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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: abbey2 on Monday 23 August 10 07:49 BST (UK)
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Hi List,
I am struggling to even get started on my late fathers side and need some help.
My late father Pierre DE MONTI was born in July 1935 and lived in or around London as a small child and then moved to Westmorland in 1959. We have never been able to find a birth registration even though he always said he was born in London.
Since his death we have tried to unravel the mystery. It looks as though he was at one time in Essex, as we found him on the 1939 Registration in Pitsea, called David E MONTGOMERY, living with Cecilia MONTGOMERY. Cecilia also called herself DE MONTI so that probably explains the name. But we don't think she was his mother. We have found that Cecilia also fostered children.
My father was born in July 1935, but a check of the GRO Birth index has drawn a blank under DE MONTI or MONTGOMERY.
We now wonder if he was adopted. Is anyone able to check the GRO Adoption Index to see if there is an entry for David E MONTGOMERY or Pierre DE MONTI for the period between 1935 and probably 1939?
Any help or advice greatly appreciated.
Lynn
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Hi Lynn
Welcome to Rootschat. I am sure that there are lots of people here who will be able to help you out.
Firstly though, do you have a copy of Pierre's marriage certificate?? I can see him in the 3rdQtr 1961 in Westmorland to Beryl BEETHAM.
Cheers
Karenlee
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It looks as though he was at one time in Essex, as we found him on the 1939 Registration in Pitsea, called David E MONTGOMERY, living with Cecilia MONTGOMERY.
What is this you found him on?
As he would only be age 4 it cant be an electoral register - but I am struggling to think what it could be!
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Thanks for the replies. Yes, I do have a copy of the marrige certificate. The reference to 1939 is from the records of the 1939 National Registration which was a record of the civilian population as at 29th September 1939. The information gathered was used to provide ID cards for people during the war. Everyone was given a number. These numbers were later used as original NHS numbers. Based on my father's old NHS number we asked for a search to be made, the result of which revealed his address in 1939 also his name at that time.
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On his marriage certificate what does he give and the name and occupation of his father?
regards panda
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Hi Lynn, i was also going to ask what Panda has asked but with the additional information of address at time of marriage and witnesses names as these can often be relations.
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Hi
Where does this old query fit in?
"I am asking for a bit of help. On the death certificate of Glorie Cecilia
De MONTI MONTGOMERY in 1967, age 75, in Bournemouth, the death was
registered by what looks like A E M De MONTI MONTGOMERY. This person gave
an address of 701 Endsleigh Court, Upper Woburn Place, London WC1.
I am trying to trace 2 sisters who in 1935 were living in Pitsea, Essex and
may have moved. Can anyone tell me where the electoral rolls would be held
that cover Upper Woburn Place, London WC1, and if possible if someone could
have a look for me, that would be wonderful. I am trying to discover who A
E M De MONTI MONTGOMERY was and figure out their relationship to Glorie
Cecilia. Sadly the death certificate does not state the full name or
relationship and only states that they caused the body to be buried."
Regards
Ray
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i know this is difficult but if you know where he was living at the age of 5 then he should have been at school.
i suggest finding the nearest school to his address and looking at the school log book, this may either be still at the school or the local RO, in which case you could drop them an email if you are not int he vicinity, it doesn't hurt to ask and the worse they can say is no.
The school log books may be able to tell you more about the children and father.
School log books:
School Records / School Log Books
1870-Current Day (although 100 year rule applies) School registers provide pupils names, date of birth, addresses, fathers names and fathers occupation and years of attendance if they left to go to another school this would also be noted. Some have a brief explanation about the family.
School Log Books were filled in weekly by the head teacher give attendance figures and note extraordinary events.
From 1862 statutory admission and discharge registers began to be kept by the head teachers of schools receiving government funding, you will discover that many of these commence only in 1880 when schooling became compulsory betwixt the ages of 5 and ten, though local districts could make it from 1870.
School attendance registers were compiled by local education authorities after 1875 these disclose similar information as well as the placement of youngsters in schools throughout the county.
