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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: lindynz on Wednesday 01 September 10 01:07 BST (UK)
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I am looking for information about John Loughlin, who came to New Zealand in 1864 on the "Dauntless" with some of his children. His wife Eliza Jane (Adams) and other children followed in 1866. The family were from the Comber area in Down, Northern Ireland.
They eventually settled in the Thames area, but I believe they were in Ponui Island before that. I would like any information at all about John Loughlin in particular, because I know next to nothing about him. Two of his sons, David John and Samuel Jameson Loughlin were mine managers in Thames.
I have been unable to find out what happened to him in New Zealand, he is not buried with his wife in Tararu cemetery. I believe a John Loughlin died in N.Z. in 1865 but I don't know if this is him, as I thought he was alive in at least 1866. I am also wondering if there is any record of what the family were doing in Ponui Island, I would love to know more about that.
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Have you tried checking the Papers Past website?
One thing I found there was that John appears to have died before Eliza Jane/29 July 1904, according to this: http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=THS19040729.2.13&srpos=4&e=-------10--1----2John+Loughlin--
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Hi Lindy,
Althea should see this thread when she signs in and hopefully might be able to have some suggestions for you where to look as Thames is her area.
Wish you luck in your search.
Cheers
KHP :)
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Yes, I have seen that, there are a number of clues that he wasn't around when the family were in Thames. They went to Ponui Island in 1865, which probably rules out that 1865 death record, especially since it is in the South Island.
We assume he was with the family when they went to Thames in 1869, but I have started to wonder if he went elsewhere, maybe he even stayed on Ponui? It seems odd that there is no death record for him. This is a mystery that has been with the family for many years!
Thank you kiwihalfpint, I will keep watching!
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Hi
just checking in
several loughlin lines in Thames and spelling variants.
Will check the family trees/pioneer forms am at The Treasury
Lots of JOHN LOUGHLIN's with miners rights
http://www.kaelewis.com/
Are the McLoughlin's different, does the family ever have the MC prefix
sadly Eliza Jane's Electoral roll entries only say domestic duties and not marital state
Interesting that Eliza JAne appears in Street directories by herself from 1894, which would suggest her husband had died?? just previous
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~althea/Combined%20Street%20Directories%201873%20to%201906.htm takes awhile to load
If you look at this one
LAUGHLAN John Farmer Pollen St 1875 THAMES DIRECTORY
makes one wonder if this is JOhn???
Bye
Althea
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were there other children
? a James M G b 8/12/1868? because he is at school 1879, father John Loughlin of Pollen Street.
BYe
Althea
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Althea, I also wondered if there was another son after seeing pages like these:
http://dechantweb.net/genealogy/ged2web/people/p0000000.htm#I776
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~sooty/cyclopediaaucklandl-z.html
I think in the NZ Births index he is shown as James McGowan LAUGHLIN (b. 1867)
Had a look for that spelling in the NZ deaths index & saw a death for John LAUGHLIN 28 SEP 1892, age 68
(so birth year approx 1824)
... could that be a possibility?
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The burial records for that JOhn are at Waikumete
which is still a possibility as some Thames ones even then seem to pop up there
I can check the fiche to see where that was registered
http://www.waitakere.govt.nz/cnlser/cm/cemeterysearch/cemeterydetails.aspx?id=91016
BYe
Althea
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http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-Cyc02Cycl-t1-body1-d3-d5-d13.html
definetly is
no wonder I'd heard of james - he's a grocer
Bye
Althea
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Me again
that tree you found has Johns full name as DAVID JOHN
BYe
Althea
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The burial records for that JOhn are at Waikumete
which is still a possibility as some Thames ones even then seem to pop up there
I can check the fiche to see where that was registered
http://www.waitakere.govt.nz/cnlser/cm/cemeterysearch/cemeterydetails.aspx?id=91016
BYe
Althea
Nicely found, Althea! ;D I wonder if that's him? Also, could he be buried with anyone even if it's not in the index, do you know?
I'm not sure where his wife Eliza Jane is buried -- Lindy's OP mentioned that she was in the Tararu Cemetery, but the only record I can see online at http://web.tcdc.govt.nz/cemeprod/cemeteries.aspx for Eliza Jane LOUGHLIN is the one for their daughter (or so it seems), later Eliza Jane WHITLEY..?
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deleted .... read the question wrong :-[
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Thank you very much for all that... I think all those Loughlins you found are probably the same family, including James McGowan Laughlin. I haven't seen the name spelt with an "a" but they definitely had a son of that name.
