RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Harry1968 on Friday 17 September 10 15:25 BST (UK)
-
Hello,
I am new to Roots Chap. This is my first post.
Would anybody know when Tolka Cottages in Drumcondra, Dublin, were built.
I know they appear on the 1911 Census for Dublin, but they do not see to appear on the 1901.
-
I'm not sure that it's the same location as the 1911 census but there's a Tolka Cottages near Finglas ... based on the OSI maps these were definitely not present in the 1890s, so built sometime after that see : Tolka Cottages, Finglas (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,714188,737898,7) (press 1 for the modern map, 8 for the 1890s map)
The streets listed in the Drumcondra DED along with Tolka Cottages on the 1911 look to be located a bit to the east of this... so maybe there was another location of the same name ?
Sometimes newer cottages are listed on the 1901 census under temporary names - like UDC or township cottages etc, or just included as part of the existing road they were off.
Shane
-
Thank you Shane,
Unfortunately, I do not think these are the ones I am looking for. The Tolka Cottages in Finglas are sometimes confused with the ones in Drumcondra.
The Drumcondra cottages were pulled down circa 1950 due to persistent flooding problems in the area.
They once stood on and near the green area adjacent to Tolka Bridge and Fagans Pub (Botanic Road). This area was recently restored and the original statue of Ave Maria (statue of Mary) reinstated.
Locally they were known as Tolka Cottages. My grandmother was born into the cottages in 1925 and remained there until their closure, but unfortunately she does not know when they were built - pre 1911
Harry1968
-
I had another look based on the approximate location you mentioned - and see the cottages shown on the 1890s OSI map, close to Fagan's - see : Tolka Cottages, Drumcondra (http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,716071,736701,7) (press 8 for the 1890s map).
Some buildings also appear at the same location on the the older 6" inch maps (1820s to 1840s) - but are unlabeled on these.
Doesn't explain why they dont seem to be included on the 1901 census - possibly one of the streets yet to be filmed or maybe the occupants are included on the Botanic ave listing.
Shane
-
Thanks Shane,
I had a look at the map again. Thank you for the tip. Those old maps are extraordinary. I have already cross referenced with ancestor and other surnames in the area on the 1901 census with Glasnevin and Botanic, but to no avail.
It is worth noting the Cenus On Line already have a notice advising "missing data" for 1901 census. I have other friends and colleagues who have similar problems in relation to misssing data between 1901 and 1911. It seems to relate a lot to Drumcondra and Rural Drumcondra (Santry), North Dublin.
I will take a trip to Bishop Street (National archives) to view original microfilms in case not transferred to On Line resource. Will check with Dublin Corporation to see when cottages were built.
Thanks again,
will keep you posted.
Harry :)
-
Harry,
It's very likely you'll have to go to the original paper returns.
I had a similar problem with Cappoquin in Waterford and it turned out that the Mormon church missed a book of returns for the town and it was never microfilmed. The NA are planning to scan all of these outstanding ones but it's going to take time. I noticed the problem over a year and wrote to them about it, still not rectified.
Purpeller
-
Thank You Purpeller,
I think we have all come to expect "instant" images of these records on our computer screens.
Having managed to secure and view 8 key surnames of my ancestors on the 1911 census on line it was disappointing only to find 3 of them on the 1901. I know these ancestors were in the same general area in 1901 from birth certs, marriage certs etc, but nevertheless it was a bit frustrating not to find them in 1901 on line. Santry, Balrothery and Swords seem to have huge gaps from the hard data.
Harry
-
Just doing this from memory but as far as I can remember Tolka Cottages were at the end of Botanic Avenue and part of the complex where Lemon's Sweets factory was.
If you were going down Botanic Avenue towards Drumcondra you get to T junction with Fagan's Pub on your right, they would have been on the left.
-
Hi Harry,
I can't verify when they were actually built, but the Tolka Cottages you refer to were definitely around in the 1860s. If you do a search by location on http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/ for 'tolka cottages', you get a number of records from that era, including one for my great great great grandfather.
