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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: silverpulser on Wednesday 15 September 10 17:51 BST (UK)
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I have been trying to find evidence of my grandfather's, John (Claude) Hamilton, early years in Cork. The middle name appears on his death certificate in 1962 as this was known to my grandmother. However, I have not seen it used elsewhere.
I have traced his Merchant Seaman's Record (from the PRO/National Archives at Kew) since being demobbed after WW1 and these show his date and place of birth as 29th April 1895, Cork. Unfortunately there does not seem to be a corresponding entry in the index of births for Cork. The closest match was a John Hamilton 1897 in Skibbereen but this one was killed 1917 whilst serving in the Navy in the war and his entry can be seen on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission web site.
I have searched the 1901 and 1911 census records and cannot come up with a good match, which is where I was pinning my hopes after so many years of struggling and getting nowhere.
I have much information regarding his movements since joining the British Army during the 1st World War when he met and married my grandmother, Lilian Victoria Rogers, in Southampton Register Office 15th September 1920. On the marriage certificate he gives his age as 24 and there is a big blank in the space where his father's name should be! He had fallen out with his family and in March 1919 he travelled to Cork to try to make amends with them. Unfortunately this was unsuccessful and he abandoned any further hope of a reconciliation.
Here is a transcript of the letter he wrote to my grandmother from Cork:
Letter from John Hamilton to my Grandmother headed
Cork 25/3/(19)19.
My Own Dearest Babs,
Doubtless you might wonder why I have come on to Cork. I am beginning to wonder myself now dear. I changed my mind at the last moment at Surbiton and thought that if I came on to Cork my people would overlook things. I never made a bigger miscalculation in my life dear. They wouldn’t even speak to me. I tried every possible way Babs but it was worse than useless. I’m sorry now that I troubled about it, I might have known better. When I leave here I shall never come within a long radius of Cork.
You know my father is Scotch (sic) Babs and the decision of a hard-headed Scotsman is hard to alter. I know that I have asked for this and if I hadn’t you (to) think of dear I should just get out of the country altogether. When I left my people I felt very miserable and thought there was only one thing left to do (to get drunk) but I thought of my promise to you Babs and after all it wouldn’t have made things any better. I am leaving here shortly dear and shall call down to Porton to see you before I start my training in London. I’ll send you a wire the day before so that you can arrange to have the day off if possible. We can go to Salisbury for the day. I would have called down to see you before I left Surbiton dear but I came away in the clothes the army issue DV’s and I looked too awful for words. I looked just as though I had fell out of a mincing machine and felt like it too. I am in “digs” here Babs and it isn’t half as bad as I thought it would be. I am fairly comfortable but I am not stopping here long.
I’ll write you again Babs dearest and let you know when I am leaving. For the present “au revoir” with heaps of fondest love
From your own devoted
Jack xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Unfortunately he was not liked by my mother (his daughter) as he got drunk frequently when ashore from the Merchant Navy and was eventually estranged from my grandmother by a legal separation Order.
Can anyone please help me to find his birth/baptismal record?
Shaun
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All right, this is an extreme longshot.
There is a John Hamilton, age 68, naval pensioner, in Union Hall in Skibbereen in the 1911 census along with wife Margaret. It says married 32 years, 5 children, 4 living. None of the children are listed.
Could this be the hard-headed Scotsman father. Do you know if his father was actually born in Scotland (this guy is listed as born in Cork):
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Myross/Unionhall_Town_File_1/443746/
Same couple listed in Ballincolla (part of Union Hall) in 1901. Still no children listed:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Myross/Ballincolla/1157682/
I do *NOT* think this is the family of the other John Hamilton from Skibbereen who died in 1917. That John Hamilton was from Droum (Drom). The Southern Star news archives mentions his death in the North Sea, and that he was from Droum.
I think that family is here in the 1901 census:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Kilfaughnabeg/Droum/1157181/
and here in 1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Kilfaughnabeg/Drom/443176/
In the census I also see Hamilton men with Claud or Claude in their first names. There is a navy guy in Queenstown, age 49, born in England. I wonder if he could be a relative:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Queenstown_No__2_Urban/Casheview_Terrace/405990/
If you haven't already it is probably worth looking closely at men named Claude Hamilton, as your ancestor's name John Claude might give a hint to his line.
Other than that, it sounds to me like your man was born someplace besides County Cork.
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Shaun,
Skibbgirl has obviously done a thorough job of analyzing the Hamilton possibilities. I looked at all the male Hamilton entries in Co Cork in the censuses to see how many were born in Scotland. In 1901 none were born in Scotland at all. In the 1911 only 1 was born there (Duncan Kennedy Hamilton) but at 29 he can clearly be ruled out as a potential father.
