RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Glamis on Thursday 02 September 10 23:59 BST (UK)
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Hi, Can anyone tell me any pointers on this chap and the premises he had in Collins Street? It would be around 1870-1930'ish. My Grandmother resided with his household circa 1870/1890 at a guess; he left a property at Collins Street to her. This is a gap in our Granny's life. My Mother knows this much but no more. Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks. An address number would be a great help and any info on the Doctor? (My Mum will be 90 in December - this gives you a timeline for events)
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Your Dr Black may not have always practised at the premises in Collins Street. Do you have his year of death or any other identifying information?
Was he practising pre 1875?
http://www.medicalpioneers.com/
Sands & McDougall
1875
BLACK, Joseph [Physician] Bourke Street West
Died 1879 and there is a file on PROV http://www.prov.vic.gov.au/indexes/index_search.asp?searchid=54
1880
BLACK Dr Archibald G, 6 Alfred Place, Victoria Street, Carlton
BLACK Dr J G 15 Grattan Street, Carlton
Died Dec 1891 - no file on PROV
1896, 1897, 1898, 1911 Physicians & Surgeons
BLACK Archibald G 92 Victoria Street, Carlton
1915 - Physicians & Surgeons
BLACK Dr A G 432 St Kilda Road [Archibald Grant BLACK died 1943 aged 86 years at Caulfield Reg# 1962]
BLACK Dr J J 92 Victoria Street, Carlton
For further info I suggest you google Archibald Grant BLACK if you think he is you man and there are also quite a few snippets on
http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
including some items in the Victorian Government Gazette.
Cheers
Cando
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Hi Cando, Thanks so much for this lot. No, we have nothing. All Mum knows is her Mum lived with Dr Black in Australia when she was a child and he left a property to her. As Mum is 'mature' her memory may be remembering her Mother saying she lived with Dr Black at Collins Street or it may be he left the property to her at Collins Street. A bit ' fuggled' I know but allowances have to be made. It is a certain he left a property to her Mum- clarifying where is a question after the next question which is why she lived with Dr Black.
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What years are you referring to?
Cando
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Hi Cando, again we don't have much of a clue but it would be the years from approx 1870-1885. Cheers
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There is a very long and complcated will for a Thomas BLACK, Doctor of Medicine, died September 1894, resident 'Cintra', East St Kilda and also has a property with frontage 'on the south side of Collins St' and onto Swanston St. The city property is leased out and mortgaged, and has erected a four-storey building known as Victoria Buildings. There is no evidence, though, that he practised from this building.
People mentioned in the Will:
daughters: Elizabeth Hyndman HOGG, Jane Irwin ALDERSON, Isabella FIREBRACE and her husband Robert Tarver (Farver?) FIREBRACE,
son-in-law: Herbert MEYER,
sons: Charles Frederick BLACK, William BLACK and his wife Rebecca BLACK, Hugh Leathem BLACK,
grand-daughters: Beatrice Ethel MEYER (dau of Herbert), Florence Elizabeth BLACK (dau of William I think), Julia CHOMLEY and her husband Arthur Wolfe CHOMLEY, 3 daughters of Elizabeth Hyndman HOGG: Edith Elizabeth DOBBIE, Amy and Ina HOGG,
grandsons: Edward Hall ALDERSON,
sister: Sarah BLACK,
Mentions that his son/s are well set up in New Zealand which is why they get less than the others.
There are quite few mentions on the NLA digi newspapers site
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/
I wonder if any of these names are meaningful to you?
Judith
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JudB, Thanks so very much for this. I'll pass it by My Mum- she may recall some if not one but there again her Mum would have been around 12-14 when she resided with Dr Black. It was with his household she learnt to play the piano and became more than accomplished at it- 'ACTL' what ever that is aged 14.
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JudB has given you some good information there
Perhaps if you can tell us your grandmothers name we might find some reference to her.
Her name and aged and parents etc was she married in Australia????
thanks Jenn
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"Cintra" at 423 St Kilda Road was also the home of Archibald Grant BLACK...wonder what the relationship was with Thomas.... Archibald's parents were James BLACK and Margaret GRANT and brother of Dr J G Black.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5925333/251099?searchTerm=archibald%20grant%20black#pstart251099
Death registration
BLACK Thomas
Father Thomas Mother Jane TREWIN
95 years at St Kilda 1894 Reg#11308
Cheers
Cando
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Tropical and Cando- again, Thanks to you too for both. I am astounded at your expertise and the finds you turn up. Well, This poses the question which Dr Black I suppose? I'll have to ask Mum to think back on that one. She may recall a christian name- who knows. Her Mother was Olive Te Akau Hickson. It is my understanding (to be clarified) she was married in NZ to John George Herbert Hankins but that's another story.... as you will know.
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A look at a tree or two in cyber space has Olive being born in 1883 is that correct?
If so she would be hard pressed to be in service prior to that ;D
Jenn
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I see abirth in New Zealand
reg no 1883/2313
name Hickson Mary Te Akau
Jenn
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You seem quite certain that she was left a house in Victoria but do you know when might have been?
Jenn
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Hi Tropical, I have been stumped looking for a birth, marriage or a death for Olive but as you have found a birth for Mary Te Akau, I believe this is it. You've jolted a memory as I believe she was Olive Mary Te Akau Hankins nee Hickson. Her Mother was Louisa Rui Hickson nee Cook. As far as the 'in service' bit goes. This is a new one. I don't think this is the case but I stand to be corrected. Mum assumes that Dr Black was somehow a friend of the family in NZ and as he had sons in NZ this is entirely possible. Which one connected to the Hicksons is a new question. The house bequest is a story Mum recounts because she understood it was sold at some point back in the ? 1930s to recoup funds during the Great depression then.
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I have modified my ealier post about the Will as Herbert MEYER is his son-in-law not his son. There is a mention of the 'late' wife of Herbert MEYER, but no name for her; it would appear that Beatrice Ethel MEYER is the daughter of Herbert MEYER.
He says he has given the sons 'two fully stocked stations in New Zealand and some thousands of pounds from time to time in my lifetime'.
