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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Ruskie on Tuesday 14 September 10 05:06 BST (UK)
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September already and there are only a couple of months before the last entry in Nathaniel's Diary. What a sad day that will be. :'(
Nathaniel hasn't been as diligent with his diary entries or as verbose lately which has been reflected in fewer posts, however we have reached another 20 pages, so I have locked Part 6 and we can continue our discussion here in Part 7. :)
Previous posts:
Part 1:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,457330.0.html
Part 2:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,459757.0.html
On page one of Part 2 is a recap of our discoveries and a timeline.
Part 3:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,464660.0.html
Part 4:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,469736.0.html
Part 5:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,472362.0.html
Part 6:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,474726.0.html
And Nathaniel's Diary:
http://www.westminster.gov.uk/services/libraries/archives/victorian-clerk/
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Out of interest I've looked up today's entry for 14th September:
Died this evening at Livermore Park, near Bury St Edmonds, the Honourable Justice Williams suddenly, in his 70th year.
I think that should be Edmunds, but I don't know if that was Nat's mistake or in the transcription ..... Anyway I wondered where he got the information from and looked in the newspapers of the day. The news first appears in several papers on the 17th - usually in a long obituary notice.
The only simple death notice I could find was in The Times of 17th September:
On the 14th inst, very suddenly at his residence Livermore Suffolk, the Hon. Mr Justice Williams,
one of the Judges on the Court of Queen's Bench
I'm assuming Nat would have added all these death entries after the event - I can't see the death of Justice Williams working its way round all of London by word of mouth on the actual day he died. Most people would only have known about it from reading the papers. Also Nat didn't repeat a death notice in his diary word for word from any newspaper report that I've seen. I wonder what his reasons were for recording the deaths of some people in his diary but not others?
Carole
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Good morning all,
Just catching up with everything after my Mum's funeral (Stella).
She left quite a few photo's so I am sure now Steven has them he will post any more that relate to Bryceson.
I've just seen Mongibello's family tree which is great but there is 1 little mistake.......... Freda E Bryceson should read Truda E Bryceson. She is still going strong and livng in suported housing.
Thanks again for all your kind words.
I will keep reading and learning.
Love
Ruth
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I have a confession, I like it when it goes slower! :P I can't keep up when all the posts are flying in.
Would be good maybe if Mongibello could e-post the family tree again on this post?
Hi Ruth, am very sorry for your loss, I was off the thread for a long while, and am slowing getting back to it. Very nice to "meet" you. I'm sure it must be quite difficult going through all your mother's things. I helped my mother do the same, and it's a very poignant time isn't it.
Carole...what about the Evening Herald/Standard, papers like that? Perhaps back then it took a while for papers to print etc, but didn't the news boys shout off headlines? Could the Judge's death have warranted that kind of attention?
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Hi all, Mum, take a look on the Part 6 pages 19/20 for the photo I posted. A agree with others that the old lady is NB#s daughter Sarah! You beat me too it, pointing out the mistake re Freda/Truda. Lots of love, Steven.
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I have a confession, I like it when it goes slower! :P I can't keep up when all the posts are flying in.
Would be good maybe if Mongibello could e-post the family tree again on this post?
Carole...what about the Evening Herald/Standard, papers like that? Perhaps back then it took a while for papers to print etc, but didn't the news boys shout off headlines? Could the Judge's death have warranted that kind of attention?
I agree Daisy - it is very difficult to keep up sometimes, though I do miss Nathaniel's really informative (and of course, personal) posts.
I also agree that it would be wonderful if Mongibello could post the tree again here. :)
Carole it is hard to work out why Nathaniel finds certain deaths worth recording in his diary. I imagine they may be personalities who appear in the news of the day, prominent people or people Nat has a high regard for .... :-\
Ruth, it's good to have you back after your sad time ... I hope you and the family are OK. I look forward to seeing any more relevant photos that Steven can post here. (I don't suppose there are any of Nathaniel?)
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Daisy Loo, Who is the Lucy Mabel Atwell you mentioned? Well done for making the connections which supported my own thoughts. Peace, Steven.
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I agree late 20s is probable date of photo.
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amd yes, looks like Sarah (NB's daughters) with her daughters Florence and Edith and Edith's husband Stan plus their son Stanley as the likely boy in the background.
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Daisy Loo, Who is the Lucy Mabel Atwell you mentioned?
She's an artist Steven. She draws the cutest little children ...
The first relevant google images I found:
http://www.oldpostcards.com/attwell001.html
There must be a bio for her somewhere, but surprisingly there's not a lot about her on the net. :-\
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Daisy Loo, Who is the Lucy Mabel Atwell you mentioned?
She's an artist Steven. She draws the cutest little children ...
The first relevant google images I found:
http://www.oldpostcards.com/attwell001.html
There must be a bio for her somewhere, but surprisingly there's not a lot about her on the net. :-\
There's lots on her as Mabel Lucie ATTWELL ;)
e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mabel_Lucie_Attwell
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Daisy Loo, Who is the Lucy Mabel Atwell you mentioned?
She's an artist Steven. She draws the cutest little children ...
The first relevant google images I found:
http://www.oldpostcards.com/attwell001.html
There must be a bio for her somewhere, but surprisingly there's not a lot about her on the net. :-\
There's lots on her as Mabel Lucie ATTWELL ;)
e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mabel_Lucie_Attwell
Yes, it might have helped if I'd spelled her surname correctly ... :-[
;D
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Thanks for the info about Lucy Attwell. Peace and joy, Steven.
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:-[ :-[ my fault Ruskie...I spelt it wrong in the first place! Probably no relation at all! Sorry! :)
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Good morning all,
Just catching up with everything after my Mum's funeral (Stella).
She left quite a few photo's so I am sure now Steven has them he will post any more that relate to Bryceson.
I've just seen Mongibello's family tree which is great but there is 1 little mistake.......... Freda E Bryceson should read Truda E Bryceson. She is still going strong and livng in suported housing.
Thanks again for all your kind words.
I will keep reading and learning.
Love
Ruth
Sorry about that. I got "Freda" from FreeBMD I guess there must be a transcription error somewhere. I will look up the microfiche of the register when I am at the Archives on Saturday.
That is Open House Day in London. They will be doing tours of the building, including the conservator's room and the store rooms where there will be some of the treasures on display. Perhaps even the Diary. You might have to struggle with road closures due to the Papal visit.
PS 1935 was a vintage Year.
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Dear all, Here is news from a walking friend of mine on developing two "Nathaniel Bryceson Memorial Walks" for ramblers groups etc. I shall keep folk posted on the try-out dates! Peace and joy, Steven.
Well finally i have plotted a route taking in the general direction that your Grandfather took but going through the most pleasant london green spaces and small roads as possible.
The snag is that the circular walk from the steps of St martins is about 32 miles and therefore has to be in two sections (21st century wimps or what?)
Section One is about 17 miles and tries to keep faithful to NBs general direction towards Kilburn but he was able to take a more direct route without traffic noise and diesel fumes. Ours goes through St James Park, Green Park, Mayfair, Marylebone, Regents Park, Primrose Hill, Parliament Hill, Hampstead Heath, Golders Green, and onto the Capital Ring heading west through Hendon, The Welsh Harp, Freyent Country Park, Kenton and, Harrow on the Hill. The good bits are a toilet and coffee break in marylebone and lunch at The Spaniards Inn on Hampstead Heath (about 8 miles)
Section Two is about 14 miles and replicates NBs walk down the A408 to Paddington without actually doing it (obviously). This means heading south from Harrow on the Hill to follow the Grand Union Canal to Paddington and then to Kensington Gardens, Hyde Park, Green Park, St James Park and, back to St Martins.
How does this grab you? Section One has a few hills but not excessively so. The overall plan is to create two interesting london walks.
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Nathaniel Bryceson walks! What a great idea Steven. ;D Any chance of the same walks but on a bus instead? ;D
It would also be nice to have a similar tour of Nathaniel's favourite haunts around Pimlico - of course many of the places would now be "in a pub/house/church/burial ground/coffee house on this spot" .... of course I don't know how popular such a walk would be. How many people are as obsessed as we are with Nathaniel?
Mongibello, next time you visit the archives would it be possible to try find out how many people are reading Nathaniel's diary? Is this something the archives are able to keep track of?
Maybe a booket/leaflet outlining the locations of these places might be worth producing? Westminster could even charge a couple of £'s for it? (But of course if you purchase a copy of the diary, the map/s would be included. ;))
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Fourteen miles? :o I think about 3 is my maximum limit in one go, but then I have got a "dodgy" knee.
Carole
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Dear all, Keith and I regularly do 20 miles a day but 34 is stretching it for us! Bus route is possible along the main roads, the routes NB took, but not great walking these days. NB worked in Pimlico in an area which is now a bit industrial by the river and not very exciting. However, where he lived in Soho is fun and it would be easy for me to do a tour of the churches, pubs and coffee shops of that area if anyone is interested. Peace and joy, Steven
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.... but then I have got a "dodgy" knee.
Carole
excuses excuses Carole ... ;D
yes Steven, I should have added Soho as well ... many of the places he visited have been found on these threads so it would be a matter of re-reading all the posts if you wanted to include everything ... :P
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Mainly because I haven't seen this thread slip so low in a long time, and I had to bump it...but also, because I am curious...as to what others think at this stage...
What exactly did Ann mean to NB?
They were publicly stepping out together. They were kissing etc in public. Does anyone think that Ann harboured hopes of marriage?
I was re-reading the last day's post...where he said he finally got her drawers off to no purpose....(why would she let him take them off...for no purpose??...)
He ends up marrying a girl closer to his age, so why is he with Ann? If she was young looking, and gorgeous, you'd think she'd do better than step out with a much younger man with not a lot to offer, unless love was the reason, and she was hoping for marriage?
Any thoughts anyone? I know it's all just speculation...but their relationship really intrigues me. ::) ;D
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Well to be honest I think she wanted marriage and was tempting him but I suspect all he wanted was a bit of ? hence the drawers off to no purpose comment - she was tempting him a bit more but only so far and he wanted to go much further !
Nesta
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Well! It's taken me three days!!
But in every free moment I have had, not only have I read Nathaniel's diary, but I have also read every post of every thread here and looked at all the links!!
What a mammouth undertaking...everytime OH has asked what I've been doing, he has said
"You're not still reading that diary, are you?"
I have been absolutely hooked!! Thank goodness I have caught up and found you lot here!
I only wish I could have contributed to all the research fun you've been having. But Wow!! How fantastic have you all have been!
(http://i522.photobucket.com/albums/w343/pumpernickel_01/respect-058.gif)
Here's to the rest of the diary!!
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lol @ Snowy ;D ;D
Welcome aboard...just as well it has been quiet...it may have taken you another day if the thread had been on a discovery mode! Ruskie and Deb keep my head spinning not to mention Carole and the rest of 'em!
So....what do you think of NB and Ann Fox?
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Maybe he sees her as a mother figure, as he wasn't close to his own mother.
He obviously needs a bit of TLC!!
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Hello
<quote>It was suggested a while back that Nat perhaps didnt get on well with his stepdad, Matthew ward. I think he likely did ...</quote>
Yes have to agree with you Steve. A lot more happenings since I suggested that have me thinking likewise.
I wonder how much of an interest Ann had in books. She did buy a book on an outing with NB. We know NB had many books in his room. Maybe this was her reason for being up there, where his was otherwise. :)
Linda
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Hello snowyw! You must have amazing stamina (and a very understanding OH ;)) to read ALL of this! Nathaniel's diary and our discussion has been all-consuming for myself and many others all year.
Unfortunately I feel that we have come to a bit of a standstill until Nat gives us some more clues.
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What exactly did Ann mean to NB?
They were publicly stepping out together. They were kissing etc in public. Does anyone think that Ann harboured hopes of marriage?
I was re-reading the last day's post...where he said he finally got her drawers off to no purpose....(why would she let him take them off...for no purpose??...)
He ends up marrying a girl closer to his age, so why is he with Ann? If she was young looking, and gorgeous, you'd think she'd do better than step out with a much younger man with not a lot to offer, unless love was the reason, and she was hoping for marriage?
Any thoughts anyone? I know it's all just speculation...but their relationship really intrigues me. ::) ;D
We've kindof touched on this here and there throughout the threads. Just a few random thoughts:
The relationship between Nat and Ann intrigues me too. I think I feel a bit sorry for Nat actually but I'm not sure why.
He and Ann genuinely seem to get on well together and have similar interests in books and prints. Maybe this is what first drew them to eachother. Presumably Nat met Ann though Granny Shepard as they both lived in Stephen Street.
I would LOVE to know what Ann looks like.
I don't think that Ann wanted marriage - nor did Nat. Their relationship seems more like a platonic friendship
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In my opinion k Nat wanted more than platonic even if they had similar interests- hence the drawers comment and the previous more suggestive comments made
Nesta
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In my opinion k Nat wanted more than platonic even if they had similar interests- hence the drawers comment and the previous more suggestive comments made
Nesta
Ooops, sorry Nesta, I mistakenly posted before finishing my sentence .... :-[
What I meant to say was ... their relationship must have started as a friendship (common interests etc) but I'd like to know at what point it 'progressed' ...
Everyone seems to know that they see each other. They have been caught out (when Ann was seen by ? leaving Nat's room). Nat hasn't made mention of anyone disapproving of their relationship ...
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Its Ok Ruskie ...........this is true - mind you it is a few years before he married so maybe something happened to Ann - we are having enough trouble finding her aren't we - so frustrating that we only have one year of his life !!! >:(
N
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Everyone seems to know that they see each other. They have been caught out (when Ann was seen by ? leaving Nat's room). Nat hasn't made mention of anyone disapproving of their relationship ...
It was Nat's mother and Mattie who saw her...but she was leaving in a hurry, as though she didn't want to be caught out.
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I wonder what Ann's life is like away from Nat - I imagine her as quite a lonely person.
Carole
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I wonder what Ann's life is like away from Nat - I imagine her as quite a lonely person.
Carole
yet....there have been days when she appears to have been too busy/doing other things than see Nat.
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Today, I replicated Nathaniel's walk to Hendon and ended with a pint in the Greyhound. And very welcome it was. I chickened out of walking back, however.
The route was rather different from Nathaniel's as I avoided main roads as far as possible and took in Regents Park, Primrose Hill, Hampstead Heath and one or two other parks. If any one wants the route, send a message and I will detail it. It took just a shade under three hours from Richmond Buildings to Hendon.
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That's a great picture Mongibello - what a lovely old pub, look at the size of the chimneys!
Westminster Archives put an 1867 picture of a street that NB walked down with today;s entry...amazing the difference a few cars make! :P
It always amazes me, the matter of fact way that NB notes disasterous events (hanging as another example) - he remarks on the fire almost offhand, yet if a fire like that took off in today's London, it would be HUGE news. I suppose in tose times, fires breaking out were really quite common.
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I love your photo Mongibello. It sounds like a really interesting walk .... wish I was there .... :( If you have the route handy, could you please post it here? I'm sure there are lots of us who would be interested. Probably a bit too short for Steven though. ;) ;D
Daisy the chimney's are amazing. It looks like a really nice area. I agree about the cars - they mess up every photo you try to take these days. Even looking at some of the old Frith postcards from the 1960's there are so few cars. How peaceful it must have been.