There are some schoolchildren who are boarding and are in both censuses listed only by their initials (in 1901 for example there are 8 listed with just JH). None are of the exact age that fits with the dob. But he could be one of those I suppose. Likewise in the 1911, though again there aren’t any JHs aged 15.
Several things strike me about your problem: a) there’s no trace of a birth for your John H on the dob and place he has given when you might reasonably expect to find one; b) his father’s name is blank on his marriage cert. Why? Would being estranged cause you to say you didn’t know who your father was? I am not sure; c) you can’t find John in either census when you would expect him to be there, especially in the 1901 when he’d only be 5 & d) he doesn’t name any of his relatives in his letter in 1919, which somehow I found slightly odd. No mention of any siblings or other relatives names. Strange in a letter about family. Almost as though he wanted to keep their identity and location a secret.
One option that you might want to consider from this analysis is that John Hamilton wasn’t his real name at all.
Elwyn
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Thank you for your prompt replies. I am impressed.
I agree that the John Hamilton age 68 Naval Pensioner is a possibility. However, without any children present it is difficult to know how to proceed, especially as he may not have been settled anywhere for long when he was in the Navy.
I also agree that this is not the family of the John Hamilton from Droum who died in 1917. I have that John's birth certificate showing his parents as James Hamilton and Margaret (nee McCarthy). I also have his Naval record showing that he died aboard HMS Pheasant.
The "navy guy in Queenstown age 49 born England" was the subject of some research a little while ago. He was born William Claud Arthur Hamilton 1861 Q2 Stoke Damerel (near Devonport).. On the 1871 census he is in the household of Elizabeth Cumming at Babbacombe, Devon and shown as Nephew. In 1874 he joined the Navy (how young!). 1892 Q3 Gateshead he married Edith Annie Hodgson (b 1868 Newcastle on Tyne). Edith Annie died 1899 at Weymouth age 30. I do not know whether they had any children as i have not found him on the 1901 census yet. 1903 Q4 St Faiths he married Isabel Hartcup, a solicitor's daughter. I haven't found any children for this marriage yet.
I do not know whether my John Hamilton's father came from Scotland or was the child of Scottish parents. My grandmother told me many tears ago that he was a harbour Master at Dundee but research failed to confirm this. Here is a reply that I received regarding this:
Regarding heresay that John Hamilton’s father was a Harbourmaster at Dundee:-
.. Dear Mrs Montgomery,
I apologise for the delay in responding to your enquiry concerning your husband's great-grandfather. Dundee trade directories provide the names of the harbourmaster and the other principal Harbour officials. I have looked at the pre-1895 directories but have been unable to find any Hamiltons listed. I assume from the information you give that he must have been comparatively young when he left Scotland which would, on the face of it, make it rather unlikely that he would have reached one of the top posts. He may well have worked at the docks but perhaps in a lesser capacity. There were also a number of other smaller ports and harbours near to Dundee…
.. Dear Mrs Montgomery,
I have checked the directories back to 1861 and could not find any Hamilton associated with the Harbour. There appear to have been only 3 Harbourmasters in the period - Charles Yule, William Robertson and John Jack…
My grandmother also said that John Hamilton had sisters, Eileen and Kathleen who she briefly met in England. I have not been able to confirm this either.
Elwyn, regarding the possibility that his name was not John Hamilton is a scenario that I have considered, along with the possibility that he may have been illegitimate or adopted, though if he was, my grandmother nor my mother were aware of this. My mother does remember him saying (tantalisingly) " what would you think if your name wasn't Hamilton but (and I cannot remember exactly what she said) O'Hara " or something like that. My mother replied to him saying " I would like it better if it had been Rogers " (her mother's maiden surname).
I have many letters sent from him to my grandmother whilst they were courting and he was in the army and not one of them mentions any member of his family. Mostly they just relate what he and his pals were doing in their spare time (page after page of rambling about nothing in particular!).
The last avenue of research that occurred to me was what evidence of date of birth did he provide when he reached pension age. I remember my gran had to send off her birth certificate!
Shaun
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Hi, Im also researching Hamiltons in Cork but from an earlier period. The name and that he states his father as a scot may suggest a service type career like the RIC or coastguard or the lighthouses. Given that he became a sailor might imply one of the latter. These families moved around a lot in ireland but also between Ireland and the UK. Some of the station registers are now availlable on line from kew. Hope this may be of some help to you
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Hi, Im also researching Hamiltons in Cork but from an earlier period. The name and that he states his father as a scot may suggest a service type career like the RIC or coastguard or the lighthouses. Given that he became a sailor might imply one of the latter. These families moved around a lot in ireland but also between Ireland and the UK. Some of the station registers are now availlable on line from kew. Hope this may be of some help to you
Thanks for that. The problem lies with the fact that I do not know John Hamilton's father's name.