Judith
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Hi JudB, Mum has just read the Will info Re: Thomas Black. No one on it is anyone she recalls any discussions about. Neither the revision you have added. Its all a bit of a mystery. Maybe its the wrong Dr Black we're looking at? If Dr Thomas Black died 1893 then Olive Mary would have been 13. Mum says her Mother got this 'ATCL' which meant she could teach music at 14 years old, I don't think it can have been Dr Thomas Black- maybe one of his son's then?
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A few more snippets:
According to notices in the digitised newspaper site (using search for Black St Kilda Cintra):
- The son-in-law Herbert MEYER was from Canterbury NZ (marriage 1861)
The marriage of Jane Irwin BLACK (1862) to Francis John ALDERSON took place in Dunedin.
Son William was with the National Bank of Australasia in 1878
Thmas' wife died 2 February 1874 (no first name given)
It could well be that he is not the right Dr Black. The connections to New Zealand may be only a co-incidence. Perhaps the Dr Black's practice was in Collins St and he lived elsewhere??
Judith
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Mmmm, JudB- Thanks. I do think we may need to look sideways for another Dr Black although Mum is adamant he was a Doctor in Melbourne- she has just gone having read your last snippets. She confirms her Mother was known by her 2nd name as many were- Mary. Olive Mary Te Akau is 'our' lady. The children; Mum and her siblings said that if they referred to her as 'Ollie' she would be riled, this they did by way of humour and family banter. ;D
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marriage in NZ
reg no 1906/4161
Bride Olive Mary Hickson
Groom John George Herbert Hawkins
Hawkins would appear to be a mistranslation
births up to 1910
reg no 1907/21783
name Hankins John Annesley
mother Olive Mary
father John George Herbert
1910/552 Hankins Bryan Dalrymple
mother Olive Mary
father George John Herbert
Jenn
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So if she was born in 1883 and married in 1906 somehwere in those years she came to Australia and lived with a Dr. Black who died when??? and left her property/house? in Collins Street in Melbourne that was sold in the 1930's
Jenn
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Tropical- well found and yes, exactly that. I / My mum have nothing else to go by. If Olive Mary Te Akau was born in 1883 and got this 'ACTL' whilst in Dr Black's household aged 14; that would be 1897, there has to be a register of 'ACTL' graduees somewhere. Maybe, this will provide a better timeline? Is there anyone who knows what 'ACTL' means? I can only think it begins Accredited Teacher of Classical....' or ' Associate Teacher of Classical ...'? Mum says Olive Mary was a concert pianist.
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"Cintra" at 423 St Kilda Road was also the home of Archibald Grant BLACK...wonder what the relationship was with Thomas.... Archibald's parents were James BLACK and Margaret GRANT and brother of Dr J G Black.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5925333/251099?searchTerm=archibald%20grant%20black#pstart251099
Death registration
BLACK Thomas
Father Thomas Mother Jane TREWIN
95 years at St Kilda 1894 Reg#11308
Cheers
Cando
Dr Thomas BLACK owned land on the corner of Collins and Swanston Street. - Informative and interesting -
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8705438?searchTerm=Thomas+Black
Cnr of Collins and Swanston Street was the site of the now demolished Queen Victoria Buildings....certainly not a house property :D The buildings were erected six years prior to Dr Thomas Black's death.
The south east corner of Collins and Swanston Streets is now known as City Square
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Square,_Melbourne
http://www.walkingmelbourne.com/building604.html
Dr. Thomas Black; Member 1858,1859 Philosophical Institute of Victoria St. Kilda, Vic, Australia
Dr. Thomas Black; Member 1860 Royal Society of Victoria, St. Kilda, Vic, Australia
Looking further afield away from the CBD -
Sands & McDougall 1865
BLACK Thomas MD Surgeon Cnr Robe and Wellington Streets, St Kilda
Sands & McDougall 1875, 1885, 1888, 1892
BLACK Thomas Chapel Street, St Kilda Physician
At St Kilda Cemetery
On 2 Feb 1874 at Cintra, St Kilda
Charlotte, wife of Thomas BLACK MD, aged 74 years
Thomas BLACK M.D., F.R.C.S.
Died 15 Sep 1894
There are a number of HOGG burials at the same location.
Cando
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Long post with lots of info and then locked out and lost the lot :(
Briefly -
Google Dr Thomas Black and there are many items related to the property at Collins and Swanston street. There were numerous beneficiaries and were many Supreme Court hearings relating to value of property. In 1895 the executors of Thomas Black's estate valued the property at £103,000.
One snippet
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/10496136?searchTerm=dR+THOMAS+BLACK
Thomas and Charlotte BLACK had 8 children the many newspaper reports indicate that there were numerous beneficiaries although names are not mentioned. Perhaps your grandmother was one of the many beneficiaries when the property was eventually sold.
Cando
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Re ACTL
I'm not sure yet but I have just spoken with several elderly forebears who obtained ALCM in the 1920's and 30's in NSW. (ALCM being Associate of the London College of Music). They all feel that ACTL was
"A" for Associate, ie indicating FEMALE "C" for Classical "T" for Teaching/Teacher "L" for Licence
They are fairly certain ACTL was the certificate issued from London, but are not sure if the LCM would have been the issuing authority, in the late 19th C, but it certainly was the issuing authority in the 1920's and later. Theory and practical examinations were held annually and students needed to pass both before they were promoted to the next grade. Many NSW graduates at 9th grade and higher would then try out for the Sydney Con.
I realise this info is several decades later than your lass' likely graduation but it is the best I can offer, Sorry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_College_of_Music
There's hundreds of references to the London College of Music Examinations in the Oz online newspapers. http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home
Have you checked the NZ Papers Past website laterly, its regularly updated ;D
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast
(Similar issues here Cando in trying to post this)
Cheers, JM
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Perhaps the intials of the qualification have been transposed by Glamis :-\
Associate (A.T.C.L.) Performing Diploma is from Trinity College London.
Cando
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Did Olive Mary HANKINS die in NZ ?
not sure if you are from NZ or if your mother moved from there
If your grandmother was a concert pianist you would think there would be some mention of it and there would be family heirlooms to substainiate the story?