I think that the John Laughlin at Waikumete might be worth pursuing, it never occurred to me to search for that spelling, so thank you for finding that, it sounds promising! That birth year of 1824 corresponds with my guess, I was thinking somewhere around 1827, but that's pretty close. I haven't seen a birth record for him. It is starting to look like John may have left the family.
The children of John and Eliza Jane:
Fanny Sarah (Mckee) b.England 1848 d.1920
Isabella (Graham) b.England 1851 d.1926
Agnes (McCormick) b. 1855 Co. Down d.1905 Thames
Samuel Jamieson b. 1857 England d.1931 Paeroa
David John b.1859 Comber d.1919 Thames
Eliza Jane (Whitley) b.1861 Belfast d.1933 Thames
Mary Jane (Wood) no details
James McGowan b.1865? Thames d.1948 Thames
My apologies, some of the details may be incorrect, but you get some idea of the family names to look out for.
The Eliza Jane who is buried at Tararu, from what I can tell, both Elizas are buried there, mother and daughter.
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Eliza Jane (Mother) is at Tararu Cem, Monumental inscription is:
In memory our dear beloved mother Eliza Jane Loughlin who fell asleep trusting in Jesus on 29 July 1904 for ever with the lord
Bye
Althea
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The Eliza Jane who is buried at Tararu, from what I can tell, both Elizas are buried there, mother and daughter.
Eliza Jane (Mother) is at Tararu Cem, Monumental inscription is:
That's awesome, girls - at least you've got that one ironed out, Lindy! ;D
I haven't seen the name spelt with an "a"
Looking through Papers Past for example, and in the NZ BDM index, I can see both Loughlin and Laughlin esp in the early years as well. Wonder if it was an accent-related variation (when telling someone how to spell the name)? One of my Helliwell ancestors ended up being recorded as Hellewell (and all kinds of other vowel mixtures of it), not to mention "Allowele" once! ;D
It is starting to look like John may have left the family.
I reckon that could be a good possibility at this stage too. Newspaper-wise (although could be totally circumstantial esp if issues are missing etc) it's interesting that it's fairly easy to find notices of births, deaths and marriages for the rest of the family, but no death/funeral/memorial mention of John...
? a James M G b 8/12/1868? because he is at school 1879, father John Loughlin of Pollen Street.
... so at this stage, would you say that we still have John alive in 1879? Are there any other facts beyond that?
p.s. I noticed in the newspapers that John/family were in a place called Graham's Town/Grahamstown in the early years, not sure if that helps (a wedding notice in particular, also stating that the father John was from County Down, Ireland originally)...?
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Graham's Town/Grahamstown in the early years
This was part of Thames as it is today
There was Shortland in the South and Grahamstown to the north
connected by Pollen Street.
Bye
Althea
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The Grahamstown reference is Thames, so that would be them. I have seen a number of newspaper and directory mentions for them (though I haven't searched for the name spelt any other way), I can only conclude he was probably still alive in 1879 going by that school record, but it's hard to tell. Eliza seems to be by herself in later directories, sorry I can't recall what year she first appears by herself.
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Sadly that 1892 death was registeredm at Auckland
but may not discount him as he could have been working at Auckland or still at Ponui??at times.
Many Thames men went away for periods when the gold situation dwindled to earn money.
This family name is associated with Whakatete Bay, just down the coast.
There are other researchers still in the Thames area
BYe
Althea
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Just wanted to add, I found this http://sites.google.com/site/4th9coro/electoral-roll-1893-h-to-m, kind of suggesting that John's not around in 1893, but Elizabeth Jane, Eliza Jane, David, James McGowan & Samuel all are.
I wonder if there are earlier electoral rolls with John on it?
Otherwise (and this is only me), I think I'd probably just order the 1892 death cert possibility to put myself out of my misery -- think I'm out of ideas at this stage otherwise.
Will be so excited to hear if you find anything. :)
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The death certificate has been ordered, this is the most likely possibility we have heard in a long time!
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eee how exciting! :D ;D i'll be crossing my fingers for you!
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Just a quick update about John Loughlin/Laughlin's death certificate. I have seen it now and although it unfortunately contains no family information, what little it does give seems to match our John.
It says he was born in Ireland and was in the country 27 years, which matches the year we know he arrived, 1865. It seems strange there were no other details, but it looks like he was a charity case at the City Mission so the informant would have known little about him. He must have been estranged from the family.
