Thank you in advance / Helena Stark in Sweden
PS/ The picture is a painting of Christian Robson painted in 1678 in Uppsala, Sweden. / DS
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
You are quite right, it is the Gunn Family or Clan Celtic rather than Gaelic or Pictish.
Their motto is Either Peace or War
The areas in which they settled were Caithness, Orkney, Kirkwall which I believe is Argyll, the Shetland Isles and specifically Braemore (Known as the Robson Gunns) Killearnan, Kildonan
They were in a feud lasting centuries from before the late 15th c. to recent times when the feud was settled by a formal treaty of friendship in 1978.
They also had a running battle with the Grahams I think.
There are Family History Societies who hold parish records who may be able to help if you cannot find info either on Scotlandspeople or the IGI
marcie
-
Forgot to say that Scotlandspeople is a pay per view.
will cost 6 credits in total for each item. Birth, Marriage, children (However many they had) and death
Will be doing some research myself on SP tomorrow, will see if I can find anything at all.
marcie
-
Thank you!! It was interesting facts, I will look into that.
It´s fascinating, because I have been doing research about this Christian Robson for more than a year and always got stuck on this vague clue about Clan Gunn (and even Robson Gunn). But I am not sure that it´s the right clan...
Last night, after posting here, I found another family tree online that I have never seen before. (htt://kristinsweedler.com) and I saw that Christian Robson had a father / grandfather named Jacob Robertson of Struan, born 1566 in Struan barony near Atholl, Scotland of clan Donnachaid. Physician in Stockholm, died in 1652, buried in Spånga church.
I have seen information before about a possible father of Christian Robson, named Jacob (Johansen) Rubsaem, born 1587.
That makes sence.
Jacob Robertson born 1566, his son (Christians father) Jacob Rubsaem (like a latin version of Robson) born in 1587 and finally Christian Robson born in 1613.
Is there anyone out there who knows more about this family? Or about this clan Donnachaid?
Thank you!
// Helena
-
Before 'attaching' him to any clan you need to establish his birhplace.
SP has only 1 baptism record that comes close to the name
30/09/1627 ROBISON CHRISTAN son of JAMES ROBISON at LINLITHGOW /WEST LOTHIAN
There are no records for the name Jacob Robson or variations of the surname (using rob*n)
-
Yes, of course. You are right. I am just so excited!!
I have three different facts about his birth:
Most likely he was born 1613 - but I don´t know where.
Second: he was born 1615 - it´s possible.
Third: some people say that he left Scotland for Sweden in 16th century, but that sounds more like his (possible) grandfather Jacob Robertson of Struan who left Scotland to work as a physician in Stockholm, Sweden.
So..... what to do next?
I would like to search different archives in Scotland, but I am not familiar to them. You need credits to search and so on. Here in Sweden we use subscription and you can search as much as you like for a while.
I am also not familiar to the system to search, but I guess I´ll learn if I try... ;)
Thank You for all the help!!
-
Hi again!
I searched the Scotlands People for Christian and found this guy.... might he be "my" Christian??
(Date of birth:)24/12/1613 (Surname:)ROBISOUN CHRISTIAN (Parents:)JOHNE ROBISOUN/CHRISTIAN HENDERSOUN FR319 FALKIRK /STIRLING 479/00 0020 0025
I had only 10 credits, and I don´t know how to search for him really...
/ Helena
-
You will need to find out when Jacob moved to Sweden and find out if the family are established there.
-
Jacob/James are often used for the same person so I wouldn't discount Christian the son of James if he fits your time frame. Jacob being the latin form of James.
I have one James or Jacob in my own tree, which made him a tad difficult to find.
-
I will look for Jacob Robertson in Stockholm right away to determine if he is the grandfather of my ancestor Christian Robson (Robsahm).
THANK YOU for all the help! I will gladly read more if you have more suggestions about doing research in Scotland.
/ Helena
-
Helena,
Just a word of caution about doing research in Scotland in the early 1600s. That era was well before the start of statutory records. Even the church (parish) records had barely started, in many places did not start for many more years and even when they did start many births were not recorded. There was no comprehensive system of recording key events in peoples lives, as there is today. In the period 1610 - 1620, only a handful of births would be recorded. Perhaps less than 5% of the population.
