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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: lindynz on Sunday 29 August 10 23:24 BST (UK)
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I am looking for information about Maria Frances Langley, who was born around 1840 in Woolwich. She married John Brunton in Auckland N.Z. in 1864, but I don't know when she came to New Zealand.
I have seen on the I.G.I. that her parents were Edward Langley and Mary Maria Marchant, and that Mary's parents were Richard Marchant and Mary Ashendon. I believe the Marchants may have been from Peasmarch.
I would like confirmation that this is the family of my Maria Frances Langley, and if so, I would like to know more about the Langleys, Marchants, etc.
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I would like confirmation that this is the family of my Maria Frances Langley
If she died after 1875 - her parents names will be on her death cert
From http://www.exploregenealogy.co.uk/NewZealandDeathRecords.html
After 1875, things improve for anyone tracing family history, as death certificates became very full. As well as the information above, the certificate now contained the cause of death, the duration of the last illness, the name of the doctor and when he last saw the person, as well as the name of the deceased's father and mother (including her maiden name), when and where the deceased was buried and even the name and religion of the minister or witness. However, some of the most important new facts for a genealogist are how long the deceased had been in New Zealand, where he was born, where he'd married (including to whom and at what age) and the number and sex of the children. You can find plenty there to spur on your research in several different directions.
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Are you sure she was born c1840? I only ask because there is a birth registration in the vicinity 1848 http://freebmd.rootsweb.com :-\
Is she the Frances BRUNTON (no mention of Maria) died 1887 in NewZealand then it gives her age as 39 ie. born c1848 https://www.bdmonline.dia.govt.nz/ ??? By starting with some New Zealand records it will be easier to trace her over here for certain.
Casalguidi :)
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You could be right about the 1848 birth, my records only say "about" 1840 for her birth. I don't have any kind of certificate for her, but I have a birth certificate for her daughter, Frances Ethel, which says her mother was aged 37 in 1886, and that she was born in Woolwich, so that would probably match the 1848 record.
I will have to do some more digging to confirm her death date.
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I just been told that Maria Frances died while giving birth to Frances Ethel in 1886.
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Its interesting that there is no corresponding Groom on Maria Frances Langleys Marriage Reg on NZ BMD!
1864/1992
To confirm all the info you need the Death Cert of Francis Brunton and Marriage Cert of her and John.
As she was relatively young when married, it is possible her Parents were Witnesses at the Marriage.
Trish :)
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I have a birth certificate for her daughter, Frances Ethel, which says her mother was aged 37 in 1886, and that she was born in Woolwich
When you say "my records" say she was born c1840 ............. may we ask what records these are? If Frances Ethel's birth certificate gives her as born c1848 I can't quite see where you are getting 1840 from especially as there is a birth registration with the correct name in the right area 1848 as mentioned above.
Casalguidi :)
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Well, for years I was unable to find out anything about her because the birth certificate for Frances Ethel mistakenly said her mother's maiden name was Langton. It was only when I started digging again recently that I noticed on John Brunton's death certificate that his wife's name was Langley, and that the name Langley pops up in other family members names.
I must have used the "about 1840" record from I.G.I. because that was the only "Maria Frances Langley" born in Woolwich, but that one doesn't say who she married. That was where I saw the names Edward Langley and Mary Maria Marchant. I have since seen another entry there that doesn't give a birth place, or the parent's names, but does say 1848, and that she married John Brunton. No death year mentioned on that one.
So- that 1848 record would be correct, because I know that is definitely the right Maria Frances. But, since there are only 3 entries there for Maria Frances Langley, and they all contain information that I know to be true, I have to suspect that all 3 are referring to the same person, including the one that gives her parents names. Which is what I would like to find out! Does the 1848 birth record mention her parents?
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I know it's been a few years, but I'm hoping to revive this topic. I now have Maria's death certificate (under the name Frances Brunton)- she died in 1887, aged 39, which I believe proves the 1848 Lewisham FreeBMD record for her birth. Her parents' first names aren't given on the certificate, but their surnames were "Langlie" and "Marchard", which gives weight to my theory that Edward Langley and Mary Maria Marchant were her parents, however I still can't find any definite proof of this - I can't even find her on FamilySearch any more. Can anyone confirm if they were her parents? The Marchant family tree I found gives the marriage of Edward and Mary in Whitechapel, but doesn't list children. If this post gets no response I will start a new thread, because I'm really quite keen to establish who her parents were. I will also make a fresh post on the NZ board regarding her arrival in NZ.