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I'll let everyone know when I and some others will be walking the Nathaniel Bryceson Memorial Walk and it will be super to have others join us! Peace, Steven.
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Just imagine people looking at that photo in 100 years time and arguing about what model that lovely old Ford is, and why the white van has such big windows, and what was that yellow thing for.
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Going a wee bit off-topic...but was that pub, Youngs always a pub? How stragically placed, right next door to a church!!!
lol@ Shaun and the "yellow thing" - but made me think that littler bins were probably not needed back in NB's time...no plastic wrappers - what garbage would one have on a walk/trek? An apple core? a paper bag perhaps?
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Young's is the name of the brewery Daisy ! The pub is the Greyhound.
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Returning to the topic of NB's relationship to Ann Fox ~ why, in today's entry does he write; Took a walk with Ann Fox........Why was that in italics? I have always felt that all aspects of his relationship with her were clandestine. Though I've no real idea about what he feels for her, at least part of his interest is physical. From her viewpoint, perhaps she enjoyed having someone who she could have an interesting conversation with or perhaps he was her "passport" so she could go beyond the confines of her home area.
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Here is the route Ruskie. Remember you did ask! I guess Nathaniel would have walked straight up Tottenham Court Road to Camden Town, Hampstead, Golders Green to Hendon.
Not wishing to walk on main roads all the way, I took a less direct route
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>:(
I just lost a message I was about to post ....
Thanks for that Mongibello. I will trace the journey via google maps (a lot less effort). Having said that, Steven, Iwould love to join you on an NB memorial walk if I was in England. Sadly I am not. (that's my excuse anyway ;))
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Today's entry is interesting if short. There is a lot on google about the Swiss Giantess (assuming there was only one ;)) She appears to have been born about 1801. Her name? :-\ A letter written in 1850 says she commited suicide by drowing, thought it doesn't say where or when ... :-\
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Just imagine people looking at that photo in 100 years time and arguing about what model that lovely old Ford is, and why the white van has such big windows, and what was that yellow thing for.
Very good point Shaun. ;D
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Today's entry is interesting if short. There is a lot on google about the Swiss Giantess (assuming there was only one ;)) She appears to have been born about 1801. Her name? :-\ A letter written in 1850 says she commited suicide by drowing, thought it doesn't say where or when ... :-\
Here's the letter
http://carlyleletters.dukejournals.org/cgi/content/full/25/1/lt-18500428-JWC-JAC-01
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The body of Eliza Lawrence alias Madame Litiz known as the Swiss Giantess was retrieved from the Thames near the Red House, Battersea on 7 October 1846 or thereabouts.
There was a piece of paper in her pocket which read " Number 9 Short's Gardens, Seven Dials. Knock twice and ask for Emma". Emma was duly located and identified the body.
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I bet Nathaniel will mention it when we get to October.
Where did you find that info?
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Where did you find that info?
There are extensive reports of the inquest in contemporary newspapers which can be accessed online via the Gale/BL 19th century newspaper database ( many public libraries such as Lancashire and Surrey offer free online access to this database to their members - I don't know about Northants Libraries but if not, you could try joining Lancashire)
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I'm very grateful to Lancashire Council for giving me free access to all the newspaper databases - I can't even get them in a Kent library let alone at home.
Anyway - the entry does show that Nat went back to his diary after the event to add to the entries.
Carole
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Uuuumm! Having re-read the entry, I see what you mean.. He says it was the last time he saw her, but didn't actually say 'because she died in October', which we know now
I've just joined the library!!
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Eliza Lawrence? I wonder why she was the "Swiss giantess"? The surname Lawrence doesn't sound very Swiss .... :-\
Good detective work Snowy and Carole. On first reading I didn't notice Nat's implication that the Swiss Giantess had died ... :(
I wonder if I can join Lancs library? ;D Some time ago I did join another UK library for access to Gale. They were fine with me joining even though I gave an Australian address ... I can't remember now but I think it may have been something to do with the licence that they decided to refuse access from other countries. :-\
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I guess Swiss simply sounded exotic at the time. Irish Giant was another popular one. You didn't make it to the top in showbiz when you were called plain Eliza Lawrence. Madame Litiz is much more mysterious and intriguing. ;)
Carole
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Burials in the Parish of Battersea, Surrey
1846
Elizabeth Lawrence
abode: Found drowned
Buried: October 12th
age: 51 years
:(
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Funnily enough I went to the Open House London thing today, and one of the places I stumbled across - mainly cos it happened to be near something else I set out to see - was the Old Mortuary at Rotherhithe. According to the tour they built it cos so many people were drowning in the Thames in the 19th century that they needed a special building to hold all the bodies they dredged from the river while they were waiting for them to be identified. Slight gruesome, but anyway it seemed topical to this thread.
I'm looking forward to tomorrow's update; Sundays are always the most interesting days for Nat.
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Nathaniel seems to have only one thing on his mind this Sunday 20th - and it's not Ann. ;)
But at least he was highly gratified. ;D
A lot to investigate from today's entry, and I love his remark about Granny Shepard. :)
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Nathaniel seems to have only one thing on his mind this Sunday 20th - and it's not Ann. ;)
I guess I'm a bit disappointed by that, although the rest of the entry more than made up.
But at least he was highly gratified. ;D
Heh I love the idea of him enjoying the Whitchurch tombs so much that he had to go back and take another look the same day. As has been said before; a strange lad...
The Church of St Lawrence, Little Stanmore (aka Whitchurch) is still standing thankfully:
http://www.little-stanmore.org/Building.shtml
Unlike the previous church Nat went too, this one definitely looks like it retains the original gate:
(http://www.gfhandel.org/images/gfhpictures/whitchurch2.jpg)
Shame Nat didn't carve on that one instead :P
EDIT: actually after typing this I read the description on that site again and the description of the church sounded strangely familiar. After a bit of thinking I remember that it was featured in an interesting doc about Handel that I saw on TV recently. By a stroke of luck, that section of the doc is on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQiUYiTgA5c
you should definitely give this a watch; I think after seeing it you'll see why Nat was so struck by the church interior.
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I've got lost in a maze of Brydges/Chandos/Chatfields/Osborns. A great grandaughter of the Ist Duke of Chandos, Mary Osborn who married Allen Chatfield dies 18 September 1761, so that might be her in the big coffin ???
I can't really comment on people going to view coffins as earlier this month I visited Hythe in Kent, where the church's main attraction is the crypt which is stacked high with medieval bones. Nat would have adored it ::)
Carole
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Drykid - Thank you! Somehow I missed the programme on Handel and if it wasn't so early in the morning and my brain not quite working yet I'd have realised Duke of Chandos = Handel's patron.
Not only is the interior of the church fabulous I've also got to hear a beautiful rendition of 'The flocks shall leave the mountains' form Acis and Galatea which I love ;D
Carole
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Was Dispatch the newspaper of the day?
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I had a look of the C19th Newspaper site - they only have 3 years worth of The London Dispatch, so if Nat is getting all his information about who died from it we can't see the editions of it that he was looking at:
London Dispatch
Audience: General
Publication Format: Newspaper
Full-Text Coverage: Sep 17, 1836 - Oct 06, 1839
Frequency: Weekly
Language: English
Place of Publication: London , England
Available Issues: 160
Carole
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This shows a picture of the monument of the duke and his two wives that Nat refers to - the vault is still there and like Nat, can be visited on a Sunday (saw this mentioned on another site, cant remember link now!)
http://www.dukesofbuckingham.org.uk/places/Whitchurch/whitchurch.htm
bottom of page
ps - this pic makes it look even grander
http://www.little-stanmore.org/Chandos.shtml
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I can't really comment on people going to view coffins as earlier this month I visited Hythe in Kent, where the church's main attraction is the crypt which is stacked high with medieval bones. Nat would have adored it ::)
Although he'd probably have helped himself to a souvenir... maybe a few ribs to go with the skull he already has.
Not only is the interior of the church fabulous I've also got to hear a beautiful rendition of 'The flocks shall leave the mountains' form Acis and Galatea which I love ;D
The whole 4-part series is worth seeing if it's ever on again - I missed the one on Purcell, but I saw the Handel and Haydn ones (and I still have then Mendelssohn one recorded for when I get round to seeing it.) Even if you're not that into the music, the presenter's enthusiasm for the subject really comes across (the subtitle "a personal exploration" is appropriate.) You get the impression that he'd be visiting the same places and talking to the same people even if there wasn't a camera there to record it all. It makes a change from the usual rent-a-celebrities they get to present most docs these days. It's also fun to watch him switch from interviewing and narrating one moment to conducting or (impressively) playing organ / piano in the next scene.
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This shows a picture of the monument of the duke and his two wives that Nat refers to - the vault is still there and like Nat, can be visited on a Sunday (saw this mentioned on another site, cant remember link now!)
http://www.dukesofbuckingham.org.uk/places/Whitchurch/whitchurch.htm
Thanks for the link - it really is a very exquisite church. Also it makes me wonder how much Nat actually knows in advance about these places he's visiting. I mean, he seems to know where he's heading (unless he just visits churches he stumbles across, and then writes them up as if he'd been heading there all along.) But in those days it wouldn't be easy to read about the history of the different churches, so maybe Nat was just expecting a normal parish church, and would've been completely surprised at what greeted him.
The letter linked to on that page is interesting; it's only written a year before Nat visited the church, and discusses the relative disarray of the coffins that Nat also commented on. Clearly then the attempt to get something done about it didn't bear fruit immediately.
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Hi everyone
Thanks for the great links on the Chandos family ... very grand.
I loved your photo Mongibello ...Thanks for that! It makes me very envious... I wish I could've done the walk with you!
deb
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Thought I would try to figure out who this child was:
"17 September 1846
Thursday
William Vandercombe’s (alias Whack, the cart carman at Wharf) wife confined this morning early with a daughter."
Found another child
St Pancras Parish Church, Camden
Ann Vandicomb bpt:1 June 1844, Great Edward St, R.P. (not sure what RP is?)
dad = William Vandicomb, coal porter
mum= Sarah Vandicomb
still looking for the daughter
William, 30 and Sarah, 30, Vandicom (transcribed as Vandican) are living at Cumberland Market, St Pancras in 1841. They had another child Joseph bpt 1841 ...no sign of him.
deb
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I can't really comment on people going to view coffins as earlier this month I visited Hythe in Kent, where the church's main attraction is the crypt which is stacked high with medieval bones. Nat would have adored it ::)
Although he'd probably have helped himself to a souvenir... maybe a few ribs to go with the skull he already has.
I think that the skull Nathaniel helped himself to was later wasn't it?.
I must say that the Kent church you visited sounds fascinating Carole - just the kind of place I would like. :)
I also had some thoughts about the churches that Nat visits - they all seem to be so picturesque, ancient and generally interesting. I think he planned his jaunts and made a point of visiting unique churches or those with a particular attraction.
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Hi Deb! ;)
I only found Joseph, son of William and Sarah Vandercombe. I suspected the surname may have been misspelled which is the reason I couldn't find the new daughter. Maybe this birth is another of those that are not on Ancestry? :-\
I've just had a look at St Lawrence Whitchurch, I can see how this must have been such a magnet for Nathaniel. It's very impressive. I thought it was very funny that he revisited the church later in the day.
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I think that the skull Nathaniel helped himself to was later wasn't it?.
Yeah it was in 1848, but in my hypothetical scenario Nat visited Carole's church after 1848. Of course there's an infinite number of other possible scenarios, but I'll leave those for others to worry about :)
On the subject of the stolen skull, I visited St Pancras Old Church the other week. It's an interesting place; was it mentioned here that at that time the person in charge of the relocation of the old graves due to the railway encroachment was no less than the novelist Thomas Hardy? (There's a plaque about it all underneath what's known as the Hardy tree.) I have a mental image of Nat making his getaway chased by a furious Thomas Hardy, although doubtless in reality it happened while Nat was the only one there.
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This is from "The London of Dickens":
From Coram Street we turn left along Hunter
Street, which continues into Judd Street, and at
No. 78 on the right is Cromer Street, where at
No. 116 we find the Boot Tavern on the site of the
old " Boot " of Barnaby Rudge.
As they were thirsty by this time, Dennis
proposed that they should repair together to
the Boot, where there was good company and
strong liquor.
I wonder if this is where Nathaniel had his 'bread and beef'?
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Birth; Martha Vandercomb reg St Pancras Sep Q 1842
Deaths; Joseph Vandercow reg St Pancras Dec 1842
Elizabeth Vandercombe reg Marylebone Mar Q 1847
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Freebmd could only come up with these for the daughter??
Births Sep 1846
Vandergucht Female Chelsea 3 65
Vanderpump Mary Ann Shoreditch 2 451
Venters Ellen Lucy Shoreditch 2 375
Births Mar 1847
Vandersteen Eliza Bethnal Gn 2 2
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On the subject of the stolen skull, I visited St Pancras Old Church the other week. It's an interesting place; was it mentioned here that at that time the person in charge of the relocation of the old graves due to the railway encroachment was no less than the novelist Thomas Hardy? (There's a plaque about it all underneath what's known as the Hardy tree.) I have a mental image of Nat making his getaway chased by a furious Thomas Hardy, although doubtless in reality it happened while Nat was the only one there.
I have seen pictures of the Hardy Tree and I knew that the graves were relocated but I didn't know that Thomas Hardy was the man in charge. :) I'm curious as to how he got that job - I will google ... ;)
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Hmm I just googled myself, and it seems from the dates that Hardy got the job some time after Nat's little adventure (given that Hardy was born in 1840 it's not surprising.) Shame about that, I liked the idea of the two meeting unknowingly. I guess the churchyard must've been in a bad state for quite an extended period of time.
It was definitely Thomas Hardy the writer though.
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Hi Ruskie
:D :D
I am sure it's misspelled ...can't find William and Sarah's marriage neither.
Unless it's the William Vandersom = Sarah Hope 1838 ::) :-\ :-\
deb
ooo 5 red posts ;D
another one :o
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Yes it was that Thomas Hardy. :) He was an assistant architect at the time ... sounds like an interesting job:
throughout the late autumn and early winter ... Hardy attended at the churchyard — each evening between five and six, as well as sometimes at other hours. There after nightfall, within a high hoarding that could not be overlooked, and by the light of flare-lamps, the exhumation went on continuously of the coffins that had been uncovered during the day, new coffins being provided for those that came apart in lifting, and for loose skeletons; and those that held together being carried to the new ground on board merely; Hardy supervised these mournful processions when present, with what thoughts may be imagined.
It seems he wrote a few poems which may have been influenced by this experience.
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Hi Ruskie
I am sure it's misspelled ...can't find William and Sarah's marriage neither.
Unless it's the William Vandersom = Sarah Hope 1838 ::) :-\ :-\
deb
Looks possible. If I remember correctly there is only the one likely William with a surname that sounds anything like Vandercombe.
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Hi Ruskie
:D :D
I am sure it's misspelled ...can't find William and Sarah's marriage neither.
Unless it's the William Vandersom = Sarah Hope 1838 ::) :-\ :-\
deb
ooo 5 red posts ;D
another one :o
Sarah Vandercom married I think in 1842 in Westminster (I've closed Freebmd down). Of course William and Sarah could have married anywhere and anytime.
