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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: jenwren on Wednesday 15 September 10 15:11 BST (UK)
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Running out of life, trying to find my g-g-grandmother, so hope someone knows something. Open to suggestions.
Margaret Anderson b abt 1841 - according to marriage and children's birth certificates
Birth location varies - could be Ayrshire or Stirlingshire, possibly Falkirk or Airth, depending on which cert.
Father: James ANDERSON - labourer - (Marr cert)
Mother: Jane (or perhaps Margaret) BLACK (again, that's all I have on marr cert).
Margaret married William TANNER at Moorabool River (near Geelong) in Victoria in 1858.
Chn: Mary Ann, Jemima Martin, James, Jane, Alice, William Alfred, John Joseph, Stephen, Charles John Sharpe, Harriet, William Stephen, Edwin Charles.
Nowhere can I find a marriage for Jane BLACK and James ANDERSON. Have scoured shipping lists and found several Margaret Andersons, of varying ages and in the company of various folk, but have no idea how to encourage the 'real' Margaret to stand up.
Margaret Died: 1926 St Kilda, Victoria. According to family stories, she came as a child to Australia with her aunt and uncle. No idea if her parents came, too. According to her death certificate she was 88 years in Victoria, which would mean she came to Oz in 1838 (!) Also death cert says she married at 22 and marriage cert says she was 16. Any wonder I'm confused?
About to download the Scottish marriages (link in resources) but on dial-up it will take all night, so will, tomorrow.
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Hi jenwren
Just to add to your variables!
In Scotland, some first names can have variables; a common string being Janet/Jessie/Jane/Jean (see this site www.whatsinaname.net).
There are some possibilities for parents' marriage showing on IGI at www.familysearch.org:
JAMES ANDERSON and JEAN BLACK Marriage: 10 FEB 1838 in Alloa, Clackmannan, and
JAMES ANDERSON and JANET BLACK Marriage: 07 AUG 1829 in Torryburn, Fife (member submitted entry)
To help you get your bearings on counties and parishes, these are useful links:
www.scotlandsfamily.com/county-map.htm
www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-maps.htm
Monica :)
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If they were in Scotland in 1851, did you find them on the Census ?
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Margaret Died: 1926 St Kilda, Victoria. According to family stories, she came as a child to Australia with her aunt and uncle. No idea if her parents came, too. According to her death certificate she was 88 years in Victoria, which would mean she came to Oz in 1838 (!) Also death cert says she married at 22 and marriage cert says she was 16. Any wonder I'm confused?
About to download the Scottish marriages (link in resources) but on dial-up it will take all night, so will, tomorrow.
possible on 1841 census
Name: Mary Anderson
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1837
Where born: Stirlingshire, Scotland
Civil parish: Denny
County: Stirlingshire
Address: Stirling Street East Side
Parish Number: 476
Household Members: Name Age
James Anderson 50
Margaret Anderson 45
William Anderson 5
Mary Anderson 4
Edmund Anderson 2
James Anderson 11 MO
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Hi Monica,
Thank you for the info, especially the marriages, suggestions, especially the 'name variables' and links, and inspiring more hair pulling ;D.
Will have a look at the maps, to get an idea of distances and places etc.
I'll have to stop saying 'I like a challenge'!
Jenn
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Hi Ron,
Thanks, but don't think Margaret was in Scotland in 1851, if figures can be believed...
Jenn
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Hi Sancti,
I hadn't found that one. At this point, which is not a lot different from where I was eight years ago, anything is possible, or likely :)
Jenn
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I haven't checked to see if that family were on the 1851 census
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Thanks, sancti, Will see what I can find. Recently cancelled my membership to ancestry to give the budget a breather.... No doubt I will renew!
Jenn
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Okay, thanks to some hints from you good folk, and a serendipitous connection with a distant rellie, I have a bit more info, so hoping someone might be able to add something...
Margaret Anderson came to Oz, aged 10, with her aunt and uncle William MALCOLM age 25 and wife Ann nee BLACK age 20. Ann was Margaret's mother's (Jane/Janet? BLACK) sister.