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1851- 1 New Charlotte Street, Charlton, Kent
Edward LANGLEY head mar 38 corn dealer b.Putney Surrey
Maria wife 28 b.Brighton Sussex
Frances dau 2 b.Charlton Kent
Eleanor dau 1 b.Charlton Kent
Mary SMITH servant 10 b.Woolwich
HO/107 1590 folio 129 page 17
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Edward LANGLEY married Mary Maria MARCHANT St Mary Whitechapel 8 Jun 1847. He a bachelor of full age, corn dealer of High Street son of Edward LANGLEY grocer. She of full age spinster of same address dau of Richard MARCHANT victualler. Witnesses Henry? CHAPMAN and Elizabeth MORGAN.
.............
Casalguidi :)
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Edward LANGLEY baptised Putney, Surrey 3 Jan 1813 son of Edward and Martha of Putney (Roehampton crossed out), a carpenter.
1851 High Street, Putney, Surrey
Edward LANGLEY head wid 62 grocer in general? b.Marlow Buckinghamshire
Frances dau unm 28 b.Roehampton
Frederick son unm 30 grocer's assistant b.Roehampton
Robert son 22 unm grocer's assistant b.Roehampton
HO107/1579 folio 187 page 8
.............
Casalguidi :)
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Thank you, casalguidi - finally some progress on the Langley family! Your information is tallying with my other post on the NZ board. It looks like Edward died in Lewisham in 1854, and his widow Mary Maria took the four children to NZ in 1863. I'm still keen to find a birth or christening record for Maria Frances showing the names of her parents (the FreeBMD record doesn't name them), and further information about Edward's family would also be appreciated, but it all seems to be adding up that this is indeed her family. :)
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Hi, I am interested in the Langleys for my wife's line, I'm not sure about Edward'd parents - casalguidi, you have a marriage record for him and Maria showing her father as Richard, could you tell me the source of that information please?
1851 census says Edward born in 1813.
The 1851 census for Edward's family shows Edward, his wife, Maria and their two children (Frances (born 1849) and Eleanor (born 1850).
Edward died 5/6/1854 but by that time, the couple had had a further three children.
The registration district on his death certificate is recorded as Lewisham Union.
The death certificate records his cause of death as being Trismus (Lockjaw) Idiopathic (from an unknown source) for 3 days. The name of the person certifying the cause of death is not stated.
His wife was present at the time of death, and she put her mark to the certificate showing that she was illiterate.
The 1861 census has three of the children, Ellen (aka Fanny Helen); Emma Caroline and Edward, living in an institution at 4 William Street. Bethnal Green.
There is no mention of Mary or her three surviving eldest children Eleanor (aged 10/11), Frances (aged 13) or Frances Maria (aged 14) who were all perhaps in the workhouse.
New Zealand death records show that Mary Maria Langley (née Marchant) [1870/3772] was aged 46 at the time of her death on the 21st March 1870 so born about 1824,
I can't find any birth for Mary on the IGI to Richard that matches that year, but did find one on FindMyPast in 1824 in Brighton to Stephen Marchant and Sarah. comments invited!
Mary Maria Langley sailed to NZ aboard the Silver Eagle which left Grenwhich, London on 28/09/1862 and arrived in Auckland on 31/01/1863.
The article in Auckland's Daily Southern Cross, Volume XIX, Issue 1727, of 31 January 1863, at Page 13 shows the passengers in this family as:
Mary M
Fanny H
Helen
Emma
Emma
Edward
is this Helen the missing Eleanor from the passenger list of the Silver Eagle?
There is no explanation as to why Emma should be entered in the list twice, but Frances Maria is not mentioned and I believe this to be a further clerical error by the person who wrote the story for the newspaper. and the seccond Emma is actually Frances Maria, and as Mary was illiterate (as shown by her just putting her mark to her husband's death certificate, rather than signing her name), she would have been unable to tell if an error had been made and her dialect may have led to this error.