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I've just been looking over some books which have been in my possession for some years. They belonged to my great grandfather, Leo Bryceson, NB's grandson via his youngest son Henry. There is a completer set of Charles Dickins' works, a seperate book by Charles Dickins called "The Life of our Lord" given by Henry Bryceson to my Nan in 1934 and with a lovely inscription from HB and also a book called Wonders of Phycisal Science given by HB to Leo. This was in 1911 when NB was still alive. The inscription reads: "To H L Bryceson from Dad 5th January 1911 - Wishing you many happy returns of the day and trusting the perusal will add to your knowledge". As you can see, a love of books runs in the family!
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The entry about the skull was dated Sunday, 2 January, 1848. It was a single quote from Nat's diary by another writer:
http://www.archive.org/stream/s11notesqueries10londuoft/s11notesqueries10londuoft_djvu.txt
Search for "JarCry" :)
Paul
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Here's the fragment:
OLD ST. PANCRAS CHURCH. It is hoped
the appeal for funds to restore this much-
mutilated church will be successful, as it is
possible some of the harm done in previous
restorations by incongruous additions may
be made good.
The greatest harm was done in 1848, when
it was largely rebuilt. The following ex-
cerpt from Nathaniel Bryceson's Diary
indicates, however, that some work for its
preservation was necessary :
" Sunday, 2 JarCry, 1848.
" .... before coming home I walk'd round to
see old St. Pancras Church, or rather what is left
of it. The Tower is now totally removed, and
some of the Church and the Vestry room too
have disappeared, about the foundation of which
[sic ? the church] and near to some brick vaults
as I was prowling I discovered a Human Skull
in pretty fair preservation, which I hurriedly
wrapped in my handkerchief and made off as
precipitately as an hungry Cat possessed of its
meat, but not without some feeling of fear of
discovery which might have caused a little un-
pleasantness, but which I evaded [sic] and [arrived]
back home with my prize under my arm, and
deposited it in my box unbeknown to poor old
Dame Granny Shepard. It is in rather a filthy
state and will want cleaning. My object in
possessing this is to view myself [in] time to
come. It may be beneficial in checking any
feelings of pride which at times may arise."
ALECK ABRAHAMS.
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Yes it was that Thomas Hardy. :) He was an assistant architect at the time ... sounds like an interesting job:
throughout the late autumn and early winter ... Hardy attended at the churchyard — each evening between five and six, as well as sometimes at other hours. There after nightfall, within a high hoarding that could not be overlooked, and by the light of flare-lamps, the exhumation went on continuously of the coffins that had been uncovered during the day, new coffins being provided for those that came apart in lifting, and for loose skeletons; and those that held together being carried to the new ground on board merely; Hardy supervised these mournful processions when present, with what thoughts may be imagined.
It seems he wrote a few poems which may have been influenced by this experience.
My grandfather (aged about 12) took part in those exhumations. There have been more in recent times due to the work for the new Channel Tunnel rail link to St Pancras.
I am afraid there does not seem to be a decent route to Edgware. Nathaniel would have walked straight up the Edgware Road from Tyburn (Marble Arch) The alternative would be to walk to Hendon and continue to Edgware, about another three & a half miles.
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Yes it was that Thomas Hardy. :) He was an assistant architect at the time ... sounds like an interesting job:
throughout the late autumn and early winter ... Hardy attended at the churchyard — each evening between five and six, as well as sometimes at other hours. There after nightfall, within a high hoarding that could not be overlooked, and by the light of flare-lamps, the exhumation went on continuously of the coffins that had been uncovered during the day, new coffins being provided for those that came apart in lifting, and for loose skeletons; and those that held together being carried to the new ground on board merely; Hardy supervised these mournful processions when present, with what thoughts may be imagined.
It seems he wrote a few poems which may have been influenced by this experience.
My grandfather (aged about 12) took part in those exhumations. There have been more in recent times due to the work for the new Channel Tunnel rail link to St Pancras.
How interesting. :) Do you know how your grandfather came to be involved in this? Did he meet Thomas Hardy?
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I've just been looking over some books which have been in my possession for some years. They belonged to my great grandfather, Leo Bryceson, NB's grandson via his youngest son Henry. There is a completer set of Charles Dickins' works, a seperate book by Charles Dickins called "The Life of our Lord" given by Henry Bryceson to my Nan in 1934 and with a lovely inscription from HB and also a book called Wonders of Phycisal Science given by HB to Leo. This was in 1911 when NB was still alive. The inscription reads: "To H L Bryceson from Dad 5th January 1911 - Wishing you many happy returns of the day and trusting the perusal will add to your knowledge". As you can see, a love of books runs in the family!
I don't suppose you have any that may have been owned by Nathaniel? :D
I was a bit cynical after watching many episodes of Who Do You Think You Are where celebrities are trying desperately to match up a profession, an interest or a personality trait with one of their ancestors, but maybe I was wrong. There seem to be an uncanny amount of parallels/similarities between Nataniel and his descendants,even generations later (as in your case Steven). ;D
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Hello all - just a quick bookmark as my notifications seem to have stopped and if I click notify it ask me if I want to cancel.
Goodnight
Nesta
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I've just been looking over some books which have been in my possession for some years. They belonged to my great grandfather, Leo Bryceson, NB's grandson via his youngest son Henry. There is a completer set of Charles Dickins' works, a seperate book by Charles Dickins called "The Life of our Lord" given by Henry Bryceson to my Nan in 1934 and with a lovely inscription from HB and also a book called Wonders of Phycisal Science given by HB to Leo. This was in 1911 when NB was still alive. The inscription reads: "To H L Bryceson from Dad 5th January 1911 - Wishing you many happy returns of the day and trusting the perusal will add to your knowledge". As you can see, a love of books runs in the family!
That's a lovely find Steven :) I remember finding a book gifted to my grandfather, when he was just 5 years old, and that was in 1920, and I felt amazed to be handling such a book. I have it now (my mother kindly gave it to me) and I read the same book to my own children. (Also with an inscription)
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William & Sarah Vandicom's daughter born in 1846 would be Emma and in 1861 she is showing as born Pimlico. Lots of name variations.
1841 Census - Market Cumberland, St. Pancras, Mdx.
Wm Vandican 30 carman
Sarah Vandican 30
both born in county
William Vandecomb age 46 of Lower Sloane St. buried Feb 18th, 1851
1851 St. Lukes, Chelsea
1851 Census - 67 George St., Chelsea, Mdx
Sarah Vandecomb widow 40
William Vandecomb 12
Emma Vandecomb 4
Ann Vandecomb 7 (there's Ann born 1844 you found Deb to help clinche the family. Think R.P. = Regent's Park)
Mary Rutland 45
(all born Chelsea)
1861 Census has sarah & Emma lodging with the Taylor family at 78 Queens Rd <---?>, Chelsea, Mdx
Sarah Vandicomb widow 52 born St. Pancras charwoman
Emma Vandicomb 16 born Pimlico house servant
Linda
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Thanks for all that, Linda :D
I had seen Sarah with children in 1851 but could not fit William age 12. Surely William should have been with William and Sarah in 1841. ::)
Or is William actually Joseph who was bpt 1841. :-\
deb
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Your welcome Deb, putting it together with yours helped. :)
Age is off for William being Joseph, but still a possibility. Maybe William's with another family member at time of census. I've had this happen more than once and also had the first born going by the second name.
Linda
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Reply to Ruskie re my grandfather. He may have got the job because the family were stonemasons and perhaps gt grandfather had contacts with the church or the undertakers. Most of my paternal ancestors were hatched, matched or despatched in one or other of the St Pancras Churches.
Incidentally the Old Boot pub, which NB mentions in his trip to Edgware, survived until 1965. If you are looking at google maps it was on the North East corner of the Junction of the High Street and Station Road.
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I'm amused by today's entry with the pipe; it seems like the kind of amusing mishap that someone might write in their diary today. Or two hundred years before Nat, for that matter. It's very timeless.
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And there was me thinking all the broken bits of pipe I've dug up in the garden were broken by accident. Now I'll be imagining one old Ag Lab saying to another 'Look 'ere this old pipe 'o mine is so tough I can chuck it at that rock and it won't break' and the other saying 'bet you tuppence it does' It does break. Ag Lab one is tuppence down and goes home to Mrs Ag Lab who then give him an earful for losing tuppence and wanting to buy a new pipe when they haven't got enough money to support all the 23 little Ag Labs as it is. ;)
Carole
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I like today's entry too. I wonder if it was his own pipe? Is Nathaniel a smoker? :)
Today's equivalent?:
My (foolish >:() daughter did with something similar "to show the hardness" of her mobile phone. :-\ Luckily it was not "a sorry job". ;)
(PS. Thanks for the information about your Grandfather Mongibello :))
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hehe - so...according to Ancestry, on this day in history 23rd September 1846 (so same day that NB was aimlessly throwing pipe to see how hard it was!), French astronomer Urbain Jean Joseph Le Verrier & British astronomer John Couch Adams discovered Neptune! I wonder if NB will comment on that in the next few days, if it made the news at all?!
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Thursday
Sent a ton of coals from Wharf to Mrs Mitchell, first floor lodger
???
Isn't that an awful lot of coal to send to a lodger?
(Or maybe it was one of those pranks like when you order a truck load of gravel to be dumped in someone's driveway.) ;D
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I thought the same :)
When i was a child, my grandparents used to have coal delivered for their coal fire, The 2up 2down house had a stairway in the middle of the house, and the coal was put into this understair cupboard. This meant a mucky coalman walking halfway into the house, not ideal. I think nan had about half a dozen sacks at a time. A sack was a hundredweight, which would be 1/20th of a ton. So, lodger would have had 20 sacks for a ton - perhaps a bulk buy at good price pre winter? Esp as the yard had bank issues - perhaps Nat was doing a bit of sales work @ home?
Thursday
Sent a ton of coals from Wharf to Mrs Mitchell, first floor lodger
???
Isn't that an awful lot of coal to send to a lodger?
(Or maybe it was one of those pranks like when you order a truck load of gravel to be dumped in someone's driveway.) ;D
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It did make me think - as it was what you'd call now, a building of multiple occupancy, just how they did organise all the coal? Did each separate household have their own little heap of it in the cellar? Did people steal other peoples coal, or did they keep it in their own rooms? Obviously you couldn't keep a ton of the stuff in your room!
Carole
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I thought the same :)
When i was a child, my grandparents used to have coal delivered for their coal fire, The 2up 2down house had a stairway in the middle of the house, and the coal was put into this understair cupboard. This meant a mucky coalman walking halfway into the house, not ideal. I think nan had about half a dozen sacks at a time. A sack was a hundredweight, which would be 1/20th of a ton. So, lodger would have had 20 sacks for a ton - perhaps a bulk buy at good price pre winter? Esp as the yard had bank issues - perhaps Nat was doing a bit of sales work @ home?
It helps that you've explained it that way Steve. I suppose getting 20 sacks delivered isn't as unreasonable as I imagined. Maybe it was to share with others in the building. I'd love to know where everyone kept their coal too Carole.
Isn't it amazing how such a simple little comment by Nathaniel opens up a conversation and gets us all thinking about these practical day to day events from 1846 that are so alien to many of us today. :)
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Perhaps Mrs Mitchel's husband or even the lady herself had a horse and cart and went round the streets like a rag and bone man, selling coal by the bucketful. I imagine there were plenty of people in those days who had to buy coal in very small quantities.
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Perhaps Mrs Mitchel's husband or even the lady herself had a horse and cart and went round the streets like a rag and bone man, selling coal by the bucketful. I imagine there were plenty of people in those days who had to buy coal in very small quantities.
Yes that's possible.
This is what really interest me about history - all the little everyday things that made up everyone's lives.
Carole
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Perhaps Mrs Mitchel's husband or even the lady herself had a horse and cart and went round the streets like a rag and bone man, selling coal by the bucketful. I imagine there were plenty of people in those days who had to buy coal in very small quantities.
That makes perfect sense. :)
I wish Nat had told us where Mrs Mitchell lived. As he was so brief I wonder if she lived at Richmond Buildings? :-\ It just seems a bit odd to me that he should say she was a 'first floor lodger' - Why is this significant?
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Hi all
Looked for Mrs Mitchell ...In 1851 she is by herself with 3 children in Richmond Buildings.
I believe Mrs Mitchell is Eliza Simpson who married George Mitchell, a plasterer, in 1843. He is from Huntingdon and seems to stay a plasterer all his life.
1851
9 Richmond Bldgs
Eliza Mitchell mar 36 b Middlesex
George T son 6 b ditto
D Elizabeth dau 4 b ditto
William J son 2 b ditto
George, bc 1820, the husband, is visiting in Berkshire in 1851.
I was hoping she, Mrs Mitchell, was Ann/Eliza Thomas ... Mary Shepard Bryceson Ward's friend who pops in with food.
deb
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Hi Deb! Just as I suspected. ;)
I was just about to try to look Mrs Mitchell up but you beat me to it - lucky I checked first. ;D
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Hi Ruskie
ESP! ;D
The daughter has quite a name :
Deaines Elizabeth Mitchell, bpt 13 Dec 1846, born; 15 Nov 1846
parents; George, plasterer and Eliza, of Richmond Buildings
St Pancras Parish Church, Camden
can't find the boys' baptisms ::)
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Being on the first floor, (next one up from the ground for our American cousins) or even the second - where WOULD they store their coal. If it was down in the cellar, it meant a lot of running up and down.
Still, I guess that was standard in any multi-storey building back then.
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A ton of coal ... :o
Wonder what the weather was like that winter.
Eliza Mitchell would have had a young son and also have been heavily pregnant with Deanis ...hopefully her husband was home to get the coal from the coal bunker.
When I was young and living in Devon I remember we had a room (ground floor) with a coal bunker in it...my dad also used the room to hang up the pheasants and rabbits he caught ...arrgghhhhh :-X :(
Under the stairs was a box where we had to put in shillings to keep the electricity going .
deb
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Both my parents, and my grandparents had coal bunkers outside in the backgardens, but these were semi detached houses, not temenant buildings.
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Found this ...it seems that Mrs Mitchell may have ordered too much coal:
The winter of 1846, remarkable for extraordinary mildness
from: Journal of the Royal Statistical Society, Volume 12
at the same time in Ireland: :'( :'( :'(
The Irish Famine: The Winter of 1846 to 1847
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/famine/whig_1846_1847.html
In the Spring of 1846, the people had planted even more potatoes than ever before to ensure that there was no repeat of the 1845 failure. However, in July the Relief Commission sent a report to England stating "I am sorry to state that... the prospect of the potato crop this year is even more distressing than last year- that the disease has appeared earlier and its ravages are more extensive" [2]. As it was to turn out, the crop of Autumn [Fall] 1846 had failed completely across the island.
I wonder if Nat read anything about the poor, starving Irish people?
deb
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Both my parents, and my grandparents had coal bunkers outside in the backgardens, but these were semi detached houses, not temenant buildings.
Terraces with a yard also had them - wasn't there a hole in the back wall for the coal to be put through? The outhouse was there too. ;)
I wonder about the toilet and personal and clothes washing facilities in these multiple occupancy dwellings. All communal I expect. :-\ And chamber pots for calls of nature during the night .... possibly emptying them into public drains each morning?
I do admit to a hankering for many aspects of the past but there are a few comforts I would not like to do without.