The mystery lives on as to why he was alone in Auckland, and who his family were in Ireland, but at least we seem to have solved the mystery of where he ended up. So thank you everybody for helping me to find that death record, hopefully there is still more information to come to light!
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Very sad
but interesting
I wonder if he kept on the electoral rolls during those preceding years, it would be interesting to know how he described himself
Bye
Althea
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Oh my word, that's brilliant, Lindy! ;D I'm so thrilled that you've moved a little closer to solving things. ;D
So, what clues or leads do we have to work with to find out mystery part 2?
* Was there a cause of death that might indicate anything?
* What was the name of the informant?
* Would Waikumete Cemetery hold any other info other than what we can see in their online database (e.g. buried with anyone? plot purchaser?)
* What records between 1879-1892 (incl. electoral rolls, thanks Althea!) are there available to investigate, and what have we already investigated?
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The cause of death is (I think- hard to read) "necrosis of tarsus septicemia" - an infection? which doesn't help much. The informant was James Nash, a hospital messenger (Auckland Hospital). It also mentions, again hard to read, Duncan McPherson of the City Missionary.
I have also recently been told by another researcher that everything they have heard points to him having just walked away from the family.
I haven't yet looked for what other information the cemetery holds, but I presume if he was a charity case there would be no headstone, or other family nearby if he was estranged from them. Also I haven't seen any electoral roll mention of him, though I haven't checked the Auckland roll.
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* What records between 1879-1892 (incl. electoral rolls, thanks Althea!) are there available to investigate, and what have we already investigated?
To Lin
Electoral rolls: 1881-1891
Burgess Rolls
Directories
Will need to reread if we have covered any
Bye
Althea
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Interesting that Eliza JAne appears in Street directories by herself from 1894, which would suggest her husband had died?? just previous
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~althea/Combined%20Street%20Directories%201873%20to%201906.htm takes awhile to load
If you look at this one
LAUGHLAN John Farmer Pollen St 1875 THAMES DIRECTORY
So 1875 John is in a street directory as owner of properties
1887 Eliza is on the Burgess roll not John
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~althea/Burgess%20Roll%201887%20sort.htm
I can't see him on the combined disk, only John's have O'L... as surname spelling
Bye
Althea
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That's awesome Lindy & Althea, some good extra info to go by! ;D
I presume if he was a charity case there would be no headstone, or other family nearby if he was estranged from them.
The cemetery index record for John does say "no headstone". However, according to the index via http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/CityArchives/FamilyHistory/ACC333/searchindexes.htm, the 1890-1891 Burgess Roll for the City of Auckland shows LOUGHLIN, Saml. Jamison, Coal Dealer -- owned a wood building on East Street (despite Samuel appearing to be still a resident in Thames at the same time). Which suggests to me that there was family, or a family-owned building, in the area that John died; pretty much at the time he died.
I have also recently been told by another researcher that everything they have heard points to him having just walked away from the family.
It's certainly hard to explain the fact that no member of the family is mentioned on the death cert; or why John & Eliza aren't buried together. Those are big key points.
Just kind of odd though how John is referred to so naturally in the 1904 & 1905 obituaries for his wife & daughter here http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=THS19040729.2.15&l=mi&e=-------100--401-byDA---0rugby+japan-- and here http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=THS19050203.2.40&l=mi&e=-------10--1----0Western+Star+Editor.
What an amazing mystery. :'( ??? Will cross my fingers for you again that something new comes to light.
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I agree 100% with above
Such a well known family in the area at the time, and the head missing
What gets me is that Thames burgess roll, for the wife to have the properties listed, you would have thought he was dead at that stage and that she had inherited them...otherwise the property would still have been in husbands name ???
Bye
Althea
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Wow, Althea, those are two super important points. :o ;D
(Just brainstorming here:) what scenarios do you think could occur in the late 1800s whereby a husband is alive but his wife would technically own property?
Would she automatically get the property if he abandoned the family?
If he was missing presumed dead? (You'd think with a well-known family there'd be mention in the newspaper of that though?).
What about something rendering him incapable, such as illness, or imprisonment? (The latter you'd also expect to find some court case esp. if he's away for years). I wonder how long John was in Auckland Hosptial for?
I also have found a couple of new things re: Duncan McPHERSON, City Missionary (on John's death certificate).