The Mrs LANGLEY (bur. 23 March 1870 - aged 46 years) arrived in New Zealand on board the "Silver Eagle" in 1863 with a son and three daughters. She is buried with her daughter Mrs ARMOUR.
I think that this is another example of an editorial error, Mrs Langley arrived with her son and four daughters. but as she was illiterate as shown by her just putting her mark on her husband's death certificate, she would be unable to know if the newspaper had made an error.
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There is no explanation in any records I have found so far as to why three of Maria's children were in an institution at the time of the 1861 census, without their mother and two other siblings, where she, Frances and Fanny were at the time of that census nor how she managed to fund the price of the passage for herself and her five children to New Zealand 18 months later.
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I have a copy of Maria's marriage certificate dated 8/6/1847 in the Parish of St Mary, Whitechapel, which confirms her father's name as Richard. but I am having difficulty locating the family in England.
Unfortunately the marriage certificate only says that Maria is of full age, i.e. over 21 so born before 1826 so that doesn't help identify her in the baptismal records.
I haven't been able to locate her birth/baptism in any of Find My Past, Freebmd or the IGI.
I have not been able to locate any marriage of Richard Marchant and Mary Ashendon so would appreciate knowing where this marriage information was sourced
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Do you have these Census?
1851 Census
Charlton, Kent
Richard Marchant, 68, Head, Mar, Lic Victualler employing 1 Man , born Brightling, Sussex
Mary Marchant, 48, Wife, Mar, born Northam, Sussex
Arthur Marchant, 14, Son, born Charlton, Kent
1841 in Charlton, Kent;
Richard Marchass, 50, Gardener
Mary Marchass, 35
MARIA Marchass, 15******
William Marchass, 13
Thomas Marchass, 10
Arthur Marchass, 5
All down as born in County
Trish :)
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I can find these Baptisms;
St Luke, Charlton, Kent
WILLIAM Marchnat, 11 Nov 1827 (birth 11 Sept 1827) to Richard/Mary, Father a Gardener
THOMAS Marchant, 18 July 1830 (birth 11 June 1830) to Richard/Mary, Father a Gardener
ARTHUR JAMES Marchant, 18 July 1836, to Richard/Mary, Father a Gardener
(Source FreeREG)
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Mary ASHENDEN Christened 11 October 1801, Northiam, Sussex, England
Parents JOHN/MARY
(Source Familysearch.Org)
A Tree has Richard marrying Mary, 6 JUL 1819 • Peasmarsh Rye East Sussex
(I cant confirm this)
Given the age gap Richard may have been married before.
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Thanks Trish
I had some of this info but wasn't sure about it.
The 1851 census has Richard born in 1783 in Brighton, Sussex, but the 1861 one has him born in Kent in 1791.
Lewisham is just south of the Thames whereas Brighton is on the South Coast, quite a distance in those days and the 8 years difference also makes me wonder if these are not two different families.
I have Mary marrying Edward Langley on 8/6/1847 in St Mary, Whitechapel, and the marriage certificate has her father as Richard Marchant, so I can be certain of this.
Her death certificate says she was 45 at the time of her death on 21 March 1870 so she was born about 1824/5.
There is another Richard Marchant in the 1841 census in Charlton Village, Lewisham, Kent born in 1791, which is the family you found in the 1861 census with his wife, Mary born in 1801 and the children Maria, William, Thomas and Arthur, and a man called John Longhurst who is the same age as Richard.
I did consider Mary Ashenden as Richard's wife, but I couldn't locate anything to verify it so until I can, all I can be certain of is that Richard's wife is called Mary.
It could well be that John Longhurst is Mary's brother which would make her maiden name Longhurst, but unfortunately the earlier censuses don't give relationship to head of the house.
I wouldn't just accept what someone has included in their tree as proof of anything unless they have also stated the source of that information, be it certificate post Oct 1837 or parish registers before then. which I can verify myself.
Best wishes.
Clive
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I have a copy of Maria's marriage certificate dated 8/6/1847 in the Parish of St Mary, Whitechapel, which confirms her father's name as Richard. but I am having difficulty locating the family in England.