I suppose there would be buckets of coal kept indoors which would last for a certain amount of time, then they would just fetch more from downstairs. As a lot of the tennants of Richmond Buildings just rented rooms surely there wouldn't be a seperate 'bunker' for each tennant to store their coal. I can't see that the tennants would share the ton of coal - they couldn't be trusted to take the correct amount.
I can't imagine how large a ton of coal would be. :-\
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Found this ...it seems that Mrs Mitchell may have ordered too much coal:
The winter of 1846, remarkable for extraordinary mildness
from: Journal of the Royal Statistical Society, Volume 12
Actually it was probably a wise buy - I think the mild winter referred to there is the one just gone in terms of Nat's diary. And in fact Nat made at least one mention earlier in the diary to the exceptionally mild winter, which backs that up.
If you look at this (http://hadobs.metoffice.com/hadcet/ssn_HadCET_mean.txt) table, you can see that while 1846 was a far milder Winter than 1847, the notes at the top make it clear that 1846 on that table refers to the year that January falls in when it comes to discussing winter temps. (I know the data is for Central England not London, but I'm guessing when you average it out over a whole season then the trends will be similar.)
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I wonder about the toilet and personal and clothes washing facilities in these multiple occupancy dwellings. All communal I expect. :-\ And chamber pots for calls of nature during the night .... possibly emptying them into public drains each morning?
I do admit to a hankering for many aspects of the past but there are a few comforts I would not like to do without.
You might stop hankering when you scroll down to the second half of this page: http://www.makingthemodernworld.org.uk/stories/the_industrial_town/06.ST.02/?scene=3
:o
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OOoer! That's pretty ghastly!
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It was a miracle anyone survived living in London - I still keep thinking of Nat swimming quite happily in the Thames :o
Carole
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I wonder about the toilet and personal and clothes washing facilities in these multiple occupancy dwellings. All communal I expect. :-\ And chamber pots for calls of nature during the night .... possibly emptying them into public drains each morning?
I do admit to a hankering for many aspects of the past but there are a few comforts I would not like to do without.
You might stop hankering when you scroll down to the second half of this page: http://www.makingthemodernworld.org.uk/stories/the_industrial_town/06.ST.02/?scene=3
:o
Paragraph 2 sounds like the sort of thing that is happening today. :-\
No, I'm still hankering, but I didn't say I was hankering to be an inner city dweller. I see myself more in an upper class country estate kind of way. :P Don't we all many of us?
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I'm with you Ruskie - although I'd like to have been born a little earlier - around 1750 would be fine. I honestly think the only thing I'd really miss would be antibiotics. My Dad spent the first 20 years of his life in the 1920s/30s on the family's farm with no electricity, water drawn from the well which had "little things" swimming in it and the loo was a bucket system which had to be emptied onto the farm's dung heap but he survived perfectly well. Although they were quite modern in other ways, as his mother drove a car and used to go into town to do a main shop once a week.
Carole
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Sort of on the same subject but a little off topic ... today my sister was teling me about a guy who suffered from many immune disorders, took himself off to Africa to run around in animal poo so he'd catch worms, and now he is cured. He's now selling 'patches' which he claims will do the same thing. Not sure I believe anyone who decides to sell their story and their product, but I still think there may be some truth in this. Maybe swimming in the filthy old Thames did Nathaniel a lot of good. He lived to a fair age. ;D
Your Dad had a well? That's luxury! ;D My Dad lived in a tent with a dirt floor, and his mother cooked outside over an open fire.
There are quite a few mod cons I'd miss, but there is an awful lot I would love about living in earlier times ... :) I have a bit of a soft spot for all things Medieval though I'm not sure I'd cope too well living that far back.
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lol at the well comment -
guys...shock horror....our water TODAY comes from a well!!!! the modern addition, being a couple of pumps along the way to get it into our tanks. But it is nice to know that it is pure spring water. (Although after a heavy rainfall, can be a bit brackish!!!)
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[quote
You might stop hankering when you scroll down to the second half of this page: http://www.makingthemodernworld.org.uk/stories/the_industrial_town/06.ST.02/?scene=3
:o
I would have thought this bit of the text in that link would have got in the diary :)
Such problems could occasionally be dramatically dangerous. In 1846 the river Walbrook in London, which was covered over by buildings and unventilated, harboured such a quantity of noxious gases that it exploded – producing a tidal wave of sewage that swept away three houses in nearby Clerkenwell.
I would expect a ton of coal to be about 5 cubic feet - ish. A hundredweight sack could be carried on a back.
With regard to how discussion comes from the diary.... i have learned many diverse things from the entries, looking them and other related issues up as they appear. For example, i can bore the heck out of people by telling them Victoria Station used to be a basin :)
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Such problems could occasionally be dramatically dangerous. In 1846 the river Walbrook in London, which was covered over by buildings and unventilated, harboured such a quantity of noxious gases that it exploded – producing a tidal wave of sewage that swept away three houses in nearby Clerkenwell.
:o
Another historically interesting entry today. Nathaniel is a very widely read young lad. I wouldn't think there'd be too may 20 year olds taking an interst in such things today.
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I would expect a ton of coal to be about 5 cubic feet - ish. A hundredweight sack could be carried on a back.
That doesn't make it sound quite so bad. Does anyone know how much coal is used for a real fire and how long it lasts?
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With regard to how discussion comes from the diary.... i have learned many diverse things from the entries, looking them and other related issues up as they appear. For example, i can bore the heck out of people by telling them Victoria Station used to be a basin :)
It's fascinating how the area has changed over the years. One thing I bought recently as a result of taking more interest in Victorian London due to Nat's diary is a second hand copy of this brilliant book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Liquid-History-Thames-Through-Time/dp/0713488344
It's basically the story of the Thames from West through to East, and how it's changed over the years, but the main appeal is the beautiful photographs (one per page, reproduced in really nice quality.) A few of them are modern photos, but the majority date from the second half of the 19th century and the first half of the last one. There's no photos of the Ecclestone Wharf area (possibly because it was on Grosvenor Canal rather than the Thames itself), but there are lots of photos of other wharfs on the river itself dating from around the same time. I know books of Victorian photos aren't particularly unusual, but this one is a bit different because it concentrates solely on the river. And therefore the pictures give a real feel for the kind of working environment Nat would have been used to. I wish I could scan a few shots for here, but that's probably a big no-no. Also there's so many cool photos that I wouldn't know where to start. But it's well worth getting, especially if you can snag a copy on eBay for 99p (!) like I did.
Anyway one of the fascinating things for me is seeing how much the Thames Embankment through central London has drastically altered the locations beyond recognition. Before this was built in the late 19th Century most of central London had houses and buildings going down to the edges of the Thames itself, but obviously these locations were changed beyond recognition once they built the massive embankment on either side, with vast amounts of buildings and even whole streets disappearing. And seeing photos of familiar locations from before its construction really emphasises that.
Anyway Sunday today, so I look forward to Nat's usual sex, stalking and graveyard update tomorrow :P
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Anyway Sunday today, so I look forward to Nat's usual sex, stalking and graveyard update tomorrow :P
and this is 1846 !! but so do I :o
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Hi Everyone
Great discussion and links ...makes me very grateful for bathrooms and toilets 8)
I found this the other day:
The Post-Office London Directory, 1829
Charles Lea, Coal merchant, Regent's Park Basin
I think this is Granny Shepard's brother and George Lea's father.
deb
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Should have expressed that better - i meant 5 x 5 x 5 feet cube = 125 cubic feet. :-\ - might be a little less as coal has a specific gravity of 1.5 - if it was 1 then it would be 1 metre cube for a ton. But there is the voiding (air) as its not an interlocking solid mass. Not an exact science
Regarding the london embankment, that was built by joseph bazelgette for the london sewer system, still in use today. The project and bazelgette was featured in a BBC program - i think it was called something like seven wonders of the modern world. I found it fascinating and Bazelgette was unknown to me at the time - kinda introduced him to me as an unsung Brunel.
Crossness pumping station looks amazing inside - like a cathedral of steam. Im an engineer, strange stuff interests me :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_sewerage_system
I would expect a ton of coal to be about 5 cubic feet - ish. A hundredweight sack could be carried on a back.
That doesn't make it sound quite so bad. Does anyone know how much coal is used for a real fire and how long it lasts?
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Late evening here in the USA ... have just read Nat's entry ...as usual he is walking and perusing...
Nat is an interesting guy ... I have never met a 20 year old man who loves what he loves to do!!!!
Mrs S is not mentioned ...has he lost interest in her?
No mention of his mum or her illness, no mention of Granny Shepard or his cousin George Lea ...and where is ANN FOX these days ??
I think I will be quite lost when his diary ends, especially if we have no idea of what happened to Ann .... and Mrs S.
deb
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Should have expressed that better - i meant 5 x 5 x 5 feet cube = 125 cubic feet. :-\ - might be a little less as coal has a specific gravity of 1.5 - if it was 1 then it would be 1 metre cube for a ton. But there is the voiding (air) as its not an interlocking solid mass. Not an exact science
:P
Would you mind repeating that?
No, no please don't.
I have no idea what you're talking about, but I believe you. ;)
That pumping station looks absolutely amazing. I think I saw something about it on TV in the dim and distant past - it rings a bell.
Hi Deb! I was a bit disappointed with the lack of italics in today's post. ;) Maybe Ann had to work? .... or .... Do you think she may have other male friends? I'm sure Nat is still interested in both Ann and Mrs S. He mentioned Mrs S a week or so ago? :-\
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My husband has just gone off to Bromley today - he works there. ;D
Carole
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The church in question:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Peter_and_St_Paul,_Bromley
(Not that it took much finding, but it saves anyone else the trouble...)
Apparently pretty much everything but the tower was destroyed in WWII and an essentially-new church erected in its place. However the monument to Johnson's wife survived and was transferred there. Incidentally the inscription referred to by Nat reads "Formosae, cultae, ingeniosae, piae" ("beautiful, elegant, talented, dutiful.") I wonder if Nat would actually have been able to read Latin (I know I can't, in case it appears I'm being patronising.) But he doesn't actually say whether or not he understood the inscription, just that he was grateful to have seen it.
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I'd be surprised if Nat's education included Latin, but who can say? He must have had a reasonable grounding somewhere.
I only found out how much of Bromley church was lost when I sent my OH there in his lunch hour to look for a memorial to a Joseph Shrimpton but it had gone.
Dr. Johnson had an odd ( what else would you expect?) relationship with his wife Tetty - but the learned gentleman has not gone entirely. I am not a Tweeter but I do know that he still communicates with us mere mortals through the medium of Twitter http://twitter.com/drsamueljohnson
Carole
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Nat has only seen Ann Fox once since he managed to get her drawers off, and that was for a sedate walk over Westminster bridge. Is she avoiding him, maybe? Fed up that he only seems to be interested in 'one thing'? Or has she gone on holiday somewhere, and isn't around? Do we know what she does, or is she a lady of leisure? I have to say it did occur to me that the name Ann Fox might be a pseudonym for her own protection, and if that's the case we'll never find out anything more about her.
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Ref Bazalgette & the London Sewage system, Anyone interested should read "The Great Stink of London" by Stephen Halliday, subtitled "Sir Joseph Bazalgette and the cleansing of the Victorian metropolis."
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Nat has only seen Ann Fox once since he managed to get her drawers off, and that was for a sedate walk over Westminster bridge. Is she avoiding him, maybe? Fed up that he only seems to be interested in 'one thing'? Or has she gone on holiday somewhere, and isn't around? Do we know what she does, or is she a lady of leisure? I have to say it did occur to me that the name Ann Fox might be a pseudonym for her own protection, and if that's the case we'll never find out anything more about her.
We only know a little about Ann Fox> This is from Deb back in Part 2:
1841
St Pancras
STEPHEN STREET
Lots of people all living in seperate "rooms?"
including:
SOPHIA OLLIVE 50 DRESSMAKER Y
ANN FOX 30 F S , yes
(refer to diary and mention of Mrs. Olive)
1851
27 Stephen Street
Cock Family
John BURNS
Mary Elizth KENNINGTON, unm 63, mangling , b Middlesex, St James, Picadilly
ANN FOX, 49, Charwoman, b Middlesex, Queen St
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I found this the other day:
The Post-Office London Directory, 1829
Charles Lea, Coal merchant, Regent's Park Basin
I think this is Granny Shepard's brother and George Lea's father.
deb
Yes, it looks like him. :) So the Lea family had been in London for many years. It still makes me wonder if Granny Shepard had some wealth. She doesn't appear to (well Nat never mentions her having money, but nor does he mention that she is hard up). I wonder if it is the Lea family who are helping pay for Nat's mother's medical treatment? We also speculated that they may have helped with Nathaniel's education.
We don't know whether Nathaniel had a formal education. If so, would it have included learning Latin? He is so obsessed with collecting Inscriptions that I would imagine that he would either understand some or all of those written in Latin, or he may have the means or knowledge to translate.
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I only found out how much of Bromley church was lost when I sent my OH there in his lunch hour to look for a memorial to a Joseph Shrimpton but it had gone.
Carole
And how did he feel about you sending him on this errand in his lunch hour? ;D
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Bromley Colege:
http://www.bromleycollege.org/history.htm
and Bromley Palace:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromley_Palace
:)
Gee Nat visits some really interesting places. He seems to know exactly where he's going and what he wants to see each Sunday (probably spends all week planning ;))
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I only found out how much of Bromley church was lost when I sent my OH there in his lunch hour to look for a memorial to a Joseph Shrimpton but it had gone.
Carole
And how did he feel about you sending him on this errand in his lunch hour? ;D
He's used to that kind of thing - I've got him well trained ;D
You forget that Bromley actually has a history and some interesting buildings - really today it's just a place to go shopping.
Carole
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I'd be surprised if Nat's education included Latin, but who can say? He must have had a reasonable grounding somewhere.
He did buy the 1761 Ainsworth’s ‘Latin-English and English-Latin Dictionary’ ... designed for the use of the British nationals in May. http://www.rootschat.com/links/09l8/
Linda
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I'd be surprised if Nat's education included Latin, but who can say? He must have had a reasonable grounding somewhere.
He did buy the 1761 Ainsworth’s ‘Latin-English and English-Latin Dictionary’ ... designed for the use of the British nationals in May. http://www.rootschat.com/links/09l8/
Linda
Good remembering Linda. ;D
I wish my OH was as well trained as yours Carole - not that there's much here for him to (be sent on errands to) check out for me, mores the pity.
Very disappointing that there is no diary entry for today. I wonder how many more blanks we have till the end of the year? I can't recall the exact number but here are an awful lot of them .... mores the pity. :(
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Well, that is a new bit of info for me...
My father was born and grew up in Bromley. My great-grandfather had a hairdressing shop there! (Sadly a bit after Nat's time!!) and I never knew it was only 10 miles (as the crow flies) or 12 miles (by today's routes) from Soho/London!
And...interestingly...the route today would probably be via Lewisham.
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I LOVE today's entry - so fab to have a relative living the history of London! I have been to Wellington Arch and read all the info on the statue, but how wonderful to have it from my 3x great grandfather's perspective! Peace and joy, Steven.
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I remember Nathaniel mentioning this earlier in the year.
Aspley House:
http://golondon.about.com/od/thingstodoinlondon/fr/aspleyhouse.htm
(Not a bad shack ;)) I must make a point of visiting one day. ;D
And some controversy:
http://oaj.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/2/173.abstract
I felt a bit disappointed that Nat had to go back to work and missed the arrival of the statue.