Firstly, this sheds more light on the actual role of this City Missionary:
http://www.presbyterian.org.nz/archives/Page181.htm
"Duncan McPHERSON... Appointed to the Auckland Presbyterian City Mission in 1884, visiting door to door, finding out the lapsed Presbyterians and the children not attending any Sunday School, also the Gaol, Hospital, Veteran’s Home, Mental Asylum, Hospital, Nurses’ Home, and newly arrived immigrants. Acted as Auckland City Missionary for 29 years."
Secondly, there's a chance that Duncan McPHERSON may have actually been known to the family.
For example, here is Duncan McPHERSON involved with St. James Presbyterian Church, Pollen Street, Thames in 1889: http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=THS18890513.2.9&l=mi&e=-------10--51----0burnley%2C+lancashire-all
We also have "Mrs LOUGHLIN" in the Index of Names (1872-1894) in "Seat Letting Cash Book" of the same church: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~babznz/stjameschurchthames.html)
So Duncan McPherson: was he visiting the Hospital by coincidence when John died? Or was he a family friend or minister? Was he the one who provided the birthplace & length of residency in NZ? Or did the Hospital? John's accent might have made the birthplace obvious, but how would someone else know the length of residency? Wouldn't it be easier to know or find out the name of his wife & kids?
Which makes me wonder: could it be possible at all that John's family intended to complete the rest of the details on the death cert, but for some reason didn't? Did the family rely on someone like Duncan McPherson to take care of the paperwork for them? Is Eliza Jane mentioned on the certificate? (Just thought also, as for his parents, maybe she didn't even know who his parents were).
Lindy -- I think one next step (just a suggestion) might be to go ahead and contact the Waikumete Cemetery to see if they hold records on who purchased John's (Presbyterian) grave (& also whether he's buried with anyone). What do you think?
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Wow, Duncan McPherson sounds like an interesting character. I would love to know if he had any connection to the rest of the family, maybe they asked him to watch out for him. I suspect that for whatever reason he left the family it wasn't something they wanted to be made public, I can only guess what the reason might have been.
I have never seen any mention of his origins in Ireland, other than that he was from Comber in County Down. I wonder if even he knew little about his own family, no information seems to have been passed down. No mention of parents, wife or children on the death certificate, so obviously none of them were there to give that information, but they would have known that he died- he is referred to as the "late" John Loughlin after 1892. But- if he had a chance to tell McPherson how long he had been in NZ you would think he would also have said something about having a family so it's strange they aren't mentioned.
Hopefully some time soon the family will get a chance to visit Waikumete cemetery to try to find out more about the burial plot, so fingers crossed they have information about who purchased it.
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Hopefully some time soon the family will get a chance to visit Waikumete cemetery to try to find out more about the burial plot, so fingers crossed they have information about who purchased it.
Hi Lindy
It may pay to email the cemetery office,the printouts they have do not have the purchasers name on them.They may be able to check the archives
Cheers Janette
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Hi again,
Archives Auckland hold the Auckland Hospital registers of patients,there is a cardex to look up and then you can request to look at the register.
There is usually quite a bit of info in them
name,age,native of,years in NZ,last residence,occupation,malady,date admitted,date discharged or death,
Cheers Janette
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Hi ,
Here is the entry from the hospital register at Archives
Registration number :3514
Admission date: Aug 13th 1892
Name: LAUGHLIN John
Age: 68
Marital status: W
Native of:Ireland
In NZ: 27 yrs
Late Residence: Riverhead
Occupation: Labourer
Malady: Necrosis of Toe
Date of Discharge or Death:Sept 28th
Recovered:
Relieved:
Not improved:
Died: X
Religion: Presbyterian
Number of day in hospital:46
Ward :1
Note the W under marital status
Cheers Janette
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Hmm, that's interesting. I wonder why he was listed as widowed? Either he lied about his family status or it's the wrong guy. But I'm pretty sure it's him because we know he came to NZ in 1865 with daughters Sarah and Isabella (the rest of the family arrived the following year). Perhaps a husband who spent over a year without his family preferred to be single?
Unless there was another John Loughlin who arrived around the same time, but I'm not aware of any other J.L. that would fit.
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I would think this confirms it isn't the right person
??what do you think Jeanette
Bye
Althea
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it probably does Althea,
With the Laughlin instead of Loughlin and
he gave his address as Riverhead ,I wonder if there are other Laughlin's in the Riverhead cemetery
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Well what a wonderous lot of contributions Janette has made to unravelling this story - how much does she rock!