If I search the 1901 census for Hamiltons born Scotland and living anywhere then 108 results are returned. If I restrict the search to Cork them there are no results returned!
If I do the same search on the 1911 census then there is one result returned for Cork for a man aged 29 years old which is way too young as John Hamilton was born 1895 so his father would need to be in excess of 36 years of age. His wife is even younger at age 26. In the 1911 census there are 37 results returned.
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just wonder if they were distantly connected to any of this family?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Claud_Hamilton_(disambiguation)
PM
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just wonder if they were distantly connected to any of this family?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Claud_Hamilton_(disambiguation)
PM
Well, that would be a nice surprise. My John Hamilton spent most of his life at sea in the Merchant Navy. My mother despised him for the times he turned up the worse for drink, having spent any money he may have earned on the booze. Of course he was probably disowned by his family at a young age for precisely those attributes, having squandered a good private education, joining the British Army and marrying an English non-Catholic.
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Had a look at Ancestry family trees, and there are three claiming your grandparents:
http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/22632927/person/1273488578?ssrc=
http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/10467345/person/-636246986?ssrc=
http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/13803044/person/-7007189?ssrc=
Giving Birth 21 JUL 1897 in Droum, Union Hall, Cork, Co. Cork, Ireland.
These people could all be victims of little green leaf syndrome, but in case they are recent and cousins you don't know about, as they are Public trees, I thought it worth mentioning.
I wonder if you have considered sending a copy of that interesting letter to a newspaper in Cork? Someone in his family might still know about that visit in 1919.
www.corkman.ie
www.irishexaminer.com
www.eecho.ie
Another thing to consider is that unfortunately, by 1919 many young Irishmen who had fought in WW1 were not welcome as feelings of anti-british sentiment were running high at the time.
PM
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PM - Those Ancestry links point to a cousin of mine that lives in Canada. I originally bought that birth certificate for John Hamilton of Droum before I subsequently found out that he died in 1917. Unfortunately my cousin has never amended his tree!
The idea about sending a copy of his letter to the newspapers is a good one and I will do that today, with a copy of his photo as a young man (see original post) for good measure. Thanks for the links; most useful.
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After 25 years of searching it is beginning to look as if finding him is near.
My wife found a criminal record which showed he had given his address as 96 Horgans Buildings, Magazine Road, Cork, Ireland. Also found in the WW1 Pensions service records was a John Hamilton (David Hutton). Examination of that file showed that he had originally joined the army under the name of David Hutton, been discharged (bad behaviour) and re-enlisted later under the alias of John Hamilton. In one of the entries it shows his mother as Margaret Hutton and on another it shows his address as 96 Horgans Buildings, Cork. So, there is an entry for a birth of a David Hutton in 1895 Q2 Cork which I have applied to the GRO Dublin for a photocopy (much cheaper at 4 euros). Meanwhile a divorce in Dundee was found in the Dundee Courier showing a David Hutton petitioning against Margaret Hutton or Scannell now residing at 36 College Road, Cork (Horgans Buildings back onto College Road). David Hutton had married Margaret Scannell 30 June 1891 in Dundee after meeting her in Cork and bringing her back to Dundee to marry.
The research was carried out by both my wife and the good helpers at the Genealogists Forum and can be seen here:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=17548&page=2
There is quite a lot there to read but all good stuff.
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Now we know that we are looking for a David Hutton b1895 I have found him on the Irish 1901 census at the Passage West Boarding School Institution Cork in Main St.
Shona from Genealogists Forum comments:
"..The place was the St Joseph's industrial school for boys, run by the Sisters of Mercy, in Passage West, Cork. As with many of these places, it is listed as one where children were abused and tortured.
A book, A Passage in Time - History of Passage West, includes information on the school.
I wonder if there are records?.."
Unfortunately no such luck in finding him in the 1911 census. He joined the army in June 1911 but I don't know where he was before that.
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i recently got records of an ancestor who was in a convent in dublin 1901 run by sisters of mercy ,their archives are held in limerick as far as i can recall,unfortunately at time of writing another family member has a loan of the correspondance, but my initial starting point was to google sisters of mercy archives to find who to write to and they duly obliged but some info is still held under freedom of information act and i appealed this but was still turned down. i got mothers name etc.and reason for being sent there ''begging age 11''
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Mercy Archives ;;Marianne Cosgrave,Congregational Archivist,Carherine Mcauley Centre, 23 Herbert St, Dublin 2. Sent P M with email address.