We will keep looking
Jenn
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Hi All, Like you, I too had problems getting on the sight last night. It was completely jammed. Anyway, Thanks again for your input. If Dr Thomas Black is 'our' man then my Grandmother would have been just 10 years old on his death. I feel to air on the side of caution because if he was a widower and elderly at that, I doubt he'd be taking charge of a minor but who knows. Anyway, Majm- Thanks, it is great to have the 'ACTL' sorted out a bit better. Mum has always said it but never knew what it actually stood for. (Olive Mary died in NZ in 1954 NZ BDM Death Reg 1954/21972) Tropical, I too have looked in NZ Past papers for Concert pianists but as yet haven't found her mentioned. Mum says when she was 5 years old she recalls her Mother seated at a piano practising her works. Chopin's Etudes and Schuman in particular. As for the piano and sheets of music- long gone. The Depression saw to that. She believes her concert pianist days must have been before she married and had her 4 children.
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It would appear that Olive commenced her musical examinations in New Zealand...
Junior pass in 1894
TRINITY COLLEGE MUSICAL EXAMINATIONS.
Wanganui Chronicle, Volume XXXVIII, Issue 12120, 29 September 1894, Page 2
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09pf/
TRINITY COLLEGE RESULTS.
Wanganui Chronicle, Volume XLIII, Issue 15000, 3 September 1898, Page 2
and
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09ph/
and passing her Senior Grade.
MUSICAL EXAMINATIONS.
Wanganui Herald, Volume XXXIII, Issue 9916, 16 December 1899, Page 2
Miss Olive Hickson intends opening a kindergarten and is going through a thorough course of kindergarten work.......l
Evening Post, Volume LXIII, 27 January 1902, Page 4
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09pk/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09pj/
Cheers
Cando
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And her music teacher named in both those stories was MISS BLACK ???
Perhaps that's where the name is remembered from & music teacher Miss Black a member of the Black family from VIC to NZ :-\
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Yes I noticed that Merlin... ;D However she would be quite elderly as Dr Thomas BLACK's children were born commencing 1833...and I have attemtped to trace them but haven't posted my findings...thought it was too much info ::) Could be a grand daughter of Thomas :-\ I suppose I am just trying to validate what information we have been given. Family stories are often distorted with the telling.
Cheers
Cando
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Cando and Merlin- Thanks and well found. I had no idea my Grandmother was also a Kindergarten teacher, if she did indeed follow it through.
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Yes she appeared to if you read the advertisements...and then were quite a few more. I haven't posted all of them.
Olive appeared to receive her music education in New Zealand.
Her marriage
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09pl/
Cheers
Cando
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A few points -
*There does not appear to be a shipping record to and from Australia for Olive.
*It is certainly doubtful that Olive gained a piano teaching qualification in Australia as she only passed her junior exam in New Zealand in 1894.
*A trawl through all the Olive HICKSON newspaper items sadly does not reveal anything of her musical career.
*The Melbourne CBD Collins Street property which according to the terms of Dr Thomas BLACK's will, was to remain leased and the many beneficiaries were to receive the income as part of their annuity. The property was valued by the executors in 1895 at £130,000. The many newspaper items reporting the hearings at the Supreme Court of Victoria indicate there were legal difficulties executing the terms of the will. The property does not appear to have been left to your grandmother. I note that Dr Archibald Grant BLACK appeared before a Taxation hearing in 1933 in regard to land tax on a property he had inherited, the rental of which was distributed. I wonder if there is some sort of connection with the sale of this property. I have tried to find a connection for Dr Archibald BLACK and his brother Dr John G BLACK, sons of Mr James BLACK, with Dr Thomas BLACK, but to date no connection. Strange that both Dr Archibald and Dr Thomas lived in homes named 'Cintra'.
Family stories are an extremely valuable resource but invariably they are often a tad inaccurate or the facts have become distorted over time. I am only attempting to help find the facts.
And that's about it from me...time for bed.
Cheers
Cando
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Oh Great find Cando, I have been looking for that and it may link to another thing my Mother keeps going on about- All Saints Church. As for Dr Black, are you sure this is the chap? I wonder if it could be a different man as I suggested a son or may be a different sort of Dr? As for my Grandmother's music career, I think it is possible 'life' may have curtailed it; marriage and children then the Great Depression. This is the only reference to a solo performance I can find so far.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=NZT18980107.2.48&srpos=10&e=-------10--1----0miss+mary+hickson--
Ps- Good night and Thanks again
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I just asked Mum if she was aware her Mother was intending to open a kindergarten. She said this was not a suprising issue because she'd been involved with Sir Truby King's concerns on welfare and also the Plunket Movement! How weird this is; she's never mentioned this before. It seems Olive Mary Te Akau was a philanthropist. I haven't found specific mention of her but these links below give you some background to the cause.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=EP19390515.1.5&e=-------10--1----0sir+truby+king--
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=EP19380212.1.10&e=-------10--21----0sir+truby+king--
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19350810.2.168&srpos=30&e=-------10--21----0sir+truby+king--
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=TS19010607.2.48&srpos=8&e=-------10--1----0plunkett+nursing--
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=KT19160701.2.21&srpos=4&e=-------10--1----0plunkett+nursing--
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=TH19080613.2.67&srpos=5&e=-------10--1----0plunket+movement--
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Well done Cando.....
I found it hard to conceive the possibility of her coming to Australia when her mother had a large number of children younger than Olive at home all boys the other older girl having died young. At least one son died in WW1 and another did in Africa in 1900 perhaps in one of the so called Boer Wars.
Family folktales do have an element of truth but also fiction involved.
A possible scenario is that the Miss Black she trained under perhaps had wealthy connections in Australia and as social climbing was prolific she may have grabbed on to her coat-tails so to speak.
Like Cando I could not find her coming or going to Australia and if CAndo who has obviously spent a long time on this hasn't found it either it leads me to doubt the story in its entirety
Jenn
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Must ask without appearing to be rude that is not my intent but how did you come to the conclussion
It seems Olive Mary Te Akau was a philanthropist.
here is her parents marriage
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=MH18790715.2.9&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----0hickson+louisa--
Jenn
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Well done Cando.....
I found it hard to conceive the possibility of her coming to Australia when her mother had a large number of children younger than Olive at home all boys the other older girl having died young. At least one son died in WW1 and another did in Africa in 1900 perhaps in one of the so called Boer Wars.
Family folktales do have an element of truth but also fiction involved.