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Nats report of 29 horses is backed up by the wikipedia article on the statue.
So, from grand installation, to removing it and effectively dumping it on the army at Aldershot took less than 40 years. Its kinda tucked out of the way amoung trees now, and was unmaintained for years until major works approx 5 years ago.
Not much of a way to remember and honor a hero is it?
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Yes, Steven, you are very lucky to have that. It really does help you see history in another way doesn't it?
Yet another half hour slides by while I read up on Wellington, the Arch, the statue etc etc! :P
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Yes, Steven, you are very lucky to have that. It really does help you see history in another way doesn't it?
Yet another half hour slides by while I read up on Wellington, the Arch, the statue etc etc! :P
I did exactly the same thing early this morning Daisy Loo ;D ;D
Hi Steven .... I think it's fab too!!!
deb
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Dear all,
On Tuesday I a nd some others will be meeting at Green Park Tube Station ticket barriers at 10am and will be do the following NB Memorial Walk. If you are a brisk walker, feel free to join us!
Peace,
Steven.
The route description is Green Park Station Mayfair Grosvenor Square Marylebone (coffee break) Regents Park, Primrose Hill, Parliament Hill (if we can find it), Hampshire Heath, The Spaniards Inn for lunch, Golders Green, bus to Freyents Country Park, Northwick Park, Harrow School grounds , Harrow on the Hill & St Marys.
It will be about 13 miles and we should be at st Marys by 16.00ish.
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C'mon Carole - you're one of the closest distance wise.
Please let us know how you get on Steven. I will be interested to know if there are any NB fans (rather than just 'walking' fanatics ;D) who join you.
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I wanna be there :'( :'(
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ooo I hope Mongibello sees this ...
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I wanna be there :'( :'(
I would love to too.
BUT. Steven is looking for "brisk walkers" and I'd like to dawdle and look around. ;) I'd probabaly be back at 4 the next day. ;D
Some may have work commitments or not be up to walking quickly.
Yes apart from Carole, Mongibello, Steve and Steven are there any Greater London NB followers?
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Hi Ruskie :)
I would love a brisk walk but would want to stop at all the pubs on the way LOL!!!
BTW .... Does anyone know anyone that goes to the National Archives ....???
Deb ...who doesn't have a pub or old building anywhere near her!!!!
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I know how you feel Deb. :-\
But if you go on Steven's walk you can have a half at the Spaniards Inn. Probably won't have enough time for a pint. Mind you, too many pub stops and you'd also need to be visiting all the public toilets along the way. ;D
Yeah there's a bit of an 'old building' black hole where I live too Deb. One of the oldest buildings in my area is my house, and that is only about 100 years old. :-\ You really miss them don't you? (Old buildings are one of my favourite things.)
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Some more details about the statue in today's entry. I'm glad Nathaniel managed to see as much as he did. It must have been a huge event for the times.
Such a shame about so many missing words in the final paragraph. Nathaniel mentions reading about this building in the newspaper. (Before TV ;)) I suppose the demolition or construction of a building would be something really spectacular for people to watch. A great public event.
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St James is a Wren church (damaged in WW2 and rebuilt). Lots of images and information about it on google.
There is mention of the demolished rectory here:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=40650
I'm a bit confused - these images show an illustration of the rectory in 1839 and a photo from 1960. :-\ What was demolished?
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Isn't the rectory the building on the right in the original etching? (Although I'd describe the windows as "rounded" rather than "round" as Nat says.) In the 1960 photo there's a more modern, taller building in its place.
Although it's interesting that Nat confirms the demolition as seven years later than the official record has it, which shows how diaries can be useful for providing historical info as well as just social background.
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Perhaps something was built and then demolished again 7 years later :)
The walk looks very interesting, but although I come from London I actually live 70 miles away and will be working on that day. Pity, as I have been developing walking 'skills' recently. My son has taken to rambling over the many fields we have behind our house, where you can easily do a 13 mile walk over footpaths and old abandoned railways and a quarry which form part of a pocket park in the adjacent town. I have walked with him twice, and have done over 10 miles. It got easier the second time :)
Steve
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I hope to be there on Tuesday.
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I honestly wouldn't manage more than a couple of miles before having to call on paramedics!
Carole
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Isn't the rectory the building on the right in the original etching? (Although I'd describe the windows as "rounded" rather than "round" as Nat says.) In the 1960 photo there's a more modern, taller building in its place.
Although it's interesting that Nat confirms the demolition as seven years later than the official record has it, which shows how diaries can be useful for providing historical info as well as just social background.
There's the building that looks like a square tower which appears to have (3 floors of) round windows. But I don't know that this looks like a rectory? It also appears in the 1960 photo which doesn't make sense. There is the lower long building in the illustration but is that the vestry hall? Perhaps the rectory was rebuilt in the same style as the demolished building if Wren designed it?
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I'm glad you're going to try to make it for the walk Mongibello.
Carole and Steve ... excuses, excuses ... ;)
;D ;D ;D
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There's the building that looks like a square tower which appears to have (3 floors of) round windows. But I don't know that this looks like a rectory? It also appears in the 1960 photo which doesn't make sense. There is the lower long building in the illustration but is that the vestry hall?
The lower long one is the one I meant, yeah, but I'm just speculating. To be honest I have no idea what a rectory should look like anyway, so if someone who does says that that isn't one then I'm happy to go along with that :)
It's also interesting to compare the church itself in the etching and photo, and note how its appearance has been fairly drastically altered over time by having the top of its tower removed so that these days it's level with the roof of the rest of the church.
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It's also interesting to compare the church itself in the etching and photo, and note how its appearance has been fairly drastically altered over time by having the top of its tower removed so that these days it's level with the roof of the rest of the church.
It was damaged in the war so maybe some are unplanned changes. :)
A rectory is simply a rector's residence. I wouldn't imagine this would be too grand (Steven?) though I suppose anything designed by Wren would be a cut above. ;) I wonder if the rectory is on such a small scale that it isn't obvious in the illustration or photograph though obviously important enough to get a mention? :-\
Nathaniel didn't give a reason but I'd be interested to find out why it was demolished.
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It's also interesting to compare the church itself in the etching and photo, and note how its appearance has been fairly drastically altered over time by having the top of its tower removed so that these days it's level with the roof of the rest of the church.
It was damaged in the war so maybe some are unplanned changes. :)
A rectory is simply a rector's residence. I wouldn't imagine this would be too grand (Steven?) though I suppose anything designed by Wren would be a cut above. ;) I wonder if the rectory is on such a small scale that it isn't obvious in the illustration or photograph though obviously important enough to get a mention? :-\
Nathaniel didn't give a reason but I'd be interested to find out why it was demolished.
I think I may have answered my own question. There's some very detailed and interesting information about the church here:
http://www.st-james-piccadilly.org/History.html
I just 'skimmed' over this piece but appears that the church has undergone constant alterations through the ages.
The Rectory
The present rectory is the third to stand on the site in the north-east corner of the churchyard (G on fig. 2). The first was begun in 1685 and finished in 1686. (ref. 244) The workmen known to have been employed on its construction were Anthony Hart, bricklayer, Jonathan Wilcox, carpenter, Henry Lobb, joiner, and John Cock, plumber. (ref. 245)
In 1739 a passage and doorway were made on the ground floor to enable the rector to pass into the vestry which adjoined it. (ref. 246) The house survived until 1846 when it was demolished (ref. 247) and a new rectory was built on its site in 1846–7 from the designs of John Henry Hakewill. (ref. 248) Hakewill's building was destroyed in the war of 1939– 1945 and the new rectory, designed by Austin Blomfield, was built in 1955–7. (ref. 249) The building has a church hall at basement level and incorporates a vestry room.
The original rectory is shown by Tallis (Plate 18a), and a part of it appears in a view of the church published in 1837. (ref. 250) Both sources combine to suggest that it was a fairly typical late seventeenthcentury house of three storeys, built of brick with long-and-short quoins and bandcourses of stone, and a tiled roof sloping down to a wooden eavescornice. The Piccadilly front had four straightheaded windows in each upper storey and the pedimented doorway was placed on the left. J. H. Hakewill's building of 1846 preserved the general lines of the former house, but the windows had segmental arches, the quoins were all of equal length, and the crowning cornice was of stone. At some time, perhaps around 1900, Hakewill's three-storeyed building was heightened by an additional storey, designed with a scrupulous regard for the original work.
The new rectory, also a three-storeyed building, is built of red and fawn-coloured bricks with stone dressings. The elevations, neo-Georgian in style and somewhat eclectic in detail, are more elaborate than those of the former buildings. The entrance front faces west to overlook the paved churchyard, and is a composition of three bays. The doorway, in the middle bay, has a handsome doorcase of stone with a broken segmental pediment, and is reached by a double flight of curved steps (Plate 18b).
Another one to put on your list Steven if you haven't already visited it. ;)
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October 1st, another entry that must have been written later as the news of Lionel Dietrichsen's suicide only appeared in The Daily News Saturday 3 October. Lionel Dietrichsen was the surviving partner of Dietrichsen and Hannay, Patent Medicine vendors and general medical booksellers of 63 Oxford Street, he was unmarried and lived with his mother and sister. According to the paper He had been engaged in a chancery suit, and had latterly evinced a lowness of spirits and eccentricity of manner resulting, as was supposed from his too close application of study.
I won't go into the gruesome details, except to remark that the invention of the safety razor stopped a lot of people from having a very messy end.
Carole
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I think I may have answered my own question. There's some very detailed and interesting information about the church here:
http://www.st-james-piccadilly.org/History.html
I just 'skimmed' over this piece but appears that the church has undergone constant alterations through the ages.
Yeah, that link was very useful. It's clear that the rectory is the building on the left and not the one I suggested it might be earlier. Also it seems that though there have been three different rectories over time, the first and third ones at least are quite similar in style, which is why it seemed like the original building was still standing in the 1960 photo when in fact it was demolished during 1846.
Although it still doesn't explain why Nat talks about round windows when the drawing of it in Nat's time suggests it had square ones.
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The entry for October 2nd mentions the Croydon Fair. There's a bit about it in this book (date unknown) about Croydon:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09wt/
which mentions the fair as taking place on October 2nd. :)
... but in ...
1866 Croydon Fair on Fair Field banned.
Land bought by Brighton Railway Company.
Second gasworks built.
Shame .... :(
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October 1st, another entry that must have been written later as the news of Lionel Dietrichsen's suicide only appeared in The Daily News Saturday 3 October. Lionel Dietrichsen was the surviving partner of Dietrichsen and Hannay, Patent Medicine vendors and general medical booksellers of 63 Oxford Street, he was unmarried and lived with his mother and sister. According to the paper He had been engaged in a chancery suit, and had latterly evinced a lowness of spirits and eccentricity of manner resulting, as was supposed from his too close application of study.
I won't go into the gruesome details, except to remark that the invention of the safety razor stopped a lot of people from having a very messy end.
Carole
Please do! ;)
Carole do you have access to the Gale Newspaper site or did you find this Daily News article somewhere else?
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I wonder where George Lea got the money from to pay for the draught horse? I don't think they came cheap.
Yes the information came from the Gale newspaper site. Let's just say Mr Dietrichsen managed to almost sever his own head :o - I'm just thinking how dreadful it must have been for the person who discovered him......
Carole
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I wonder where George Lea got the money from to pay for the draught horse? I don't think they came cheap.
Yes the information came from the Gale newspaper site. Let's just say Mr Dietrichsen managed to almost sever his own head :o - I'm just thinking how dreadful it must have been for the person who discovered him......
Carole
Maybe George bought the horse on the never never? Credit? A favour? Knowing George I doubt that he'd have paid cash. ;)
Oh dear. Mr Dietrichsen's demise sounds awful and I do feel for the poor person/people who found him. I imagine all the gory details would have been included in the newspaper article. They did tend to include those in vividly descriptive language back in those days. :P
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I love today's diary entry. Nat did a good job of the shorthand not mentioning Ann's name.
It's actually made me wonder why sometimes he mentions her and sometimes, like today, makes a point of not doing so. Exchanging the clock is innocent and I would have thought it would be OK to write about her in this context.
We know that his family know about Ann, so why the secrecy today? He didn't see Ann last Sunday either, which is unusual.
I wonder if he is under pressure not to see Ann, but has managed to sneak out with her, hence the italics today? :-\
Although Ann is a 'charwoman' she seems to have money to spare to loan to Nat, buy books and prints and 'upgrade' clocks. She appears to be well off enough to afford some luxuries.
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Although Ann is a 'charwoman' she seems to have money to spare to loan to Nat, buy books and prints and 'upgrade' clocks.
I just hope that Ann realises that when it comes to clocks, size isn't everything :)
But yeah I like the way he distributes his shorthand around the main entry so that it still makes perfect sense with or without it, and the shorthand just adds more context to his actions. Maybe he just likes to add an element of secrecy; it gives him a chance to practice his shorthand after all.
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Ann is a conundrum. We don't know if she was married or single, so have very little chance of tracking her down. All we know is at one time she was a charwoman - but as Ruskie says, she's got money to lend Nat. She's got a clock,which even in 1846 is not something everyone would have owned. She's literate and even seems to share some of Nat's interests. I can imagine Nat's mother and granny and George Lea, but I can't imagine what Ann was like at all.
Carole
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Ann is a conundrum .... but I can't imagine what Ann was like at all.
Carole
I agree, I find it extremely frustrating knowing so little about Ann. Nat is a bright lad and likes to keep company with her, so there must be something about her to keep his interest (obviously more than just physical).
I actually find this quite enlightening. Before reading Nat's diary and gleaning the little we know about Ann, I would have thought of a charwoman as someone who was uneducated and probably very poor. But Ann appears to be neither. So now I'll look at people with lowly occupations with a more open mind.
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Hi everyone
I know I looked for Ann's Baptism a while back but now, for the life of me, I can't remember her birthday. I know Nat mentioned it ... does anyone remember the month?
deb
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I know I looked for Ann's Baptism a while back but now, for the life of me, I can't remember her birthday. I know Nat mentioned it ... does anyone remember the month?
Nat does mention it, but in a forthcoming entry I think. The reason it was discussed on here already was because Steven gave us a sneak preview of that particular entry, having seen the full diary first-hand. Unfortunately I can't remember which particular thread it was discussed in, or what the date was.
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Thanks drykid, I thought I was going crazy not being able to find it. ::)
deb
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Hi Deb! ;D
Ann Fox was born 9 October 1801
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good job, Ruskie!!!!!! ;D
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Unfortunately he doesn't mention where she was born (like he did for Matthew Ward :-\).
Yes, I think Steven was being kind and putting us out of our misery by spilling the beans about Ann's date of birth before the event. ;)
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Ruskie
If you go back and check Ann in 1851 with Mrs. Kennington, on Stephen Street ..there is something written under the status column ...I am sure we have tried to decipher it before but I'm giving it another go !
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::) ::)
lodger?
added ... Not that this helps ... ::) :-\
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Sorry Deb, I signed off last night before I saw your last post. Yes we've looked at that word before - I agree it looks like 'lodger'.