Unfortunately the marriage certificate only says that Maria is of full age, i.e. over 21 so born before 1826 so that doesn't help identify her in the baptismal records.
I haven't been able to locate her birth/baptism in any of Find My Past, Freebmd or the IGI.
From the Transcripts of Sussex Family History Group :
Mary Maria Marchant 18 May 1823 Peasmarsh , Richard Marchant , gardener, and Mary.
There is also Mary Maria . illegitimate daughter of Mary Marchant , 12 Apr 1838 Westfield but that seems rather too late.
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From the Sussex Marriage Index :
Richard Marchant and Mary Ashenden 6 Jul 1819 Peasmarsh
no other info is given in the transcript.
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No Christine, I don't think this is the one - I think Mary's parents were from Sussex and Richard born abt 1791 in Brighton, if this is correct, he was a pub owner not a gardener, an entirely different strata of society.
I don't think the Richard Marchant = Mary Ashenden is the correct family.
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Looking at the 1841 Census Occp for Richard, by 1851 he has a different occp.
So all the Childrens Baptisms would show his occp as a gardener.
Even in my Tree I have;
William LEGGETT 1822, 1851 Occp Waiter/1861 Waiter/1871 Publican*
Trish :)
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No Christine, I don't think this is the one - I think Mary's parents were from Sussex and Richard born abt 1791 in Brighton, if this is correct, he was a pub owner not a gardener, an entirely different strata of society.
I don't think the Richard Marchant = Mary Ashenden is the correct family.
Peasmarsh is in Sussex and by no means everyone marries in the same place as they were born.
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Richard Marchant's will is on Ancestry , or available at TNA if you don't have a subscription. In brief it confirms him as Richard Marchant of the Anchor and Hope Inn , Charlton , names his executor as his wife Mary and lists his children as John Marchant , Mary Maria Langley wife of Edward Langley, cornchandler , William Marchant , Thomas Marchant and Arthur James Marchant. This ties the family in with the census Trish gave and the baptisms she found.
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Richard Marchant 9 Sep 1787 Brighton St Nicholas , Stephen Marchant & Hannah
Mary Ashenden 11 Oct 1801 Northiam St Mary , John Ashenden & Mary
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But Trish, the 1851 Census has him born in Kent in 1791 and the 1841 census has him born in Brighton (Sussex) in 1783, quite apart from the distance between the two locations, there is also 8 years difference in age.
Charlton (Kent) is where the children were born and the the spelling of the surname in the 1841 census is not even phonetically close nor could it be accounted for by a dialect differential. the age of Richard's wife is also different, in the 1841 census, mary was born in 1806 whereas in the 1851 census she was born in 1803. and there is also a year difference between the births of each family's son, Arthur.
As Richard was a licenced victualler in the 1851 census (i.e. a landlord) he would have been at least to some extent able to read and write but that would hardly hold true for someone employed as a gardener in 1841.
I'm still not convinced that the family you have identified in the 1841 census is the same as that in the 1851 census.
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The new GRO index Maria Frances Langley registered 1848 S Quarter Lewisham Vol 5 Page 313 mother maiden name MARCHANT
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Ok Clive, I can only post what I think and you will have to decide what you think.
1) 1841 Census if you look at the image has a t at the end so name is Marchant or Marchent.
So it is a transcription error.
As whether born in County or not is often wrong in 1841 Census that is why will all hope they are around in 1851 to establish POB and DOB.
Adults ages were rounded in 1841 Census also.
2) Christine found you Mary Marias Baptism;
Mary Maria Marchant 18 May 1823 Peasmarsh , Richard Marchant , gardener, and Mary.
I found you all her Siblings.
Father Richard a Gardener
As no Children were born post 1837 we cant establish Marys maiden name conclusively.
3) Just because someone was a Gardener it doesnt mean they cant read or write
I have a Great..Grandfather who was well of later in life, started as a Gardener for a large House, then Market Gardener for himself and was fairly wealthy at the end.
2 of his Grandsons became Doctors;
1st Son;
http://peopleaustralia.anu.edu.au/biography/purdy-john-smith-8132
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/purdy-john-smith-8132
2nd Son;
A History of the New Zealand Department of Health Derek A. Dow ... Staff must have gained fresh heart from Dr James Purdy's 1910 presidential address to the NZBMA, in which he ... the Wellington division of the NZBMA in November 1914.