Tropical, can you please qualify this- especially about an ' older girl having died young'? Olive Mary Te Akau was born from Hicksons and Cooks who are numerous and were as prolific as most Victorians. Her Marriage announcement states she was the only daughter of her father. If there was an older daughter, this is news to me/my Mum.
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1881/16205 Hickson Florence Louise
mother Louisa father Richard
she died in 1891 aged 10
adeath in the paper to confirm it
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=MH18910616.2.8&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----0Hickson+Florence+--
Jenn
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Jenn I find that the most difficult research is attempting to validate family stories. After receiving two not very pleasant pm's some time ago from a chatter who didn't agree with the facts I had found, I no longer post all that I find, just point the person in hopefully, the right direction to find the information for themselves.
Glamis I will leave it you to you pursue the history of the family of Dr Thomas BLACK. The sons according to the Will were well set up in New Zealand which is the reason they get less than the others. Have you read all the links and downloaded Dr BLACK's Will?
My ancestors who lived in East St Kilda, were involved with All Saints [Church of England]Anglican Church, albeit it some time after the establishment, so have quite a lot of information on file.
All Saints Church, in East St. Kilda, owes its existence to the Rev John Herbert Gregory, who started the movement for the erection of the church in the latter end of 1857. The land, on which the church stands, had then been reserved as a Church of England site for building purposes by the Government. The first trustees of the land were Dr Thomas Black [of Cintra], Sir George Stephen, Alexander George Dumas, John Dudley, and W. Cann. Designs for the church were invited, and two plans were sent in.
Perhaps you can search for more information/facts to confirm you mother's story. I think it is a good idea to do all the basic research into the bdm's, electoral rolls, Wills, Parish records etc. and then try to put the 'meat on the bones'.
Cheers
Cando
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Dear Both, Tropical first, Thanks for the link re: Louise. I am left quite saddened by that and will now want to search her last resting place. Thanks also Cando, Yes, I've looked at the links but no I haven't downloaded the Will for Thomas Black. Suffice to say,I know Olive Mary did go to Melbourne and as a consequence found her gifts with music and children. Thank you both.
Just to say that what I have found so far about my Great Aunt was her full name was Florence Louisa Hickson- she died 14/06/1891.
I have no idea what from or why and I'd really like to know where she is laid to rest. As Olive Mary was 8 years old when her sister died, she'd be fully aware of all the emotion etc. I surmise that this may be why she had her interest in the welfare of children re: Plunkett and Sir Truby King.
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From what I have read Olive Mary's parents were not poor folk, the father had a position at one point as a civil servant so one would think that the sister Florence death would not relate to child of poor people or in need off any state welfare......... who knows a crystall ball would beneifit all of our research.
Does your mother remember any of her uncles???????? there may be still quite a bit of family in NZ by the number of brothers
Jenn
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Thanks Tropical, No, they were quite well placed but remember these were times when folk used their initiatives and skills having left the 'home lands'. Yes, Mum recalls all Uncles and we sat down yesterday and she ticked them off on a list and married up their respective wives. We didn't go so far to do the children she recalled but will do another day.
Uncles list-:
Wilfred,
Harold,
Lesley,
Keith
Arthur
I found two male children one died at 7 hours old and another at 3 months in 1885. ( Possibly twins) Won't post the refs until I learn more. If they are siblings to Olive Mary and her Sister and their brothers then that is more sadness for Olive and Louisa.
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Dear Both, Tropical first, Thanks for the link re: Louise. I am left quite saddened by that and will now want to search her last resting place. Thanks also Cando, Yes, I've looked at the links but no I haven't downloaded the Will for Thomas Black. Suffice to say,I know Olive Mary did go to Melbourne and as a consequence found her gifts with music and children. Thank you both.
Just to say that what I have found so far about my Great Aunt was her full name was Florence Louisa Hickson- she died 14/06/1891.
I have no idea what from or why and I'd really like to know where she is laid to rest. As Olive Mary was 8 years old when her sister died, she'd be fully aware of all the emotion etc. I surmise that this may be why she had her interest in the welfare of children re: Plunkett and Sir ruby King.
Plunkett Society was founded in 1907 Dr Frederic Truby King who was a medical superintendent and lecturer in mental diseases. This was 5 years after Mary's advertisement to attract pupils to her kindergarten. Possibly her interest was prompted after the birth of her children.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/09ps/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plunket_Society
Thanks Tropical, No, they were quite well placed but remember these were times when folk used their initiatives and skills having left the 'home lands'. Yes, Mum recalls all Uncles and we sat down yesterday and she ticked them off on a list and married up their respective wives. We didn't go so far to do the children she recalled but will do another day.
Glamis
May I suggest you also research the information on the various bdm websites where possible and detail all the registration numbers etc into your family history programme.
We are now moving away from you inital request for information on Dr BLACK and a property in Collins Street. Long threads going off on tangents often deter others from helping and as you are no longer seeking information on a family in Australia, perhaps place your family requests on the NZ board and link this thread to save duplicate searching.
Cheers :)
Cando
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No Cando- her first born was in 1907; Sir Truby Kings beginnings and Yes- NZ is right for the remainder of this but actually I do still need to clarify the Dr Black mystery which is in Melbourne! Thanks very much for all so far though.Any more ideas re: Dr Black? I really can't see it as Dr Thomas Black.
Got to get some Zzzds now. Night night.
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Thanks Tropical, No, they were quite well placed but remember these were times when folk used their initiatives and skills having left the 'home lands'. Yes, Mum recalls all Uncles and we sat down yesterday and she ticked them off on a list and married up their respective wives. We didn't go so far to do the children she recalled but will do another day.
Uncles list-:
Wilfred,
Harold,
Lesley,
Keith
Arthur
I found two male children one died at 7 hours old and another at 3 months in 1885. ( Possibly twins) Won't post the refs until I learn more. If they are siblings to Olive Mary and her Sister and their brothers then that is more sadness for Olive and Louisa.
I find this an interesting statement as Olive Mary 's folk were New Zealand born and bred as well as her parents etc as it would appear they had Maori heritage.
