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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: hallmark on Wednesday 15 September 10 14:52 BST (UK)
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Just wondering if anyone knows what details a Copy of confirmation of arms would contain.
Wondering if it would just be a Cert, as such, for the named person or would it give proven lineage
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What do you mean exactly?
A grant of arms by the Chief Herald?
If so, this usually has no family information on it.
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Well on NLI it just says "Copy of confirmation of arms granted to...., son of...."
The grant of Arms is indeed done by chief herald, so presume the Copy of confirmation would be confirming he is who he says he is and has proven it and that the copy of confirmation is his proof in writing that he is descended from the person originally granted Arms by the herald.
I'm trying to find out if it would name the person originally granted the Arms possibly 300 years ago or more.
This person was granted a copy of confirmation of arms and I'm asking if anyone would know what this contains..
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What do you mean exactly?
A grant of arms by the Chief Herald?
If so, this usually has no family information on it.
What I mean exactly is, for instance, if your g/g/g/g/g.father was granted Arms, and you can prove your direct lineage back to him you can then get this confirmed, you would then also get a copy of confirmation which confirms you are a direct descendant .
So, I'm asking if anyone knows the amount of detail contained within the Copy of Confirmation!
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The original grant of arms will definitely say who it was granted to.
I have one here - in this case it was a surname becoming double-barrel after a nephew was named heir to his uncle, he appended his uncle's name onto his own. It states his relationship to the uncle but is mostly about the design of the arms.
There is currently no chief herald of Ireland, and I believe they do not plan to replace him. So if you were to go to the NLI, there wouldn't be someone who could "confirm" the connection. The happier news is that since there is no chief herald any more, you won't be subject to his whim and should have no problem getting to see the original grant. Until his retirement, he could decide whether or not to let someone see an original and most of the time didn't!
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Yes, it's the original person I'm trying to get to but am still wondering what would be on the manuscript in the Library. You have yours from the past to present times, I'm just trying to find out if this manuscript would contain lineage from present back in time to the original grantee.
If I knew who it was originally granted to then I wouldn't need it, which is why I'm asking if anyone knows what would be on the Copy of Confirmation of Arms granted to...., son of... would it name the grantee??
or has anyone experience of this please?
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Yes, it's the original person I'm trying to get to but am still wondering what would be on the manuscript in the Library. You have yours from the past to present times, I'm just trying to find out if this manuscript would contain lineage from present back in time to the original grantee.
If I knew who it was originally granted to then I wouldn't need it, which is why I'm asking if anyone knows what would be on the Copy of Confirmation of Arms granted to...., son of... would it name the grantee??
or has anyone experience of this please?
Grant of Arms was a device whereby land was exchanged for title. Omnce the land was transferred and the title bestowed, nobody was bothered to trace either back or forwrd from there.
Your question is a little unclear:
Have you traced from yourself back to a Grant of Arms and want to use that to go back further?
Or have you found a Grant of Arms and wonder if someone can trace it forward to you?
Please elucidate.
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I don't know what is so complicated about it.
Someone quite recently was able to trace himself back to someone who was granted licence to bear arms centuries ago.. he produced his evidence which was then CONFIRMED and he was give CONFIRMATION..
A copy of this confirmation showing he was indeed related to the person granted arms centuries ago is in NLI.
I was hoping someone would know if it would detail his lineage back in time
If, for example, I could prove I was related to Brian Boro and could prove it I could then get this lineage confirmed... A copy of Confirmation of Arms would then be given.
When this person produced his evidence it was confirmed that he was a direct descendant! All I'm trying to find out is would it show the line back.
I don't see what is so complicated or how I can make it any clearer.
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In the 1960s a man walked into the NLI and said "I'm a direct descendant of someone born in the 15th century who was granted licence to bear arms and I can prove it!"
A Researcher from the library was called in to check if this was true.
All documentation was produced and after being researched it was proven that this man was indeed related to the person from 15th century and confirmation was given which showed the evidence as being true.
The library researcher then says to the man in 1960s "I can indeed confirm you are related to this person from 15th century and here is your confirmation!"
A copy of this confirmation exists in the library and I'm just wondering if anyone would know how detailed it would be.
I know what a Heraldry Office is. I know what a Land Grant is.
The question is; Would the line back from present time to the person in the 15th century be given?
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COMPLETED.
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Yes, it's the original person I'm trying to get to but am still wondering what would be on the manuscript in the Library. You have yours from the past to present times, I'm just trying to find out if this manuscript would contain lineage from present back in time to the original grantee.