Re John Longhurst in 1841 Census, he is not in the same Household as Richard/Mary and Children, there is a line that separates Households.
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Will of Richard;
Name: Richard Marchant
Probate Date:3 Apr 1854
Residence: Anchor
So must have died 1853ish;
Gro Index has 2;
J Qtr 1853 Sevenoaks age 68
M Qtr 1854 age 66
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Trish
I have 1841 census from FindMyPast, household living in Charlton Village, Lewisham,, Kent.
The family is:
Richard Marchant age 50 born 1791 in Kent
Mary Marchant age 35 born 1806 in Kent
Maria Marchant age 15 born 1826 in Kent
William Marchant age 13 born 1828 in Kent
Thomas Marchant age 10 born 1831 in Kent
Arthur Marchant age 5 born 1836 in Kent
John Longhurst age 50 born 1791 in Kent
In the 1841 census, none of the household member's occupation was collected so there was nothing there to say what his occupation was at that time. hence my query of him being described as a gardener.
I have 1851 census from Family Search
household living in Charlton Village, Lewisham,, Kent.
The family is:
Richard Marchant age 68 shown as born in Brighton in Sussex(it says Brightling but there is not now nor ever was such a place) in 1783 with the occupation of Victualer Master Licenced Victualler employing one.
Mary Marchant age 48 shown as born in Northiam, Sussex in 1803
Arthur Marchant age 14 shown as born in Charlton, Kent in 1837
Richard's will which describes him as being of the Anchor & Hope Inn in Carlton, and mentions the following children:
Mary Maria Langley, wife of Edward Langley, William Marchant, Thomas Marchant and Arthur James Marchant. - Probate was granted 17/2/1854 in Charlton, Lewisham. Kent
These are obviously the same family despite the inconsistencies and the fact that the 1841 doesn't give Richard's occupation. but that wouldn't help because he wasn't the landlord of the Anchor & Hope in Lewisham until about 1847.
I have found records which show that Mary was the landlord of the Hope and Anchor Inn from 1855 -1858, so she obviously took over after Richard's death.
I have been looking for a marriage for Richard and Mary, and the most likely one I have found is to Mary Harrison at St Bede, Fleet Street, London on 1/1/1818
Clive
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Image on ancestry.
Richard Marchant, widower, married Mary Harrison, widow by banns 4 January 1813 St Bride's Fleet Street. Witness John Wrightman and James Smith
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Coincidence?
William Marchant, gardener, married Ann Allen at St Alphege, Greenwich 13 June 1847
his father Richard Marchant licensed Victualler, her father Thomas Allen, gamekeeper.
William and Ann both signed.
Added in 1871 he is a licensed victualler in Deptford "Compasses"
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Trish
I have 1841 census from FindMyPast, household living in Charlton Village, Lewisham,, Kent.
The family is:
Richard Marchant age 50 born 1791 in Kent
Mary Marchant age 35 born 1806 in Kent
Maria Marchant age 15 born 1826 in Kent
William Marchant age 13 born 1828 in Kent
Thomas Marchant age 10 born 1831 in Kent
Arthur Marchant age 5 born 1836 in Kent
John Longhurst age 50 born 1791 in Kent
In the 1841 census, none of the household member's occupation was collected so there was nothing there to say what his occupation was at that time. hence my query of him being described as a gardener.
But this is the same record that Trish found transcribed as Marchass on Ancestry. It does specify Richard's occupation as gardener - you need to look at the image to see it.
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Thanks for that Christine53.
Yes, Clive, same Census but but Anc is where I got it, Occp definitely Gardner.
John Longhurst is in a separate Household.
1851 John Longhurst is born c 1789 - Shambledon, Surrey, England
RESIDENCE: Charlton, Kent
So 1841 has him born in County but he wasnt.
Trish :)
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I doubt the 1813 Marriage is correct as Mary is born c 1803 in 1851 Census
She wouldnt have been born 1801-1803 and Widowed by 1813!
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Trish, Family Search shows John Longhurst at same address as Richard Marchant in 1841 census (same piece number so in same return), in fact identical information to what I found in FindMyPast.