I did a bit of googling about Tolka Cottages a number of months ago. They're referred to in a book called 'James Joyce's Dublin', because apparently, the great man comments on them (although not by name) in 'Portrait of the Artist ...'.
-
Hi Anchor,
Many thanks for your reply. 1860, wow. I did not think they were built that far back.
I will have a look at the website later.
thanks again
Harry1968
-
My Mam was born in Tolka Cottages in 1927 and moved to Whitehall when she was about 12. Both sets of her grandparents were from the cottages. I found them on the 1911 census but there is no trace of either family on the 1901. I have a copy of her grandparents marriage cert from 1902 showing them both as living there I reckon that the 1901 census returns for Tolka cottages were never digitalised. I have emailed the NAI to seek clarification and will let you know what they say. In the meantime, here's a link to a photo of the cottages that I found on dublin.ie (See post #28)
http://www.dublin.ie/forums/showthread.php?14956-Tolka-Cottages/page3
-
Hi,
Not sure of the relevance, but my father told me a story about talka cottages. He grew up nearby and an uncle of his hold him that the people who lived in the cottages all had the name of the fish in the river, pike, Salmon, Roche, etc... These families had come over from Britain as servents of the land owner probably some time in 1800s. any truth in it??
-
I don't know about the 1800s but the 1911 census only shows 2 'fishy' names - Pike and Swan.
The cottages don't show up in the 1901 census but I think that it was enumerated but not digitalised
-
I have emailed the NAI about Tolka Cottages and since I got no reply I decided to go in and look at the film myself. I found Tolka Cottages on 1901 but guess what - my family weren't there :(
However there are 39 houses listed and the Heads of Households are :
Joseph McLoughlin
Thomas Kelly
Sarah McNeill
James Kelly
Christopher Harford
Andrew Fitzpatrick
Patrick Connor
Daniel Kinsella
Patrick Smith
Nicholas Barnwell
Frank McLoughlin
James Lynch
Bridget Graham
Michael Connor
Ellen Scully
Anne Drum
Catherine Nangle
Eliza McDonnell
Patrick Kenny
Kate Maher
James Byrne
Kate Kenna
Mathew James
John Caffery
William Marks
Margaret Lynch
John Rice
Patrick Carberry
Thomas Connor
Charles Boughton or Brughton
Thomas Cowley
John Hickey
William James
Richard Farrell
John Hughes
Thomas Davy
Patrick Finn
Peter Hanly
Bridget Malone.
These names might be of some use to someone else. Curiously, the enumerator had Tolka Cottages listed as being in the parish of St. George. My G Grandparents were living in the cottages in 1902 but the wedding cert is from Fairview (Church of the Visitation). Apparently Drumcondra was part of Fairview Parish from 1879. Prior to that it was Clontarf parish. I've had a search done for my G Grandfather's birth cert in Clontarf but no luck there. Anyone got any bright ideas ? Where would I find records for St George's ??
-
St George's is presumably the "Civil Parish" (St George's Church is in Temple St., no longer used as a church.).
You need to look at the R.C. parishes instead. (maybe he wasn't born/baptised in the Drumcondra or Clonfarf area.)
If you give us your Gt Grandfather's name we could search for him.
regards eadaoin
-
Thanks Eadaoin,
He was Michael Evans, he married Hannah Fitzpatrick on 14 Sep 1902 at Church of the Visitation, Fairview. His parents are listed as James and Kate of 2 Tolka Cottages.
Michael appears on 1911 age 31, giving him a DOB c1880. Any help would be much appreciated.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Drumcondra/Tolka_Cottages/28304/
-
Months later and I am still no closer to finding Michael or Tolka Cottages on the 1901 census. I have emailed the NAI numerous times and am still awaiting replies. I am convinced at this stage that Michael's birth was not registered. I've checked all the possibilities at GRO and he is not there. The LDS site shows several prison records for Michael Evans of Tolka Cottages but according to my family. that is not him, it's a cousin. I've tried the Church of the Visitation, Fairview which apparently was the parish at the time. I got his marriage cert but no birth cert. I was told that Tolka Cottages previously belonged to St. John's parish, Clontarf. Their records are not at NLI and I'm having difficulty getting a search done.