In the 1600s, unless you were very wealthy, famous or influential, or in trouble with the authorities, it was quite possible to live your entire life without leaving any documentary record at all. So you should consider the possibility there may not be any record of Christian's birth or life in Scotland at all.
If you have found some data that suggests it might be him, you really need some confirmation from another source to make sure you have the right person. Ideally something like a will in Sweden, naming relatives back in Scotland. That way you can place him geographically, and link him to other family. Otherwise there is a danger that you are just guessing his ancestors, based on information on the handful of Robsons who did leave some documentary traces in the 1600s.
Elwyn
-
Dear, Elwyn!
Absulutely! I understand that there is very difficult to find any more information about his birth family. But I will keep looking here in Sweden where you can find a lot more around this time in history. I will check up this possible grandfather of his and see if they might be related.
Actually, I am doing this for two reasons. I am first of all interested because of my family tree. I have been doing genealogy reserach for many years now and I am fascinated by all the surpises you get along the way to find your ancestors.
But second, I´m writing a historic novel about Christian Robson. I will use what I can find, but if necessary I will make it up while I am writing. He is a very interesting character and I am sure this novel will be a long, very long, project of mine.
So if I don´t find any more evidence that Christian Robson was born in clan Dunnachaid for instance, I will still do more research about that clan to include that in my book. (But not in my family tree!)
Thanks again! / Helena
-
Kirkwall which I believe is Argyll
Kirkwall is not in Argyll; it is the capital of Orkney.
-
Thank You all!! I have come a long way in my research and it´s worth so much to me.
Right now I am trying to locate a Partick Robertson and his wife Elizabeth Ramsay that might be the parents of Jacob Robertson of Struan who might be the grandfather of my ancestor Christian Robson (1613-1685).
Elizabeths Ramsay´s parents names were Jacob Ramsay and Jonetha Scot.
Anyone who have heard of them before??
Thank you again!! This is really a great forum.
/Helena in Sweden
-
Kirkwall which I believe is Argyll?
Kirkwall is not in Argyll; it is the capital of Orkney.
Sorry Forfarian,
I get Lochend in Campbeltown and Kirkwall mixed up.
Both places I have had a little research not a lot and perhaps I should have followed that remark with a question mark and not make it sound as if it was a positive. ??? ::) I don't live in Scotland and I only visit occasionally when funds allow. Most of the people who I would have gone to see are now dead.
So once again, apologies if I have offended you with my ignorance of Scotlands Islands. marcie
-
Absolutely no offence imagined, Marcie. Just didn't like to think of the frustration of looking for Kirkwall at the other end of the country.
-
Christian Robsahm (of whom my husband Peter Robsahm is a direct descendant) is no relation to Jacob/James Robertson of Struan. Robertson of Struan had four children, three daughters and one son, The daughters married at leat partly into Swedish nobility, whereas his only son, Jacob, died in the Russian-occupied town of Dorpat 1659 without offspring. All these children were born well into the 1620's so it is even for other reasons impossible for Christian Robson to be a son or grandson of Robertson of Struan.
Here is the info in Swedish:
Robertssons liv
Jakob Robertsson föddes 1566 och var son till Elisabeth Ramsay och Patrik Robertson, som tillhörde den friherrliga ätten Robertson till Strovane6 i grevskapet Perth i Skottland.
Robertsson kom från Skottland till Sverige runt sekelskiftet 1500-1600. Då var han redan både filosofie och medicine doktor och antas ha slagit sig ner i Stockholm för att söka sitt uppehälle, liksom många andra skottar som kom till Sverige på den tiden.
Den 15 februari år 1614 antogs Robertsson till konung Gustav II Adolfs livmedikus, tre år efter det att han blivit anställd som hovmedikus. Då han utsågs till livmedikus var han med kungen i fält i Livland, en av många utlandsfärder han gjorde i tjänsten.
Åtskilliga gånger tog han emot donationer av gods och gårdar både i Sverige och Livland. Detta tyder dels på att hans förtjänster uppskattades, dels på att han själv såg till att hävda sin rätt och förskaffa sig ekonomiska förmåner. Det sades ofta om honom att han var påstridig vad gällde det ekonomiska. Fisher skriver rentav om honom att han var ”greedy and constantly applied for new royal gifts”.