I have looked in Ancestry, as I don't have any credits with them, I cannot access an image of the actual census.
Family Search has the marriage of Richard & Mary as 4/1/1818 not 1813. In fact this is the only marriage involving Richard Marchant and Mary I have been able to locate
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Direct copy from Familysearch (cut and pasted)
Richard Marchant
England Marriages, 1538–1973
marriage: 4 January 1813 Saint Bride Fleet St , London, London, England
spouse: Mary Harrison
So 1813******
Same as Anc has.
So not your Marriage.
You have been given all this info already;
MARRIAGE;
From the Sussex Marriage Index :
Richard MARCHANT and Mary ASHENDEN 6 Jul 1819 Peasmarsh
CHRISTENING;
From the Transcripts of Sussex Family History Group :
MARY MARIAMaria Marchant 18 May 1823 Peasmarsh , Richard Marchant, gardener, and Mary.
CHRISTENING;
Mary ASHENDEN Christened 11 Oct 1801 Northiam St Mary , John Ashenden & Mary
AS I said, there is a line between Households on 1841 Census so John Longhurst is not in the same House.
I see no connection with him. He is born Surrey and Mary Marchant in Sussex.
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Sorry Trish, can't accept that - 1841 census says Mary, wife of Richard Marchant was 35 at that time, so born in 1806, if you are correct, that Richard's marriage took place in 1819, then she would be aged only 13 at the time of her marriage, requiring consent of her parents, I can't see that being the case. particularly as what you have supplied does not show that this was the case.
This is also why I was reluctant to go with the marriage to Mary Harrison in 1813 as this would have made her only 7.
If you check the 1841 census on FindMyPast you will see that John Longhurst IS at the same address, and shown as born in Kent - I think we must agree to differ on this.
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Please remember that ages were rounded on the 1841 census and are not factual, the date of birth
1806 from 1841 cannot be used as conclusive.
What can be found as conclusive is the will of John Ashenden proven 11 October 1852 he was of Northiam, yeoman. ref PCC wills on ancestry.
Although in 1841 he is listed as an ag. lab, in 1851 he is a retired farm bailiff with enough property and funds to have his will proven in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury.
He names his wife Elizabeth (first wife Mary being deceased), daughter Elizabeth Roots wife of Charles Roots, daughter MARY MARCHANT wife of Richard Marchant, son Thomas? writing is hard to read, and son James.
In a codicil he states his daughter MARY MARCHANT wife of RICHARD MARCHANT , VICTUALLER OF CHARLTON etc. etc.
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Thank you amondg ;D.
1851 Mary Marchant is down as born c 1803 Northam, Sussex, only a couple of years out from Baptism found.
Marriage;
Charles Rootes
England Marriages, 1538–1973
18 February 1822, Biddenden, Kent, England
spouse: Elizabeth Ashenden
I rest my case.
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amondg I am well aware of that in general the age shown on the census is the earliest of the five year range, however I was interested in the information you supplied concerning the will of John Ashenden proven 11 October 1852, I have not seen this document previously and no one has raised it as proof of their position, this may well be the PROOF that the Mary wife of Richard Marchant was Mary Ashenden, but I would like to read the document itself before I commit myself to accepting it.
Clive
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Hi Clive,
Your local Library may have access to Anc to read the Will.
John ASHENDEN Married Mary SINNOCK, 3 March 1799 Northiam, Sussex
(F/S.Org)
John was Christened 11 September 1774, Northiam to JAMES/MARY Ashenden
(F/S.Org)
Good luck with it all.
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It's on ancestry.
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Ordered it from TNA but they sent me the wrong one, awaiting a reply from them.
As far as I know, NZ libraries don't supply access to Ancestry.
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Sorry I forgot you were likely in NZ (where I was born and grew up)
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Well I got the will of John Ashendon from the National Archives, it says he is from (or at least living in) Essex and it does refer to his daughter Mary Maria wife of Richard Marchant, unless there was more than one Mary Maria Marchant around at the time, this is fairly good proof and the link I was looking.
for. before accepting Mary Ashenden as his spouse
Also included with the papers sent, was the will of Hannah Marchant, widow of Richard Robert ? (I can't read the surname).
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Excellent :)