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Has anyone had any luck viewing paper census returns for Tolka Cottages at NAI ?
-
Have you viewed the Eloctoral Rolls ie Michael Evans 1908 C in rere of Tolka Cottages possibly another address to look for and on Irish Genealogy some of the addresses for Tolka Cottages give Corry or Cony Lane which i believe is actually Coady or Cody Lane.
Edit my ancestors the Dingles lived in Coady lane and most were baptised in St Michan's.
-
Thanks a million Dathaí, I've seen Cody/Cory Lane on other records and did not realise where it was. I'll check those out, cheers !
-
Just found this post by chance. My grandmother was born in 3 Tolka Cottages in 1890. Surname Callaghan. So they are very old. Hope this sheds some light on their age.
-
Sorry. Misinformation previous post. They were there in 1908. Apologies.
-
Tolka cottages may also have been known as Botanic Cottages, in 1921 Robert Pike an ex soldier was shot dead beside Fagins pub as he stood with his wife and a friend, Robert was accused by the IRA of having informed on the Volunteers who took part in the Ambush at nearby Tolka bridge that January, previous to that he was also named as been the man who followed Sean Treacy and Dan Breen to Prof Carolans house in Drumcondra in October 1920, the house was raided and Carolan killed along with 2 British officers, Breen and Treacy though wounded escaped.
-
Dear Harry1968: "My grandmother was born in 3 Tolka Cottages in 1890".
Do you know where Tolka Villas were?
-
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Mentioned here in this Enumerator's Abstract. Richmond Avenue includes Tolka Villas.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000028357/
KG
-
From an 'Irish Press' advertisement of March 1948:
PROFIT RENT OF £24 7s. 3d. PER ANNUM arising out of the Dwellinghouse and Premises known as TOLKA VILLA., and Nos. 1, 2 and 3 TOLKA VILLAS, RICHMOND ROAD, and also known and described as 226, 228, 230 and 232 RICHMOND ROAD, DRUMCONDRA
TO BE SOLD IN ONE LOT
Nothing remains of the original houses.
-
My Grandmother was born in 1922 in 9 Tolka cottages Im trying to find out who lived there in 1911 but there does not seem to be a number 9 Tolka cottage recorded I know her mum was Mary Kenny and Mary Kennys dad was Patrick Kenny, Has anybody come across number 9 Tolka Cottages?
-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1884/10910/5985241.pdf
missing from 1901 Census
Mary 1898 Tolka Cottages
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1898/02063/1788405.pdf
but son Leo born at 9 Tolka Cottages ,July 1901
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1901/01943/1751429.pdf
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Drumcondra/Tolka_Cottages/28315/
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1918/09729/5529922.pdf
-
Thank you dathai, that's been a very big help, I now have a last name for Catherine Kenny M Donnel & I did have the name William Daly from my grand mothers birth certificate he was born in Charles town Co Mayo and his father was called Micheal. William Daly joined the British Army in 1916 that would seem a strange thing for an irishman to do ? do you have any ideas why he would of done that ?Thanks again for your help
-
Many thousand's of young men answered the call ,naively they thought they were going on a big adventure ,little did they know what horrors faced them,some joined out of loyalty to the crown others through not having employment and it seemed an easy way to earn a shilling and possibly get a pension later.
The stamp of Patriotism had not yet been endowed in them till Mr Maxwell decided after the rising of 1916 to execute our leaders,little did he know he had made martyrs of them and stirred up the greatest revolution to ever stand up to the British Empire.
Many of the returning young men from the great war joined in and fought in the Irish Civil war and war of Independence their experience in weapons etc being invaluable to the cause.
You learn something new every day they say and i did today, i was intrigued by William's address as i never heard of it before ''Hospital ,Glasnevin''.