Den 26 november 1623 erhöll han privilegium på inrättande av ett nytt apotek i Stockholm. År 1626 eller 1627 överlät han dock skötseln av det, antagligen därför att han var med kungen i fält och inte längre tider kunde vistas i Stockholm. Några år senare sålde han apoteket, förmodligen till följd av den konflikt angående inköp och leverans av apoteksvaror, som han hade hamnat i med sin landsman Ralegh eller Ralle Sanderson. Även om Robertsson lätt hamnade i konflikter med borgare och andra personer i Stockholm vid hans läkarpraktik, så syntes kungen tillfreds med hans insatser och upphöjde honom år 1630 i adligt stånd.
Robertsson ingick på 1620-talet äktenskap med Margareta Blomen med vilken han fick fyra barn, nämligen sonen Adolf och döttrarna Christina Jacobina, Elisabeth och Maria Eleonora.
Margareta Blomen dog 1646 och därefter gifte Robertsson om sig med Anna Seitserf. Bröllopet ägde rum sommaren 1650, då brudgummen uppnått en ålder av 84 år, medan bruden bara var 15 år gammal. Robertsson dog år 1652.
Best regards/vänliga hälsningar Maria Robsahm, Hjo
-
My Swedish isn't really up to much, but I think this is the gist of Maria's Swedish information. The rest of it is a bit beyond me. Corrections and improvements welcome.
James Robertson was born in 1566 and was the son of Elizabeth Ramsay and Patrick Robertson, who was a member of the baronial family of Robertson of Struan in the county of Perth in Scotland. Robertson came to Sweden around the turn of the 16th to 17th century. There he studied both philosophy and medicine ….. and many other Scots also came to Sweden at that time. On the 15th February 1614 Robertson became personal physician to King Gustave II Adolf, and three years later he was installed as court physician. ….. With the King to Livonia [roughly present-day Estonia and Latvia], and he made many overseas journeys with the king. ….. Many gifts of goods and land both in Sweedn and in Livonia. …. Fisher wrote of him that he was ‘greedy and constantly applied for new royal gifts’. On 23 Novermber 1623 he gained the privilege of establishing a new apothecary’s business in Stockholm. In 1627 or 1628 ….. sold the apothecary’s business …. with his countryman Ralle Sanderson. ….. conflict with town and other people in Stockholm over his medical practice …. king raised him to the nobility in 1630. In 1620 Robertson married Margaret Blomen, and during their 20-year marriage they had four children, a son Adolf and daughters Christina Jacobina, Elisabeth and Maria Eleonora. Margareta Blomen died in 1646 and Robertson married Anna Seitserf. She was born in the summer of 1650, so the bridegroom was aged 84 and the bride was 15 years old. Robertson died in 1652.
-
Sorry about posting in Swedish. Here is a translation of my earlier posting (with minor corrections)!
all the best
Maria Robsahm
Robertson came to Sweden around the turn of the 16th to 17th century. By then he was already PhD and MD and it is assumed that he settled in Stockholm to make a living, as did many of his fellow scotsmen who arrived in Sweden at the time.
On February 15th 1614 Robertson was appointed personal physician to King Gustavus Adolphus, three years after he had been installed as court physician. He was by then accompanying the King to Livonia [roughly present-day southern Estonia and northern Latvia], and he made many overseas journeys with the king.
He received several gifts of estates and land both in Sweden and in Livonia. This indicates partly that his work was appreciated and also that he was able to get financial rewards. It was often said about him that he was very driven concerning everything that had to with money.
Fisher wrote of him that he was ‘greedy and constantly applied for new royal gifts’.
On 23 Novermber 1623 he gained the privilege of establishing a new pharmacy in Stockholm, one of the very first in the Swedish capital. It is still in existence. In 1626 or 1627 he hired a help to run the business for him, probably because he was with the King at war and no longer was staying in Stockholm.of
A few years later he sold the pharmacy probably because the ongoing conflict with his countryman Ralle Sanderson. Even though Robertsson seems to have easily fallen into conflict with fellow citizens of Stockholm he continued to be in the Kings good trust and he was knighted in 1630.
In the 1620’s Robertson married Margaret Blomen, and during their 20-year marriage they had four children, a son Adolf and daughters Christina Jacobina, Elisabeth and Maria Eleonora. Margareta Blomen died in 1646 and Robertson married Anna Seitserf. She was born in the summer of 1650, so the bridegroom was aged 84 and the bride was 15 years old. Robertson died in 1652.