It is all well and good to summarise and fanatsise about why our forebears did this and that. However there is still nothing to prove she went to Australia when it has been pointed out that she learnt the piano in NEW ZEALAND from a Miss Black
Jenn
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Hi, Can anyone tell me any pointers on this chap and the premises he had in Collins Street? It would be around 1870-1930'ish. My Grandmother resided with his household circa 1870/1890 at a guess; he left a property at Collins Street to her. This is a gap in our Granny's life. My Mother knows this much but no more. Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks. An address number would be a great help and any info on the Doctor? (My Mum will be 90 in December - this gives you a timeline for events)
another thing my Mother keeps going on about- All Saints Church
Glamis
Dr Thomas BLACK
Property in Collins Street - with many beneficiaries possibly not sold until after Land tax 'hearing' in 1933.
All Saints Anglican Church St Kilda - The first trustees of the land were Dr Thomas Black [of Cintra],
Three sons, Charles, Frederick and Hugh stated as 'well set up in NZ'
I really can't see it as Dr Thomas Black
Glamis
We can only give you information/facts as we find them.
My Grandmother resided with his household circa 1870/1890 at a guess; he left a property at Collins Street to her.
Glamis
I find it odd that you didn't know the year of birth [1883] of your grandmother. Even if your mother was unable to help you, her death certificate would have given you this information. Surely you mother would have known the age of her mother at death.
Mum says her Mother got this 'ATCL' which meant she could teach music at 14 years old
Glamis
Mary appeared to receive most of her piano tuition in New Zealand with her junior exam in 1894 in NZ aged 11 years so the story of obtaining an "ACTL" in Australia is not plausible. Mary didn't pass her senior exams until 1899 aged 16 years so wouldn't have been qualified to teach at 14 years of age. I do wonder could the 'ACTL" actually be Associate [A.T.C.L.] Performing Diploma from Trinity College London.
I would suggest doing the factual family research.....purchase some certs.....lost of resources online in NZ....and then 'put the meat on the bones'. Glamis we are all capable of searching the online NZ bdm's so really no need to post your research here....as I mentioned, going off a tangents often deters others from helping....as is reading long wordy posts. :-[
Good luck :)
Cando
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What an amzing story. I was spellbound. I dont have any info sorry, just started reading and couldnt stop. Isnt genealogy great :)
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Most of the marriage notices of Dr Thomas's children were at All Saints, East St Kilda. It is on the corner of Dandenong Rd and Chapel St.
If you googlemap you can see Cintra Ave off Chapel St and there is a big house just to the south of Cintra Ave on Chapel St. This big house is now part of St Michaels School, and certainly looks old enough to be the Cintra of Dr Thomas. You can get a street view of the house by clicking on the red tear-drop thingy - drag it along to look at the house. Wonder if your mum recognises it??
Judith
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Hi Judith :)
'Cintra' is listed as demolished and its location was Chapel Street, south west cnr Charlotte Street, in the vicinity of what is now Cintra Avenue. Melways 58 D8. It was Glamis's grandmother who visited Aus. I am not going to pursue this search as there appears to be some doubt about our finds and it has been a time consuming search...well for me.
Cheers ;D
Cando
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Dear All, Thanks again for all your input. Odd as you find it Cando, that my Mum didn't know her Mother's date of birth nor did I, but this is true and it is only in the last year her Mother's Maori names- Te Akau have been reawakened from her memory vaults. There in lies the current day problem. Remember my Mum will be 90 her self soon and she is a long way from home and is recalling info from days long gone. Therefore allowances need to be made. The wealth of history she holds is only adding to our own wealth in knowledge and it is a privilege to be able to talk directly to a person who has experience of life at these times. Getting back to the question posed of which Dr Black and which property at Collins street in Melbourne?' You're pointers JudB are most helpful. I will look at these. I have rechecked the situation with my Mother's account of things- yes, her Mum did reside with a Dr Black and yes, a Dr Black did leave a property to her in Collins Street, Melbourne but no, she did not live in Melbourne she stayed in NZ. This tightens things up far better. It may have been one of these sons; either Charles, Frederick or Hugh perhaps? Thanks Cando. The NZ posting board is better to search these options further with regard to the question of which Dr Black but obviously not with regard to the question of the property.
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Just to say, I have found reference to Dr Thomas Black having another son William http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=TS18931214.2.18&srpos=51&e=-------10--51----0Dr+Black--
Further on from that and another article a list of Doctors inclusive of Sir Truby King, I believe perhaps the Dr Black associated with my Grandmother is perhaps the Professor mentioned in the article?
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=ST18910309.2.18&srpos=140&e=-------10--131----0Dr+Black-
It appears he did have connections with Melbourne and I think the difficulties lie with the name of Black and the fact that there were many Doctor Blacks.
The links below demonstrate this. Again, knowing which Dr Black was The Dr Black is the question:-
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=TT18881020.2.7&srpos=530&e=-------10--521----0Dr+Black--
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=ODT18800618.2.23&srpos=412&e=-------10--411----0Dr+Black--
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What makes you think that Dr Thomas BLACK had two sons named William? I can't follow your reasoning. Re-read the thread...William's occupation has already been posted. Not your Professor Black.
Cando
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As you say your mother is 90 and you have to make allowances for that fact.
Perhaps if there was a property your grandmother was left in Melbourne and the time frame given by you I feel has now been discounted by the various newspaper clippings on her muscial achievements in New Zealand, you could try a different tack as find the solicitor who must have handled the beguest eiher in Australia or New Zealand
Do you have any knowledge of where abouts your grandparents lived in the 1930's
When did you mother leave NZ to go to the UK???
Jenn
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Oh Great- Thanks Tropical, This is indeed sensible direction. I will have to ask because they lived and had links with:-Wellington, Auckland and Palmerston North. The firm of solicitors may have well been the family firm ; that of Hankins, Fitzherbert and Abrahams. It is now Fitzherbert Rowe but no family links remain with the modern firm. I am very grateful for this forethinking. I'll ask Mum.
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Hi All
This has indeed been an interesting thread to watch.
We are fortunate in some instances to have living memory as a guide to the past.
We must remember it is only a guide and the holders of those memories may themselves have been told confused tales of various sorts.
When confronted with the factual information the memories, which seemed so correct at the time, can be revised... as in your case GLAMIS when your mother (doing her best to help) realised that the trip to Australia did not after all happen.
We are fortunate to have such wonderful resources in Australia and NZ and in this forum, such wonderful brains to consult and intererpet them.