Was Mary Kenny a VAD Nurse is this how they met ?
https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/the-other-women-of-1916/
-
Thank you for that, and reading the article on VAD Nurses that would fit in with what she was doing at the Hospital. I have William Dalys Army records and its say his mother & father are both dead on his joining up papers, so It looks like he joined up for employment. His home address is given as Barrach st Co Mayo & born in Charles Town Co Mayo. He got to Dublin war hospital on 20th of June 1918 and Left on 29th of September 1918. The family gossip is my great grand mar got pregnant so they had to get married fast, why he was still at the hospital. Sadly 4 weeks after leaving hospital and at the army barracks in England Kent, he died of the flu. So my grand mar never met him. The army sent £23.56 back to Tolka Cottages Jan 1919 and some medals, the medals they refused to take, but there no doubt Patrick Kenny would of had a few round at Fagans on the £23.56
-
your grandmother was born 1922 ?
-
Yes she has a birth certificate that's says January 1922 but all her life she was adamant that was not her birthday, she always said they could not register her at the time ? Never gave a reason and she passed away in 2005 so I can't ask her, but my mum says the same, she was born earlier than 1922 and that's not her real birth date. What happened was her widowed mum met somebody else, and the new husband didn't want to take on my grand mar. She stayed at 9 Tolka cottages with her grand parents until they both passed away, then she came to England to start a new life in the 1940s.
I only first got a copy of here birth certificate 3 years ago, when I needed it to get on the foreign births register. I then looked up her dad William Daly that's named on the 1922 birth certificate and found out he died in 1918 ? Its a strange mystery have you any ideas ?
-
Hi Matt
is there any statutory declarations on the certificate that indicate she was a late registration,
i did see a birth in 1919 for a Mary? which seems to be redacted
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qmv/
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/notice-concerning-possible-redaction-of-historic-birth-records
-
Yes I looked at the link, and her name is Mary Daly and the dates would match up. There is nothing on her 1922 birth certificate to say its a late registration. It says she was born at Rotunda Hospital and her Father is William Daly address 9 Tolka Cottages. It does not say soldier as profession it says Labourer.(May have been to embarrassed to put soldier) So its got to be one way or the other. William Daly is not her real dad or for some reason they registered her then redacted it then re registered her 2 and a half years later. William Daly did have a sister that moved to England (In his Army records he spent the Christmas of 1917 at her house in London) so Im hoping to trace her family through my family tree. Thanks again for all your help
-
I get a sense of Dja ja vue
is this William in 1901 with his sister Maria and widowed father Michael who married Catherine Devaney in 1886
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1886/10853/5962872.pdf
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Kilbeagh/Charlestown/1599233/
Charlestown not in 1911 census
William is younger than his sister Maria
William Oct 1889
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1889/02450/1910706.pdf
Maria Feb 1888
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02524/1935119.pdf
Mother died 1899
63
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1899/05777/4633567.pdf
father 1907
181
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05510/4544347.pdf
-
Thanks again for all your help. Everything matches apart from his sisters name. She is listed on Williams army next of kin as Maggie Holmes. I'm assuming she was married to Mr Holmes. Maybe her second name was Margret like her mums and she then took the name Maggie ? Ive checked and check ed and your link is the only William living in Charles Town with a dad called Micheal and both parents had died before he joined the army.
-
They did have a daughter Margaret in 1892
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1892/02322/1869854.pdf
-
Wow thank you, I don't know how you find the records so fast it take me ages. Well thanks this, looks like this is my family from Charles Town Co Mayo.
-
........looks like this is my family from Charles Town Co Mayo.
Charlestown - all one word :D
https://www.townlands.ie/mayo/costello/kilbeagh/sonnagh/lowpark/
-
Sorry Charlestown :D
-
My Grandmother was born in 1922 in 9 Tolka cottages Im trying to find out who lived there in 1911 but there does not seem to be a number 9 Tolka cottage recorded I know her mum was Mary Kenny and Mary Kennys dad was Patrick Kenny, Has anybody come across number 9 Tolka Cottages?
My great grandparents lived in number 10 Tolka cottages