They arrived in Geelong in 1853 on the Childe Harold, along with Wm and Ann's daughter, also called Margaret (MALCOLM) who was 1 yo, apparently going to a Peter Malcolm, presumably a relative (?), at Batesford, near Geelong, Victoria.
Margaret ANDERSON was also living with the MALCOLMs in the 1851 Scotland census - they were living at Bothkennar, Stirlingshire. (Her age was '10' at that stage, too...)
Ann and Jane Black were the daughters of John BLACK and Margaret McEWAN (according to Ann's death cert which I now have). Ann was born in Alloa, Clackmannanshire, Scotland 1830-1832, year depending on passenger list and death certificate age.
So, perhaps, if Jane/Janet was an older sister the JAMES ANDERSON and JEAN BLACK Marriage: 10 FEB 1838 in Alloa, Clackmannan might just be be the one....!? (thanks, Monica!!) The rellie I've connected with has their marriage as 1838, but no more details.
Have discovered lots of information about sister Ann and her line, but poor Jane/Janet doesn't feature anywhere, so far.
Any further suggestions would be most welcome.
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Hi Jenn
Looks like you have been working hard :)
With this new info on potential sister Ann, I wonder if this could be an entry from 1841 for Ann with parents:
John Black 50, sower (not sure if this is a mistranscription or the actual occupation, maybe related to weaving?)
Margaret Black 45
David Black 19, Black Smith J(ourneyman)
John Black 15, Ap Wright J
Margaret Black 12
Isabella Black 10
Ann Black 8
Elizabeth Anderson 20
Address: Whins Colliery, Alloa, Clackmannanshire
I can't see any birth or christening entries for this family on IGI though to be able to confirm mother's maiden name as McEwan.
Was there an occupation for John Black, Ann's father, from her death cert?
Monica
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This looks to be the marriage of William Malcolm and Ann Black from IGI:
WILLIAM MALCOLM and ANN BLACK
Marriage: 11 DEC 1847 in Bothkennar, Stirling
Which fits well with the birth of their daughter (from the 1851 census) born in Bothkennar, Margaret Malcolm aged 5 months in the 1851 census entry. Nothing showing on IGI for births for them either unfortunately. Ann Black/Malcolm shows as aged 18, which fits well with that possible entry in 1841 with family.
She must have been really young when she married, c. 16?
Monica
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From that 1841 census entry I posted earlier for a possible entry for the Black family in Alloa, I wonder whether this is daughter Isabella's marriage:
ALEXANDER STEWART and ISABELLA BLACK
Marriage: 02 NOV 1850 in Tillicoultry, Clackmannan
Possible 1851 entry - as transcribed. The original image would let you confirm details better:
Alexr Stevart 21, Bracken, Forfar
Issabella Stevart 20, Woolen Weaver b. Alloa
Alexander Stevart 1 Month b. Tillicoultry
Margaret Black 57, mother in law b. Tillicoultry
William Anderson 2, lodger b. Tillicoultry (could this be a possible sibling to your Margaret?)
Address: Stirling Street, Tillicoultry
Again, nothing coming up for possible children for Alexander and Isabella on IGI.
There is a possible death for a Margaret McEwan/Black in Clackmannanshire post 1855, b. 1792 on Scotlands People which might help you establish more details.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
No sleep happening here ;D
This might just be the family. Occupation of John Black on Ann's death cert is 'not known', naturally...
Though, Ann's husband, William Malcolm was a coal mine labourer, according to the 1851 census info, living at Alloa, so maybe....
Also, according to one of Ann's descendants, John was born about 1791, and Margaret born about 1796, which tallies! Doesn't it? Laughing... a bit non compus this morning. Have to keep checking my sums!
Woohoo, thanks Monica!
If Jane/Janet/Jean (??) was indeed the one married in 1838, she wouldn't probably be there...
Think you've found another connection, Monica. You're a gem!