-
Thank you. I am relieved to find only one glaring error in my attempt at translation. Must try harder :-)
-
I have figured it out too that Christian Robson might not be related to Jacob Robertson. Thank´s, Maria!
-
Hello everyone related to this thread,
I'm not sure how old the thread is or if any one might still monitor it.
I believe there could be another angle here. I am researching the Roberton family, sometimes spelled Robertoun or misspelt as Robertson.
There are two sources that state that 3 brothers Roberton came from Scotland under the Marquis of Hamilton to support King Gustav. One ended up in France (John) but that two stayed in Sweden:
"The other emigrants went to Sweden, where they prospered and left
descendants, who were ennobled as Robsalm and of Robson ; they bore
the helmet with the addition of a large plume of feathers, and for crest,
an anchor, the same as the Robertons in Scotland" https://archive.org/stream/ScottishArmsV2/42540-ScottishArmsV2_reduced_djvu.txt
If this helps great, if I'm missing the mark please let me know.
Thanks,
Paul
-
According to The Surnames of Scotland Robertson is of territorial orgin from the place of that name in Lanarkshire, and Robertson is a patronymic meaning 'son of Robert'.
But if these brothers' surname was Roberton, why would they choose variants of Robertson with an 's' when they adopted Swedish surnames?
Maybe you should not dismiss the possibility that it is Roberton which is the 'misspelling' and that the brothers' surname was in fact Robertson.
-
Roberton is definitely a locative surname, literally the "ton" or "town" of Robert. The etymology very distinct from Robertson. Nesbit in A System of Heraldry Vol II makes the case for Roberton going back to c1220 with charter evidence. Most academics such as GSW Barrow in The Kingdom of the Scots, and others such as AA Duncan, Lauran Toorians, Richard Oram, and more recently Alex Fleming in Scotland and the Flemish People, 2018 Birlinn Books all cite Robert the brother of Lambin Fleming as the progenitor the Roberton family. They were Roberton of that Ilk, of Earnock, of Bedlay. Completely separate to Robertson.
As for the Swedish connection, both Nesbit and Stoddart cite Matthew Roberton following the Marquis of Hamilton to Sweden (via Germany I think). They actually cite Robsalm, but I found "af Robsahm" but in either case I agree it's incongruous that the name evolved to an equivalent of Robertson.What piqued my interest was the heraldic reference where the Robsalm arms were described as "a helm on a field with a plume" topped with an anchor which very much echoes the Roberton arms "quarterly, 1st and 4th gules a close helm argent, 2nd and 3rd Argent a cross crossed fitchee gules" crest, an anchor proper. Robertson were "gules three boars heads or".
That's stating what I know based on the work of others. I'm at a loss as to what happened to the Robertons who left Scotland with the Marquis but if you're interested in collaborating, I'm keen to find out.
-
Some musings on the original post in this thread.
Traditionally, the name Christian in Scotland was more usually given to girls than to boys.
Out of sheer curiosity I had a look at the indexes at Scotland's People.
In the Old Parish Registers of the Church of Scotland are 13,791 girls and 22 boys who were given the name Christian. The earliest record of a girl being named Christian is in 1566 and the earliest boy is in 1614.
The 'other churches' baptisms record 14 boys, the earliest in 1776, and 1360 girls, the earliest in 1360.
The Roman Catholic baptism show a different pattern, with 199 boys to 118 girls. However the earliest girl was in 1708 and the earliest boy in 1782.
I'd also be interested in why you associate your Christian Robson with Clan Gunn? If he was associated with Robertson of Struan, that would suggest a connection with Clan Donnachaidh rather than Clan Gunn.
-
I would also point out that Robson and Robertson are completely different names. Robson is or was a common surname on both sides of the Scottish-English border. Robertson can be a Highland clan name but is also common in Lowland Scotland. I don't think the two surnames are often confused.
Harry
-
If any one is still searching the topic of this thread, I just found a Familysearch result relating to the marriage of Robertson to Anna Seitsef, daughter of Major Alexant Seitserf on 14 Jan 1851. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9SV-5WHY?view=index&personArk=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQL9Z-LH1D&action=view
I saw the entry and thought I'd report back here in case it was of interest. It includes the original type written entry.