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as i have said before i am not great on the computer so cant provide the link, but what do you think of this guy on 1911 census david sutton age 16 farm servant born dublin. no birth recorded for him at family search not on 1901 census either ,viewing the census form the s is border line with h may be one of our more esteemed colleagues could throw some light on this. also with all the rest of the hookery that went on maybe he told head of household he was born dublin. if it is him he is most likelyworking on licence from st josephs till he's 18 may have bunked off early to join army. one of my great uncles was in Artane and was released at age 16 on licence to work for a farmer in Dublin he reappeared on the 1911 census at home in wexford
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Dathai
Had a look at that census and I agree it is David Hutton
Here is the link
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001816733/
Should have given the link to the townland also
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Kilbonane/Kilcrea/374087/
Regards
annclare
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Had a close look at that entry and I am pretty certain that it is Hutton. It really shows up when you zoom in. Thanks for that. Farm servant fits in with what he stated on his Attestation when joining the army. His mother, Margaret Hutton nee Scannell, lived in Dublin for a while, though she was born in Cork, so maybe that was the reason the head of house gave his place of birth as Dublin.
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Update.
I have now received the birth certificates for David Hutton and his mother Margaret Scannell, both born in Cork City.
I have also received a reply to an enquiry to the Sisters of Mercy who say:
"..I wish to acknowledge receipt of your enquiry regarding records we may hold relating to the placement of your grandfather David Hutton in St Joseph’s Industrial School, Passage West, Co Cork.
St Joseph’s Industrial School was run by the Sisters of Mercy and Mercy Congregational Archives holds the surviving records of the school.
We will search the school archive for any information relating to your grandfather and revert when this is complete..."
So, it looks hopeful that some information on his early childhood years may be forthcoming. I'll let you know as soon as I have any more information.
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I now have a reply from the Sisters of Mercy Archivist. They tell me that David Hutton was admitted to St Joseph's Industrial School (for juniors) at Passage West on 10th July 1900 and left on 22nd June 1904 to transfer to Greenmount Industrial School (for seniors) run by the Presentation Brothers. I have emailed the Presentation Brothers and unfortunately their archivist is away for 6 weeks so no info from there until the end of July probably.
Reading a pdf file about the school at Greenmount the following statement by the then Bishop of Cork says:
"The object of this institution is to take from the streets poor boys who are on the way to
perdition, to rescue them from vice and misery, and to save the community at large from
the consequences of allowing them to grow up ... untrained, steeped in misery, and with
no means of support save what they can obtain by depredations on the community."
Having seen his mother's prison records, that statement seems to have been made for David Hutton!
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hi all, am hoping you can assist am tryibg to contact the sisters if mercy for possible records of my grandfather.i saw there was a mention of an email address for their archives and i was hopeful that you nay be able to share this with me? thanks heaps!
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Here is their web site:
http://www.sistersofmercy.ie/
At the bottom right hand corner is a "Contact us" link. Clicking on it leads to both their snail mail and email addresses.
Best of luck.
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I have now received a couple of documents from the arcchivist at The Presentation Brothers regarding David Hutton at the Greenmount Industrial School for boys (seniors).
Here is a copy (with her kind permission) of the report that my wife placed on the Genealogists Forum:
In June 1904 aged 9 years and 2 months, David Hutton was admitted to Greenmount Industrial School following four years at Passage West Industrial School. He was 4'4" and stout (!), fair with blue eyes - previous character good and four years of reports from the Greenmount school all stated "A good boy". Educational standard on entry - Reads and writes to 2nd standard. Can add and subtract.
His parents are recorded as John and (blank) Hutton and the box asking illegitimate states No! ('Parents' should read David and Margaret) Address, Aunt, Nora Cunningham, 5 Rope Walk Cork.
His aunt, Nora Cunningham, was one of the people who gave evidence about his circumstances at the original hearing in 1900. The result of the hearing was that David be ordered to be detained from 2nd July 1900 until 29th April 1911 (his 16th birthday) and at that time he had been charged with "Lodging with common or reputed prostitutes and in houses frequented by prostitutes for the purpose of prostitution".
In fact he was released on licence to a Mrs P J Murphy at Killumney (she was a farmer) in Dec 1910.
There is a note on the bottom of the form stating that "He called in May '17. In RFA Fought and wounded".
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So, we found that all very interesting, especially the bit about him calling back to the school in 1917. We are going to have another look at his letters to see if any of his numerous hospital visits might have been due to a wound rather than the bronchitis we thought he was being treated for!!