Again, thanks for a good tale!! ;D
Sue
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Thanks Sparret for all you say and glad you have found this interesting. Tropical, I asked about the Law firm and who dealt with the sale of the property and whilst it is the most likely event that the family firm would have done the necessary there is no proof. I have looked through various websites and on NZ Archives but can't see if there is an archive about property sales and deeds etc. It may be me but if anyone does know where to look I'd be very grateful.
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Here is your connection: Miss F. E. Black, music teacher, was the granddaughter of Dr Thomas Black.
http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-Cyc01Cycl-t1-body-d4-d172-d20.html
It seems she was the only daughter of Hugh Latham Black judging by this article:
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=WH19070617.2.107&srpos=1&e=-------10--1-byDA---2Florence+E.+black--
Florence may have passed away in 1909. Given that she seems not to have married and had no siblings, it's not impossible that she left something to a student she was close to.
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Jorose, I could hug you with joy and sincere Thanks because if you scroll down to the bottom of the 2nd article it lists Mrs Blacks relatives who are my Mother's Grandfather and Great Uncles: Mrs Black was a Hickson and as such;my Mother's Great Aunt, Olive Mary's Aunt and Miss F E Black was my Grandmother's cousin!!!!! Well found. Yippee. xxxxxxx I have told my Mum and this was like watching a light bulb switch on. She simply said 'Oh yes, that's it' and then a laugh...
This now completes the 2 questions which have lead this wonderful part of the journey. I/We now know which Dr Black and what his connection to Olive Mary was and then which house he lived in which is Cintra, Melbourne. I Thank all who have helped thus far. I am very grateful.
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An excellent find Jorose
tying the two families together, allthough being honest nothing to prove she wa left anything from Dr. Black as I have reread the document and no beguest to Olive Mary.
Perhaps as you have stated your mothers memory is not all that good and needs a gentle push in the right direction, you need to ask your mother could she have been left monies by Miss Black who was her cousin.
Are New Zealand willis online???
Florence's Death notice
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=WH19090528.2.16&srpos=7&e=--1908---1909--10-WH-1-byPU---0Hugh+Black--
Jenn
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Hi Tropical, Yes all of this, Sadly, Wills are not available online. I'm asking about the situation though.
Thanks again.
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Thanks Tropical, No, they were quite well placed but remember these were times when folk used their initiatives and skills having left the 'home lands'. Yes, Mum recalls all Uncles and we sat down yesterday and she ticked them off on a list and married up their respective wives. We didn't go so far to do the children she recalled but will do another day.
Uncles list-:
Wilfred,
Harold,
Lesley,
Keith
Arthur
I found two male children one died at 7 hours old and another at 3 months in 1885. ( Possibly twins) Won't post the refs until I learn more. If they are siblings to Olive Mary and her Sister and their brothers then that is more sadness for Olive and Louisa.
On this point I am surprised given your interest in family research and the fact that your mum is still alive and albeit rather muddled on occassion that you haven't delved into her Aunts and Uncles to gleem any knowledge she might have of them. I wonder if she rembers being told that one of them died in WW1 and one in Africe in 1900 (there must be a story in that )
I also noted that Miss Black also taught music to Cora Hickson who would have been Olive Mary's cousin.
Jenn
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Hi Glamis,
Good to read you have reconsidered things in light of the recorded and factual material found by CANDO and JENN.
Easy to be adamant in the face of a convincing oral saga ;D
There is no doubt they rate with the best and most experienced in the Rchat team
The story, as unfolded by them for you and the other great workers makes much more sense now.
Sue
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Hi Both, I am aware of much with regard to family members and have looked at records for various of them because they have in one way or another been left with a vague history requiring clarity or some tale which seems to hold a hidden gem. I Thank You again for your interest and wonderful help in all.
Just thought I'd add this find- it provides more revelation in that The Hickson's married twice into the Black family with a double wedding; 2 Aunts of Olive Mary. Aunt Mary Sarah to Hugh and Aunt Frances Elizabeth to Charles.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~babznz/pearlmarriage.html
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=DSC18550626.2.8
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I am a great-great-granddaughter of Dr Black - my great grandfather was Charles Frederick Black and my great grandmother was Frances Elizabeth Hickson. I have a wealth of information about the Black family and the Hickson family if you would like the full information!
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Wow- Yes please and Thank you. This makes us distant cousins then. My Grandfather married Olive Mary Hickson in 1906, she was a daughter of Richard and Louisa Hickson. Aunts Mary Sarah and Frances Elizabeth were Richard's sisters.
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Maybe you should ask me specific questions if I can help. Here's a start - Charles Frederick and Hugh Leatham Black were married to the two Hickson sisters in a double wedding in 1855 in Auckland. The Hicksons family are a 'Fencible' family - there is plenty on the web re the Fencibles. The Fencibles were retired soldiers who were recruited to come to NZ to defend Auckland from the Maori in the early days. Captain John Annesley Hickson was in charge of a troops coming to NZ in 1848. He had a large family and was the father of the two sisters (Mary Louisa and Frances Elizabeth). His wife was Elizabeth Pleasant (nee) Williams.
What I found interesting is that Elizabeth and Dr Black's wife Charlotte were actually cousins. All of them came from what is now Northern Ireland. In those days there was a very small 'pool' of suitable people for these middle class families to marry into - so not surprising that these four were married.
Miss Florence Black was a music teacher of some renown - she was the daughter of Hugh and Mary, never married. Here is an article about her: If you google Wanganui Music Socieity you will probably find it with a photo.
Black, Miss F. E., Teacher of the Piano and Singing and the Theory of Music, “The Oaks,” River Bank, Wanganui. Miss Black was born in Melbourne at the residence of her grandfather, Dr. Thomas Black, of “Cintra,” St. Kilda, and accompanied her parents to Auckland while still an infant. She was a pupil of Mr. J. H. Beale while in Auckland, and subsequently in Wellington of Mr. J. A. Edwards, who was at one time conductor and choirmaster of All Saints' Church, St. Kilda, Melbourne, which was reputed to have the best choir in the Australian colonies. Miss Black was pianist to the Choral Society of Wellington, of which Mr. Elwards was conductor. Miss Black studied singing and voice-production under Signor Carmini Morley, and subsequently returned to Auckland, where she was a pupil of Mr. Angelo Forrest, one of the best pianists in the Colony. For ten years Miss Black taught music in the Girls' High School in Wellington, Mr. Parker and herself being the first teachers appointed to give musical instruction in that school. During her residence in Wellington, Miss Black taught at St. Mary's Convent for four or five years. While resident in Auckland she taught at the Girls' High School. She has resided in Wanganui since 1893, and during the year 1894 was one of the teachers at the Boys' Collegiate School. Sh is one of the appointed teachers on the staff of the Girls' College. Miss Black has been very successful in training pupils for the Trinity College examination, and has a large connection.