In today's entry Nat has his usual italics regarding Ann, but then says he went for a walk with her - but no italics. Another string to Nat's bow - he can fix clocks. Well at least he's trying to. ;D
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Fixing clocks isn't as easy it seems; I remember my dad's disastrous attempt to fix my grandfather's old mantel clock. He forgot to release the tension in the main spring before trying to take it apart, which meant that at one critical point he removed a screw and the whole thing exploded, for want of a better term, stripping all the teeth off the main flywheel in the process. It cost a fortune to get put right by an expert afterwards (it would probably have made more sense to throw it away, but it has sentimental value.)
Anyway the chapel on Gray's Inn Lane was otherwise known as the Chapel of St Bartholomew and was destroyed in WWII. (Apparently it was quite a plain, flat-roofed building.) Wren's St. Mary's Abchurch on the other hand thankfully still survives, although like most of the Wren churches it was damaged in WWII also.
Is it just me, or are most of the suggestions for reducing cholera on that handbill largely irrelevant? I'm fairly sure that lack of sleep wasn't a known cause of cholera (And even if it was, it was something that most of the poor in those days had little choice over anyway.)
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Ah no wonder I couldn't find anything about the Chapel in Grays Inn Lane. I did find St Marys Abchurch. Another Wren creation though one site says designed by the 'office' of Wren so who knows how much input the great man had on this particular church.
Yes I think the Cholera thingy is all wrong. It was spread throuh unhygenic conditons - food/water etc. which is not mentioned
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I have noticed of late that all plugs are up in the City to keep the streets cleansed and to keep away the cholera
I just wonder what the "plugs" were. I suppose there was some system to regulate the drains, but that suggests that the normally the plugs were in ... but if the plugs were normally in, how would the drainage work ???
Everyone then believed cholera was spread by bad smells ... although I'd imagine London smelt pretty bad anyway, so how could they tell the bad smells that caused cholera from the general bad smells that were just unpleasant?
Carole
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Ah no wonder I couldn't find anything about the Chapel in Grays Inn Lane.
I'm fairly sure this is referring to the same building:
CII—Gray's Inn Road. East side, Nos. 214–252 (even numbers)
Nos. 214–224 are early 19th century houses with shops and three storeys over, partly renovated.
St. Bartholomew's Church, now demolished, was built in 1811, at a cost of £9,000 by admirers of William Huntington (1745–1813), coalheaver and preacher, who added to his name the initials S.S. (Sinner Saved). (ref. 35) His previous church, Providence Chapel in Titchfield Street, had been burnt down. St. Bartholomew's seated about 1,300. After Huntington's death several dissenting preachers (fn. a) occupied the pulpit, (ref. 7) but in 1837 it was opened as an Episcopal Proprietary Chapel, having been sub-leased to the Rev. Thomas Mortimer (ref. 36) by the trustees of George Davenport. (fn. b) A plan of the site made in 1836 includes an almshouse. (ref. 37) The chapel was eventually purchased, consecrated and endowed as the district church of St. Bartholomew in 1860. (ref. 36) It was almost entirely destroyed by bombing on 17th October, 1940. Architecturally the church was of the plainest type of early 19th century meeting house with a flat ceiling of considerable span. Among the memorial tablets was one to Clarissa Murray, Sunday School leader, d. 1864.
From: 'The Calthorpe Estate', Survey of London: volume 24: The parish of St Pancras part 4: King’s Cross Neighbourhood (1952), pp. 56-69. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=65562 Date accessed: 04 October 2010.
Yes I think the Cholera thingy is all wrong. It was spread throuh unhygenic conditons - food/water etc. which is not mentioned
Although maybe that wasn't known at all back then? I'm not sure of the history of cholera treatment.
And yeah I didn't get the "plugs" bit either.
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Hi
Misc thoughts :
Plugs might be manhole / sewer covers?
Perhaps Nat isn't so interested in Ann due to 'slow progress' or she has given him a 'cold shoulder due to his continuous undergarment removal attempts. Perhaps the frustration explains the 25 mile long walks :)
I wonder if Nat will have 'Ann up' to give her his present? Lucky for her, its a saturday, not a sunday :)
Those cholera prevention notes wouldnt do anything. In fact as it was water borne, you would have been better drinking more beer, not less. Its things like the cholera misunderstanding (smells) that make me one day think that we will look back and say, that stuff about man made global warming was all wrong. (Millennium bug anyone?). The Thames stopped freezing over in the 1700s, which wasnt industrialisation and 20,000 years ago, the UK was in an ice age. So something changes naturally. Locks like ive gone off on one, sorry for digression :)
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It was John Snow who first noticed that Cholera in Soho seemed to be linked to one particular water pump in the London cholera epidemic of 1854. Read this article, which explains it all much better than I could! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Snow_%28physician%29 It's terribly sad that although he'd got to the bottom of things, after the immediate epidemic, the government thought the public would find it too 'unpleasant' and so ignored it. Plus ca change.
ETA: It was partly this that made the government commission Joseph Bazalgette to build the London sewers after the Big Stink of 1858 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Bazalgette although they thought it was the stink that caused the cholera, but by getting rid of what caused the stink, the end result was the same.
ETA: Interestingly the current London sewer system is not sufficient, and after heavy rainfall it overflows into the Thames. Thames Water is currently consulting about the favoured route for a new sewer overflow system which will take the effluent to a water treatment works somewhere in Essex (I believe).
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drykid, that does sound fairly likely to be the same church ... is Gray's Inn Lane the same as Gray's Inn Road? :-\ You wouldn't think there'd be too many Chapels built on the same road. :)
It was believed that the black plague was caused by a miasma, so not a real lot of progress between then and 1846.
It does make sense for "plugs" to be manhole covers, though if they were "up" how could this keep the "streets cleansed" as Nat describes?
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drykid, that does sound fairly likely to be the same church ... is Gray's Inn Lane the same as Gray's Inn Road? :-\ You wouldn't think there'd be too many Chapels built on the same road. :)
True, and it's even less likely to have two referred to as episcopal. According to wikipedia "Gray's Inn Lane" became "Gray's Inn Road" mid-19th century.
Its things like the cholera misunderstanding (smells) that make me one day think that we will look back and say, that stuff about man made global warming was all wrong. (Millennium bug anyone?). The Thames stopped freezing over in the 1700s, which wasnt industrialisation and 20,000 years ago, the UK was in an ice age. So something changes naturally. Locks like ive gone off on one, sorry for digression
It's probably best if I don't get into the climate change thing, but there are other reasons for the Thames not freezing over these days then simply the climate changing (though I'm not disputing that is a part of it.) The construction of the embankment and the removal of the old London Bridge (the one with houses built on it) apparently also played a part too. It's a shame really, as it sounds like it would've been great fun to see one of the ice fairs that took place on the river itself.
Also as one of the people who spent several years going through programs and fixing date-related code in the late 90s, I can assure you that the millenium bug wasn't a myth. It was just (mostly) well enough planned for in advance to prevent any major crises on the day. But you could argue that the publicity that the whole issue got, helped to make sure that companies took it seriously, so in that respect it was no bad thing. But yeah, this is way off-topic :)
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It does make sense for "plugs" to be manhole covers, though if they were "up" how could this keep the "streets cleansed" as Nat describes?
A wild guess here, but perhaps it enabled the 'exhaust' of horses to be more easily swep away, donw the 'plug'. It must have been pretty messy on the streets then.
The BBC program on the london sewer system tied Bazelgette and Snow together as solving the London cholera problems.
Added - looking up 'plug' in an online dictionary states its also a name for a fire hydrant. So, next guess is its a tap or standpipe, which would allow streets to be washed down
Added 2 - Company i worked for at the time charged people lots of money for software upgrades to millenium proof things that didnt have a problem - i think we were not alone in making money from the hype. No planes crashed, no worlds ended, whole thing was way overplayed
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...
Also as one of the people who spent several years going through programs and fixing date-related code in the late 90s, I can assure you that the millenium bug wasn't a myth. It was just (mostly) well enough planned for in advance to prevent any major crises on the day. But you could argue that the publicity that the whole issue got, helped to make sure that companies took it seriously, so in that respect it was no bad thing. But yeah, this is way off-topic :)
I was there too. :D Decades old cash tills!!!!
Paul
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Today's entry is interesting, being about the suicide of the Swiss Giantess, which was previously alluded to. Nat estimates her height at 6'3, which is hardly gigantic...I think it must go to show just how small most people were back then. I have a short booklet written by my great great grandfather, giving the height of him and his brothers, and they were all around 5'2.
With people's diets being so poor, I suppose they didn't have the right nutrients to grow very tall. I wonder what height rich people were? Although from what I've seen, rich people didn't seem to eat any vegetables, so I imagine they were as unhealthy as poor people, but in a different way. Perhaps the difference was more between town and country, with country people having easy access to milk and veg. Although one of my 3x great grandfathers was a Londonder and also kept cows, and was a milkman, so maybe that's not right either.
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Interesting points
I read somewhere that when young boys signed up to the Forces, their weight/height/build was considerably different, to when they were discharged. Again, perhaps due to diet? But isn't height a genetic thing though?
I had heard (perhaps an old wives tale...but time will tell!) that when a child is 2 years old, if you double their height, this is roughly the height to which they will grow. If this is true, my daughter will be around 5'8", which considering her father is over 6' isn't too surprising.
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I was going to make a similar comment on height, in that people were shorter then. Go into any old house, and the low celings are evident - short people didnt need high celings.
on the other hand, any historians 200 years in the future visiting the villa I stayed at in Florida last month, with high (compared to UK) celings will expect 21st century Americans to be 8ft tall :)
The midwife of my eldest son said he would be tall, "I can tell from his feet". He reached 6ft, which is tall in my book @ 5ft 9. :)
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I went to visit a colleague today who told me to get off at the Glenwood Gardens stop near Gants Hill. This rang a bell and I realised it was the road in which Henry Bryceson (NB's youngest son and my 2x great grandfather) died in 1950. For some reason I had not been to see the house before but did so today! All this was on top of the wonderful memorial walk yesterday to Harrow on the Hill!
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The poor Swiss Giantess again. I've actually done a bit of research on the sad lives of freak humans and animals who were exhibited in the C18 & C19th - centering on the Wonderful Learned Pig - it was bad enough exhibiting animals but the humans were treated in the same awful way as possessions of the showman.
I've had a look at the newspapers the Swiss Giantess first appears in 1824 Catherine Boehner was in England, she was 6' 7" weighed 370lbs aged 19 and 'her teeth are among the finest we ever beheld' She didn't speak English but her manner was 'gay and pleasing'. She went on exhibition in Piccadilly wearing Swiss national costume, and then appears to have gone of around the country on show.
In 1826 she was on exhibit in Soho Square 'Admittance one shilling each person - children half price' Then she disappears from the newspaper reports.
The first record of Nat's Swiss giantess is on October 12 with the report of her suicide. Interestingly it says that she had lives in 'first rate style' but 'for the last three or four years she had gone from bad to worse' and ended up begging for a penny as she had not eaten for the past 24 hours. 'She then said she was going over Waterloo Bridge, and that she had a great mind to stop there and make a "hole in the water"' She was aged 51.
I don’t know if the two are the same or not. Their ages don't match, but if Eliza Lawrence had lived in some style from the proceedings of being a second Swiss Giantess there are no newspaper advertisements for her. In another newspaper report a witness said that in her younger days 'she was the constant companion of the Marquis of ----- and other noblemen and gentlemen' - perhaps they are one and the same and she went under several names?
Carole
Update - there was reported to be a "fake" Swiss Giantess in the 1820s. There were any number of Learned Pigs travelling the country, so there were probably several Swiss giantesses as well.
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I am not sure if anyone found George Lea in the 1851 Census but I think this is him.
HO107/1480/124/p69 Little Queen St (Now Old Queen St)
George Lea H 31 Lighterman b St Pancras
Anna M Lea W 26 b Holborn
But wher are th children you ask The two eldest are here with Grandpa:-
HO107/1498/696/p10
William W Dell H Wid 55 Fund Holder b Enfield
Clara Lea G'dau 7
Harriet Lea G'dau 5
The other two MAY have been in Richmond & Hadley (near Barnet where Lydia Lea lived.
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Sorry about that....try this
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That's very useful, Mongibello. Thanks for putting it up. I wasn't quite sure how Miss Harriet Lea was related...looks like she and Nat were 2nd cousins.
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Thanks for the info about the Swiss Giantess Carole, and Mongibello, your diagram makes it easy to see the relationships. I always have to work with a diagram otherwise I get terribly muddled.
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I went to visit a colleague today who told me to get off at the Glenwood Gardens stop near Gants Hill. This rang a bell and I realised it was the road in which Henry Bryceson (NB's youngest son and my 2x great grandfather) died in 1950. For some reason I had not been to see the house before but did so today! All this was on top of the wonderful memorial walk yesterday to Harrow on the Hill!
Steven did you take any photos of the house? I'd love to see one. ;)
Can you tell us a bit more about the walk? How many turned up? (Did you make it Mongibello?) How long did it take? Do you have any photos you can share?
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HAPPY BIRTHDAY Ann Fox!
45 today! ;D
I hope you and Nathaniel had a pleasant evening. ;)
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Yes, Happy Birthday Ann Fox ...
And, my dear Ann, by the way, if you spot Harriet King or her parents or if you know of any connection to the King & Lee pawnbrokers of 5 Mary St ... please let me know ... Harriet was 16 and an orphan (d of John and Harriet) and a native of London when she emigrated in 1849 to NSW on the ship Diana ... ;) ... Ann, could you please share that knowledge with Nathaniel, and make sure he writes it up in his Diary ..
Cheers, JM
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Happy Birthday Ann, indeed - you know, I may be a bit slow...but it just dawned on me that by Nat writing her birthday as he did...shows that he KNEW exactly how old Ann was.
So what exactly was he playing at? The fact that he marries a girl closer to his age, surely shows that he doesn't have a preference for older women...was this how things were done in those days? I am beginning to think that Ann Fox was a widow, but I guess we'll never know :'(
He's been with her for at least 10 months now...possibly a lot longer...their relationship is so intriguing!
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I love the fact that it was no secret that Nathaniel knew Ann's age and birth date and he was happy to mention this in his diary, however he used shorthand to say that he met up with her. I wish he'd gone into more detail - I wonder if he bought her a gift? ;)
It is SO frustrating not knowing more about Ann and her relationship with Nat. >:(
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Happy Birthday Ann :D ...wish I had known you!
deb
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So what exactly was he playing at? The fact that he marries a girl closer to his age, surely shows that he doesn't have a preference for older women...
I think the fact that he married someone closer to his age may have been due to any number of reasons:
Either one or both of them deemed their relationship a little out of the ordinary - marriage may have been socially unacceptable/impractical etc. Perhaps Ann may have been unable to have children due to her age (or other reasons) hence they didn't marry. Isn't/wasn't procreation one of the main reasons for, or expect from, a marriage?. We don't know her status. Ann may have died or married someone else.
Maybe Nathaniel thought Sarah a more suitable partner for marriage - it may not have been a conscious decison to choose a younger partner. I think age was probably irrelevant to him. However I can see Nathaniel doing the 'right' or 'conventional thing' in most aspects of his life, so it was probablay the case when it came to his choice of a marriage partner.
I like that fact that his relationship with Ann is unconventional. And I like to think that he did have a penchant for older women. ;D
Just my thoughts .... ;)
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I take it that the church near the new coffee shop where Nathaniel had his cocoa and read the newspaper in Old Compton Street is St Annes.