In the 1851 census for Wm & Ann Malcolm
STEWART Alexander Brolaw M M 21 Hand Loom Weaver Angus - Brechin
Looks like him! And, looks like Mum was helping out with the new baby.
Wondering if they, too immigrated to Oz. More sleepless nights coming up, I can see.
Also looks like I'll have to pay subs again at Ancestry to get copies of the censuses... :-\
Thanks so very much, Monica. You really are special!
Jenn
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Jenn, just a thought - may be cheaper (in the short run) to buy credits on Scotlands People, and access the census that way. You will be able to see the original pages as well as transcriptions, whereas on Ancestry you can only see their transcriptions.
Good luck with your search! I was trying to see whether I could help, but I think it's all under control for the mo... ;) ;D
Cheers
Prue
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Hi Prue,
Thank you for tuning in and for the suggestion. Had forgotten (lost in the fug) that there's not the same access on Ancestry to Scotland docs as for England... Scotland's People sounds the better option.
Also realised I have poor 'Alexander Stewart' with rellies in two places at the same time.... fudge. ??? Time to get away from the screen for a while, I think.
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Agree 100% Prue :)
Jenn, the Ancestry transcripts are invaluable for general searches for the censuses, but once you have found them, the original images are what you need. The two 1851 censuses for the Stewarts and Malcolms would be good for you to have the originals on. The original image for Margaret Black for 1851 would also let you confirm her marital status which doesn't show on transcripts. If she is still married, then we can look for husband John. There is this entry for example in 1851:
John Black, 55, Hand Loom Weaver (wool), b. Alloa
Address: King Street, Alloa
Monica
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Jenn, our posts crossed over. I did notice the double entry potentially for Alexander Stewart. Did happen occassionally that someone was listed in two places. The censuses were suppposed to record where everyone was precisely on the night of the census, but sometimes, as perhaps with Alexander, if they lived with family but were lodging/working away from home, they were recorded in two places.
Monica
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Isabella and Alexander Stewart are still in Scotland for 1861 (I thought they may have emigrated given the lack of children's births post 1855):
Alexander Stewart 31, Woolen Weaver b. Brechin
Isabella Stewart 30 b. Alloa
Alexander Stewart 10 b. Tillicoultry
David Stewart 7 b. Tillicoultry
Address: 16 Montrose St, Brechin, Angus
Monica
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Thanks Monica and Prue,
Have bought credits and now waiting to view - can probably write my family hist book while waiting for image to load... still on dial-up here :'( Jigging up and down on the seat!
I'm thinking Isabella and Alexander have to be family, though of course, I've been wrong before. But, at least all the info I found while tracing the wrong person helped someone else ;D
Woohoo.... first page!
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Laughing here (ya gotta) some nitwit census taker used invisible ink for the Stewarts one! Will see if I can get a glimpse with photo shop...
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Photoshop may not help if the image is so faint :-\ The thing to do is to contact SP directly regarding the image and the fact it is not legible (can happen and SP are very good at responding to this type of query). They can then try to get a better image direct from the source. They do this via email and respond within a matter of days. See www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=1210
Monica
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Hi Monica,
You're right, nothing helps, so will contact them. Thank you for the advice. Needless to say the Stewarts seem to be in the middle of the page where there are only a few grey spots. Just as well I have a sense of humour - one needs it on this journey.
Jenn
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The Scotland's People folk were marvellous. I had a legible image within 24 hours!
A bit more info, but still hitting a brick wall with James Anderson and Jane/Jean Black.
What I've found...
Jane/Jean's mother Margaret Black (McEwan) was a widow by 1851 (census) when she lived with dau Isabella (Black) & Alexander Stewart. She died in 1871 at Alloa, Clackmannanshire.
By 1861 Isabella and Alexander were living back at Alexander's home town, Brechin
Not sure when father John Black died, as I got 74 hits on Scotland's People, and none that seemed 'obvious'. Not a one in Clackmannanshire.