The particulars registered concerning the deaths and births of children submitted to the local education authority (LEA) by the district registrars record the date and place of each event the child’s name, sex his or her fathers name and the description and abode of the informant
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Thanks for all your replies. I will try to answer all the questions raised. The marriage certificate doesn't help I'm afraid. There is no father and the witnesses were friends, not related. His address was very close to where the marriage took place. In relation to an old query re Glorie Cecilia & AEM De Monti Montgomery, we had found this death reg and the names seemed too coincidental to ignore. We were trying to find any information that may help identify who brought my Dad up. We are trying to find out which school/s he may have attended. We know that he was taught at home until the age of 9 or 10. Of course this is made more difficult because we don't know when the change of name occured. As we believe he was either fostered or adopted we need to try and find out his real birth name to try and get any further back.
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what was his occupation?
Westmorland street directories might help you know the address from his marriage cert. you can work backwards from there to see when he moved to Westmorland.
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what you are saying is on the WW2 national registration taken on 29th Sept 1939 he appears in Pitsea under the name of David E Montgomery with Cecilia Montgomery
this is slightly confusing in itself
why would he as a 4 year old child be living under an assumed name? unless of course he had been adopted
official adoption took place after 1927 as Pierre was born in 1935 it could be he was offically adopted, have you contacted the relevant government department re adoption?
could the name De Monti have been anglicised to Montgomery? but then would he have married under Montgomery an not De Monti?
what happened to Cecilia and David? have you followed these people to see if David and Pierre are the same person?
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We know roughly when he moved to Westmorland. What we don't know is how or why he came to be with Cecilia in Essex. It seems that we need to check the Adoption Register Index to see if he was formally adopted but there are very few places where this is available and none near us. We now know that Cecilia died in 1967. I'm sure David and Pierre were one and the same as they had the same date of birth and National Health number. Under the Freedom of Information Act they will only release details of deceased persons from the 1939 register and as far as I understand, they cross reference NHS numbers to check that someone is deceased before releasing any information.
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I wonder if this is linked
Marriage
Oct/Nov/Dec 1898
Huddersfield
9a 655
James Graham De M Montgomery
to either Harriet Lee or Janet Lunn
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Interesting!
I'll throw another "could this be linked?" thing in for the pot:
Birth, Jun qtr 1870
James De Montmorenci Montgomery
Tamworth 6b 414
[Hmmm... he died Dec qtr 1871 Tamworth aged 1]
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Birth, Dec qtr 1899
Doris de Montmorency Montgomery
Huddersfield 9a 335
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We now know that Cecilia died in 1967.
Has a search been made for Cecilia's will (if any)?
(And was AEM de Monti Montgomery ever traced?)
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I am trying to trace 2 sisters who in 1935 were living in Pitsea, Essex and
may have moved.
Who were the 2 sisters? Presumably "Cecilia" was one of them - do you have name of a sister of hers?
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Many thanks for your "could this be linked" suggestions, however having hit a "brick wall" with my Dad I have been doing a bit of research into Cecilia. I don't want to detract from the original purpose of this topic but just to give you a bit of info on her, I have found her birth in Scotland in 1892. She was the third of four children with an older sister Mary, a brother Edward and a younger sister Elizabeth. She was actually named Annie Cecilia Montgomery. She was a witness at her older sisters wedding in 1916 and still called Annie Cecilia, but at some point after that she changed her name to Glorie Cecilia De Monti. I have checked marriages in England/Wales and Scotland but nothing has come up. I have had a researcher at Essex records office checking the Electoral Registers and she has been found in Pitsea from 1930-39 under the name of Glorie De Monti yet on the 1939 National Registration she reverts to Cecilia Montgomery. We know it's the same person because of the address (and date of birth on the 1939) also during the 1930's her sister Elizabeth and brother Edward variously lived at the same address or next door. We have checked for a will/probate for Cecilia with no luck.
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Maybe she reverted to Cecilia Montgomery because she didn't want a name that sounded "foreign" during the war years?