The church can be viewed from Wardour Street on google maps. Nice church. ;D
[As an aside, I am very pleased to see so many red telephone boxes outside ;D ... I thought they were getting rid of them?]
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Yes I did take part.
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No I am not in the picture, I was behind the camera!
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What a crew!
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Thanks Mongibello - great photo! I recognize Steven. ;)
Well I think there is a fair amount to be researched around today's diary entry.
As usual Nathaniel's italics are wonderful - and I did have a bit of a giggle. ;D I love Nathaniel!
This entry has confirmed that the 'intimate' relationship between Nat and Ann is a secret but not just their general friendship.
And further confirmation that Nathaniel is teaching himself Latin! What a task.
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Heh it's nice that Nat did give Ann a birthday "present"; not sure it's exactly what she would've had in mind though :-\ (It made me wonder about the practicalities of getting clothes washed in those days also, considering we're long before the days of automatic washing machines and biological powder...) But yeah, I agree with your summation of their relationship. It's kind of sweet actually, they're acting like a pair of teenagers trying to not get caught out by their parents.
Also good to see a bit more info about Nat's Latin abilities, which I queried the other day. Seems like he probably would've translated the Latin he found on gravestones later with the aid of the dictionary, it doesn't sound from today's entry like he would've been confident enough at this stage to be able to do it unaided much.
St Mary Aldenbury has an interesting history that I wasn't familiar with previously. According to wikipedia all but the walls were destroyed in WWII and these were actually rebuilt in America; there's a pic of both the church as it is now and the empty space in London where it once stood:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Mary_Aldermanbury
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prayer offered up for the suppression of the approaching famine or otherwise scarcity of food which at present threatens this country,
The autumn of 1846 was when the potato famime really got bad in Ireland - but potato blight was also present on the mainland.
Out of interest you can still get (well you could about 10 years ago) the main variety of potato that the Irish grew and the one that failed the most - Lumpers. I've grown it and it's pretty tasteless but kind of gritty and not very nice.
Carole
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Looks like Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky (re the dress) was nothing new :)
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I'm sure the "little Latin" Nathaniel practiced would have successfully taken his mind off earlier his antics with Ann. ;D
Something about the fire which happened on June the 9th:
http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~melbaker/1846fire.htm
Wiki says:
"The core of the city was destroyed by fire several times, the most famous of which was the Great Fire of 1892."
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prayer offered up for the suppression of the approaching famine or otherwise scarcity of food which at present threatens this country,
The autumn of 1846 was when the potato famime really got bad in Ireland - but potato blight was also present on the mainland.
Out of interest you can still get (well you could about 10 years ago) the main variety of potato that the Irish grew and the one that failed the most - Lumpers. I've grown it and it's pretty tasteless but kind of gritty and not very nice.
Carole
Yes, I thought Nat may have been referring to the potato famine. Interesting about "lumpers" which sounds like an awful spud (from someone who loves a good potato ;))
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Some information about John Howard here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Howard_(prison_reformer)
He married a woman 30 years older than himself! :o Maybe there was something in that London water. ;)
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Looks like Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky (re the dress) was nothing new :)
Now Steve we don't want to lower the tone of this thread by mentioning those two. ;D
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Just to let you all know, Jim's lovely blog post about the Nathaniel Bryceson memorial walk went live yesterday:
http://wcclibraries.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/in-the-footsteps-of-a-victorian-clerk/
If you would like to receive email notification of all posts on the Books & the City blog from Westminster Libraries & Archives, there is an email subscription box in the right-hand column. If you only want to hear about posts relating to Nathaniel Bryceson, then you can subscribe to the 'bryceson' tag by RSS with http://en.wordpress.com/tag/bryceson/feed/
Thanks Jim - from Ali, on behalf of Westminster Libraries & Archives
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Hi Ali
Welcome to Rootschat! :D
Thanks so much for the link... it's great!
At first I didn't know who Jim was ... ;D ... then it clicked ... it's our Mongibello!
Our thanks to you and all at Westminster Libraries & Archives for providing us the oppotunity to read the diary, albeit from afar.
deb
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Ah, Mongibello's true identity is out! Thanks Jim for the story - fabulous!
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Just to let you all know, Jim's lovely blog post about the Nathaniel Bryceson memorial walk went live yesterday:
http://wcclibraries.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/in-the-footsteps-of-a-victorian-clerk/
If you would like to receive email notification of all posts on the Books & the City blog from Westminster Libraries & Archives, there is an email subscription box in the right-hand column. If you only want to hear about posts relating to Nathaniel Bryceson, then you can subscribe to the 'bryceson' tag by RSS with http://en.wordpress.com/tag/bryceson/feed/
Thanks Jim - from Ali, on behalf of Westminster Libraries & Archives
Glad you've joined us at last Alison! ;D I will check the links later. Thank you for letting us know.
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Oh how frustrating......re today's entry; what was hardly damaged?
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I thought that no posts at all yesterday was more frustrating :)
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Mongibello, I really enjoyed reading your blog about the walk to Harrow. Love the bit about catching the bus and also the last sentence. ;D
I think it would be really interesting to include many (if not all) of Nathaniel's walks in the book. I'd love to see the walks marked out on an 1846 map and possibly a map of today as well (so we can get our bearings ;) and of course it would be wonderful to compare the two).
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The post for Friday 16th October is a bit like something out of a sit com:
"Took black Dutch clock to be repaired at Vogt, clockmaker, Goodge Street".
It amused me anyway ... ;D
Poor Nat. ;D
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Yeah I was amused that he gave up and ended up taking it to a professional to fix; that's exactly what happened with my dad's mantel clock. Although that cost £70 to repair iirc; I'm guessing Nat got off a bit more lightly than that.
The Old Bailey proceedings list an Anthony Vogt, clockmaker who was witness to the shocking crime of a robbery of three loaves of bread in 1840:
2147. WILLIAM BAILEY and WILLIAM JOHNSON were indicted for stealing, on the 15th of August, 3 loaves of bread, value 1s. 8d., and 1 3/4lbs. weight of flour, value 5d., the goods of Robert Hamilton Murray.
WILLIAM MILLER . I am in the employ of Robert Hamilton Murray, a baker. On the 15th of August, I went out with bread—I left my barrow at the corner of Carburton and Charlton-streets—I left a padlock on the barrow, but I bad lost the key—I put the lock on as if it was locked—I came back in three quarters of an hour, and missed one large loaf, two small ones, and half a quartern of flour, and the prisoners were in custody.
Bailey. Q. Was the flap up or down? A. Up.
ANTHONY VOGT . I am a clock-maker. I saw the barrow at the corner of Carburton-street as I was coming from business—Johnson was at my door, and Bailey walked up and down—I watched them—they left one another, then came and talked again—they are father and son—Johnson went to the truck and did something, I do not know what—they came together, talked again, and then went to the truck, and Johnson took out one quartern and two half-quarterns, then went away—I went after him and stopped him—he took the flour with him—I took him with the bread—he offered me a shilling—I said, "I don't want a shilling"—he then offered me two shillings—I said, "I don't want that, I will have you and your father too."
HENRY FOWLER . I am a policeman. I took Johnson, and saw Bailey look round the corner of the street, and then run away—my brother officer took him.
Bailey's Defence. We were having a pint of beer—I saw somebody come to the barrow and take the bread and floor out—we went out and saw the bread and flour lying on the path.
BAILEY— GUILTY . Aged 52.— Confined Six Months.
JOHNSON— GUILTY . Aged 14.— Confined One Month, and Whipped.
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?path=sessionsPapers%2F18400817.xml
Might well be the same person since it's only a few years before the diary, and Carburton Street is close enough to Goodge Street.
People don't really apprehend criminals any more with expressions like "I will have you and your father too" do they? It's all very Dickensian.
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Ancestry have got a new indexed search facility up of London parish registers 1538-1812 http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1624 It sounds wonderful and I've found the odd burial or two but there seem to be far more records on the IGI. I couldn't see an Ann Fox born in 1801 and as far as I can see the Skirricker family must have come from Mars.
Nat should have given the works a soak in something like methylated spirits to clean it first, but I don't know if it had been invented then!
Carole
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I thought today's entry was gently poignant...I can imagine him toiling each evening over that dratted clock, getting slightly more and more frustrated with it each time, and then eventually swearing gently under his breath, wrapping it up in a cloth and taking it to Mr Vogt's and silently putting it down on his counter. "Do what you can with it" and then turning on his heel and leaving with wounded pride. But then I'm a huge great imaginer and it probably wasn't like that at all!
I was interested to read that account of the father and son who stole the bread, and was interested to see that they used the word 'truck' back then. For some reason I've always thought it was a new coinage when petrol engines came in...I've never heard of a horse-drawn truck before. And I,too, liked the language used when Johnson was apprehended! I wonder whether they really did speak like that in the street, or whether it was cleaned up for the courtroom?
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Regarding the language used, we recently came across a newspaper report where a relative apprehended a man unlawfully demolishing some of the relative's property. Examples from the ensuing court case from two witnesses of the relative's reported challenge:
Defendant came up and caught him by the waistcoat, and said "You ----- rascal what are you doing taking down my building."
"You vagabond, what are you pulling down this property for?" or words to that effect.
I like the "words to that effect" reference, which leaves it open to the imagination.
Didy
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Well it looks like Mr (Thomas) Ternan died from syphilis (maybe) in the insane asylum Bethnal Green! :o An mention of the family from google books "Letters of Charles Dickens":
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0a3e/
[They're not sure of his year of birth. Trust Nathaniel to know. ;)] I would have thought that Nathaniel may have , specially as one source said he committed suicide - there may have been some controversy surrounding his death.
Thinking about it, I suppose Nat would have read Dickens - but he has not mentioned doing so. Maybe he wasn't impressed. ;D
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Well, I live and learn. Living in Kent I can't escape Dickens but I didn't know Ellen Ternam, Dicken's mistress was born in Rochester as I was. I wonder where? ... that will be my task for the day!
I really do see Nat as a Dickensian character, Dickens is full of enthusiastic young clerks like Nat, and he's got enough odd habits to make him perfect Dickens material.
Carole
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So this Mr Ternan, whose death is noted by Nat, was the father of Dicken's mistress? I'm glad you pointed that out, Siamese Girl, because although I'd heard of Ellen Ternan before, I hadn't linked her with this family. Interesting. And I agree with you, Nat is a quintessentially Dickensian sort of character, I'd have said. It's a shame Mr Dickens never met him. We could have been blessed with "The Tale of Nathaniel Bryceson or The Fox and The Hound"...it's a wonderful story. Maybe a present day author would like to turn it into a novel.
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October 18th He's been to to the New Tottenham Court Chapel - is that where he usually looks looks for Mrs Skirricker? I can't rememeber ??? anyway he doesn't mention her I'm still holding out hopes that she might be Mary Shillinglaw of Windsor Street Islington buried at St Mary Islington 13 December 1846 aged 84.
Perhaps she wasn't there because she was ill? The worst bit is that the diary will end before Mrs Shillinglaw is buried, so I'll never know!!!!
Carole
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Oh, that's a shame about Mrs S Carole. :'(
I was getting the churches mixed up too. He gives a more precise address this time. (I've been busy today and haven't had much time, but will try to look up this address later).
Nat mentions his usual church but doesn't he flit around all over the place on Sundays? :-\
It must be SO frustrating for him to have had unsuitable weather for the past two Sunday's so he has been unable to take his long walks.
I was a little disappointed that this Sunday Nat didn't go into more/enough detail about what he got up to with Ann. ;)
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October 18th He's been to to the New Tottenham Court Chapel - is that where he usually looks looks for Mrs Skirricker? I can't rememeber ??? anyway he doesn't mention her I'm still holding out hopes that she might be Mary Shillinglaw of Windsor Street Islington buried at St Mary Islington 13 December 1846 aged 84.
Perhaps she wasn't there because she was ill? The worst bit is that the diary will end before Mrs Shillinglaw is buried, so I'll never know!!!!
Carole
Hi Carole
Hopefully we will find out ... Mary Shillinglaw is Buried on the 13th Dec. So she died prior to that date!
How long did it take from death to burial in those days? Mrs S was 'famous' for beng related to Bunyan so would her body have been laid out for viewing for a few days?
wobbly screen
deb
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Hi Deb,
Um, usually not too long I don't think - the following day perhaps? I'll check a few burials in PR's later - some give date of death as well as date of burial. ;) Mary Shillinglaw's only gives burial though. Not sure if she'd be laid out - she's not too important. ;)
Can you remember off hand what date Nat's diary finishes?
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Hi Ruskie :D
It finishes 12 Dec ! ...What will we do then :-\ ...Maybe start rereading it LOL ;D
deb
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Hi Ruskie :D
It finishes 12 Dec ! ...What will we do then :-\ ...Maybe start rereading it LOL ;D
deb
ooo! We might be in luck with Mrs S then. :D I suppose it depends on whether Nat gets the news of her death straightaway ... I really hope it's her!
12th December will be a VERY sad day. I think we'll have to re-read the diary in case we've missed anything.
Maybe the Westminster Archives will be able to use our help with research etc to get the diary published. ;)
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I live this word from today's entry:
"Carried on the same game as heretofore."
Nathaniel doesn't often us these 'antiquated' words.
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I live this word from today's entry:
"Carried on the same game as heretofore."
Nathaniel doesn't often us these 'antiquated' words.
Ruskie ...I LIVE it too! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Back to our old friend Mrs S - how about this?
Nottinghamshire Guardian
25 December 1856
Deaths
On the 11th instant, at Mr Selby's, Cromwell Street, Nottingham, aged 94, Mrs. Mary Sanigear, lineal descendant of John Bunyan.
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Death, Dec qtr 1856
Mary SANIGEAR
Nottingham 7b 102
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ooooooooooooooooooooo
that looks great, avm!! Let's investigate .... Nottingham, not where we expected to find her!
deb :)
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1851 census: HO107/1519/204/9
78 St John St. Road, Clerkenwell, Middlesex
Mary SANIGEAR Head Widow 90 Annuitant Bedfordshire Bedford
Eliza DURRANT Servant Unm 20 House servant Kent Bromley
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1841 census: HO107/665/2/28/10
Wills (or Mills?) Row, Islington [enumerated immediately after Sutton's Buildings]
Philip PHILLIPS 30 Plumber N
Lucy do 27 Milliner Y
Lucy FLETCHER 50 Ind Y
Elizabeth do 30 Milliner Y
______
Margaret JACOBS 25 F.S. N
Mary SANIGER 78 Ind N
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Nat was told that she was in her 80's
Mrs S died 1856 at the age of 94 = bc 1762
We had surmised that she was born in the 1760's ...
IGI extracted
Mary Bunyon d/o JOHN and Mary
11 MAY 1766 Saint Mary, Luton, Bedford
deb
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I live this word from today's entry:
"Carried on the same game as heretofore."
Nathaniel doesn't often us these 'antiquated' words.
Ruskie ...I LIVE it too! ;D ;D ;D ;D
ooops. sorry 'bout that. I'm a bit tired tonight .... :-[
Of course I mean love rather than live..... :P
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possible marriage
Mary BUNYON = Samuel LANIGEAR
23 FEB 1794 Spitalfields Christ Church, Stepney
IGI Extracted
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Wow! This is all looking very promising for Mrs S.