Margaret Black (McEwan) was the daughter of Marion McEwan (Anderson!) I think d. in 1866 in Alloa, Clackmannan (of 'Old Age' at 79), and husband William McEwan I think d. 1861 in Clackmannan, age 61, mother's maiden name McLaren. Will need to get more credits and the certs next payday.
There's also a death for Margaret Black age 47 in 1866 at Alloa... no idea if she's related.
I cannot find deaths for either Jean/Jane Anderson (Black) or her husband James. It's like aliens took them. I'm communicating with another (distant) family member and she's had no luck either. :( She also has their marriage as 1838 at Alloa, Clackmannanshire, so we agree that's them.
Poor old Jean/Jane doesn't seem to exist in the 'Black' family, yet everything else fits.
Jenn
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Correction
Marion McEwan was 68 at time of death.
Her daughter Margaret was 79 when she died.
sheesh..... need sleep
Jenn
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Okay, I've lost the plot.
The two deaths for Marion and William McEwan can't be parents of Margaret Black McEwan. They're too young. I realise folk often married young, but that's ridiculous.
Maybe they are William Jnr and his wife...? If there was a Wm Jnr.
Jenn
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Jenn
You are right, the deaths of the William and Marion that you have found would make them too young to be Margaret's parents :-\
Did the 1871 death entry for a Margaret McEwan/Black tally up? Husband's name and occupation, age at death etc. Who reported her death?
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Just goes to show my maths sucks in the early hours... ;D
So what have I got?
Margaret McEwan aged 45 in 1841 census, so b. abt 1794, married to John McEwan age 50 so b. abt 1791 who was a sawer (a worker in a timber pit or saw mill).
Margaret's death cert has her aged 79, in 1871, which would make her born abt 1792 - not far out.
Widow of John Black, a 'carter' (maybe for the saw mill, or change of job?).
Mother Marion Anderson
Father William McEwan
Informant for Margaret's death was James MURRAY - son-in-law!
Poss Christening & Birth for Margaret McEwan:
23 Nov 1794 CLACKMANNAN,CLACKMANNAN,SCOTLAND
Birth Date 18 Nov 1794
Father's Name Michael Ewan
Mother's Name Mary Drummond
Which does NOT tie in with parents on the death cert in 1871...! SO maybe I have the wrong Marg McEwan married to a John Black. Though another rellie on their trail has her parents as Marion Anderson and William McEwan.
So far no marriage for them, though there is one: Irvine Marriage - 20 Jan 1818 John Black & Margaret McGavin ??? Doesn't really 'sound' right.
Children of Margaret & John so far found:
Jane/Jean abt 1820 married James Anderson 1838 Alloa, Clackmannanshire
David abt 1822 at Alloa Clackmannanshire (unconfirmed)
John abt 1826 at Alloa Clackmannanshire (unconfirmed)
Margaret abt 1829 at Alloa Clackmannanshire (unconfirmed)
Isabella abt 1831 at Alloa Clackmannanshire (unconfirmed) Married 2 Nov 1850 at Tillicoultry to Alexander Stewart b abt 1830 at Brechin, and their son Alexander b abt 1851 at Tillicoultry
Ann 4 Jul 1832 at Alloa Clackmannanshire (established) married 11 Dec 1847 at Bothkennar, Stirlingshire to William Malcolm b abt 1826 at Larbert, Stirlingshire, who came to Australia. They had 12 children according to Ann's death cert, though there's only info on 10 of them - Margaret, Ann, Isabella, John, Ellen/Helen, Alexander, Elizabeth, Charles, Janet, Mearn, William and Ann.
Wondering if perhaps Margaret McEwan jnr married James Murray, if I have the right death. There were McEwans, Andersons & Blacks in the 1851 Larbet census, and one Murray (not James). There are also Black+Murray and Malcolm+Murray family connections.
Or did James Anderson die and Jane/Jean remarry to James Murray? Or was there another daughter, yet to be found?
The hunt continues.
Jenn