I was very kindly sent a huge quantity of material from a lady in NZ who has researched the Hickson family tree also.
Fun to find out we are related!
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Hi , Yes, I think I have seen this article but Thank you for highlighting it. As far as My Mum recalls the Hicksons were a varied and colourful bunch. I haven't heard of the Fencibles before now. I will look them up. Mum's Uncle Wilfred Hickson used to goad her into saying naughty things to her Granny- very Grand lady she was and very Victorian ; Children were seen but not heard!She only remembers her Mother; Olive Mary speaking of days with Dr Black but I am not sure which brother she referred to. It is great to connect, this has happened to me here before with another cousin from my G'grandfather; the one married to the Victorian Grand Lady Granny my Mum recalls. His younger sister had 10 children and this other cousin is descended from her.' PM 'me.
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Some trivia - because the both Mrs Black and Mrs Hickson were related, all the Hickson descendants are related to all the descendants of Dr Black also.
Let me know if you would like any more info.
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Yes please bot do 'pm ' me. For me, it would be great to know more about you as a cousin if you would consider it? I am in strong contact with the other cousin I have mentioned. I understand if you would rather keep things to this level though. I just have to say I am amazed at what has turned up this far Thanks to the WWW, Rootschat and the many people who have helped out in my various quests.
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Thanks Tropical, No, they were quite well placed but remember these were times when folk used their initiatives and skills having left the 'home lands'. Yes, Mum recalls all Uncles and we sat down yesterday and she ticked them off on a list and married up their respective wives. We didn't go so far to do the children she recalled but will do another day.
Uncles list-:
Wilfred,
Harold,
Lesley,
Keith
Arthur
I found two male children one died at 7 hours old and another at 3 months in 1885. ( Possibly twins) Won't post the refs until I learn more. If they are siblings to Olive Mary and her Sister and their brothers then that is more sadness for Olive and Louisa.
On this point I am surprised given your interest in family research and the fact that your mum is still alive and albeit rather muddled on occassion that you haven't delved into her Aunts and Uncles to gleem any knowledge she might have of them. I wonder if she rembers being told that one of them died in WW1 and one in Africe in 1900 (there must be a story in that )
I also noted that Miss Black also taught music to Cora Hickson who would have been Olive Mary's cousin.
Jenn
Hi - Cora Hickson was my Great Mother and I have a bit of info on the Hickson tree if you would like any further info
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Thanks Tropical, No, they were quite well placed but remember these were times when folk used their initiatives and skills having left the 'home lands'. Yes, Mum recalls all Uncles and we sat down yesterday and she ticked them off on a list and married up their respective wives. We didn't go so far to do the children she recalled but will do another day.
Uncles list-:
Wilfred,
Harold,
Lesley,
Keith
Arthur
I found two male children one died at 7 hours old and another at 3 months in 1885. ( Possibly twins) Won't post the refs until I learn more. If they are siblings to Olive Mary and her Sister and their brothers then that is more sadness for Olive and Louisa.
On this point I am surprised given your interest in family research and the fact that your mum is still alive and albeit rather muddled on occassion that you haven't delved into her Aunts and Uncles to gleem any knowledge she might have of them. I wonder if she rembers being told that one of them died in WW1 and one in Africe in 1900 (there must be a story in that )
I also noted that Miss Black also taught music to Cora Hickson who would have been Olive Mary's cousin.
Jenn
Hi - Cora Hickson was my Great Mother and I have a bit of info on the Hickson tree if you would like any further info
Is this the family of Louisa Cook & Richard Hickson you were asking about - the names I have are
♂
Richard Theordore Annesley Hickson1880 – 1900
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Florence Louisa Hickson1881 – 1891
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Olive Mary Te Akau Hickson1883 – 1956
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Arthur Selwyn Hickson1885 – 1969
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Herbert Leslie Hickson1886 – 1941
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Wilfred Howard Hickson1889 – 1930
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Harold Jordan Hickson1890 – 1953
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Noel Skerrett Hickson1892 – 1953
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Clarence William Hyndman Hickson1894 – 1918
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Keith Melville Hickson1896 – 1955
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Claude Merland Hickson1898 – 1958
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Ethel Constance Hickson1907 – 1908
❏
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So if she was born in 1883 and married in 1906 somehwere in those years she came to Australia and lived with a Dr. Black who died when??? and left her property/house? in Collins Street in Melbourne that was sold in the 1930's
Jenn
I have the birth of Olive Mary Te Akau Hickson as 7th January 1883 and her marriage as 19th July 1906 to John George Herbert Hankins and her death in 1956 if this is of any help and her daughter Ruth was born in 1914 unsure of the birth dates of her other children Brian, John & Noeline
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A few more snippets:
According to notices in the digitised newspaper site (using search for Black St Kilda Cintra):
- The son-in-law Herbert MEYER was from Canterbury NZ (marriage 1861)
The marriage of Jane Irwin BLACK (1862) to Francis John ALDERSON took place in Dunedin.
Son William was with the National Bank of Australasia in 1878
Thmas' wife died 2 February 1874 (no first name given)
It could well be that he is not the right Dr Black. The connections to New Zealand may be only a co-incidence. Perhaps the Dr Black's practice was in Collins St and he lived elsewhere??
Judith
I have Thomas Blacks wife as Charlotte Leatham born 1800 Ireland and died 1874 in Melbourne if this helps
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Yes I noticed that Merlin... ;D However she would be quite elderly as Dr Thomas BLACK's children were born commencing 1833...and I have attemtped to trace them but haven't posted my findings...thought it was too much info ::) Could be a grand daughter of Thomas :-\ I suppose I am just trying to validate what information we have been given. Family stories are often distorted with the telling.