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Hi avm 228,
No, AEM has not been traced. Someone did kindly check the Electoral Register for Upper Woburn Place, but the people there had a completely different name, no sign of AEM and those initials don't fit with any of the now known family members of Cecilia.
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So - it seems that when Annie/Cecilia/Glorie de Monti/Montgomery gave birth to/looked after/fostered/adopted Pierre/David de Monti/Montgomery
she was still single. And in fact as you have her death too, she never married.
At least that is one thing straight!
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That pretty much sums it up ;D So now you can see why we need help ??? The GRO Adoption index is only available in a few places including The British Library, London Met, Westminster Archives as well as Manchester and Plymouth. We don't live near any of them. :-[ So if anyone is going and have the time to look at the register for the period after July 1935 it might help us out immensely. Our best guess is that the adopted name would be DE MONTI or MONTGOMERY.
Thanks for your help,
Lynn
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I would think official adoption is very unlikely as she was unmarried. It is only in more recent years that single people have been considered appropiate to adopt.
As Pierre gives no father on his marriage cert (if adopted, he would likely give his adopted father) this, I think, does indicate that it is unlikely that he was officially adopted by Cecilia or anyone.
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We know it's the same person because of the address (and date of birth on the 1939) also during the 1930's her sister Elizabeth and brother Edward variously lived at the same address or next door.
Do Edward and Elizabeth use a variety of names, or are they consistantly Montgomery?
Do we know Cecilia/Glories occupation? I wonder if she was a singer / actress/ and de Monti was a stage name? Not that Pitsea is really a centre for entertainment arts ..... ;D
IF that was the case, what on earth could she have been doing that involved her son (natural, adopted, fostered, whatever) so that he too had a stage name Pierre de Monti, as well as natural name David Montgomery.
Do you know what your late father did for a living?
Another thought - have you checked Scotland for his birth? If that is where her family came from (if he is Cecilia/Glorie's child) ahe may have gone home for the actual birth.
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Thanks for your replies. While I agree that it is unlikely single women adopted, we wondered if Glorie/Cecilia did marry, but not in the UK and was therefore a widow. We know she was using the name MONTGOMERY in 1916. She may have spent time in France/Belgium during the war, and could have met and married over there. Her husband if she married was probably killed. So by the time she returned to the UK she may have been a widow. (The name DE MONTI is very rare in the UK, but more common in northern France/Belgium.) We do know she was using the name DE MONTI in 1929/30 on the voters roll for Pitsea. She also named another child in her care DE MONTI, born 1930, but we know she was definitely NOT the mother. We have been in contact with this person, and there are differences in how they were treated. This is why we wondered if Pierre was adopted. But he just as easily could have been fostered. We have checked the births for Scotland and drew a blank.
Edward and Elizabeth consistantly used the name MONTGOMERY as far as we can tell. Glorie listed her occupation as a Private Governess/Teacher. Checking the adoption register is more about not leaving stones unturned, but it would be good to rule it out.
Lynn
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The first thing I thought of when I read your post was that even though he SAID he was born in London, may he have been born abroad?
....My late father Pierre DE MONTI was born in July 1935 and lived in or around London as a small child and then moved to Westmorland in 1959. We have never been able to find a birth registration even though he always said he was born in London.....
Lynn
Now you have mentioned a possible connection with France or Belgium, I wonder if it would be worth trying to search for him in these countries?