The old "L" and "S" mistranscription?
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possible marriage
Mary BUNYON = Samuel LANIGEAR
23 FEB 1794 Spitalfields Christ Church, Stepney
IGI Extracted
Brilliant! :D
Banns of marriage were published at Christ Church, Spitalfields between Samuel SANIGEAR, bachelor, and Mary BUNYAN, spinster, both OTP, on 26 Jan and 2 and 9 Feb 1794, with the marriage taking place on 23 Feb 1794.
Each signed the register in a nice clear hand, with Samuel producing lovely capital S's for both Samuel and Sanigear (so IGI def. a mistranscription).
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It's all fitting together very nicely! ;D
This is from Wiki:
"In 1628 John Bunyan was born to Thomas Bunyan and Margaret Bentley at Bunyan's End, in the parish of Elstow, Bedfordshire, England. Bunyan's End was located approximately halfway between the hamlet of Harrowden (one mile southeast of Bedford) and Elstow's High Street.
He is recorded in the Elstow parish register as having been baptised John Bunyan, on 30th November 1628".
Avm - How on earth did put two and two together and find Mrs S in Nottingham? ;D
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wooohooooo ;D
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Avm - How on earth did put two and two together and find Mrs S in Nottingham? ;D
Proceeding on the premise that Mrs S was a descendant of Bunyan and that this fact might be mentioned in any death notice, I searched the British Library 19th Century Newspapers database for "John Bunyan", narrowing the search to the "People" category so as to eliminate the many references to ships called "John Bunyan" and biographies of the great man.
I started out in the 1840s but no sign - moved to the 1850s where there were several announcements of the death of his last male descendant, Robert Bunyan, in Lincoln (27 Nov 1855, if you're interested) - and finally dear old Mrs Sanigear. ;)
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Is it Carole who is obsessed with Mrs S? She'll be over the moon!!!!!
Amazing detective work avm and Deb!
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Avm - How on earth did put two and two together and find Mrs S in Nottingham? ;D
I search the British Library 19th Century Newspapers database for "John Bunyan", narrowing the search to the "People" category so as to eliminate the many references to ships called "John Bunyan" and biographies of the great man.
I started out in the 1840s but no sign - moved to the 1850s where there were several announcements of the death of his last male descendant, Robert Bunyan, in Lincoln (27 Nov 1855, if you're interested) - and finally dear old Mrs Sanigear. ;)
I'm still amazed. ;D You're so clever!
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Good Grief ...how did Nat get Skirricker/Skillicker from Sanigear? ...maybe Sanigear was heard as SaniKER
deb
well done . avm !!!!!!
here's a few GOLD STARS for your forehead!!! ;D ;D
**********
deb
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Wow!!! That's amazing!!!!!
That really looks like her!
I've spent hours and hours (probably days and days) trying to work out what real name Skirricker could be. repeating it over and over again but I never thought of Sanigear.
I'm not sure how she fits into the Bunyan family. As I've read that there weren't any descendants with that name - at least not that far down the line ??? You'd think someone would have really researched the family and got them all sorted out.
Carole
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Maybe it was like Chinese whispers - the person who told Nat the surname got it slightly wrong and then perhaps Nat also misheard it ... etc ...
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well done . avm !!!!!!
here's a few GOLD STARS for your forehead!!! ;D ;D
Thanks, Deb, but as always a team effort to put the pieces together :)
Carole - I also thought we'd come to the conclusion that there weren't any descendants with the Bunyan name by the 1840s.
However, this was one of the (many) newspaper announcements of the death of Robert Bunyan:
Derby Mercury, 5 Dec 1855
[Deaths]
At his residence in the Cathedral Close, Lincoln, on Tuesday 27th, ult., Robert Bunyan, Esq., at the advanced age of 80. Mr Bunyan was the last male descendant of the immortal author of the "Pilgrim's Progress" and was the lineal descendant from the eldest son of John Bunyan. For many years Mr Bunyan filled the offices of county and city coroner, which some years since he resigned. Up to a very late period of his life he was an exceedingly active and stirring man, was passionately fond of agriculture, and had amassed considerable wealth.
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From http://schulers.com/books/jo/w/The_Works_of_John_Bunyan_Volume_1/The_Works_of_John_Bunyan_Volume_132.htm
"A lineal descendant of his was living, in 1847, at Islington, near London, aged eighty-four, Mrs. Senegar, a fine hearty old lady, and a Strict Baptist. She said to me, 'Sir, excuse the vanity of an old woman, but I will show you how I sometimes spend a very pleasant half-hour.' She took down a portrait on canvas of her great forefather, and propped it up on the table with a writing-desk, with a looking-glass by its side. 'There, Sir, I look at the portrait, and then at myself, and can trace every feature; we resemble each other like two pins.' 'Excepting the imperial and moustachios,' I replied; to which she readily assented. It was the fact that there was a striking family likeness between the picture and her reflection in the looking-glass."
Now I know what I'm looking for I can find her! ;D
She left a very brief PCC will. Mentioning her sister Amelia Bradley and her son Thomas Bradley. Also a neice Mary Ireland and a nephew (he must be her husband's) William Pegler Sanigear.
Carole
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Wonderful, Carole! Love the bit about the "moustachios". What's an "imperial" when it's at home?
Interesting about the "Strict Baptist" bit, too - hence all the chapel-going. I wonder where she was buried?
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I wonder what she was doing in Nottingham?
Maybe some of the Notts researchers may be able to help us find her grave. I imagine she would have had a headstone but it remains to be seen if it's till standing ... :-\
I wonder if this might be her parent's marriage:
John Bunyan = Mary Warren
23 Sept 1759
Luton
Bedford
(Mary appears to have a few siblings)
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She seems to have been "of Nottingham" for the purposes of her will & probate
http://tinyurl.com/3aebq5k
...so she apparently lived there at the end of her life and didn't expire during a visit.
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A Samuel SANIGEAR was one of the persons authorised by the Bank of England to sign bank notes of £1 and £2* (but not £5 and above), according to a Bank of England notice dated 22 Feb 1821, published in the London Gazette.
*I didn't know there had ever been a £2 note!
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There's a PCC Will for Samuel Sanigear that was proved in 1832. He was "of Chipping Sodbury" when he made the will in 1827.
All to wife Mary Sanigear.
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From .' She took down a portrait on canvas of her great forefather, and propped it up on the table with a writing-desk, with a looking-glass by its side. 'There, Sir, I look at the portrait, and then at myself, and can trace every feature; we resemble each other like two pins.' 'Excepting the imperial and moustachios,' I replied; to which she readily assented. It was the fact that there was a striking family likeness between the picture and her reflection in the looking-glass."
so now we know what MRS S looks like ...sans imperial and moustachios ;D ;D
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She seems to have been "of Nottingham" for the purposes of her will & probate
http://tinyurl.com/3aebq5k
...so she apparently lived there at the end of her life and didn't expire during a visit.
Um, that would be a big move for an 80+ year old - maybe she moved in with relatives who could take care of her.
Interesting find about Samuel Sanigear and the bank notes.
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so now we know what MRS S looks like ...sans imperial and moustachios ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D
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re The Bunyan family
Robert was the descendant from John Bunyan's eldest son.
who would Mary have come from... were Robert and Mary siblings?
deb
The IGI I posted earlier may be wrong ..in my haste I was thinkin Mary was the DAUGHTER of THE John Bunyan ....duh!!!! :-[ :-[ :-[
will look for others
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This looks better :D
submitted
Mary BUNYAN
born 1762 Nottingham, Nottingham
died; 11 DEC 1856
parents;
George BUNYAN and Mary HAYWARD
deb
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This looks better :D
submitted
Mary BUNYAN
born 1762 Nottingham, Nottingham
died; 11 DEC 1856
parents;
George BUNYAN and Mary HAYWARD
deb
But do we trust that submitter (who thinks she was born in Nottingham, when the 1851 shows Bedford)? ;)
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When she made her will on 22 October 1853 she was of Parliament Street Nottingham. The IGI have submitted entries for Mary b. 1762 Notts and Amelia Bunyan b. 1767 both d/o George Bunyan and Mary Haywood. The entries add that Mary married Mr Sanigear and Amelia married Thomas Bradley in 1792. The entries also have Thomas b. 1755, Elizabeth b.1763, William b.1764, Sarah b. 1765 and William b. 1766.
Tracing the family further back on the IGI gets a bit iffy.
Carole
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ahh true avm, true
deb
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Possible baptism for Robert (who died in Lincoln):
[IGI, extracted]
Baptism
28 Feb 1775, St Peter's at Arches, Lincoln
Robert BUNYAN, s/o Robert and Elizabeth
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Carole
You must be so excited ...now you even know what she looks like .. I wonder if someone could play with John Bunyan's picture ..take away the Moustachio and add a bonnet and cape !!
;D ;D
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Pallot's indexes a 1792 marriage for Amelia BUNYAN and Thomas BRADLEY in Ockbrook, Derbyshire.
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In 1851 sister Amelia Bradley was living Green Lane Ockbrook Derbyshire widowed aged 83 Pauper born Nottingham with her son Thomas Bradley unmarried aged 52 a frame work knitter born Derbyshire. RG0107 Piece 2141 Folio 386 Page 22. She was left £45 in Mary's will and Thomas £19 19s.
Carole
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Nottinghamshire, England, Extracted Parish Records:
George Bunyan, p. St. Mary = Mary Haywood, this p.
lic. 9 May 1754
deb
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Imperial - whiskers growing from both the upper lip and cheeks, curled upward (distinct from the royale, or impériale). - taken from 'The Order of The Moustache On Men Under 30 | Facebook'
However on most images of John Bunyan he seems to have only a moustache. It seems Napoleon III had an imperial which in his case was a tiny pointed beard which conflicts with the definition given above. :-\
I've now found another description of an imperial: A large mustache growing from both the upper lip and cheeks, whiskers from the cheeks are styled pointing upward.
So take yer pick from the above!
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Cannot believe that you have found Mrs Skirriker!
WOO HOO WELL DONE!!!!
[/b][/glow]
Carol, you must be very very happy!
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I've found a reference to a portrait of Bunyan (by Spilsbury) in which he is said to be sporting "mustache and imperial".
http://tinyurl.com/32obsd8
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I notice several portraits of Bunyan show him wearing a small tuft below his lower lip. Perhaps that is the "imperial" referred to.
Congratulations, avm, for finding Mrs. S. Her identity has also been a continuing puzzle for me, and I would have been extremely frustrated if she had not been traced before the diary ended.
Didy
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Nat's entry for 15th March was pretty accurate for Mrs. S's address according to the 1851 census.
"While there fell into conversation with an elderly lady who came on the same errand, and from her learnt that there is now living an old lady, a descendant and the last remaining of that great man, who is also a member of a dissenting chapel in King’s Head Court, Shoreditch, one end whereof leads to the High Street, and the other to Cumberland Street, Curtain Road, and she liveth somewhere in John’s Row, Clerkenwell or St Luke’s. This same lady has had tea with her twice, and she the said descendent by name Skillicker has now in her possession a painting of him."
Perhaps the Barnsbury Park house to which Nat followed her was just a regular Sunday visit to someone on her way home. The entry also refers to the portrait to which Mrs. S liked to compare herself.
Didy
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Nat's entry for 15th March was pretty accurate for Mrs. S's address according to the 1851 census.
"While there fell into conversation with an elderly lady who came on the same errand, and from her learnt that there is now living an old lady, a descendant and the last remaining of that great man, who is also a member of a dissenting chapel in King’s Head Court, Shoreditch, one end whereof leads to the High Street, and the other to Cumberland Street, Curtain Road, and she liveth somewhere in John’s Row, Clerkenwell or St Luke’s. This same lady has had tea with her twice, and she the said descendent by name Skillicker has now in her possession a painting of him."
Perhaps the Barnsbury Park house to which Nat followed her was just a regular Sunday visit to someone on her way home. The entry also refers to the portrait to which Mrs. S liked to compare herself. My theory is that Mrs S knew she was being followed and ducked into a 'safe house'. ;D
Didy
It's absolutely brilliant that this is all coming together so well. It would have been SO frustrating for Mrs S not to have been identified before the end of the diary.
[Now all we need to do is ID Ann Fox! ;) Over to you avm - you're on a roll! ;D]
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[Now all we need to do is ID Ann Fox! ;) Over to you avm - you're on a roll! ;D]
Ummm...yeah. I'll let you know. Don't hold your breath! I think Ann's deliberately a little mysterious ;)
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Dear all, I have always loved Soho and have spent a lot of time there over the years. Whenever I have lived outside of London, I have always touched base by having a coffee there (normally in Bar Italia) a couple os streets away from where NB lived. Yesterday my wife and I had lunch there then I had tea in a great tea room and even had my haircut in a barbers there (for only £5)! We also wandered up Dean St and looked at Richmond Buildings which I haven't noticed before. I shall load some pics soon. A lot of the building are pre-1846 so one can get a feel of life in NB's time. My point it that it felt extra special to be there yesterday, hanging out for an afternoon where my 3x great grandfather lived! I thought you'd all be pleased at me sharing this. Peace and joy. Steven.
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Dear all, I have always loved Soho and have spent a lot of time there over the years. Whenever I have lived outside of London, I have always touched base by having a coffee there (normally in Bar Italia) a couple os streets away from where NB lived. Yesterday my wife and I had lunch there then I had tea in a great tea room and even had my haircut in a barbers there (for only £5)! We also wandered up Dean St and looked at Richmond Buildings which I haven't noticed before. I shall load some pics soon. A lot of the building are pre-1846 so one can get a feel of life in NB's time. My point it that it felt extra special to be there yesterday, hanging out for an afternoon where my 3x great grandfather lived! I thought you'd all be pleased at me sharing this. Peace and joy. Steven.
Ah that's wonderful Steven. I think any of us who have been enjoying Nathaniel's diary would have similar feelings though of course for you it's extra special. ;)
Looking on google maps at the buildings in the area of Richmond Buildings I felt sure that many would have been standing during Nathaniel's time, so I'm glad you have confirmed this.
It's a bit spooky sometimes the pull an area has for people and it's not until they research their family history that they discover a connection with an ancestor who walked the same streets.
Looking forward to seeing your pictures, and please let us know any time you visit another of Nathaniel's haunts.
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I've been following this thread (as usual) and am as thrilled as everyone else about the finding of the illusive Mrs Skirriker!!
Keep up the good work......I'm riveted!!
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I just want to let the moderators know that I'm aware that we're up to page 20 on this thread.
I don't think we'll get too many posts this evening so I'll lock this and start Part 8 ( :o) :D in the morning as it's past the witching hour in my part of the world.
I hope this is OK. :)
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Going to slip this in before Rusky starts the new thread. Have been away for a bit and just catching up.
WTG Super job AVM and Carole that was great being able to match Mrs. S with the noted portait. Wooohoo.
Linda
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Going to slip this in before Rusky starts the new thread. Have been away for a bit and just catching up.
WTG Super job AVM and Carole that was great being able to match Mrs. S with the noted portait. Wooohoo.
Linda
Wonderful isn't it?!
I'm now locking this thread as we've reached 20 pages.
Everyone is welcome to join in the continuing discussion in Part 8 here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=490635.new