Cheers
Cando
I have attached what I have on the Black Family if this helps
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Well done Cando.....
I found it hard to conceive the possibility of her coming to Australia when her mother had a large number of children younger than Olive at home all boys the other older girl having died young. At least one son died in WW1 and another did in Africa in 1900 perhaps in one of the so called Boer Wars.
Family folktales do have an element of truth but also fiction involved.
A possible scenario is that the Miss Black she trained under perhaps had wealthy connections in Australia and as social climbing was prolific she may have grabbed on to her coat-tails so to speak.
Like Cando I could not find her coming or going to Australia and if CAndo who has obviously spent a long time on this hasn't found it either it leads me to doubt the story in its entirety
Jenn
I have attached a list of her family Louisa Cooks father was a Captain so possibly may have assisted with the travel if she did travel but with such a big family am sure she would have been required at home
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Dear Both, Tropical first, Thanks for the link re: Louise. I am left quite saddened by that and will now want to search her last resting place. Thanks also Cando, Yes, I've looked at the links but no I haven't downloaded the Will for Thomas Black. Suffice to say,I know Olive Mary did go to Melbourne and as a consequence found her gifts with music and children. Thank you both.
Just to say that what I have found so far about my Great Aunt was her full name was Florence Louisa Hickson- she died 14/06/1891.
I have no idea what from or why and I'd really like to know where she is laid to rest. As Olive Mary was 8 years old when her sister died, she'd be fully aware of all the emotion etc. I surmise that this may be why she had her interest in the welfare of children re: Plunkett and Sir Truby King.
Florence Louisa Hickson is buried at Bolton Street Cemetery in Wellington - Record no 97143 in the Church of England Section - I found it on this link http://wellington.govt.nz/services/community-and-culture/cemeteries/cemeteries-search/details?id=97143&serviceType=Burial&previousPage=%2fservices%2fcommunity-and-culture%2fcemeteries%2fcemeteries-search%2fresults%3fserviceType%3dAll%26firstNames%3dflorence%26lastName%3dhickson%26fromDate%3d01%252f01%252f1840%26toDate%3d24%252f08%252f2014%26cemetery%3dAll
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Maybe you should ask me specific questions if I can help. Here's a start - Charles Frederick and Hugh Leatham Black were married to the two Hickson sisters in a double wedding in 1855 in Auckland. The Hicksons family are a 'Fencible' family - there is plenty on the web re the Fencibles. The Fencibles were retired soldiers who were recruited to come to NZ to defend Auckland from the Maori in the early days. Captain John Annesley Hickson was in charge of a troops coming to NZ in 1848. He had a large family and was the father of the two sisters (Mary Louisa and Frances Elizabeth). His wife was Elizabeth Pleasant (nee) Williams.
What I found interesting is that Elizabeth and Dr Black's wife Charlotte were actually cousins. All of them came from what is now Northern Ireland. In those days there was a very small 'pool' of suitable people for these middle class families to marry into - so not surprising that these four were married.
Miss Florence Black was a music teacher of some renown - she was the daughter of Hugh and Mary, never married. Here is an article about her: If you google Wanganui Music Socieity you will probably find it with a photo.
Black, Miss F. E., Teacher of the Piano and Singing and the Theory of Music, “The Oaks,” River Bank, Wanganui. Miss Black was born in Melbourne at the residence of her grandfather, Dr. Thomas Black, of “Cintra,” St. Kilda, and accompanied her parents to Auckland while still an infant. She was a pupil of Mr. J. H. Beale while in Auckland, and subsequently in Wellington of Mr. J. A. Edwards, who was at one time conductor and choirmaster of All Saints' Church, St. Kilda, Melbourne, which was reputed to have the best choir in the Australian colonies. Miss Black was pianist to the Choral Society of Wellington, of which Mr. Elwards was conductor. Miss Black studied singing and voice-production under Signor Carmini Morley, and subsequently returned to Auckland, where she was a pupil of Mr. Angelo Forrest, one of the best pianists in the Colony. For ten years Miss Black taught music in the Girls' High School in Wellington, Mr. Parker and herself being the first teachers appointed to give musical instruction in that school. During her residence in Wellington, Miss Black taught at St. Mary's Convent for four or five years. While resident in Auckland she taught at the Girls' High School. She has resided in Wanganui since 1893, and during the year 1894 was one of the teachers at the Boys' Collegiate School. Sh is one of the appointed teachers on the staff of the Girls' College. Miss Black has been very successful in training pupils for the Trinity College examination, and has a large connection.
I was very kindly sent a huge quantity of material from a lady in NZ who has researched the Hickson family tree also.
Fun to find out we are related!
HI Captain John Annesley Hickson and Elizabeth Pleasant Williams were my great great great graandparents - through their son Charles Alfred St John Hickson and his daughter Cora Hickson could you please let me know the connection of the cousins Elizabeth & Charlotte - Many Thanks Sue
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I haven't the time this evening to read this thread from a few years ago other than to say I do recall finding quite a bit more about Dr BLACK and the eventual sale of the building in Collins Street.
Black, Miss F. E., Teacher of the Piano and Singing and the Theory of Music, “The Oaks,” River Bank, Wanganui. Miss Black was born in Melbourne at the residence of her grandfather, Dr. Thomas Black, of “Cintra,” St. Kilda, and accompanied her parents to Auckland while still an infant.
Birth in Victoria -
BLACK Florence Elizabeth
Father Hugh Leathem BLACK Mother Mary HICKSON
At Collingwood 1857 Reg#291
Cando
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A blast from the past I remember this thread quite well even though it was 4 years ago A lot of work went into researching this... Cando did so much on it.
Hopefully the further information that KiwiSue has added will help further but I do see that Glammis has not been on Rootschat since last year.
Jenn
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Black, Miss F. E., Teacher of the Piano and Singing and the Theory of Music, “The Oaks,” River Bank, Wanganui. Miss Black was born in Melbourne at the residence of her grandfather, Dr. Thomas Black, of “Cintra,” St. Kilda,
Florence was born 1 Jan 1857 at 1 Fitzroy Terrace, Eastern Hill and birth registered Collingwood by Thomas BLACK, Occupier, 1 Fitzroy Terrace, Eastern Hill. She could not have been born at Cintra as at that time was owned and occupied by Mr J G FOXTON.
Cando