If I knew who it was originally granted to then I wouldn't need it, which is why I'm asking if anyone knows what would be on the Copy of Confirmation of Arms granted to...., son of... would it name the grantee??
or has anyone experience of this please?
Incorrect actually - I have one that I obtained belonging to a different family last year for a college project. I repeat it does not have any lineage on it.
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You were starting from the opposite end to me. You had the original.
I have the person in the present time who found he was related to someone centuries ago and he was able to prove it. This is what was confirmed. The confirmation is in the NLI.
What I am still trying to find out is; Will the confirmation given in 1960 say that he is indeed related to the person of the 15th century and show the lineage back from 1960 to the 15th century and then I can get the name of the person from 15th century.
The question is; Would the line back from present time to the person in the 15th century be given on the confirmation given to the person in 1960?
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It sounds as though you are trying to locate a document to see what information is on it? (hopefully a lineage with lots of family details). Is this something you've found in National Library catalogue? If so, it would make sense to contact them (if you can't go in person) to ask them to clarify what details might be in this document.
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Yes, I was trying to find out what details would be on a document which confirmed someone's lineage back in time to someone granted licence to bear arms centuries ago.
I can't make it any clearer than this;
In the 1960s a man walked into the NLI and said "I'm a direct descendant of someone born in the 15th century who was granted licence to bear arms and I can prove it!"
A Researcher from the library was called in to check if this was true.
All documentation was produced and after being researched it was proven that this man was indeed related to the person from 15th century and confirmation was given which showed the evidence as being true.
The library researcher then says to the man in 1960s "I can indeed confirm you are related to this person from 15th century and here is your confirmation!"
A copy of this confirmation exists in the library and I'm just wondering if anyone would know how detailed it would be.
The question is; Would the line back from present time to the person in the 15th century be given?
Reckon the NLI would be the best place to go but it was unavailable when I was there as it was being worked on.
I'm simply trying to find out what would be on the confirmation from 1960.
I know if I got the original from centuries ago there would be very little on it, but I'm trying to find out who the original person was. This man in 1960 proved his connection to whoever it was, I can prove my connection to the man in 1960's and I'm simply trying to find out how detailed the confirmation given to the man in 1960's would be.
Will try NLI as it's getting too complicated on this thread. It's a simple enough question but no one seem to know, so I'll mark it completed. Can you move it to completed threads please?
Thanks.
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http://sources.nli.ie/Search/Results?lookfor=Confirmation+of+Arms&type=AllFields&submit=FIND shows exactly what I was trying to find out about namely "Copy of Confirmation of Arms...." and what would be in them.
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If you had posted that link at the start we might have understood this is better. Suggest you contact National Library to see if they can explain.
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... it's getting too complicated on this thread. ...
With all due respects Hallmark, you're not making it easy.
Dara.
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They use the same words as me. "Copy of confirmation of Arms...."
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... it's getting too complicated on this thread. ...
With all due respects Hallmark, you're not making it easy.
Dara.
In Post 3 I posted
" if your g/g/g/g/g.father was granted Arms, and you can prove your direct lineage back to him you can then get this confirmed, you would then also get a copy of confirmation which confirms you are a direct descendant .
So, I'm asking if anyone knows the amount of detail contained within the Copy of Confirmation!"
It's an easy enough and straight question. I never asked about a grant of Arms, I asked about the copy of confirmation which confirms you are a direct descendant .
Am sorry I even asked! What's on NLI is the same as what I asked!
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There's no point in getting annoyed with us when we've been trying to help. As I've said several times, contact National Library for details of what is included.
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If you look through the other entries in your source you will see that many of them specifically mention that a pedigree, a tree or a reproduction of the coat of arms is included.
I would thus expect that if nothing else is listed all you will get is a formal description of the coat of arms (the blazon), the identification of the person to whom they were granted and possibly the person to whom it was originally granted. If there are difference between these two coats of arms then these difference will be formally described in the same terms as the blazon.
Colleges of Arms were in general only interested in pedigrees to the extent that they were used to prove entitlement to an earlier coat of arms. They frequently resorted to imposing differences to the shield and crest if they had any doubts about the entitlement rather than carrying out more detailed investigations.
David
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Thanks David, am back to 1750 with this line and with records running out it would at least give me a target to aim for, namely the original grantee (hopefully).
Unfortunately nothing else is listed, no mention of pedigree etc. so looks like I'm possibly not going to get one but can live with the formal description of the coat of arms, the identification of the person to whom they were granted and possibly the person to whom it was originally granted which is the bit I need.