I don't envy you as this is SO difficult but I wish you luck. You already seem to have been quite thorough in your search but is there anyone at all still alive who may be able to shed any light on this mystery, no matter how small - even a passing comment that would normally be dismissed? The other De Monti child b 1930 perhaps? Any old neighbours/friends? :-\
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Hi Ruskie,
We are in contact with another person who we know was fostered by Glorie DE MONTI/MONTGOMERY. He has been very helpful, but due to age, his memory is limited. Even so we were able to establish that Glorie took in children. We have no evidence of Glorie actually going to France/Belgium, it is only a guess as we have researched the name DE MONTI in this country and as far as we can in Europe. From that research we have established that the surname DE MONTI is VERY rare in this country, but not quite so in northern France/Belgium. As many women went to France during WW1 to assist in the war effort it seemed possible that if she had married, it could have been there. But we can find no record. We know from this research that Pierre was given the name DE MONTI by Glorie, and was not his birth name. We don't know when she and her siblings moved to the Essex area, but we know they were living there in 1929/30 when the voters roll was prepared. Pierre in his passport gave his place of birth as London. We have checked with the Passport Office, but information was limited. We have his Army records, along with his NI records. So far we have been able to build up a picture from about the age of 4 but no earlier. The only thing we haven't checked is the GRO Adoption Index, but these are only available in limited places and we don't live anywhere near any of them. That's why we are asking if someone who is going to any of the locations could have a look for us. But we keep looking :)
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it is my understanding that the GRO hold an index for adopted children, when they are given a new identity they are reregistred have you contacted the GRo and asked them for a check for Davie and Pierre?
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Hi Toni,
Yes the GRO do hold an index, but in order to apply to the GRO for an Adoption Certificate we need a reference. That's why we posted. The Index is only available in a few limited places for the public to check. So we were hoping someone who was going to The London Met, British libary or the City of westminster Archives could have a look and see if there was a David E Montgomery or David E / Pierre De Monti listed.
Thanks again,
Lynn
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can they not look if you ring them and ask them?
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I don't know if they would do that but we can give it a try,
Thanks
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What's baffling me is why, if she 'adopted' (either formerly or otherwise) this child and gave him the name Pierre De Monti, did she then call him David Montgomery?
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Liz i am confused as you but wondered if one was the 'real' name and the other the adopted name
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That is why I am confused! If Glorie/Cecilia's real name was Montgomery, and this child wasnt hers, then his birth name is unlikely to be Montgomery - too much of a coincidence. And if she gave him the name Pierre de Monti then that wont be his birth name either. Very unlikely, as she gave the name De Monti to another child too. So if neither are his birth name, why did she use a different name for him in the 1930's than for all the rest of his life? Maybe we can understand her dropping the De Monti and using her real name of Montgomery, and using it for the child too. De Monti sounds Italian and Italians were not popular during the war. But why David? Why not Peter, or stick with Pierre which sounds French and shouldnt have caused any problems.
In the 1939 register what surname is the other child using (the one born 1930 that you mention, who was also brought up as a De Monti)
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We don't know the names of the other children as they will only release the names of those who are known to be dead. We do know and are in touch with an older boy who was fostered, and his real name is not connected, as we have extensively researched that line of enquiry. It was only when we got the results of our FOI enquiry to the NHS that we discovered the name David. But who knows why she changed the names, and which one is real. Until we can discover a birth registration we won't know for sure. Our best guess is that David is the real name, as the E in David E we know from the NI registration stood for Eric. Not exactly french. But MONTGOMERY or DE MONTI are very UNLIKELY to be his birth name. But there are over 120 David E's in the Sep 1935 GRO Birth Index. Until we win the lottery getting all the birth certificates is out of our reach. All that we have left is to check and hope there is an adoption registered. Hopefully someone who is going to one of the archives will have a look for us.
But thanks for all your help.
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I don't live anywhere near the offices where the adoption register index is held, so I can't help there but here are a few thoughts;
Pierre and David Eric are such different names that I'm wondering if one of the children in Cecelia's care died and the registration number somehow got transferred to another child eg from David E who died to Pierre. It may be worth checking 1935-1939 deaths in Pitsea for any clues.
Regarding the 120+ births of David E's - you will surely find some died young or married under their birth names or died as older adults , which will cut down the number of possibles who could be your father - a tedious job to go through them though.
Have you looked on Ancestry's list of old phone books to see if you can follow Cecilia's movements, or looked in old street directories,working back from Pitsea.
and finally, I wonder how Cecilia "came by" her children. Did she advertise in the paper or have some contact through the church (the names suggest a Catholic connection possibly). I wonder whether the local record office in Essex could throw any light on this?
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Electorlal Roll for 1929 is online on the SEAX site - but I cant see any Montgomery or de Monti there
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Thanks Lizdb. The first we found her on was the 1930.