Re: "W"/ question of being the right person --
A google search for the phrase "claimed to be widowed" turns up many examples where separated/divorced spouses claim to be widowed rather than publicly admit the reality. (This story also came up in that search, fascinating: http://scheelgenealogy.blogspot.com/)
Assuming that there was no clerical error & that John was in his right mind & provided his own details on the Hospital admission record, it's possible that he could well have chosen deliberately to state that he was widowed in the same manner.
That gives a lot more weight to the original theory that he had left the family, whether out of desperation or not, doesn't it..?
I wonder if Eliza Jane also claimed to be widowed before her husband's death?
Speaking of whom, I also came across some explanations as to how she may have ended up being property owner; apparently as of 1884, the Married Women's Property Act enabled married women to own property in their own right: so that ties in with her first appearing on the Burgess Roll in 1887.
The interesting related pages I read are:
http://www.mwa.govt.nz/women-in-nz/timeline/1800.html
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/1966/husband-and-wife/1
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/1966/family-homes/1
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/1966/divorce-and-separation/1
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Re: spelling variations --
I think the surname is simply just spelled either way over the years. In the NZ BDM index alone, the deaths, for example, of wife Eliza Jane (1904) and son David John (1919) are recorded as LOUGHLIN. However, the deaths of son Samuel Jamieson (1931) & dau-in-law Anne Lilias Munro (1932) are both recorded as LAUGHLIN.
LOUGHLIN is the spelling recorded for the marriages of most of the children, except for Samuel (LAUGHLIN), Eliza (also LAUGHLIN) and David (LONGHLIN).
The same variations (along with the odd other) are seen throughout most other records too.
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There are no other Laughlin/Loughlin deaths prior to John's death in 1892 apart form a John Loughlin in 1865
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And I think that 1865 death was in Otago. The only other John Loughlin of that era I have found was also in Otago, and is almost certainly not our John. So unless he left the country, or went missing and was never found this would have to be him - and I would have thought there would be some record if he had done either of those things.
I agree with Lin about the spelling, after realising that sometimes the name was spelt with an "a" numerous examples showed up from the same family.
I think he probably just wanted a clean break, perhaps it was easier to tell people he was widowed - it would have saved the shame (not to mention paperwork) of a divorce.
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I agree with Lin about the spelling, after realising that sometimes the name was spelt with an "a" numerous examples showed up from the same family.
Have to agree ...... I have one with Laughlin as a first name in my tree, and every piece of information I found it was either spelt with an "a" or an "o".
Do you know what his middle name was? John ;D :D
Cheers
KHP :)
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Some people seem to think his name might be David John Loughlin, same as his son. They also say he was the only child of a second marriage, but I don't know if there is any truth to that.
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David John Loughlin (Laughlin) is one of my ancestors, I am descended thru Agnes. We always had it that he died at City Missionary, under the name John Laughlin, which could explain why the connection took so long to make. He born about 1820, Comber, Ireland, m. Eliza Jane Adams. She was born ABT 9 Oct 1822, Ballyboley, Down, and she died 29 July 1904. Family historians state David John died "before 1904", but until quite recently he was just "walked away", so possibly they wrote him off. I do have a rcord from a family member that says "he as the only child of his father's second marriage, but I have never been able to locate his parents, and spent several weeks in Ireland trying to do just that
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From the Loughlin Family Tree", compiled December 1984, I have that "there are several references to John Loughlin in the log of the cutter "Midnight". He travelled to Ponui Island on August 9, to begin work for Mr. Chamberlain. Isabella followed him on August 23, and Sarah on 8 September, 1865". John's wife, Eliza Jane (nee Adams), arrived in Auckland pn the "Chile", tpgether with children Mary, Agnes, Eliza Jane, Samuel and David on 4 December 1866, and followed John to Ponui Island on 10 December 1866. In 1869 they moved to the Thames area, and in 1901 settled at Whakatete Bay on the Thames Coast where descendants of John and Eliza still live.
I have a sketch of the homestead somewhere, it is long gone, but I have visited the site. Descendants do still live there, and there is even a 100 yar old rose bush, named after one of my great aunts. Have photos somewhere. Agnes Loughlin McCormick was my great grandmother, and there is information on the family available thru The Treasury, online cemetery websites, etc., plus I have "stuff".
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If you google "Ponui Island, spelling is given as Chamberlain and Chamberlin, and the Island is known as Chamberlin Island